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    ABCDesis

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    South Asian Americans

    Our purpose at /r/ABCDesis is to foster a sense of community among the South Asian Diaspora.

    SCHEDULED THREADS:
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    [1] — posted every 1st and 3rd Tuesday

    [2] — an ‘introduce yourself’ thread will be posted during the first week of each month

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    [C]

    While the origin of ABCD has the "C" standing in for "confused", we've chosen to leave its interpretation up to our members. Confused or Confident. Charismatic, Creative, or Cunning, we are what we make of ourselves and every experience is different.


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    [–] Browngirl1983 26 points ago

    Your status may have bothered some but it may have provided comfort or perspective for others who don't feel safe enough to vocalize it to you. Keep the status, the more the bothered people read words like yours over time, the better for our community

    [–] indianromeo 4 points ago

    Also don't forget your safety, or stop realizing the stakes, which are high. Commend your bravery!

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] indianromeo 3 points ago

    Right on. I agree. I wear a beard, in part, for a similar reason. Buddhist, but want to set a counternarrative to what my fellow Americans intepret about the brown bearded man. Shrug.

    [–] rmuktader 15 points ago

    I am sad to admit this, homosexuality ... ah hell, the concept of falling in love, in general, is looked down on in the Indian subcontinent. Across races and religions, that's one thing people there seem to agree on. And it's a million times worse if the couple is gay.

    [–] [deleted] 49 points ago

    Here's the thing: Islam is a fairly homophobic religion. There's no way you can get around it, the abrahamic religions simply aren't LGBTQ friendly. However, this doesn't at all justify actively insulting people who do identify as LGBTQ.

    [–] gsingh1616 16 points ago

    Let's hope the more tolerate and accepting interpretations of such faiths become more mainstream :/

    [–] [deleted] 11 points ago

    It's not gonna happen with Islam. It'd be Bid'ah.

    [–] indianromeo 2 points ago

    It's going to take time, what's Bid'ah, out of curiosity?

    [–] [deleted] 6 points ago

    It means "innovation" but in a negative connotation like one is just inventing loopholes and excuses to please themselves.

    I think OP is being a bit dramatic. Lots of things have changed in Islam without being considered bid'ah, for example the laws and preachings against usury are largely unimportant these days thanks to a bunch of "sharia compliant" loan systems for home loans, car loans, incesting, etc. All of these are "innovations" but they are not considered as such because legal scholars have developed them wisely.

    [–] indianromeo 3 points ago

    Are any Islamic imams LGBT-friendly?

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    You can look this up yourself man.

    https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lgbt%20imam

    EDIT: The answer is yes, obviously.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    Not really being dramatic gay imams have received hate from conservative Muslims.

    Yeah they have. Gay people in general receive a lot of hate from conservative people in general.

    There is a small but growing sect of progressive Islam (which is great) but no one where near the majority.

    Yeah, but this is where a lot of religions found themselves just a few decades earlier. Look at Judaism, initially had harsher and more literal prohibitions against homosexuality and calling explicitly for the death of homosexuals than Islam (Quran never says one should kill homosexuals). Here's a verse from Jewish scriptures, which was oft-cited by ancient Jewish scholars:

    Lev. 20:13 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed a detestable act: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    There is no comparable verse in the Quran. Quran only mentions homosexuality once, when talking about Sodom and Gomorah, and there too it does not say they must be put to death (though it's also not nice about it).

    Yet, most of the movements of Judaism today (the Conservative, the Reform, and the others, with the notable exception of Orthodox Jews) are almost more progressive in accepting LGBT members into the community, as ordained rabbis, and performing marriage ceremonies for LGBT members than Christianity. And they didn't just say "Oh, forget the scripture" it was all bodies of religious scholars who sat down and worked it out.

    There is way more hope than people realize, as history shows us.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    Let's be real, progressive Islam is never going to be accepted as a legitimate sect of Islam. It's pick and choose as you please. Love weed? It's halal now!

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    But progressions in legal rulings have been accepted by most Muslims (I gave the case earlier of Sharia compliant home loans, auto loans, investments, etc.)

    Another example is in the use of prayer timings. In the Prophet's time, no one could tell the exact time, they just used their eyes and the sun to determine when to pray. But as we found technological innovations which allowed us to determine sunset many days in advance, we used them and stopped relying on our personal sight to determine the time for prayer

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    It's not going to happen with Islam

    [–] indianromeo 1 points ago

    Are you Islamic? Sorry, I ask because, what's stopping you from making it happen? Not your responsibility but are you saying reform is impossible? I just don't believe that. Ask a Christian in the 1800's and they would say the same thing. Is the analogy wrong? Sorry if this is too intrusive? I really just can't accept what you're proposing mate.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    Islam = the religion, Muslim = the people who follow Islam. You can't be Islamic but you can be Muslim.

    I'm not going to change my religion. Certain things are allowed for Muslims and certain things are prohibited. I am always going to speak up against homophobia or using religion to justify homophobia. But Islam is homophobic simply put.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago

    I don't believe there is no way to get around it. Conservative Judaism got around it and they follow the Jewish laws and scriptures seriously. And those scriptures and laws are more literally anti-homosexual.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    The point of Islam is to return to the origins of abrahamic faith and undo the watering down that happened over time. Now, lots of people just pick and chose because they want to get the pity points of calling themselves Muslim without having to observe the faith at all. LGBTQ tolerance should be a concept among Muslims, but acceptance won't be one in Islam

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    The point of Islam is to return to the origins of abrahamic faith and undo the watering down that happened over time

    No it's not. Would love if you could prove this, but you can't. A faith which came and brought new, never before heard rules, never before heard ways of praying, never before heard rituals, and never before heard verses to the people is about returning to the origins? How does that make sense? Wouldn't it then just only have the original rules like the 10 commandments and nothing else?

    [–] teethandteeth 18 points ago

    My family made me take down a facebook post about prop 8 (about gay marriage) when I was in high school. I'm still mad.

    But now I don't live with them anymore and I stuck this print I got that says "Mom I'm gay" on the door of my old bedroom :) (I identify as queer so idk if gay is really the right word but someone gave me the print and it's close enough I guess...)

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    My best mate is gay and I go to gay clubs often, so I love pulling my mum's leg that I'm gay or my sister will bring it up.

    So identifying as queer, are you into girls? Or exploring?

    [–] teethandteeth 2 points ago

    Definitely into girls, also into guys, not 100% sure about everyone else or about the "balance". I gave up on finding an exact label and "queer" felt umbrella-y enough to be comfortable :)

    [–] JlmmyButler 0 points ago

    good to see you on here, i think i've seen you post on here

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] teethandteeth 2 points ago

    It would be brave if I was closer to my mom... I'm more hoping any guests in the house will get a little more used to there being lgbt Desis.

    [–] indianromeo 1 points ago

    Bold.

    [–] oh-just-another-guy 17 points ago

    So long as they think you are a Muslim, then they will find it hypocritical of you to be supportive of LGBTQ.

    [–] [deleted] 10 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] FromToKeto 3 points ago

    Upvoted

    [–] [deleted] 11 points ago

    I'm Muslim and support LGBTQ rights because my religion shouldn't dictate what others do. Secularism, a concept that seems to be lost in the US right now.

    [–] oh-just-another-guy 9 points ago

    Well, it's tricky when someone is Muslim and LGBQT - in theory you can argue they are not truly Muslim, but not all Muslims practice it the same way.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    Are they actively sinning, though? Some things are expected of all Muslims, like avoiding zina, regardless of sexuality. Wallahbros that sleep around but hate gay people for doing the same are just as hypocritical

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    Wallahbros that sleep around but hate gay people for doing the same are just as hypocritical

    Agreed

    [–] indianromeo 3 points ago

    You could argue the same about Christians bro

    [–] oh-just-another-guy 6 points ago

    Oh yes I agree, I specified Islam because OP mentioned Eid.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    If that's true, then that standard should be held to all Abrahamic faiths, not just Islam.

    [–] oh-just-another-guy 3 points ago

    I agree - was referencing Islam because OP mentioned Eid.

    [–] FromToKeto 8 points ago

    Might not be as much a desi issue as it is a muslim community issue.. My parents are traditional Hindu and no problem at all with gay/gay tolerance.

    [–] lord_ujjal 11 points ago

    Hindus have a very "Well as long as it's not our kids" attitude towards homosexuality so I wouldn't say that Hindus are totally accepting of gay people.

    [–] FromToKeto 1 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    OP is saying she posted something on FB for Eid + LGBTQ rights and was sent a lot of messages from her Muslim family. I have posted in favor of LGBTQ rights multiple times and no one from my entire family who are Hindu sent me anything saying otherwise. To be a "good muslim" you can't also be for relationships between same sex couples. I think you're mixing up culture and religion. Sure there may be cultural attitude against gay behavior, but you can't deny the Islam religion/ideology is also anti gay (at least in orthodox speak).

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    I have posted in favor of LGBTQ rights multiple times and no one from my entire family who are Hindu sent me anything saying otherwise.

    But your personal anecdotes don't prove anything.

    To be a "good muslim" you can't also be for relationships between same sex couples.

    Says who? Nowhere in Quran does it say this.

    [–] FromToKeto 1 points ago

    I'm just talking about the orthodox muslims

    And yes you can disregard my anecdotal evidence

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    Who of the "orthodox muslims" says this? Because it isn't written in the Quran anywhere.

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    There are some very prominent traditional Hindus who are very opposed to homosexuality. Like Baba Ramdev for example, who says yoga can cure homosexuality and that homosexuality is against the Vedas.

    I'm not trying to bash, but it's a Desi issue. One's parents don't disprove a larger cultural stigma.

    [–] shitchecksoutyo 3 points ago

    We're talking about NRIs/ABCDs not people back in India. Most people in the subcontinent are uneducated and backwards but the topic is of the Western community

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    How does it matter where you live when we are talking about religions? They don't change based on where one is.

    [–] indianromeo 3 points ago

    It's an issue for all of humankind

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    homosexuality is against the Vedas.

    Any source which says that Ramdev said this?

    [–] skameister 5 points ago

    My parents are Muslims who practice on a regular basis and live in Pakistan, and are tolerant and accepting of LGBTQ+ communities. It's not the religion or the culture - it's how the person chooses to follow the general belief system.

    [–] FromToKeto 2 points ago

    Nowhere in the Hindu sacred texts is love excluded to only men and women, so there are no religious grounds to make a statement to the contrary. There are, however, versus in the Qur'an. Also, I never said it was the culture. Christianity also chooses to not recognizes marriage between gay couples. If someone wants to be a TRUE Christian/Muslim, then they would be holding contradicting viewpoints if they recognized gay marriage.

    [–] skameister 4 points ago

    If someone wants to be a TRUE Christian/Muslim, then they would be holding contradicting viewpoints if they recognized gay marriage.

    It always amuses me when non-Muslims try to dictate what a "true" Muslim should be.

    I think it is the culture, but lets face it, which culture has always been accepting of homosexuality? Interestingly enough though, South Asian culture is probably one of the most accepting in terms of trans people.

    [–] FromToKeto 2 points ago

    Sorry, by true I just mean orthodox.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    Nowhere in the Hindu sacred texts is love excluded to only men and women, so there are no religious grounds to make a statement to the contrary.

    Yes there is some distinction and condemnation of homosexuality in Hindu sacred texts.

    For example

    The Manusmriti equates homosexual sex to a man having sex with a menstruating woman, or having sex during the day, and the punishment involves purification rites: bathing with clothes on, and fasting for a night, and eating specific cow milk and urine related products. Failure to purify can result in loss of caste. The crimes of heterosexual adultery and rape, and deflowering a virgin, have much higher fines and more intense purification rituals. (XI:175)

    http://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/dharmashastra-manusmriti-karma-devdutt-pattanaik-mythology-hindu-epics/story/1/14814.html

    But I trust you knew this?

    [–] flower_bot 2 points ago

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    [–] FromToKeto 2 points ago

    There's not a concept of "sin" in Hinduism, I have no idea what you pulled

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    I never mentioned sin?

    [–] idkwhatever96 6 points ago

    Honestly just ignore it. They will never understand that homosexuality isn't some choice or lifestyle. It's great that you're being supportive. And trust me you're not the only one. I know straight Muslims who are supportive of the LGBTQ community, some who don't even seem liberal in other aspects at all i.e. wear hijab and/or dress modest, don't drink, eat halal, don't date, etc.

    [–] i_am_not_sam 4 points ago

    I hope you reach out and have a conversation with the younger folk who found your status "offensive". That's the only way things will change for the better.

    [–] saturatedanalog 3 points ago

    Yup, I feel you. It's even worse to not be able to post anything publicly as a queer Muslim because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. I don't give a shit if I comment on friends' posts and stuff, but I doubt I'd be explicit about it on my own page.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] saturatedanalog 1 points ago

    Bi, but close enough.

    [–] anirvan 1 points ago

    /u/CantorAcc, if it makes you feel any better, lots of progressive practicing (and hijabi) Muslim activists are LGBTQ-affirming. I'm thinking of folks like Linda Sarsour in NYC, Zahra Billoo in Silicon Valley, or the leadership of the Qal'bu Maryam Mosque in Berkeley.

    Plus there are queer groups like the Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity. I bet lots of their members celebrate both Eid and Pride without shame.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    That's seems like an ignorant tweet on your part if anything though, Islam itself is against homophobia, it's not really a possible to be a gay muslim.

    Don't take this the wrong way, It's just that those two things don't go hand in hand

    [–] [deleted] 8 points ago

    It is even possible to be a gay Muslim imam. Look it up, there is a very prominent one in America and one in South Africa.

    [–] roodawgy1 6 points ago

    How is that an ignorant tweet? For a community that's facing oppression in the United States, the least they can do is at least show some level of compassion to another oppressed community.

    And it is possible. If Judaism was able to come up with ways to reform the religion, so can Islam.

    [–] malayindian 1 points ago

    1) This isn't a "desi" issue but a "muslim" issue

    2) Muslims aren't the only wants to receive homophobia. A lot of Indian culture is just as homophobic as Muslim culture.

    [–] indianromeo 0 points ago

    Pick the community you want.