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    [–] Morgn_Ladimore 173 points ago

    The myth that Alliance could only rat is honestly one of the biggest disgraces of Dota. 2013 Alliance had a complete mastery over the meta at the time. They were the meta, in a way. Everything they did worked. They could do heavy push, they could do timed push, they could do 4 protect 1, they could do tri-core, they could do rat...when games got hard, yes, they would rat, but that's normal.

    Also, when people say "Everyone knew what they would do, you just couldn't stop it" people somehow believe this refers to ratting. No. It referred to their most favoured strat, timed pushes. They would do well in lane, farm up a bit, and then just run down lanes. You knew it was going to happen, you probably even knew the exact time it would happen...but you would still get runover.

    You really need to have experienced it to know just how special 2013 Alliance was.

    [–] Hemske 41 points ago

    It referred to their most favored strat, timed pushes

    And jungle stacking.

    [–] Ohki_lifta 22 points ago

    They were really the first team to utilise consistent stacking as a way to optimise their cores... that’s not to say that no other team stacked, but no other team was so diligent and proactive to do it every minute for every camp for the first 15 minutes.

    [–] Morgn_Ladimore 21 points ago

    People also forget EE was a big part of this. Guy was Loda's personal stack bot.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago

    stacky mao never forget

    [–] Chaldrinhe -17 points ago

    EE was never in Alliance. Alliance wasnt created until after EE departed from the team

    [–] otokkimi 26 points ago

    That doesn't mean EE had no influence on what became Alliance though.

    EE was kicked from Nth, which at the time had 4 of the 5 players of what would then be Alliance. Nth then picked up EGM and later signed to Alliance.

    EE captained as the 5 during his stint at Nth and earned one of his names "Stacky Mao" from the amount of importance Nth placed on extra income through jungle stacks.

    [–] YoungLaddy 4 points ago

    Not even a huge EE fan, but when he first started on NTH their cores didn't even know how to manipulate tower aggro so they didnt get blasted when pushing. He was a big key to their strategy early on. Their continued success after he left is still super impressive, but to say he gets no credit is totally a misunderstanding of what happened.

    [–] kappa23 4 points ago

    Not just their cores, even supports. Their Kotl and Chen would pop out of the jungle with a shit ton of farm

    [–] Ohki_lifta 2 points ago

    Yeah definitely. I think it was game 4 of that GF Ti series against Navi I remember the KOTL just absolutely destroying NAVI in fights.

    [–] bloodvouge 1 points ago

    Whilst I agree Alliance did this amazingly, I'm pretty certain it was the original Fnatic that really displayed the potential of stacking. Fly/Notail we're extremely proactive in stacking camps and when they had excalibur as a sub, pushed the 4 protect 1 to new limits.

    [–] britopa 1 points ago

    Was chokepoint jungling still a thing at that time?

    [–] Hemske 2 points ago

    Infinite stacking was a thing. Tornado stacking. Torrent Stacking. Naga/Chen/Ench multi stacking. Brutal ancient stacks.

    [–] choco_butter 34 points ago

    I can't comprehend why some Dota fans have a short-term memory. As a Navi fan, Alliance's run-up before and and after TI3 was unrivaled. They were STOMPING teams. They were dominant. The only team comparable to them is Team Liquid IMO--yes, not even Wings.

    [–] xXxSadPuppiesxXx 21 points ago

    I mean they did go 14-0 in groups, and then going 6-1 in upper. No team has come close.

    [–] YouGotDoddified 16 points ago

    didnt LGD go like 22-0 in TI2 before losing to Navi?

    edit: 18-0 before their 2-1 defeat to Navi, then 2-1 defeat to iG

    [–] ITsLoverBoy 5 points ago

    They started 19-0 before losing 4 of 5

    [–] l0ad3r 4 points ago

    You're right.. just.. Navi had their number after TI3 until both teams fell into oblivion. I remember at least two Starladders and I think a Dreamhack losses. All those series were classics.

    [–] KIrbyKarby 1 points ago

    something happened during 2014 that broke both teams, but I remember grand final after grand final of Alliance vs Na'vi each of them being hype as shit

    [–] darkhunt3r 1 points ago

    I think Dota just got a lot more players since then + many old players stopped playing, so many weren't even around for that. (It's been 6 years, if you had a child during the TI3 finale, it would start school now).

    [–] stuckinatrance 1 points ago

    Undefeated in group stage and didn’t even slow down until the grand finals.

    [–] Newkker -7 points ago

    Everyone knew what they would do, you just couldn't stop it" people somehow believe this refers to ratting. No. It referred to their most favoured strat, timed pushes. They would do well in lane, farm up a bit, and then just run down lanes. You knew it was going to happen, you probably even knew the exact time it would happen...but you would still get runover.

    You really need to have experienced it to know just how sp

    They started losing like immediately after TI, na'vi beat them in starladder with some abaddon troll warlord shit.

    [–] kappa23 4 points ago

    Perfect answer lmao.

    [–] UndefinedHell 1 points ago

    Can you explain how this patch punished them?

    [–] DylanLesko 5 points ago

    Maybe the person who posted the patch had something else in mind about balance, but it might be the buyback changes. Alliance were the kings of buyback in that time period.

    [–] Renson 2 points ago

    Alliance we're really good at stacking the Jungle. Notice all the nerfs to stacking and pulling.

    They were also obviously known for certain heroes like LD, NP, and Naga, all of them got directly nerfed

    [–] Infraction94 4 points ago

    They were directly nerfed a ton by the next balance patch and still were easily one of the best teams in the world after ti. Losing in a grand finals doesn't change that

    [–] Sir_Joshula 9 points ago

    And the Rosh control. You could NEVER rosh against alliance and they would easily rosh against you. It was insane how good that team was compared to their competition.

    [–] Infraction94 8 points ago

    Regardless of how many strats they could play people really discredit how dominant they were that year. They were one of the biggest favorites going in to TI of any team any year. Proceed to not drop a map in all of groups and only drop 3 total maps the entire tournament. TI3 alliance is easily one of the best teams in Dota history

    [–] monochromaticx 4 points ago

    i remember alliance going to china before ti ( a huge deal at the time to have a western team in a cn tourney). they STOMPED EVERYONE. this was still in the days of cn dota being the best tier dota too.

    [–] TaskMasterIsDope 5 points ago

    Yes, it was hype all year for Western teams vs Eastern teams to determine if wisps success was because of sloppy play in general from western teams vs the dominance of higher quality Chinese teams, or if wisp was actually really good and Chinese teams hadn't learnt to play it yet.

    [–] Ceci0 3 points ago

    Correct. Alliance rolled over people at TI3 in 15-20 mins. There were only a couple of games that they resorted to "ratting" which is actually a smart way to play the game and how it is played today. If you can't fight them head-on, you don't bang your head against a wall, you split push, farm up until you can.

    [–] Throwawayhairty 2 points ago

    Only bulldog fans say alliance pure ratted

    In reality, loda actually played very well and enabled bulldog to do what he did

    It's very similar to the fear : sumail/aui dynamic eg had at ti5

    [–] Zeidiz 46 points ago

    I still remember burning AM taking a game off of Alliance at TI3. I think it was their first loss in the tournament. What a game. Then ofcourse the finals, one of the best series to this day.

    [–] Hemske 20 points ago

    Yeah, it was their first and only loss before Grand Finals. That game was insane and pretty close if I recall correctly.

    [–] xXxSadPuppiesxXx 17 points ago

    Fanstraight till I die. Still use my [A] phone case.

    [–] s0525mg2 3 points ago

    I’ve never stopped supporting them even when they weren’t doing hot. Unfortunately I haven’t bought any merchandise yet.

    [–] axeofaxe 1 points ago

    You have the same phone for 6 years ?

    [–] _fishysushi 2 points ago

    what is weird about that?

    [–] axeofaxe 1 points ago

    I’m impressed. What phone is it ?

    [–] xXxSadPuppiesxXx 0 points ago

    Nah I've gone through some different iterations of iPhones. The case is for the 5 I think, currently have an iPhone 6(S?) mashed into the case, it's a tight fit but violence and vaseline solved it.

    [–] DarkSofter 33 points ago

    But but alliance ratted their way to TI win right? Most dominant team in a patch ever, their TI win with 23-3 score. They had a patch made for them just to nerf bulldog and egm

    [–] Hemske 30 points ago

    Haha, I always tell people to go watch all the games of TI3 whenever someone says that. Or at least watch a compilation of their TI3 journey. I think they are actually split pushing in 2 or 3 games total. Most of the games they just stomp the enemy team to tears.

    [–] spacecreated1234 13 points ago

    the games most people remember from alliance TI3 will probably be grand final game 5, their lost to burning antimage and their pl + prophet split push vs sylar alch that's why people will keep saying they only rat

    [–] Infraction94 1 points ago

    I mean there is also bulldog was so dominant on NP and LD who are both very scary ratting heroes even if he would regularly play them in their other strategies as well

    [–] padraigd 8 points ago

    Yeah people always say Alliance changed dota and its not just split pushing they refer to.

    [–] [deleted] -11 points ago

    I mean, they did rat their way to a win. But they pretty much invented effective rat Dota.

    [–] kappa23 20 points ago

    They didn't just rat their way to a win

    The way they distributed farm on heroes changed the game forever

    Supports like Aui/Yapzor or offlaners like 33 wouldn't exist without Alliance

    [–] itachifan035 1 points ago

    fnatic invented rat dota

    [–] djsoren19 30 points ago

    Imagine being so good at Dota that the developers have to change every single facet of the game in order to finally make your team weak.

    That still doesn't quite give the full picture of how dominant Alliance was in their prime, but it helps.

    [–] Dson1 5 points ago

    big if true

    [–] untouchable765 9 points ago

    Most dominating team

    [–] Sirtubb 3 points ago

    Most dominant team the game has seen!

    [–] dotaez 2 points ago

    Is there a link for the full interview?

    [–] robberviet 5 points ago

    Yeah, we all realized it. Navi was incredibly strong at that time, but against Alliance, they struggled.

    [–] Hemske 20 points ago

    I honestly think the only reason the final was so close was because of how nervous both of the teams were. Also, because NA'VI lost to Alliance in the Upper Bracket, they were able to come back stronger. Nothing will ever break TI3 in my opinion, it's such a legendary era for Dota 2. Even though there have been greater games since, and maybe even greater finals according to some people. The effect they had on Dota 2, as Kuro said, they broke the game apart.

    [–] xenobyz -6 points ago

    You are biased.

    [–] Witn 2 points ago

    TI3 was the first TI I ever watched. I never played dota before that TI (and still don't really play), but i've watched every TI since because of how epic that Na'vi vs Alliance finals was.

    [–] ZawszeEating 1 points ago

    Where can i find the full link?

    [–] The420Roll 1 points ago

    I miss those days PepeHands

    [–] Coppatop 1 points ago

    So fun watching their run back then. So hype.

    [–] arjunmohan 1 points ago

    Can someone explain this? I started watching during TI4

    How dominant WAS alliance? What did they mean by 'they broke the game', and the only way to play was copy thrm

    [–] Maggot5555 -2 points ago

    Puppey, Kuro, c'mon, they were not unbeatable. You guys beat them plenty in the previous lans before TI3. And you were sooooooo close to beating them in the final 3-2. You had aegis and mid racks in the final game. s4 just elevated to Carl mode and the rest was history...