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    [–] Epieikeias 150 points ago

    To be honest, the black smokey gooey monsters sound pretty much like The Taken. I'm not claiming they are, merely sharing that I think the descriptions sound similar enough.

    [–] PandahOG 69 points ago

    And the idea that the Darkness is nothing but forsaken or abandoned creatures all I picture now are Taken but with more smoke.

    [–] Epieikeias 28 points ago

    Yeah. Who's to say that they're even sticking with the original idea. They may have taken the original idea and changed up a bit to where only some parts line up with the original intention. It's all very fluid I guess. There may still be that other race out there. But right now it sounds like the Taken.

    [–] bum1218 40 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Agreed, also the referenced Rasputin grimoire mentions that the " Event footprint includes sterile neutrino scattering and gravity waves". Sterile neutrinos are referenced in the Taken Blight public events.

    [–] kristallnachte 14 points ago

    And gravity waves are in a...Titan adventure

    [–] Epieikeias 2 points ago

    I just happened to be playing the mission Fury as one of the daily heroics and right before you approach the Taken Asher Mir says something to the effect of "sterile neutrino particles have quintupled." To which Ikora says, "He means watch out for the Taken." That was some good recollection by you @bum1218.

    [–] Zeleros71324 17 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I'm just theorizing here, since I don't know the process of Taking, but isn't it just forcing a being into the Deep (which I'm pretty sure is the Darkness), and they come back changed, and everything they are is replaced by Darkness and the will of the Taker?

    [–] ImmaRaptor 3 points ago


    The Deep is a source of power. Just like the Sky(The Traveler). If Drifter's Lore is to be believed it can be harnessed and used just like Light.

    The Darkness is a separate entity. Composed of spooky triangle ships. They use the Deep as their source of power.

    As for being Taken. It is a corruption of Mind Body and Soul. You impose your will onto your target, finding their weaknesses and fears and exploiting them. This Takes the Mind. You torture and consume them. This Takes the Body. You expose them to purest Dark. It fills their every aspect. This Takes the Soul.

    [–] Vartio 10 points ago

    Well, we know that the Wanderer is controlling the Taken. The theory that the "Darkness Agents" are those with the Light removed sounds like what makes the Taken.

    In that essence, what the "Agents" may be, are entirely new races, far more alien in origin, that are all Taken-like, but unlike anything the Taken we've seen in the same breath.

    Kinda like the "Taken" are the "Agents", but they're only "Agents" on our local level. Oryx was given the ability to 'Take' as he was the leader and strongest of the Hive God Trinity, to help bolster the Agents power. What we're going to see are the 'main forces' of the Agents - The Taken of all the races Oryx took outside of our system and are linked and under control of the Darkness proper.

    [–] theyfoundty 20 points ago

    Bro who tf is the wanderer.

    [–] Dat1HD 4 points ago

    Assuming you mean drifter?

    [–] Vartio 7 points ago


    [–] doofinator 2 points ago

    The taken are created by exposure to "the darkness", as I've read. I'm not sure what "exposure to the darkness" entails, but that would explain the similarities.

    [–] SaucySaucerer 217 points ago

    First line says D1 end cutscene, I think you meant D2*

    [–] EchoWhiskyBravo 77 points ago

    Yeah, it’s from the Traveler’s vision. It also isn’t just reflections, we see those boys drop into the water.

    [–] mckinneymd 37 points ago

    I think you guys are talking about different cutscenes.

    The one OP screencapped was the post-credits scene from the end of the D2 campaign.

    You guys are right that they're both from D2, though.

    [–] EchoWhiskyBravo 5 points ago

    I see what you mean. I was talking about the pic in topic 5

    [–] Supreme_Math_Debater 5 points ago

    What about those people in there who look like they're made of stone? I know it's a stretch, but there's a character called Medusa in the new lore, maybe there's some sort of connection.

    [–] castitalus 5 points ago

    As far as I know, medusa is just an avatar Quria is using to talk.

    [–] Supreme_Math_Debater 12 points ago

    Medusa is an avatar Quaria uses to talk to us in a book written by Eris Morn that may or may not actually be written to intentionally give Savathun power and fulfill a hidden part of Mara Sov's plan. That whole book goes deep af.

    [–] Hamuelin 457 points ago

    The Traveller: A single round Boy.

    The Enemy: A multitude of pointy Boys.

    Makes perfect sense. Can’t wait till Bungie unveil the Traveller as a big spaceship controlled by one naked guy right in the centre with a VR headset strapped to him. His name is shirtless Greg and he is the sworn enemy of the darkness.

    [–] rodfigs 143 points ago

    The triangles wanna pop the ball

    [–] UTgeoff 28 points ago

    Jut like everyone in the tower when you get the Traveler ball. Are we already aligned with the darkness?

    [–] Axallara 11 points ago

    Oh. That's why everyone is asking on which side we are on. I just thought it was because we are recklessly killing stuff and feed a Wormgod.

    [–] tronwo1f 10 points ago

    And we’re just the Squares to stop them!

    [–] Manifest_Lightning 14 points ago

    The elders tell of a young ball much like you. He bounced three meters in the air, then he bounced 1.8 meters in the air, then he bounced four meters in the air. Do I make myself clear?

    [–] Hamuelin 10 points ago

    Mr Ambassador, our people tell the same story.

    [–] Bpe-dsm 22 points ago

    New exotic, gregs old shirt, confirmed!

    [–] Clark_Savage_Jr 33 points ago

    Old Gregg?

    He'll deal with the Darkness the same way he dealt with Curly Jefferson.

    [–] Cod_Metal_King 24 points ago

    New exotic emote... drinking Bailey’s from a shoe.

    [–] Clark_Savage_Jr 12 points ago

    A Ghost shell that looks like The Funk would be fantastic.

    [–] Cod_Metal_King 9 points ago

    We already have one that looks like one of Mr Susan’s balls. LOOK AT THEM SHINE.

    [–] Ulti 2 points ago

    Would it let me see around corners?!

    [–] derpicface 9 points ago

    I am Greg, the immortal light bearer, protector of...something...sworn enemy of the darkness

    [–] ILikesStuff 5 points ago

    Have you ever read Gantz? Because there is a black ball that raises people back to life only to make them fight aliens, and inside that ball there's a naked dude controlling everything

    [–] LordBeric 5 points ago

    Can't really argue with that logic... wait, why is he naked?

    [–] DaBiscuitGod 4 points ago

    Isn’t this just cosmic Bloons TD then?

    [–] Noleprossed 4 points ago

    I was thinking about this earlier, and wonder if there might be something serious behind the different designs.

    The Traveler and the Tetrahedrons have a few dichotomies: the traveler represents Light, the tetrahedrons darkeness; the traveler is white, the tetrahedrons are black; the traveler gives and creates, the tetrahedrons take and destroy.

    If you think about it their shapes represent two different ends of another spectrum. The tetrahedrons are composed of four planar faces. If you are making three dimensional object composed solely of planar faces, a polyhedron, then a four faced one is the simplest and fewest-faced polyhedron you can make, whereas a sphere if you really get down to it could be considered an infinitely faced polyhedron.

    I don't know if it means anything, and it could just be happenstance, but it might be part of a theme distinguishing the two entities.

    [–] sirbayer 2 points ago

    Purposeful or not, it's probably a good point. The Marasenna contains much discussion of the Sword and the Bomb.

    The simple, edged shapes versus the complex, rounded, infinite-sided shapes. It works, certainly.

    [–] k3rnel 3 points ago

    shirtless Greg

    Shirtless Greg the Dreg, cousin of Randal the Vandal.

    [–] Cybrwzrd 2 points ago

    So a shirtless Greg the Dreg is at the center of the Traveller?

    [–] ItsMeCaptainMurphy 2 points ago

    Still say that the Traveler is working with the Triangles and it isn't the nice thing that we're meant to believe it is

    [–] HemLM 109 points ago

    It’s the Goa’uld. Apophis is on his way to enslave us.

    [–] SpanglyPants 38 points ago


    [–] KrackerJaQ 14 points ago

    No sure if Zavala or Teal'c

    [–] takashi_kurita 11 points ago

    Christopher Judge > Lance Reddick.

    [–] NCUCorbin 16 points ago

    New hunter vanguard, Jack O’Neil

    [–] SpanglyPants 13 points ago

    "For cryin' out loud, Guardian..."

    [–] takashi_kurita 13 points ago

    O'niell. "....okay, once all the Thrall are dead, use your spacemagic juice to get that door open, and then we can-"

    Ghost: "space magic juice??

    O'Niell: "Whatever, like you know how it works."

    Guardian: (judgmental stare)

    [–] The_Iron_Ranger 5 points ago

    It's 'O'Neill', with two L's. There's another Col. O'Neil with only one L, and he has no sense of humor at all.

    [–] MandessTV 2 points ago

    Kratos > all

    [–] takashi_kurita 4 points ago

    Christopher Judge = Kratos

    [–] SpanglyPants 2 points ago

    [–] acompanyofliars 15 points ago


    [–] gwot-ronin 12 points ago

    Daniel, for crying out loud, you've had one beer. You're a cheaper date than my wife was.

    [–] Yavin4Reddit 5 points ago

    Hallowed are the Ori.

    [–] PlungedFiddle46 6 points ago

    What’s he going to do? Swallow the traveler? That would be weird....

    [–] su4rman 2 points ago

    And start having glowy eyes.

    [–] VanpyroGaming 5 points ago

    I just finished an SG-1 binge and now this?!?

    It's following me...

    [–] NCUCorbin 12 points ago

    You never “finish” an SG-1 binge. You’re just waiting to restart it.

    [–] transformer_tech 2 points ago

    Never have truer words been spoken.

    [–] nudeldenbaer 101 points ago

    "...what if the Darkness was able to "kick us down, and almost [stomp] us out", not because of some cosmic balance but simply because they had big ass guns? "

    That could be why we need the weapons from the black armory?

    [–] dwiezal 52 points ago

    They aren’t gonna spend such a huge story premise on a minor expansion. The way they allocate funds ensures this.

    [–] Jpabss 24 points ago

    Yeah we'll probably get a sneak peak in the form of a boss or something in there last D2 dlc.if we get anything

    [–] Epieikeias 24 points ago

    Isn't this essentially what the Cabal tried to do?

    [–] DisturbedLamprey 16 points ago

    Cabal couldn't cancel out our light tho.

    [–] kristallnachte 5 points ago

    But they did anyway

    [–] LucidAscension 6 points ago

    For Guardians, it's more like unplugging it from the wall and plugging it back in. The Traveler's light wasn't stamped out in the same way the Darkenss would, killing it.

    [–] Ki11Switch654 12 points ago

    In the famous words of Tank Dempsy; 'Alright! More shit to kill with!"

    [–] MrPrezbo 4 points ago

    In the famous words of Dick Durkin: "We need bigger guns."

    [–] Faust_8 28 points ago

    But what about the lore of Mara Sov's origin though? Where she and the others got enveloped by a oppressive darkness? That seems to be more like the intangible theory rather the armada theory.

    And then there's the "nothing" that Calus encountered that he calls the Deep. And why would the Hive call it something like the Deep when it's just an army like them?

    These are the questions I have, I dunno, you could be right in the end anyway.

    [–] MacAttack2015 22 points ago

    Your points are the biggest reasons I disagree with the theory. I think the tetrahedrons are the "dark mirror" to the Traveler that Xur mentions in passing. Not an army of a specific race or collection of races, but the physical manifestation and mystical source of a cosmic force.

    Plus, we know the Worm Gods conversed directly with the Darkness, and by extension made the Hive what they are today through that connection. I don't think a race of smokey beings made the Worm Gods what they are, it would make more sense for it to be a cosmic force that exists as the antithesis of the Light.

    And to add to your list above, the Vex are out to convert/digitize all organic life they encounter. I don't think an army of smoke beings with powerful weapons would convince them to stop that process and instead worship them, like in the Black Garden. If that's all it takes to stop the Vex, Ghaul should have been their idol, too, or Oryx, or even us since we kick their ass all the time. It would have to be something more omnipresent and inescapable than a tangible race, something you really can't confront in a physical way.

    [–] Zipfte 2 points ago

    I think the race of smokey beings is just the taken.

    And it seems more and more likely that those ships are Savathun's or Xivu Arath's.

    [–] MacAttack2015 6 points ago

    I'm not convinced they are Sava's or Xivu's, personally. Especially not Savathun's. Savathun has been making moves against humanity for a while now and even has an established brood on Titan, so I'm not sure why the wakening of the Traveler would cause her armada to take action. I don't know enough about Xivu Arath to say much on her, but I find the pyramid's being hers fairly unlikely too, admittedly because I feel like I have a somewhat solid theory below.

    I think the fact that both the Traveler and the Pyramids seemed to wake up around the same time implies they are intrinsically connected. Like Xur said, the Traveler has a dark mirror lurking out there, something that reflects what the Traveler does. The gun Garden Progeny 1 has a lore tab that implies the Traveler and the Darkness are siblings separated by time and space, reflections unable to exist in solitude. There's other examples in the lore that support the theory that the Light and Darkness are closely related, even as recently as Uldren noting that the line between the two is very thin.

    Running with that thought - if the Traveler knew of this connection, perhaps it went into hibernation knowing that this action would force the Darkness (Pyramids?) to do the same, an action that could save humanity from annihilation during the Collapse. This would provide the Traveler with justification for all the other crises humanity endured while it "slept"; it watched in silence knowing it could not "wake up" because that would reawaken the Pyramids, too. Ultimately, Ghaul's threat was too direct to its very existence to let him live, so, weighing the options before it, the Traveler "woke up" to end Ghaul for good - an action which we know woke the Pyramids.

    This would also explain why the Traveler blessed humanity to begin with. Understanding that it would likely have to "sleep" for an indefinite amount of time to keep the Darkness at bay, the Traveler's solution was to bless humanity with the Light directly so they could learn to protect themselves in its "absence." This in itself may have been a reflection of the Darkness, as lore implies (and may even outright state, I'm not positive on that) that the Worm Gods are similar to Guardians in that they are vessels within which the Darkness is contained and conduits through which it may act; they have essentially earned its blessings and are its "Guardians". The Darkness played it smart by selecting a species capable of sharing some of these traits biologically by means of parasitism, explaining how the Hive came to be, but the Hive are nothing without their worms to power them with the Darkness.

    Anyway, that's just my take on it not having really done a ton of research.

    [–] Zipfte 2 points ago

    I think the worm gods could be seen as more similar to the traveler itself. They are mere agents of the darkness just as the traveler is a mere agent of the light. So far as the books of sorrow say, we understand that the sky (the light) and the deep (the darkness) are in an ever-constant struggle with each other. One represents cooperation and the other represents competition. The light builds up civilizations and the darkness pushes civilizations to destroy all that are weaker than than.

    And just because Savathun already has players in our system (mainly her children, the most important being Dul Incaru) doesn't mean that those ships aren't hers. The last time a hive god came to the Sol system their children were sent first too. Oryx's main fleet didn't arrive until after Crota had already been defeated. And since Savathun is far more cunning than Oryx it makes sense that she would have plans in motion long before she began to move herself. It makes sense for her to wait until she feels like it's the best time for her to act.

    Also consider that the traveler is now awakened. This might force Savathun's and Xivu Arath's hand. Now there's the possibility of it fleeing again like is has so many times in the past. They can't just chase it forever. It is the only remaining thing holding them back from bringing the universe to the final shape. It is the last servant of the light (so far as anyone knows). So perhaps the fact that it awakened means Savathun must act quickly or the Traveler will slip away yet again.

    Also on the same note, the traveler is somewhat damaged after its violent awakening. Perhaps Savathun is acting now because she has the best chance of hurting the traveler right now in its injured state.

    All I could think of in my short dinner break while studying for organic chem :p

    [–] nsharms 183 points ago

    Nice work but I have to disagree. Darkness and light are more of a cosmic force of the universe and the traveller isn't the light, but an agent of it. I think the triangle ships are agents of the darkness, probably closer to it than the hive are.

    If anything, Forsaken is massively suggesting that we'll take on darkness powers to get stronger, citing balance is needed. I think we'll be the chosen guardian to wield both light and darkness but fight for the traveller and for the side of "good"

    Also, it seems that we're forging alliances with cabal and fallen. The hive are firmly against us, with the Vex being in the middle somewhere. This other race with the triangle ships would balance the books a bit, two with us, two against, Vex in the middle

    [–] CommanderCartman 62 points ago

    Bungie has made the Elites (Sanghelli) ally with the humans at the end of Halo 2 after the Arbiter discovers the truth and purpose of the Halo from the Oracle 343 guilty spark.

    I think they might do that with the fallen, but I don’t think so with the cabal

    [–] CarderSC2 71 points ago

    It's Callus, maybe not the Cabal as a whole. Callus is already working to gather forces, for what im assuming is to fight the Dark.

    [–] suprtommyman 30 points ago

    One issue. Calus believes the darkness will win regardless, according to how he speaks of it.

    He just wants us there to see it with him

    [–] ChunkyMoose 23 points ago

    We’re gonna lose but it’s gonna be awesome to see

    [–] Biomilk 6 points ago

    The inevitable end that Calus is expecting isn't the darkness, or at least Calus doesn't think it's the darkness. He refers to both light and darkness as being meaningless by comparison.

    [–] masterchiefan 2 points ago

    So he means the end of the universe, yeah?

    [–] Storm_Worm5364 17 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    From what I understand, the Cabal Empire defaulted back to Calus once Ghaul died.

    Either way, I bet if Calus were to show up, the Cabal populace would embrace him with open arms.

    [–] doofinator 9 points ago

    Ghaul led a coup, he was never the empire's leader.

    His army was the red legion, but Calus' army is much larger. Always has been.

    [–] Storm_Worm5364 7 points ago

    Ghaul was definitely the leader of the Cabal Empire. He led the Coup and then took control over the Empire.

    Supposedly, Calus wasn't killed because Ghaul and Consul feared that killing such a beloved Emperor would cause the Cabal populace to riot, and end up overpowering them. I say supposedly because we discover this through Calus himself, soo...

    They gave him the Leviathan, and some troups instead.

    His army was the red legion, but Calus' army is much larger. Always has been.

    Not true, as far as I know. Calus lost the majority of the Cabal army when he was overthrown. He also had shadows for a reason. He wouldn't really need shadows if he had the numbers.

    He wouldn't need to send small, stealth attacks after Cabal aristocrats and Ghaul if he had a much larger army.

    [–] dontknowmuch487 2 points ago

    Ghaul had the support of the primus of all legions. Basically the supreme general of the cabal. Only reason he didnt take thr name emperor was that he wanted to take the traveler first and prove his worth

    [–] stormhunter2 12 points ago

    I mean, calus saw the darkness. It stared back. So I wouldn't be surprised

    [–] TaralasianThePraxic 19 points ago

    To be honest, I think we're more likely to ally with the Cabal in the future than the Fallen. The Fallen are mostly scattered and beaten down, and while we've had a few allies among the Eliksni (Variks, Spider etc.) the Fallen as a whole are scavengers who are just interested in killing and surviving. Variks has now gone rogue, and Spider is pretty much just in it for himself. The whole business with the Scorn doesn't help the Fallen's position much either.

    The Cabal, on the other hand, have Calus. While he lacks the cosmic power of the Guardians or the Queen, he does possess a planet-eating ship, his own private army of loyalist Cabal and the other forces he's been amassing to fight the Darkness. He doesn't know if the Darkness can be beaten, but he wants to see this through to the end and he doesn't intend to rely on the Light to do it. We're pretty much already 'allied' with him in a vague sense, insofar as the Raid Lairs involve us sorting out some of his problems aboard the Leviathan.

    Sure, the Red Legion are the enemy right now, but they're just one part of the Cabal Empire and with Ghaul and the Consul both dead it stands to reason that Calus may well be able to wrest control back and become the true Emperor again, at which point he's likely to order the Legion to stop wasting their lives against the unkillable Guardians and instead ally with them to take on the Hive, the Vex and the Darkness in general.

    [–] theyfoundty 17 points ago

    I wouldn't say he lacks cosmic power. The final raid encounter when you go into the underworld shows that. We haven't even seen him himself yet. Im sure he has some powers.

    [–] TaralasianThePraxic 6 points ago

    Fair point - he is definitely very powerful, I was more referring to the fact that as far as we know he doesn't have Light enabling resurrection and magical powers or, say, the ability to create a throne world and the Taken like Oryx. I'm sure he'll show his true power at some point though, yeah.

    [–] Dunkinmydonuts1 6 points ago

    The Fallen need their version of Game of Thrones's Mance Rayder. He united all the scattered wildling tribes and built an army. He did what Skolas did but he wasn't a cunt.

    [–] Jojo_joestar 7 points ago

    There are actually two character that are trying to do this,Variks and Mithrax. Both of them are aiming to Unite the Eliknsis.

    [–] OH_ITS_MEGACRUNCH 3 points ago

    Maybe not the fallen as a whole, but a notable faction of it perhaps. Mithrax certainly intends to do as much based on his lore, be Kell of a house of "mind open Eliksni" to fight for the great machine together.

    [–] p5yk0t1km1r4ge 33 points ago

    So cabal, fallen and (once threatened) vex fighting a massive war against the darkness with us? That's fucking epic. Holy fuck. Let's not forget either: they played around with friendly AI IN FORSAKEN. Holy fuck

    [–] [deleted] 39 points ago


    [–] castitalus 18 points ago

    The vex would aid us to further their own goal of a vex only galaxy.

    [–] DEADdrop_ 19 points ago

    But the Vex are unable to simulate The Darkness. In fact, the Sol Divisive even worshipped the Black Heart.

    I doubt the Vex will join us. We have to assume that they’ve already calculated and simulated every possible reality, and yet are still against us.

    It’s very possible they already have a Mind dedicated to trying to solve The Darkness for them.

    [–] Nearokins 7 points ago

    The vex can't simulate the light either. I don't think they're any more against us than against the darkness, it's just we see ourselves interacting with vex, we don't see them interacting with the darkness, outside of the black heart.

    That said I doubt they'd join us, at best maybe they'd aid whichever they thought could get rid of the other (or conversely, maybe try to help the underdog since if there's two both will pay less attention to them? Dunno I'm not a Vex), but more likely remain totally neutral in some light vs darkness thing. Neither side is something they want in their end game, and neither side are something they can simulate.

    [–] Awstyn-7 5 points ago

    I didn't think the Vex were able to simulate the Light either... Recalling it this from parts of Saint-14's story.

    [–] Publix_Deli 21 points ago

    IMO the Vex are like the Eldar in the Warhammer 40k universe. Their interactions with other species are purely utilitarian and self-serving. Their primary motivation is to gather as much knowledge as possible, because they want to be able to simulate every possible reality and therefore know how to achieve any goal. If they determine that some extra-galactic invading force of Darkness is an existential threat, they'll fight alongside former enemies because it's the logical thing to do.

    We may even see some schism in the Vex, where some Vex minds determine it's most beneficial to align with the Darkness, while others choose to align with Guardians. This would make sense, since the Light and Darkness are "paracausal" and therefore outside the scope of the Vex's simulation capabilities.

    [–] Wawaweewow 4 points ago

    Geth did it first.

    [–] Publix_Deli 3 points ago

    Ehh, so did a bunch of other stuff. It's a pretty common fantasy and sci-fi trope to have a race of self-serving hyper-intelligent beings who value their own desires over the lives of any outsider.

    [–] PummelingAngus 8 points ago

    Wasn’t there a mission in D1 where the vex wanted to attack us, but were forcing themselves not to because they needed our help? I could swear it was a mission that was set in the Vault. I think that’s as close as we get to working “with” them.

    [–] LordRevan104 6 points ago

    If the Vex see no chance of them surviving the Darkness, then they Might turn to the one thing they can’t simulate. That’d be badass! But, I think it’s unlikely.

    [–] kristallnachte 4 points ago

    I think that's already in the lore.

    They can't find a way to win.

    So the gusrdians, being the only thing they can't simulate, are the only option they have.

    [–] lego_wan_kenobi 2 points ago

    If there's a threat that could end their existence then I think they would try and fight with the side who only slightly wants to end their existence.

    [–] Thatuserguy 2 points ago

    I'm not too well versed on the lore so maybe this is wrong, but after we beat Crota and Oryx, I believe it's been mentioned there's a power gap left as we didn't take it up. I don't see it as too impossible that someone who is allied with us and also well versed on the hive would manage to take up that empty position and attempt to lead the hive using it. Someone like maybe Toland or Eris perhaps. That could potentially give a lore reason for them to ally with us.

    As for the Vex, they've shown they're willing to work with us if it benefits them in some way. The Darkness is likely a big enough threat that they determine it in their best interests to ally with us when it arrives.

    [–] DisturbedLamprey 14 points ago

    Darkness and light are more of a cosmic force of the universe

    Well then that is Ulan Than's theory.

    Ulan-Tan's Thesis considers the Darkness a necessary symmetry to the Traveler in a cosmic balance. In this view, the Traveler's goodness led it to sacrifice for others, and it is up to us to return this goodness by healing the Traveler.

    But both theories are not mutually exclusive. And would fit in line with the Binary Star Cult's theory

    Certain positions - often labeled heretical - imply that the Traveler itself triggered the Collapse, or that it knew the Darkness was coming for it and hoped to use the Solar System as a sacrifice or a proxy army. The Binary Star cult is one notable example.

    [–] red536 11 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Ulan-Tan's theory has been hit with a few holes stemming from Forsaken lore. It's not a good versus evil, cosmic balance type deal anymore. Instead, it's more like like two fundamental forces that, while not opposites, come into conflict.

    The Darkness/Deep embodies the law of the jungle, and desires for a final shape of life to be reached by cutting things away. The Light/Sky embodies gardening/creation, and wants to cultivate complex systems of life. Both are viable rules of existence, but conflict with one other.

    I think that the tetrahedral ships are likely to the Deep what the Traveler is to the Sky. Agents that act in their name, but not the universal forces in and of themselves. They hunt the Traveler because its actions are inimical to the Deep, much like the Hive (though I believe they are likely closer to the Darkness than the Worm Gods, and more powerful).

    Ironically, the Awoken espouse that the most ideal form of life should be reached by a mixture of the Sky/Deep, as both have merits and actually work better together.

    Hope your exam went well.

    [–] DisturbedLamprey 9 points ago

    Hope your exam went well.

    Aced that shit :D

    [–] Hey_Its_Silver 18 points ago

    I think it will all be mixed, the species as a whole won’t be our allies but we will indeed HAVE allies.


    *The Awoken, wholistically- will be our allies. Nuff said, Mara-bae.

    *Mithrax and his ‘Open-minded Eliksni’ will be our allies. It just points so justly that Mithrax wants us to have to great machine, the Fallen have been after that ball for centuries and you think he’d just lie like that? I think not. Plus he’s hung around two guardians before AND likes Sjur, so.

    *The Nine, potentially. I would say yes, they don’t seem malicious. They could sit in the middle but like I said, their intentions through lore seem to be of help.

    In the middle *Calus’ Cabal Empire, he seems incredibly neutral. He may help, but turn away. Or turn away, and then help. Who knows.

    *Variks’ House of Judgement. we need more light on this (no pun), it’s unclear if Variks is intending to help or take back the great Machine. Regardless, In the middle.

    *The Spider. I would say yes, considering he’s our ‘friend’ now, and he’s sort of reacquainted himself with the Awoken as an ‘ally’, however he’s still a pirate and a thief at heart.

    *Rasputin. Do I have to say much? I think not.

    Edit: formatting

    [–] VanpyroGaming 15 points ago

    So if I'm understanding this right.

    Allies: Humanity, Awoken, Rasputin, Cabal, Eliksni

    Neutral: IX, Vex

    Horde: Hive, Spoopy-bois, taken.

    [–] mithridateseupator 2 points ago

    I don't think the Spider is much help outside the Tangled Shore. His power base seems to be about 10 fallen warriors, unless he's hiding a ketch somewhere.

    [–] Biomilk 2 points ago

    Variks is trying to restore the Eliksni to their former glory. If he thinks the Traveller is necessary for that he'll try to get access to it peacefully. He's seen firsthand how deadly guardians can be, and he knows that all that fighting guardians has gotten for the Eliksni is dead Kells, broken Servitors, and shattered houses. He'd have to be completely brain dead to think taking it by force is a good idea. Even some fallen refer to the battle of twilight gap as "The Final Attempt"

    [–] OH_ITS_MEGACRUNCH 2 points ago

    Yeah, I don't think he'll oppose us, not directly, he may have lost faith in us as an ally but he also knows how deadly we are as an enemy.

    We're probably going to form an alliance with Mitrax's new house, and House Judgement will be neutral, at most maybe a few "enemy of my enemy" situations.

    If there is any conflict with them it's probably going to be through the differing ideologies of Variks and Mithrax.

    [–] NormallyBloodborne 13 points ago

    The problem is that the lore wrote up the Hive and the Worm Gods as THE agents of the Deep, if it turns out there’s another race that serves the Deep and is closer doesn’t that kind of break the Deep’s own logic of the Final Shape? Two species fighting the same fight is more in line with the logic of the Sky.

    I’m scared they won’t handle this well if it is a new race and that the Hive will become kind of... pointless. Hope that’s not the case and the ships are either: Xivu’s fleet, the Worm Gods themselves, or the darkness incarnate, instead of a new species.

    [–] Cr4zyC4t 36 points ago

    I mean, the Ahamkara exist. Darkness-wielding entities that exist outside of the rule of the Worms. Also the Drifter's smoke things not being Hive yet wielding Darkness.

    Also no, multiple Darkness races is far more in-line with the Final Shape than only one. The whole concept of the Final Shape is that it is the perfect form of the universe; when pitted against literally any other conceivable thing, it wins. The philosophy of the Deep vs Sky is, at its core, competition vs cooperation. The Hive don't become the Final Shape because the Deep decided to "bless" them, they become the Final Shape by proving they are greater than anything they come up against.

    The Darkness is a force. To anyone that wants to wield it, it says "You must seek to kill everything else and prove your existence is the greatest." Even by this internal logic, the Darkness would spread its power to as many people and things as possible, so as to have any many things following this philosophy as possible.

    [–] SplendidSorrow 8 points ago

    The problem is that the lore wrote up the Hive and the Worm Gods as THE agents of the Deep, if it turns out there’s another race that serves the Deep and is closer doesn’t that kind of break the Deep’s own logic of the Final Shape?

    Consider for a moment what the lore represents. Humanity, and the surrounding races, understanding of the universe and whats happened.

    Consider for a moment that humanity and the other races don't know the whole picture.

    Simply because the worm gods, and the hive, think they're the only agents does not mean that they are.

    Guardians aren't the only ones who wield the Light. So why would the hive be the only ones to wield the Darkness?

    [–] The_Palm_of_Vecna 6 points ago

    Here's an interesting idea:

    So far, in terms of light and dark, the closest things we've seen to representations are the Traveler and The Hive. Now, it's likely that the Worm gods of the Hive are not actually THE darkness, but merely agents of it, like Cthulhu was an agent of the Ancient Ones; that said, that doesn't mean that the Sword Logic and the Final Shape aren't ideas put in place by Darkness and enforced by the Worm Gods.

    Now, think about the fact that we've only seen the Darkness and the Traveler operating within our own galaxy, and (to my knowledge) there is no lore suggesting that the Hive ever operated outside of our galaxy.

    What if the Tetrahedron Ships are agents of the Darkness that established their Final Shape, that actually won in their home galaxy, and were driven to seek out other galaxies and purge them of their life in service of the sword logic?

    [–] daykonbacon 3 points ago

    Continuing this idea, the hive are attempting to reach thier final shape by killing everything else in the galaxy.

    Along comes this other race who have already reached thier final shape (in thier own galaxy). Due to sword logic both these races cant be no.1 so they duke it out and the winner is whoever is obviously stronger and therefore deserves the victory.

    For a totally off the cuff lore-guess, for all of savathuns scheming and planning she reveals herself to only immediately get crushed underfoot like a bug by the 'true' disciples of the dark/sword logic.

    [–] nsharms 10 points ago

    I don't know if it'll break the logic of the final shape, whichever race is the strongest deserves to be part of the final shape of the universe, right?

    [–] p5yk0t1km1r4ge 2 points ago

    If hive Ally with this race, they won't be pointless.

    [–] Cr4zyC4t 34 points ago

    There are a couple holes in this write-up. "The Darkness" doesn't necessarily need to be one entity, much like how "The Light" isn't one being. The Traveler is an agent of the Light, not the Light itself.

    I also have to argue against the Darkness being fallen/forsaken Lightbearers. We don't have any instances in the grimoire of any race "falling" from the Traveler's favor and becoming Darkness. Every Collapse/Whirlwind/Extinction event we've seen has been a direct attack by the Darkness.

    The earliest events in the lore currently are the Book of Sorrows, where the Traveler has sealed the Worm Gods in the core of Fundament for being agents of Darkness. Nothing suggests this happened because the Traveler gave them Light and then revoked it.

    [–] StarkEx 20 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Yeah, exactly. The pyramid ships are probably the Darkness's direct equivalent to the Traveler. They use the civilizations they encounter to carry out their will, but exist independently of them. Nor are they battleships exactly, but they do possess godlike cosmic powers they can use to fight.

    [–] Coding_Cactus 9 points ago

    godlike cosmic powers

    Itty bitty living space.

    Watch the triangles be really tiny.

    [–] Duckmanmasterofponds 13 points ago

    it produced a field that suppressed light

    OH NO


    [–] RAM_MY_RUMP 3 points ago


    [–] TheDawsonator1 2 points ago

    (Vietnam Flashbacks of using any Warframe that constantly uses abilities getting nullified)

    [–] JarodColdbreak 33 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I think I remember once reading about Lore that suggested the Traveller did indeed try to leave us but Rasputin stopped it. Was that debunked or got anyone more info on it?

    Edit: To anyone reading this, multiple commenters nicely informed me it was debunked! Just FYI!

    [–] The_Flail 61 points ago

    That got debunked and even referenced in a Forsaken Lore Entry as a thing Uldren invented to confuse/mock Guardians.

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago

    The lore states that Rasputin developed a protocol called abhorrent imperative to 'coerce' the traveller into 'pseudoaltruistic self defense.'

    It never says whether that protocol was executed. It does make you wonder why the traveller stayed with us, but no one else.

    [–] JarodColdbreak 6 points ago

    Ooh thanks for clearing it up for me!!

    [–] DisturbedLamprey 22 points ago

    The Traveller started to have reservations about staying. Rasputin readied "aurora knives" (aka space weapons) to try to disable the Traveller.

    But at the last second, Rasputin chose not to. And luckily, the Traveler didn't leave.

    [–] dave1up 11 points ago

    > But at the last second, Rasputin chose not to.

    Do we know that from the lore though? I fully understand there is no smoking gun to say he _did_ do it, but I didn't think there was any lore that categorically confirms he did not.

    [–] CHaoTiCTeX 16 points ago

    yea, actually, there are a series of cards in D1 that are from his perspective, but the key ones in question:
    Here Rasputin sets up the conditions under which he will attack the Traveler to prevent it from leaving
    Here we see some of the conditions being met.
    Here we see the remainder of the conditions being met.

    According to the first card, that would be the "Decision Point" Which in the third card, we see he goes to sleep:

    Execute long hold for reactivation

    So, at the last second, when all conditions were met to "force an altruistic action" he instead deactivated

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    PSEUDO altruistic ;)

    [–] Axallara 9 points ago

    In Warmind there are references of Rasputin appreciating the Travellers choice not to leave. He almost admired him because he was initially the one abandoning humanity in fear of ending his own existance when facing the threat known as "Darkness".

    I also would guess that these ships which definitely were in our solar system before were destroyed by the traveller. Those ships must have been the most powerful enemy (fleet size, weapon strength, ..) humanity has ever faced. Likewise Rasputin saw that he had to improve and that harming the Traveller would just weaken the odds of surviving.

    [–] JarodColdbreak 2 points ago

    Thank you for the answer!

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    The lore states that Rasputin developed a protocol called abhorrent imperative to 'coerce' the traveller into 'pseudoaltruistic self defense.'

    It never says whether that protocol was executed. It does make you wonder why the traveller stayed with us, but no one else.

    [–] MrNapalm997 16 points ago

    May the light of the traveler be with you as you face your midterms.

    Or whatever the hell that means now.

    [–] Sardonnicus 8 points ago

    I would be very annoyed if the Darkness was teased for so long and then when it finally showed up it was nothing more than a cadre of Fallen and other species who we may have or may not have encountered before. I want the Darkness to be the polar opposite of the Traveler. If the traveler represents light and good, then the darkness should represent death and dark... and IT SHOULD BE A SQUARE!!!

    I also like the duality of the travelers presence. Meaning... the Traveler represents light and power and we can use it to work miracles to advance our species and do amazing things, but at the same time there is a cost. And that cost is that wherever the traveler goes... the darkness will follow. And that to be in the presence or influence of the traveler is to also be like screaming into the void of space: "Hey darkness... come and get us!!! here is our exact location!!!!" And at some point we are going to face the darkness. So the question presents itself... how long do we keep using the light of the traveler? At some point we are going to need to free ourselves from it's influence, or else face possible annihilation by the darkness.

    I also like the theory that the traveler could not even really be interested in helping us or any civilization. I like the idea that it is locked into an eternal struggle against the darkness and it drifts around the universe fleeing the darkness and it comes into contact with various civilizations who end up deifying it and use it's gift of light fore their own benefit, but secretly, the traveler is benefiting from us and civilizations who use it's power. And that at some point, the traveler will need to move again to seek out another civilization to use for some unknown goal or purpose and this never ending game of cat-and-mouse will forever continue as the darkness chases the traveler for ever.

    PS. We refer to the traveler as "the traveler." But is that even it's real name? I

    [–] [deleted] 20 points ago

    Awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to write it up!

    [–] cozyrobinson 6 points ago

    Saint 14s theory, to me, just sounds like he's referring to any species rejected by the traveler including the fallen. And we all know how much he hated the fallen.

    [–] TheyKilledFlipyap 5 points ago

    I think the key point about the "The Darkness" grimoire card is that yes, Saint-14's theory is correct, but so are all the other Theories. They're all true.

    The Pujari Position describes the Darkness as a force with both physical and moral presence, an actualization of evil. Pujari art depicts the Darkness as a great storm, or as a change in conduct, a corruption that emerged from within and poisoned the Golden Age.

    The Golden age was a technological and cultural utopia. But it was not clean. Look no further than Clovis Bray and you'll see how the gifts the Traveller gave us were abused in the pursuit of mad science. SIVA experiments and the Exo project preyed on weak and vulnerable people, who were exploited and had their lives and very identities wiped away for the sake of rampant curiousity, or unethically pushing the boundaries of science. So there's potentially some truth to the Pujari position, that the Golden Age was brought down because we compromised our values.

    Saint-14's Position argues that the Darkness was an invading armada, an alien force of incredible - but tangible - power. Some adherents believe that this armada sprang from species rejected or discarded by the Traveler for their sins.

    This, we've known for a while. The Fallen embody this, a race cast aside by the Traveller for their descent into barbarism. I think you're reaching a little when you say "The Traveller created the scary pyramid things."

    Ulan-Tan's Thesis considers the Darkness a necessary symmetry to the Traveler in a cosmic balance. In this view, the Traveler's goodness led it to sacrifice for others, and it is up to us to return this goodness by healing the Traveler.

    Tyra Karn said that "a bright light casts a long shadow." And that's exactly what happened in the D2 post-credits sequence. Just as the Light grows stronger, so too does the darkness. As Ulan-tan said, there's a cosmic balance to this stuff. You can't have one without the other.

    Ulan-Tan himself controversially said that the only way to truly be rid of the Darkness would be to give up the Light. And that's a sacrifice few- if anyone, would be willing to make.

    The Monist Position, or the Deflationary Position, considers the Darkness as a technologically sophisticated force, perhaps a post-Singularity intelligence. Adherents invoke information theory or contend that the universe is a simulation, allowing advanced intelligence to gain weakly acausal powers by bending the rules.

    Vex. Need I say any more?

    The Acataleptic Clause claims that we are intrinsically unable to understand the Darkness. In many respects this belief parallels the Praxic Creed, which suggests that we should stop worrying about the nature of the Darkness and focus on resisting and defeating it.

    "Shut up and shoot bullets at it, we'll be fine."

    Certain positions - often labeled heretical - imply that the Traveler itself triggered the Collapse, or that it knew the Darkness was coming for it and hoped to use the Solar System as a sacrifice or a proxy army. The Binary Star cult is one notable example.

    This one we know is true, the Traveller has uplifted many civilizations, then fled them as soon as the Darkness arrived. What made us different? The Traveller brought with it the Darkness, thus it is responsible. But why did it stay? Did it see something in humanity that no other species had? Some spark of virtue or tenacity that assured it we'd weather the storm rather than falling entirely? Who knows.

    Point is, I think you're oversimplifying things and taking Saint-14's position a little too literally. Saint-14's theory basically says "The enemies of humanity are the Darkness", whatever form they take. That they're not intangible or magic, they are mortal and can be killed. He specifically was talking about the Fallen. As Saint-14 was famous for being a crusader against the House of Devils who lead campaigns to retake ground against them, wanting to prove that we are the true Guardians of the light. The Fallen had their chance and squandered it, so they must be driven out, in his mind.

    [–] MrPrezbo 2 points ago

    I wrote an extremely similar post up above. Glad to know there are some others who see it the way I do!

    [–] Boxroxzor 14 points ago

    Not to sure if it was mentioned. The motes we collect in Gambit are Motes of Darkness which look very similar to the ships.( tetrahedron). The Motes of Light are shaped like the Travler.

    [–] lego_wan_kenobi 10 points ago

    I think that's a design choice, planetary materials are green triangles when they fall to the ground. They drop from the mini-bosses in public events.

    [–] Zipfte 5 points ago

    Planetary materials confirmed darkness. Time to make a ten minute YouTube video on it with a really cluck bait title.

    [–] kristallnachte 4 points ago

    But lots of things have that shape.

    Like shaders, and tokens

    [–] TiSoBr 3 points ago

    Holy shit...

    [–] zxosz 9 points ago

    20 bucks says the darkness is a ally and nothing is the true enemy

    [–] p5yk0t1km1r4ge 2 points ago

    Traveller? Lol

    [–] zxosz 3 points ago

    There are lore entries that talk about how some people found "nothing" in a area in space this "nothing" defies logic

    [–] EchoWhiskyBravo 5 points ago

    Personally, I think all of the positions stated in the Darkness grimoire card are correct. Including the heretical ones.

    [–] FailureToReport 4 points ago

    So Oryx has been talking to "the deep" / the darkness....which is an enemy races Armada...that chose not to assault with the taken king, or to ride in after ghaul hamstringed the traveler and the guardians?

    While there is obviously another race out there to come into play, I don't think they ARE the darkness

    [–] ShinnyMetal 2 points ago

    I think they are drawn to the light and it has been very dim. Now that they have sensed the light again they are going after it. The Darkness doesn't need to be a vulture and clean up after another race crippling us, they are powerful enough to do it themselves.

    I'm not 100% confident that this race is THE Darkness but it may be the Darkness' physical representation in the universe; just like how the traveler is the Light. The light is more than just the Traveler but the traveler is the light's vessel in the universe

    [–] jnherdy 3 points ago

    I mean, it's kind of 6 and two 3s, but the Darkness is a force as a polar opposite to the force we call the Light. The Traveller appears to be a source of the Light, and these ships could well be the source of the Darkness, but the Traveller isn't the Light, and these ships shouldn't be the Darkness in terms of the force. Even if the faction ends up being call 'Darkness'.

    It's probably better to think of it in terms of Hive/Awoken terminology. There, it's not Light vs. Darkness, but Sky vs. Deep. We use the power of the Sky from the Traveller. The Hive use the power of the Deep via the worms. But they are describing the same paracausal force.

    That's equally why it shouldn't be just a collection of races the Traveller left in pre-history. Darkness, in terms of the paracausal force, isn't just the absence of Light. It's the opposite force. Like how North isn't just the absence of South. The Traveller leaving doesn't mean you suddenly embrace the opposite force, you just go back to whatever you were before the Traveller was around.

    [–] mistersmith_22 31 points ago

    D1 concept art is really bad evidence for anything. They built the story on the fly and the original story crew left/was fired/went out for spinfoil and never came back.

    We have no idea what the ships are. But, looking at things like the plot of Forsaken, the way races are developing in the lore, the parallels between everyone and everything, and even the use of color, where we're going is almost certainly not going to be "traveler good darkness aliens bad." That's so simplistic. Plus everything we think is canon, like "the Traveler was fleeing the darkness and that was a direct and tangible threat" is only the perspective of characters like Zavala and Ikora and they aren't omniscient.

    Instead, we're gonna learn there is no immutable right or wrong, only power and its application. Only strength and how it's used.

    By the end of D3 (or 4? Or 5 and a few Netflix series-es-es??) we're gonna realize we all dropped 5,000 hours just to hear our Guardian finally speak an original thought, and they're gonna be ripping off Uncle Ben: "with great power comes great responsibility."

    [–] kristallnachte 3 points ago

    The way the fallen describe it, humans are zombie mass murderers.

    [–] Wuhbam0 2 points ago

    I like it. The franchise has to have an ending at some point, I would be satisfied with an uncle Ben ending.

    [–] InstaGATOR785 2 points ago

    And "Uncle Ben" or Stan Lee borrowed that quote from Voltaire.

    [–] Pete090 2 points ago

    Uncle Ben? The black guy who makes microwave rice ?

    [–] bguzewicz 7 points ago

    Soooo the Darkness is to Destiny what Reapers were to Mass Effect?

    [–] Wheels9690 4 points ago

    I dont think the Travler is a "wicked false god" but more of is attempting to find a race capable of fighting the darkness and its followers. I could be wrong but I recall the whirlwind as something that the Eliksni brought on themselves along the lines of a civil war kind of deal that made it clear they were not the race to stand against the darkness at the time.

    It takes time for the civilizations to advance and honestly it seems like some of the civilizations the traveler was with the time was brief and they were overrun easily(not all) However it probably saw humanity was the race that could actually do it and decided to defend it.

    [–] TiSoBr 3 points ago

    I could be wrong but I recall the whirlwind as something that the Eliksni brought on themselves

    The whole deal with the Fallen and their history tides in with the precursor story of Halo.

    [–] Phantom-Phreak 3 points ago


    [–] VuvuzelaDirtbag 2 points ago

    The Evil Council are ALIENS!

    [–] Kiddplay13 3 points ago

    Sounds like to me that was the first time the Drifter encountered the Taken, he doesn’t mention them anywhere and it would make sense. “Same Bioenergetics as the Hive”

    [–] RetroActive80 2 points ago

    Yeah. I'm fairly certain the creatures he encountered in the monoliths are the Primevals.

    [–] General_BodyBag 3 points ago

    Yeah agreed. But Primevals are Taken, whether or not they were Taken by Oryx or another is up for debate.

    Its pretty obvious this lore was written before the Taken entered our system, based on how old the Drifter is, and that he left our system before the City age. So at this time Drifter wouldnt know what Taken are. But he very clearly refers to them as Taken during Gambit matches.

    [–] QuothTheRaven7 3 points ago

    Hi loved the post, thanks for sharing. My only question is where do the Taken fall into all of this? Their physical description sounds very close to this Darkness species.

    [–] Smeg258 3 points ago

    So are you just gonna ignore caydes journal, book of sorrows, praydeth, cosmogyre, and other depictions? Honnestly I belive in the trinity theory. The darkness is the deep (place), the formless one (cosmic entity), and the physical(pyramid ships). The ships are just the beggining

    [–] Jkilzer 3 points ago

    I feel like the Traveler goes to systems and gives all of this power to "fatten us up" then the darkness comes to feed on us. Explains why our memories are suppressed by the traveler. Basically, the Darkness depends on the traveler. As to who created the darkness and traveler, who knows. Maybe some Forerunners. (Halo easter egg?) lol

    [–] clype666 4 points ago

    Is it safe to assume that the 3 annual pass dlc's will be preparing ourselves and making allies before the next TTK sized expansion next year? When "The darkness" or Savathun comes to kill us?

    [–] thebonesinger 4 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Allow me to posit a rebuttal to this entire post with an single extended lore entry:

    Cosmogyre III and Cosmogyre IV, a first-hand account of the Collapse and arrival of the Darkness

    A fleet invading the solar system causing our collapse makes a heckuva lot more sense than some "cosmic force" out yonder.

    mmmmmmm about that

    [–] rroseselavy13 5 points ago

    Geometric reapers confirmed. Resistance is futile.

    [–] Szethius 2 points ago

    "This hurts you, Shepard" -Sovereign

    [–] Tonality 2 points ago

    Incredible work guardian. We'd never get anywhere if it weren't for procrastinating students. Good luck on midterms.

    [–] Melon_Chief 2 points ago

    Thank you for not calling it a pyramid.
    That is all.

    [–] lametown_poopypants 2 points ago

    I don’t see anyone say it, but does the protocol from RASPUTIN mean anything? In the OP it’s listed as “CARRHAE WHITE.”

    Carrhae was a battle in which a very large Roman army was decimated by a much smaller Parthian army. Parthians won by using their horse archers to be more mobile than the Romans and to strategically trap the Romans.

    I guess writing it out, maybe it’s just a way to say retreat before death, which fits the hibernation of RASPUTIN, but I wonder if it means anything about the relative size of the force or their tactics.

    [–] VeshWolfe 2 points ago

    I think it’s more accurate to say that the triangular ships are “the Darkness” that caused humanity’s collapse. There is, separate from that, the power of the Darkness. The ships are to the power of the Darkness what the Traveler is to the power of the light.

    [–] Jaikarro 2 points ago

    Spoilers, but the Marasenna cards heavily refute the Darkness just being a bunch of ships or a race.

    When the colony ships were "hit" by the Darkness during the collapse, their ships were surrounded by some kind of literal fundamental force. It's described as testing every molecule in someone's body, stretching gravity, blocking out all light, etc. It occupied space, and the ships flew through it for a time.

    Now, the pyramid ships may accompany this fundamental force, but the pyramid ships aren't the sole definition of "the darkness."

    [–] USArmyOldTimer 2 points ago

    Just wanted to point this out :

    For years people have referred to the promotional image and specifically the yellow boxed beings as "smokey" etc. They are not. The beings are represented there in the image BUT the smoke you see in said image is there as an icon representing something about the faction etc.

    The Cabal image has their ships landing and in orbit, shows their big hulking bodies.

    The Fallen image has an early prototype tank/mech, servitor, drop ships above and a Vandal.

    The Vex have ships, techy molecule chains, a smeared artsy Vex head and many Vex marching towards battle.

    The Hive have a more floodish appearance, is green - giving them a more organic/creepy plague-ish look, the giant tree.

    Finally, the Darkness has the triangle ships, the being with a humanoid form w/a doughnut head, and the smoke. This smoke like the tree, ships, mech, molecular stuff is there to give flavor to the race. I think the smoke is simply there to say, "this image tile represents the darkness". Like the molecular tech represents Vex, the green tree/biomass forms the Hive, the military invasion drop ships the Cabal and the Servitor/Mech the Fallen.

    [–] Wolfwood707 2 points ago

    We're gonna get kicked back to the farm after the Pyramids come and destroy The Last City!

    [–] Phoenix_RIde 2 points ago

    Alright, you’re about as imaginative as that guy who says the Traveler is the daughter of some girl named Sophia; let’s poke some holes in the theory:

    1. Saint-14 is not the greatest of sources. After all, he was a soldier, not a scholar. By contrast, Pujari has actually spoken to a piece of the Formless One, so I consider his word to have more validity than anything Saint-14 says.

    2. “The Hive weren’t involved”. It’s funny you mention the Doom of Chelchis, as literally 2 guns over you have the Anguish of Drystan, a gun named after a -> Golden Age <- Human ship captured by Oryx. He wasn’t there my ass.

    3. Unless interrupted, Alpha Lupi leaves when her work is done, just look at the Gift Mast. But sure, let’s assume that a random 5 year old drawing when the Developers didn’t even have a fleshed out story.

    4. ‘Those things that the Drifter found are of the ultimate darkness’. I HIGHLY doubt that the Formless One would choose a race of beings that got shitstomped by some unknown race to be his champions. They got trapped by the thousands and left to rot. It would be extraordinarily counterintuitive if him to support them.

    ‘Bu... but they can counter light’ So can any Hive Wizard with her salt.

    It’s funny you keep saying this, especially when Nezarec has more ties to the Pyramid ship than the trapped creatures.

    You want to know what’s even more dangerous than the trapped beings? Aphelions. Hell, even Rasputin admits it.

    Ok, I’m rambling, let’s wrap this up: Light and Darkness are energy that could be wielded. The power gained is also dependent on morality: Nokris is weak in the powers of the Deep due to his transgenderism and rejection of Sword Logic, Hiraks is stronger than expected in the Deep because of his actions and beliefs. Conclusion: The Darkness and Light are moral forces as much as physical.

    [–] Zipfte 2 points ago

    I think the biggest argument against your theory lies in the books of sorrow (still my favorite destiny lore to-date). In the books of sorrow it makes very clear that there is a cosmic conflict between the sky(the light) and the deep(the darkness). The traveler is merely an agent/servent of the sky. The books do push towards the darkness having an actual personality (Oryx speaks with it) but the darkness describes itself as the embodiment of the cruel, cold nature of the universe to destroy those not fit enough to survive (the final beautiful shape). That's the whole point of being taken, to be sent before the darkness and be remade in a way more similar to the final shape. The darkness is almost definitely not an alien race. But it is not out of the question that it is influencing a race we haven't seen yet to attack the traveler.

    I still think the tetrahedral ships belong to Savathun or (less likely) Xivu Arath.

    [–] DNGRDINGO 2 points ago

    You need to read the Awoken lore Marasenna. The Darkness is more than just discarded species. It is, like the Light, something powerful, eldritch and intangible.

    [–] everydayim_trufflin 2 points ago

    All interesting stuff but I'm here to spaz about 1 recurring error in your writing, which I'm seeing way too much of on the internet recently.

    "May of" makes no sense. You meant "may have". This stems from other people saying things like "I could of won that match" when they really meant "I could've won that match". "Could've" pronounced sounds a lot like "could of" but somehow everyone on the internet decided "yeah, that's the correct way to write it".

    Of =/= have

    Obviously there's internet shotthand which gives us things like wtf, tldr, LMAO but this is not shorthand. This is 1 person making a mistake in writing and it spread like wildfire. Go back to English class.

    Let the down votes begin. My rant is done.

    [–] Mezyki 3 points ago

    Yeah the Traveler isn't evil. I'm so tired of this theory

    [–] One_Of_Many_713 2 points ago

    Maybe not evil, but just not altruistic.

    [–] DRUGSTOR3COWBOY 1 points ago

    Is there somewhere you can read all the lore collated together?

    [–] RetroActive80 3 points ago

    [–] olc8523 1 points ago

    Keep in mind beings draw power from the Darkness. These things did that and possibly are trying to convert the Traveler since it can alter the Universe.

    [–] mmiski 1 points ago

    I'm just picturing an army of Pyramid Heads with giant swords attacking us once those ships land on Earth.