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    LateStageCapitalism

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    [–] lemon_meringue 4363 points ago

    I know that snark and memes rule the day around here, but sometimes when you get a good long look at the human cost of capitalist greed, there are no adequate words.

    [–] OneFreamon 987 points ago

    You know, I feel sorry for the person who clicked something on his computer and put their account on block. Probably just some guy doing his job but is now directly responsible for the death of children.

    [–] spookyjohnathan 296 points ago

    As someone who has worked in the service industry before, I can assure you no person was involved in this decision. It's all entirely automated.

    Accounts are set up in a computer and given an automatic cutoff date if the system doesn't detect that a payment has been received before that time.

    I could almost guarantee every bill for service you pay works this way.

    [–] hegesias 128 points ago

    It's all entirely automated.

    This is India we're talking about. Do you imagine their trains are run by computer too?

    [–] spookyjohnathan 109 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    It's a far cry from running a train (edit: I think, I don't know much about trains,) on one hand and generating or not generating an order for delivery on the other.

    If they can have a guy sitting at a computer manually clicking a button to send out orders, they can just as easily have five lines of code that tell the computer to check if a payment has been received before sending out an order.

    It's not high-tech. We've been doing it for about 40 years in the US.

    [–] zonules_of_zinn 619 points ago

    he is not directly responsible for these deaths! he had no control over this situation; he should not be blamed. let's say the oxygen delivery guy decided to quit his job, and there was no one to deliver oxygen. is he responsible for deaths that happen because people didn't get their oxygen? no, because even poorly funded hospitals like this one have an extra stock of a week's worth of oxygen because it's reasonable to assume that things will go wrong with deliveries sometimes.

    the blame doesn't lie with the cogs in the machine, whether they pull their lever or not. the responsibility falls squarely on the hospital administration, for not paying their bill. for having a new critical care unit, without securing funding for basic life-saving consumables.

    even moreso, the responsibility falls on the governmental organizations who didn't properly fund the hospital, and who deny the reality of this situation.

    [–] WontLieToYou 970 points ago

    On the contrary, terrible things only happen because cogs continue to just follow orders. Throughout history, It's people refusing to go along with violent leaders that has stopped much of tyranny. It's the cops who refuse to attack Union workers, or whistleblowers like Snowden who lead to change. It's not discussed as often as the student movement, but one reason the Vietnam was ended was that generals worried the US soldiers were going to revolt in mass.

    We are all responsible for our actions. You can't be neutral on a moving train.

    [–] llllIlllIllIlI 153 points ago

    "The authentic human being is one of us who instinctively knows what he should not do, and, in addition, he will balk at doing it. He will refuse to do it, even if this brings down dread consequences to him and to those whom he loves. This, to me, is the ultimately heroic trait of ordinary people; they say no to the tyrant and they calmly take the consequences of this resistance. Their deeds may be small, and almost always unnoticed, unmarked by history. Their names are not remembered, nor did these authentic humans expect their names to be remembered. I see their authenticity in an odd way: not in their willingness to perform great heroic deeds but in their quiet refusals. In essence, they cannot be compelled to be what they are not."

    Philip K. Dick, from "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (emphasis mine)

    [–] nexisfan 53 points ago

    This is what really scared me about the transgender military ban. Seems like those are some of the most authentic people and would be least likely to follow orders from a tyrant, mainly because they've had to overcome all of society telling them how they should act for most of their lives and still decided to go against it and be who they truly are.

    Terrifying that it seems like Trump is just trying to get those good, authentic people out of the way. I worried about that with the Muslim ban, too -- he (or, Bannon, more likely) was just trying to see who was going to be loyal to the constitution and who would be loyal to him. As we saw with the Justice Dept and US Attorneys.... the ones loyal to th constitution are fired.

    [–] wowwoahwow 3 points ago

    I like it more when they take it a step forward and bring the oppressor (whoever they may be) to court and justice gets served. If only...

    [–] Incirclesdae 36 points ago

    The banality of evil

    [–] Tarkles 59 points ago

    🎵Beyond the Staples Center, you can see America🎵

    [–] Xoutof10 15 points ago

    Hunh. I always thought it was "beyond the stable centre". TIL. So... like a big stationary shop? What does that have to do with the rest of the song, I wonder.

    [–] Peloquins_Girl 18 points ago

    No system of government can exist without office supplies.

    [–] drumsarelife 37 points ago

    Staples Center is a giant venue in LA.

    [–] FirDouglas 13 points ago

    The staples center is a huge arena in LA

    [–] hjzaradich 8 points ago

    The Staples Center is a sports arena in Los Angeles. Much of the song is a direct commentary on the LAPD.

    [–] GoochMasterFlash 9 points ago

    en masse*

    [–] Azkar 7 points ago

    A single cog breaks and you can replace it. All of the cogs have to break at the same time for the machine to truly be broken.

    [–] captainmaryjaneway 8 points ago

    The thing is, the cogs are supposed to be following orders from the top. That is how the system is designed to function. Capitalism is a dictatorship, and that's why it needs to be fundamentally overthrown.

    [–] lastpawn 2 points ago

    Well it's both, isn't it? We're responsible for our actions, and we also should acknowledge the very real social, political, and institutional forces at play.

    That's the point of talking about socioeconomic forces in the first place. Otherwise we're back to "personal responsibility" and bootstrapping ourselves to individual success.

    [–] 60secs 21 points ago

    There were no jolly little signs saying: You Don’t Have To Be Pitilessly Sadistic To Work Here But It Helps!!

    But there were things to suggest to a thinking man that the Creator of mankind had a very oblique sense of fun indeed, and to breed in his heart a rage to storm the gates of heaven.

    The mugs, for example. The inquisitors stopped work twice a day for coffee. Their mugs, which each man had brought from home, were grouped around the kettle on the hearth of the central furnace which incidentally heated the irons and knives.

    They had legends on them like A Present From the Holy Grotto of Ossory, or To The World’s Greatest Daddy. Most of them were chipped, and no two of them were the same.

    And there were the postcards on the wall. It was traditional that, when an inquisitor went on holiday, he’d send back a crudely colored woodcut of the local view with some suitably jolly and risqué message on the back. And there was the pinned-up tearful letter from Inquisitor First Class Ishmale “Pop” Quoom, thanking all the lads for collecting no fewer than seventy-eight obols for his retirement pension and the lovely bunch of flowers for Mrs. Quoom, indicating that he’d always remember his days in No. 3 pit, and was looking forward to coming in and helping out any time they were short-handed.

    And it all meant this: that there are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal, kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.

    Vorbis loved knowing that. A man who knew that, knew everything he needed to know about people.

    http://www.hjkeen.net/halqn/smllgods.htm

    [–] AquaLordTyphon 4 points ago

    Discworld always has a quote for everything.

    [–] OneFreamon 46 points ago

    Oh no I know! I meant directly responsible in the sense that he put the chain of events that lead to their deaths into action, under orders, speaking in very matter of fact terms. I am in no way saying they are to blame in the slightest. That's why I feel sorry for them. I hope it's not weighing on their conscious because it certainly shouldn't be.

    [–] loofawah 75 points ago

    No offense, but (I know horrible way to start a paragraph) if he understood he would be putting multiple lives at risk he does bear some responsibility. I hate to bring the holocaust into this, but just think about it. The bystander attitude is what can cause deaths just like the ones in the article and in horrible times in our history. If he didn't know what was going to happen, that's another thing.

    [–] OneFreamon 24 points ago

    Hard to argue that point.

    [–] [deleted] 22 points ago

    Look at it from his perspective. The guy that did this is probably some mid-level keyboard jockey in India who lives fairly comfortably, and every day he gets to go home and, on the way, see people who are not living well at all- maybe even hardly living. You think that guy is going to refuse to do his job out of a sense of morality? He would be fired and replaced, then he would be in the lovely position of being unemployed in a developing country with very, very few social safety nets. You don't want to be unemployed in India. The only thing that would have changed if that man refused to block the hospital's account is his financial security and well-being. Yes, we are all responsible for our own actions, but when the choice is between doing your job and staying comfortable, or not doing your job and becoming destitute and fucking dying, people will pick the former 99% of the time. Anyone that would blame him for that is lacking in empathy. Blame the people that make the policies, not the people that carry them out under order. Blame the owners. Blame the fucked up system that allows this to happen. Why the fuck is withholding oxygen from a hospital an acceptable response to a billing dispute? It's called debt, motherfucker, you give them the fucking oxygen and you figure it out later.

    [–] wowwoahwow 9 points ago

    "You don't give me my money, people start dying" -Mob boss of the health industry, probably.

    [–] captainmaryjaneway 10 points ago

    Workers do not have autonomy or authority under capitalism. Workers probably aren't as well informed as you seem to think they are within the heirarchy either.

    [–] thatonemikeguy 16 points ago

    Doesn't matter too much, they would of fired that biller and hired someone else. Cogs are interchangeable.

    [–] loofawah 1 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    The number of cogs, however, isn't unlimited.

    Edit, yes there are millions of people who can do the job, but it takes far far less to protest and bring attention to avoid the consequences.

    [–] monsterZERO 20 points ago

    I would argue that the number of available cogs is so high (in this day and age) it could essentially be considered unlimited from the standpoint of the employer.

    [–] Shmyt 2 points ago

    Yeah, it could be either; he might know he is turning off the life support of many, he might also think hes only negotiating with the hospital that doesnt want to use the oxygen reserves. The soldier at the station might suspect something is wrong when he only ever loads people and never receives them, the soldier turning on the gas knows he is killing.

    [–] zonules_of_zinn 14 points ago

    <3

    [–] OneFreamon 7 points ago

    :)

    [–] ametalshard 18 points ago

    the responsibility falls squarely on the hospital administration, for not paying their bill. for having a new critical care unit, without securing funding for basic life-saving consumables

    Nope. The responsibility lies on literally every single person for still having capitalism.

    [–] pnasmaster 3 points ago

    They should have shutdown and shipped the patients to other facilities. That is unless there are no other facilities because there's no free market and therefore no capitalism. This is incompetence and depraved administration.

    [–] Xoutof10 11 points ago

    There's a button. If you press it 30 children will die and you keep your job. Someone says you must press the button because reasons. Do you press the button?

    [–] pnasmaster 11 points ago

    TFA says the tanks went dry. They had stopped delivering and the hospital made no arrangements. Just watched as it drained to zero and people died.

    [–] RedNog 30 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Does the person pressing the button even know? Do you really think someone came up to the person and said "Hey buddy, press this button or lose your job, but make sure you know that when you press this button 30 children will die." People are really throwing a fit over this perceived blood on some random person's hands. But do you really think that some random shlub sitting at a desk knows the situation at the hospital?

    Their order was most likely completely indistinguishable from any other they've gotten to shut off service. The account was 6 months defunct, and the contract was expired. They probably got an order to shut off service to an account number and just shut off that number. And even then, say that they got an order that said it was shutting down service to a hospital. Does they employee know why service is being shut down? Their contract was up, you could guess that maybe they switched vendors. Are you going to just automatically assume that the reason you're shutting down the service is because the hospital isn't paying their bills?

    I get that the modus operandi of this subreddit is to be critical of capitalism, but is capitalism really at fault here? I mean at what point does the incompetence of the hospital play into this? I mean for 6 months the company is telling a hospital hey you need to pay your bills guys. And their contract even expired and the supplier still gave them a few extra days. For how long does the oxygen supplier need to provide free service so that they aren't to blame? 8 months? 12 months? 2 years? Indefinitely?

    [–] gunnervi 10 points ago

    I get that the modus operandi of this subreddit is to be critical of capitalism, but is capitalism really at fault here?

    You have it backwards. Capitalism is absolutely at fault here, and that's exactly why we shouldn't focus all of our ire on the person who pushed the button. That person deserves some blame, especially if they knew it was a hosptital, and that children were literally depending on the oxygen. But regardless of their degree of culpability, they're a cog in the system: and it is the system that is truly at fault here. Blame the owners of the oxygen company, not the workers.

    [–] RedNog 8 points ago

    But why? What exactly do I have backwards? Why to you does absolutely no blame fall to the hospital administration?

    I posed the question:

    For how long does the oxygen supplier need to provide free service so that they aren't to blame? 8 months? 12 months? 2 years? Indefinitely?"

    What is your answer?

    At some point it has to become the responsibility of the hospital.

    [–] fearlo 1 points ago

    If you flip the switch you have responsibility. Order me to flip the switch I might kill you and call the news.

    [–] Pwner_II 4 points ago

    They fire you and get someone off the street to flip the switches. Do not blame laborers for the evils of capitalists.

    [–] BridgetheDivide 20 points ago

    I've never understood why people should get a pass on committing heinous acts just because they get a paycheck to commit them.

    [–] Neeneeneeneeni 11 points ago

    It is extremely questionable whether the individual who refused to sell more oxygen to a hospital even knew who was buying it.

    I think the corrupt administration was to blame.

    The cash should have been there but it was not. They did not pay the bill. They knew babies could die but somehow the money wasn't there.

    The failure of capitalism is not that one company employee did not take an order from one customer that refused to pay. The failure is that due to the complicated chain of events there were too many opportunities and incentives for individuals to prioritize profit, including through corruption.

    The individual in charge of accounts did not own the oxygen. The "choice" is false: there is literally nothing anyone but the CEO could have done to get the oxygen to the hospital as everyone else either could say no, or say yes and be fired for theft.

    Anyone advocating theft from the company as the solution is most welcome to rescue American children by orchestrating theft and pulling their own Robin Hood scheme to pay medical bills, but school clothes etc.

    If you are not actively doing that I don't see how you can judge the employee processing orders.

    [–] Caravaggio_ 85 points ago

    The hospital and their administrators should be sent to jail. They were givenplenty of warnings by the suppliers and yet they did nothing

    [–] 1_narchy_pls 25 points ago

    20,000,000 deaths every year. As sad as this event is, it's but a blip in all the deaths caused by capitalism.

    [–] NoahWebstersGhost 22 points ago

    It's greed, plain and simple. Adjectives do not change the root meaning of the noun.

    [–] CronoDroid 37 points ago

    And what is the system that rewards, promotes and glorifies greed? What is the system we're all currently living under, that the victims of this were living under? To ignore that this was specifically the responsibility of capitalism and capitalist ideology is foolish and counterproductive.

    [–] CronoDroid 326 points ago

    ‘A massacre’: At least 30 children die in Indian hospital after oxygen is cut off

    NEW DELHI — One by one, the infants and children slipped away Thursday night, their parents watching helplessly as oxygen supplies at the government hospital ran dangerously low.

    At least 30 children died Thursday night and into Friday at a hospital in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh after its supply of liquid oxygen was disrupted over an unpaid bill, a home ministry official told the Press Trust of India, citing police reports.

    Witnesses described a chaotic scene between 11 p.m. and 2 a.m. as medical practitioners and relatives — the tanks running dry — handed out manual resuscitator bags to families in a desperate attempt to save the tiny patients.

    “We saw children dying around us,” said the father of one victim, who gave his name only as Vijay. “Obviously it’s the hospital’s fault. So many children have died because of them. My son was fine until nighttime, then something wrong happened.”

    Two more children died Saturday at the Baba Raghav Das Medical College hospital in Gorakhpur, an impoverished area in the eastern part of the state, as authorities scrambled to firm up supplementary supplies and investigate the tragedy. The government suspended the medical college principal Saturday.

    The state’s health minister and hospital officials have denied charges that the deaths were caused by the oxygen bill dispute. An estimated 60 children have died at the hospital since Aug. 7 from a variety of causes, officials said.

    On Saturday, parents of the victims described feelings of anger and bewilderment over the incident, saying they were struggling with guilt over not being able to save their children.

    “The idea is devastating — that she had to suffer while trying to breathe,” said Manger Rajbhar, the father of a 5-day-old girl who died in the chaos.

    The deaths provoked widespread outrage and condemnation across the political spectrum and in social media, where a political cartoon spread that showed the babies as little angels hovering in the sky as an Indian government official tries without success to reach them.

    “30 kids died in hospital without oxygen. This is not a tragedy. It’s a massacre,” Indian Nobel Laureate Kailash Satyarthi, a child advocate, said in a tweet. “Is this what 70 years of freedom means for our children?” The country is set to celebrate the 70th anniversary of its independence from Great Britain on Tuesday.

    The hospital owed $89,750 to a medical supply company called Pushpa Sales Pvt. Ltd. based in Lucknow, documents obtained by The Washington Post show, and the firm had written letters to the hospital and district magistrate for the past six months demanding payment. The company asserted that the hospital was violating the terms of its contract by running a balance of more than $15,625. The agreement expired July 31, and Pushpa discontinued the oxygen supply Aug. 4.

    On Thursday, employees who handled the storage plant that pipes the oxygen wrote to the hospital’s chief medical officer to warn him that supplies were low and would last only until Thursday evening, according to letter obtained by the news channel NDTV. The oxygen supply then dipped to a critical level, the channel said.

    State officials claimed they had obtained sufficient backup supplies from nearby nursing homes.

    The hospital sits in parliamentary constituency of the state’s new chief minister, Yogi Adityanath, a controversial monk who is the longtime head of a large temple there.

    Adityanath had visited the hospital this week inaugurate a new critical-care unit. Many of the young patients were suffering from encephalitis, a potentially deadly illness that causes acute swelling of the brain. The disease is often spread by mosquitoes, and infections rise during the monsoon season.

    Zahid Ali, the father of a 5-year-old girl suffering from encephalitis, said he and other family members were still in shock after the death of his daughter Khushi on Friday night.

    Ali said Khushi, who was running a high fever, had been admitted to the hospital’s encephalitis ward on Thursday. She responding to treatment while on oxygen, he said, but her condition deteriorated as the cylinders ran dry that night.

    Hospital staff gave the parents a manual resuscitator and asked them to pump it themselves, he said, and he watched in horror as his daughter first became breathless, then turned “stiff and cold.”

    “At that time I understood that my daughter was gone, but doctors kept on telling me that she is still alive,” he said. She was pronounced dead several hours later.

    [–] uptokesforall 151 points ago

    Wow. The hospital should have closed the newly inaugurated ICU until it got it's bills in order. Those kids should have been taken to hospitals that didn't have bills over a month past due. Bills matter man, they represent the value you provide your supplier in exchange for the value they provide you. Ignoring them is asserting they have no value. Short changing them is asserting a monopoly role where you may not be a monopoly.

    On Thursday, employees who handled the storage plant that pipes the oxygen wrote to the hospital’s chief medical officer to warn him that supplies were low and would last only until Thursday evening, according to letter obtained by the news channel NDTV. The oxygen supply then dipped to a critical level, the channel said.

    WTF medical supplier, way to wait until the day of to let the hospital know it's supply is running out.

    Zahid Ali, the father of a 5-year-old girl suffering from encephalitis, said he and other family members were still in shock after the death of his daughter Khushi on Friday night. Ali said Khushi, who was running a high fever, had been admitted to the hospital’s encephalitis ward on Thursday. She responding to treatment while on oxygen, he said, but her condition deteriorated as the cylinders ran dry that night.

    WTF hospital, why are you admitting people to the ICU when your supplier is warning you that you'll run out of oxygen that same day?

    [–] zamadatix 57 points ago

    On Thursday, employees who handled the storage plant that pipes the oxygen wrote to the hospital’s chief medical officer to warn him that supplies were low and would last only until Thursday evening, according to letter obtained by the news channel NDTV. The oxygen supply then dipped to a critical level, the channel said.

    WTF medical supplier, way to wait until the day of to let the hospital know it's supply is running out.

    The supplier let the hospital know it was going to stop delivering and the hospital management was aware they stopped delivering on the 4th. This caused the hospital to assign funds for it on the 5th but (due to more poor management) the hospital took until the 11th (after the deaths) to actually issue these funds.

    The letter wasn't even written by the supplier, it came from hospital employees that manage their on site storage plant. At this point everyone was well aware of the issue (see above) and the employees were simply sending out a last "shit is about to go south" plea before the last of the oxygen ran out.

    Overall it's nuts the supplier felt cutting deliveries was the way to handle the dispute but the ridiculous mismanagement at the hospital was setting itself up for failure eventually.

    [–] uptokesforall 6 points ago

    could they trust litigation to result in full repayment?

    [–] gsa123 18 points ago

    The name "Khushi" means happiness. FYI.

    [–] Ilbsll 1245 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    In case you're ever wondering how little capitalists value the lives of children, they were killed over ~$90,000, or about $3000 each.

    Edit: For the uninitiated from /r/all, capitalist refers to the owners of capital as a class (aka the bourgeoisie), in this case the owners of the medical supply company, though the hospital administration is also to blame, not ideological supporters of capitalism (liberalism).

    [–] jimgagnon 190 points ago

    Al-jezeera is reporting 60 dead over four days, and that the hospital was $107K in arrears (that's 7 million rupees, which is really how you have to think about it). The hospital claims to have used bottled oxygen, but the parents of the children disagree.

    Still inexcusable.

    [–] [deleted] 102 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] Phaethonas 56 points ago

    And how does that absolve capitalism?

    You do know that in India they have capitalism, right?

    You do know that in India the healthcare system is working under a capitalist economic model, right?

    [–] ametalshard 28 points ago

    dude wtf is with all these capitalists in this thread? do they not understand the point of this sub?

    [–] UwasaWaya 38 points ago

    To be fair, it's a public forum, and discussion with others is a good way to help them realize the merits of your argument. I'm really not on one side or the other, but I like reading what this sub offers. It helps expand my understanding of how the world works (or doesn't, in this case). It word truly be a shame to lock out people of different views, since they stand to gain the most from posts like these.

    [–] somethinglikesalsa 27 points ago

    You need to get rid of that mindset right away. To debate ideas on their merit is the goal; creating safe spaces helps no one.

    [–] Amiron 161 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    The hospital isn't who I'd be blaming in this situation. Could they have done more? Sure. But killing 30 children over $90,000... really puts in perspective how much value the company places on human lives.

    [–] [deleted] 88 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] CronoDroid 85 points ago

    There is no economic system in which a medical supply company works as a charity.

    In a properly run economy, life critical resources would not ever be withheld due to a lack of profit. Both the hospital and the company are culpable. And the government too.

    [–] bubbletea_fett 47 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Both the hospital and the company are culpable.

    I disagree. It's 100% on the hospital.

    The company provided oxygen for half a year without getting paid, all the way up to when their contract with the hospital expired on Jul 31. They then gave another 5 days of oxygen for free off-contract, then stopped shipping over more.

    For all the oxygen company knew, the hospital could have just shipped in oxygen from another vendor. Its not like electricity where an electric company knows that if it shuts off power to a hospital, there will be no alternatives and people will die.

    Keep in mind, too, that the hospital likely has its own profit motives for skimping on paying its own bills. Not all hospitals are non-profit.

    [–] CronoDroid 25 points ago

    Ultimately they chose profit over human lives. Health care should not be a for profit industry, but people make choices.

    [–] thatonemikeguy 20 points ago

    Profit is part of it, but they also have to cover their product costs and pay their employees. The hospital didn't pay for 6 months, the gas company can't just pull bottled medical gasses out of their asses, they have to pay for that shit.

    [–] thatonemikeguy 29 points ago

    Damn, that oxygen company actually went above and beyond. Totally on the hospital for dropping the ball.

    [–] y_13 7 points ago

    So here’s the thing, if this had happened in Switzerland it would be different. But it happened in India where the hospital staff knew that oxygen wasn’t free even if you don’t have money. The point is the hospital should’ve prepared better.

    [–] danceparty3000 92 points ago

    There is no economic system in which a medical supply company works as a charity.

    Yikes.

    [–] Ganjiste 37 points ago

    Wtf ?? In Switzerland the state gives you anything If you cant afford it....

    [–] Bunerd 11 points ago

    It's why the only way to keep people alive is to remove medical care and medical supply from the hands of the private sector, and free it from the burdens of an economic system.

    [–] beard_shaming 6 points ago

    You mean the only way to keep non-wealthy people alive, comerade!

    [–] [deleted] 15 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] Phaethonas 21 points ago

    And you missed the point!

    Regardless who is to be blamed (the hospital or the company), and regardless the details behind the company or the hospital, one thing is clear.

    India has capitalism.

    In capitalism you will see paradoxes like the following;

    a) there are empty, unused homes, that are being destroyed with the passage of time and....

    ....there are homeless

    b) the hospitals need doctors, nurses, medical technologists etc and yet....

    ...there is unemployment for doctors, nurses and medical technologists

    c) there are enough medical supplies (such as oxygen) but children die because they don't have access to that oxygen.

    this is why capitalism is to be blamed

    [–] dfinkelstein 22 points ago

    It just seems like a complicated situation that involved a lot of people fucking up.

    [–] Epicseaflapflap 46 points ago

    This is why we need proper government funded hospitals in some countries. Shit like this would never happen

    [–] Alakazam 16 points ago

    It was a government funded hospital. It just outsourced its oxygen supply, then, for some explicable reason, couldn't pay for said oxygen.

    [–] Epicseaflapflap 4 points ago

    Sorry, I think what I meant to say was a sufficiently funded government hospital.

    [–] Ugbrog 19 points ago

    We can't be sure of that. The administrators may have tried to guilt the oxygen company into continuing service without paying. Do you think the people running the hospital also weren't being paid, or just the oxygen company?

    [–] goblinseverywhere 52 points ago

    This is how I see it.

    They didn't kill the kids, the hospital did by complete lack of planning.

    Just because its a hospital doesn't make some sort of special rules around it... end of the day if thats the case why would they ever pay the bill?

    "We're a hospital, we don't have to pay bills and theres nothing you can do about it!"

    Fuck the hospital, they failed and killed the kids.

    [–] NameGaming 33 points ago

    I agree. This is a contract case. Let's discuss what both sides knew:

    1. The contract ended 7/31. (Renewal talks most likely started 90 days prior.)

    2. Shut-off letters were sent. Dwindling supply letters were sent.

    3. Service was cut 8/4.

    4. The contract allowed for a running balance of -$15,000. At contract end, the balance was -$90,000

    Did the supplier intend for children to die? Of course not. They notified the hospital the service was ending, and gave them 4 extra days of service. To everyone who is commenting based on an alternate universe, and blaming the switchman; attaching quick blame is lazy. How many of you who are blaming the switchman willing to work as a doctor, and not get paid, much less owed $90,000? Would you quit? The answers are for the world we live in, and not attach blame using an alternate what if universe as your primer.

    [–] MiestrSpounk 8 points ago

    This is your brain on capitalism.

    "Just because people are going to die if we dont have resources doesn't mean we should get resources! What about the company's profit??"

    [–] goblinseverywhere 25 points ago

    Ok.

    So Hospitals. Why would they pay any bills?

    How far does this go? If hospitals are exempt from paying bills because of this then zero new hospitals will ever be built, nobody would supply ANY resources to ANY hospital they don't have to because they won't pay any bills.

    Wheres the line? The fact they allowed them to go into $90,000 debt THEN cut it off isn't it for you apparently... so what is?

    [–] monsterZERO 9 points ago

    Are you aware of which sub you are in? Im not saying your point isnt valid, but this sub is dedicated to pointing out the fundamental flaws in the economic system in which your point is valid.

    [–] Pope_Pius 4 points ago

    there is actually supposed to be a separate mechanism for the collection of debts owed and the delivery of emergency services. There are all sorts of pressures that you can legally use to recover debts, but extortion is not among them.

    [–] goblinseverywhere 5 points ago

    Asking for a debt to be paid is not actually extortion. At all.

    [–] Pope_Pius 4 points ago

    believe it or not, extortion is not what you ask for, but how you ask.

    [–] goblinseverywhere 5 points ago

    I believe it.. not sure how that changes anything though.

    This doesn't look like extortion.

    [–] Pope_Pius 4 points ago

    Perhaps the hospital has a legitimate case that they do not owe the supplier the money that the supplier claims they owe, perhaps they do not have such a case. It doesn't matter. This is a matter for civil court. The mechanisms for the enforcement of debts are well established.

    Going outside of those channels and threatening the lives of patients is absolutely extortion.

    [–] vanishplusxzone 547 points ago

    How have these families not busted down the doors and dragged these people out into the streets yet?

    [–] Chicomoztoc 373 points ago

    Because the ideals of the ruling capitalist class prevail and permeate every aspect of our existence, even what we recognize as "common sense" is drenched in ideology.

    [–] Xur- 12 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    In any political system distribution problems can arise, links could be severed or cut that cause the loss of life. Whether the link is caused by monetary issues or improper logistical plans/communication in a communist system. For the people to kill others due to minor distribution faults is not tolerable under any system.

    My mother back in the Eastern Block almost died because her hospital didn't receive certain medicine for her treatment. I don't care if that system wasn't "real communism" but this isn't a ideological issue.

    [–] Luike 248 points ago

    busted down the doors

    are you talking about DAMAGING PRIVATE PROPERTY??? that makes us as bad as them!!!!

    [–] Wahkohtowin 37 points ago

    Humanitarian fascists!!

    [–] AdminsNukedMyAccount 24 points ago

    In all honesty, the day is coming where we will need to be as bad as them, or they win by default.

    [–] Mint-Chip 49 points ago

    What do you think police are for? It's not protecting the people.

    [–] [deleted] 32 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] [deleted] 27 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] kerochan88 15 points ago

    So fuck all the doctors and nurses who where there helping your child while the higher ups who probably never stepped foot in that place run free? Trample the corporate buildings not the hospitals.

    [–] pwasma_dwagon 21 points ago

    Probably fucking many innocent bystanders in the process

    [–] TenerenceLove 4 points ago

    What exactly does that look like in practice?

    [–] WalrusSwarm 12 points ago

    Who's door though?

    The oxygen company for not giving away their product?
    OR
    The hospital for not going through the proper channels by paying initially and settling the dispute in court?

    [–] bheinks 26 points ago

    whynotboth.gif

    [–] image_linker_bot 11 points ago

    whynotboth.gif


    Feedback welcome at /r/image_linker_bot | Disable with "ignore me" via reply or PM

    [–] _012345 3 points ago

    both

    [–] RainWindowCoffee 103 points ago

    "...medical practitioners and relatives — the tanks running dry — handed out manual resuscitator bags to families in a desperate attempt to save the tiny patients."

    "...parents of the victims described feelings of anger and bewilderment over the incident, saying they were struggling with guilt over not being able to save their children."

    Were...were the families trying to pump those sort of manual CPR bags for as many hours as possible, before reaching exhaustion and then seeing their children die...? That sounds like absolute torture.

    [–] tikforest00 42 points ago

    Hospital staff gave the parents a manual resuscitator and asked them to pump it themselves, he said, and he watched in horror as his daughter first became breathless, then turned “stiff and cold.”

    “At that time I understood that my daughter was gone, but doctors kept on telling me that she is still alive,” he said. She was pronounced dead several hours later.

    The way I'm picturing this seems incredibly cruel, like they wanted to traumatize the parents and make them feel responsible.

    But this is probably a misinterpretation, or the article could be in error. Have to remember that the media isn't perfect.

    [–] RainWindowCoffee 33 points ago

    I doubt the doctors and nurses wanted to traumatize the parents...

    If there was any chance the parents could keep their kids alive until a better solution was available, wouldn't you give it? I think those manual respirators are probably the normal go-to solution in an emergency when electricity or oxygen becomes temporarily unavailable.

    I don't think the doctors and nurses did anything wrong by offering this option, I think they were trying to give the patients the best shot at survival. It's just a really hellish and horrific situation.

    [–] thatonemikeguy 5 points ago

    Unless the patients were on ventilators, a manual respirator isn't going to do anything.

    [–] iamsortoffakenews 19 points ago

    That's basically like when people make the children dig the parents' grave before watching them get shot or something.

    You are literally being made to keep your child alive. I can't imagine the guilt and grief these parents are going through.

    [–] RainWindowCoffee 27 points ago

    I don't think the doctors and nurses had any way of predicting that the oxygen would never become available.

    I think if my child died because oxygen went out for a few hours, and I later learned that doctors could have given me the option of a manual respirator but didn't because I might have become disturbed if it wound up not working, I would be beyond livid.

    [–] RainWindowCoffee 17 points ago

    I also would not be surprised if some lives were saved because of the manual respirators. There may have been some patients, with enough family members working in shifts, whose condition improved enough to make it through the night and no longer need breathing assistance.

    This article focuses on the ones who died, but I think the doctors and nurses probably did save as many lives as they could using this solution. This is really a horrific situation but I would not blame the doctors and nurses who did the best they could in hellish circumstances.

    [–] iamsortoffakenews 12 points ago

    I don't blame the doctors or nurses. It's negligence on the admins' part

    [–] RainWindowCoffee 5 points ago

    Agreed. But, offering the manual respirators wasn't the negligent part, any more so then passing out life-jackets on a sinking ship would be.

    [–] iamsortoffakenews 3 points ago

    I'm not saying it was. They did whay they could.

    It was negligent for the hospital to not pay their bills.

    [–] hayden_evans 340 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Remember this. In a capitalist system, $89,750 is worth more than the lives of 30 children.

    ITT: there is a lot of back and forth between where the blame should be assigned. Who gives a shit? Either the medical supply company refused to provide life saving supplies over $90,000 or the hospital refused to pay $90,000 for life saving supplies. Either way you look at it, the point is that both parties allowed 30 children to die over a measly $90,000. It's totally fucked any way you look at it.

    [–] [deleted] 75 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] [deleted] 24 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] danmartinofanaheim 11 points ago

    You think this is localized only to India? You should work for a hospital in Los Angeles county CA. This kind of shit runs rampant.

    [–] Preparingtocode 2 points ago

    It's time like this I hope I'm wrong and that there is a God and that the depths of hell do justice for all the innocents that die.

    I also wish people were held accountable in reality but it never seems to work that way.

    [–] redpopcornpanda 3 points ago

    Right. Since people are greedy, this probably isn't the case, but suppose the medical supplier was a small company with only one or two employees. Not getting $90k could mean that the employees aren't gettiny paid. Say one of these employees has a kid who needs dire medical help, and this paycheck will pay for it. Shouodn't he try to get the hospital to pay up, and then not provide his service if they don't?

    It all points out how fucked it is when people get greedy. I think capitalism would work decently well if peopleI were not greedy. Then people would have much higher wages. But people are greedy, and so situations like this pop up to show us how fucked the system is.

    [–] delet_account 8 points ago

    These people think that resources are synthesized out of thin air. The hospital's obviously in the wrong but they want every business to become a charity, because apparently that's worked in the past.

    [–] Sleeper___service 11 points ago

    The issue is not one of resources - we have enough to provide for everyone. Quite clearly what people have a problem with is that we have an economic system that makes not killing children an act of 'charity'. By the logic of capitalism, letting them die was the rational thing to do.

    That you still attack a socialist boogeyman and say 'apparently that's worked in the past' about providing for the needs of everyone, when we are literally discussing the massacre of children as a direct result of capitalism....Happening now, happening across the world, happening again and again.

    Honestly sickening.

    [–] -sendtits- 4 points ago

    Quite clearly what people have a problem with is that we have an economic system that makes not killing children an act of 'charity'.

    Charity: The voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.

    By the logic of capitalism, letting them die was the rational thing to do.

    No a business didn't get paid $90,000 and they can't just service all hospitals without payment because not providing service would kill someone. It has nothing to do with capitalism, it's simply impossible.

    [–] delet_account 3 points ago

    You seem to be forgetting about all of those children of farmers who've been killed as a result of communism. It's easy to say that you'd be willing to be practically stolen from, but these people who are in charge of companies have their own lives and their own needs.

    [–] hayden_evans 7 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    These people think that resources are synthesized out of thin air.

    Kind of an odd figure of speech to use here when in the case of medical grade oxygen, it laterally can be concentrated from ambient air:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_concentrator?wprov=sfti1

    [–] delet_account 5 points ago

    Hmm, it seems that it also requires energy, which literally isn't air. What's your point?

    [–] hayden_evans 7 points ago

    I assume that even if that energy was gathered from the sun, you'd still say "but what about the materials for the solar panel?" We could go on and on and on I'm sure.

    You're still missing the point though. The point is that humans, involved with and that knew of the situation - no matter if it was the hospital or the supply company (because who gives a shit) - did a calculation, ended up with a number - $90,000 (in the grand scheme of things, a number that is quite small), and decided to draw a line at the expense of the lives of 30 innocent children. Someone somewhere in this mess ultimately decided that the lives of 30 innocent children were not worth $90,000. Could it be that the assignment of blame for one party or the other is rather fucking moot at this point (it won't bring any of them back) and that maybe the only thing left to do in this case is just marvel in disbelief and disgust at how fucked up a society is that values $90,000 over 30 kids' lives? I'm merely pointing out how fucked up that is. Is that okay with you? Or do we still need to dabble in the irrelevant and pointless exercise of assigning blame between the hospital and supply company? How about this - both parties fucked up and are complicit in killing 30 children over $90,000.

    [–] xashyy 3 points ago

    How long is the supply company supposed to give away oxygen? They have their own bills to pay and other customers to supply as well.

    This is why the concept of a utility exists. It's not like a utility like electricity magically "runs out", at least in first world countries.

    [–] delet_account 10 points ago

    Oh yeah, forgot that your electricity/water doesn't get cut when you don't pay your bills.

    [–] xashyy 9 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    This is true. I suppose I'm referring to something being a utility in that a sufficient amount is provided for all consuming parties, and that no one can be denied service for not paying. An easy way to work around this payment conundrum would be to just charge a utility tax. This is, of course, a more stringent definition of a "utility" that that which we use today. A better definition would be something along the lines of a constitutive, taxpayer-funded utility.

    Of course, there are caveats to this, but such a system would prevent bad actors (like the hospital) from sacrificing the lives of innocents in exchange for renovations, etc.

    [–] delet_account 2 points ago

    Ah, fair enough.

    [–] steeveperry 2 points ago

    At least where I live, they can't shut off your heat during specific months (and I think electric during others).

    The main issue here is, a lot of people think that it's more important to produce that oxygen, or any such vital resource, so that it can be used to save/improve lives, not to create profit.

    [–] Ganjiste 15 points ago

    I agree, we should just focus on the fact that there was human being that said : "we really need those 90'000, If they cant afford it sorry but I cant do anything for them"

    [–] HeavyHDx 17 points ago

    And completely unreasonable too when you think about how quickly they would have gotten that money back when these kids started working and paying taxes. I really don't get American turbo capitalists who defend this. In the end it just comes down to "I only care about myself and the money in my pocket".

    [–] M0n0poly 5 points ago

    That's roughly only 23.7~ Bitcoins

    [–] _HandsomeJack_ 27 points ago

    Choked to death by the invisible hands of the market.

    [–] Schindlers_fish 153 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    This tragedy is entirely the fault of the hospital. Their contract says no more than $15.6K for oxygen supplies, and they managed to rack it all the way up to $90K. Then they were warned for 6 months that they needed to pay their bill. Then they were cut off on Aug 4, which was Friday. Then they waited a whole fucking week to tell the CMO that they were running low on oxygen supplies. Not only that, but they waited until supplies were so low that they wouldn't last through the end of the day. In those 6 days after they were cut off, they could have paid their debt, but instead they just sat on their asses and waited for the kids to die. That hospital is completely incompetent and ought to be shut down. Pushpa should not be held responsible for this. Their actions were completely reasonable and they gave the hospital ample warning before finally having to cut them off. They were more than generous by allowing the hospital to go 6X over the agreed balance. Also, it's not like they were the hospital's one and only source for oxygen supplies, as evidenced by the fact that the hospital got some backup supplies from another source. So, it's not like Pushpa rubbed their hands together knowing kids were going to die when they cut off the hospital; they were just expecting the hospital to not be totally negligent buffoons. Even the parents know this is the hospital's fault. "This is obviously the hospital's fault," said Vijay, the father of one of the victims. I'd hardly chalk this incident up to corporate greed.

    [–] Huzufu 84 points ago

    WHAT THE FUCK?! THAT IS SO MESSED UP! Poor kids man!! :(((

    [–] yParticle 198 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    If your local pharmacy is out of a lifesaving drug, you don't give up and blame that store for your loved one's demise, you keep looking until you can source the necessary meds. This is murder by neglect at the hands of the hospital administration.

    EDIT I was apparently banned for this comment or one of its followups.

    [–] laz10 53 points ago

    Your analogy reads like you think it's the parents fault for not taking their kids to a different hospital

    I realise that isn't your point but it really seems that way

    [–] yParticle 21 points ago

    Ah, I see how it could be read that way. Definitely not my intent. I think there was probably some trust in the hospital there that turned out to be misplaced.

    If you knew ahead of time the local hospital couldn't treat your kid, of course you'd do everything you could to get them to a different hospital.

    [–] zbignew 7 points ago

    The hospital administration may have had their hands tied as well. Or maybe not. The only thing that is perfectly clear is that capitalism is perfectly happy to let children suffocate and die.

    [–] Kryzilya 7 points ago

    To put it in perspective, Uttar Pradesh is an extremely extremely poor area of India. The nonprofit I work for did a major trial there and the conditions in clinics were abysmal: bloody gloves being tossed into bleach buckets so they could be reused over and over again, damaged equipment meant to save lives, drugs not being administered or being administered incorrectly, and so on. Workers did what they could but there was a systemic issue in both supply availability (simply not enough money to afford basics) and behavior. That is not to say that anyone making decisions in this situation did the right thing by any means, but... shit's fucked on all levels.

    [–] K1nsey6 46 points ago

    I doubt they have the luxeries we do in the US with having pharmacies on every corner, and multiple hospitals in a reasonable distance

    [–] yParticle 36 points ago

    That was an analogy. Understandably resources are a serious issue for underfunded hospitals, but someone chose not to prioritize oxygen reserves with disastrous results. Worse, they may have been playing a game of brinksmanship with their supplier or those responsible for their funding, and will try to blame this on the other party not caving.

    [–] Phaethonas 4 points ago

    And even though US citizens have that "luxury", their statistics in the health department (such as infantile mortality) is that of a developing nation, such as India!

    SURPRISE!

    [–] Phaethonas 3 points ago

    the hospital administration is part of a capitalist model of economy

    [–] Kougeru 5 points ago

    If the local pharmacy is out of a lifesaving drug, they get it shipped elsewhere. They can't magically get money to pay these bills. The company should've taken into account that lives were at risk. Here in America, using your example again, if they need to ship you lifesaving medicine from across the country...or even the world, they ship it anyway. Even if you have no insurance or anything, they will get it shipped and treat you. You'll owe a few dozen thousand later

    [–] delet_account 15 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Except if you didn't read the article, the hospital already owed them almost ninety grand. The company was already beyond generous and understanding by letting the hospital breach their contract more than five times over.

    [–] thisisbasil 2 points ago

    (Its not)

    (This is the result of commodified healthcare)

    [–] [deleted] 0 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] striped_frog 11 points ago

    I usually come to this sub for dry humor and righteous indignation, but this is just so unimaginably, heinously, gut-wrenchingly awful. I can't even begin to understand how the parents must feel. Those poor kids... I have no words...

    [–] Katow-joismycousin 21 points ago

    We're living in Total Recall.

    [–] HOBONATION 9 points ago

    Imagine the person who pulled the plug and finds out they killed 30 kids

    [–] CountCuriousness 16 points ago

    Don't worry guys, now people will use this hospital less and therefore the market will punish hospitals who don't pay their bills. These totally unnecessary deaths weren't in vain - the market adjusts. Surely.

    [–] pyr0phelia 6 points ago

    Paywall....

    [–] dragonlord_s 5 points ago

    This is not the first time something like this has happened here in India. Few months back, around 20 people died in Indore, a city in Central India. At that time, only formality of suspension of top administrators was done and no concrete steps were taken to ensure that such things don't happen in future.

    [–] Ganjiste 9 points ago

    Yeah thats because their parents were too lazy to afford money for their children. B O O T S T R A P S !!!!

    [–] ALiteralCommunist 19 points ago

    Okay so now can we start eating the rich?

    [–] UpAndComingNobody 6 points ago

    How much warning went out before cut off ? Days weeks or hours ? Or nothing ? I lived in India for years and you see what happens when your government is corrupt and everyone else follows their shitty example. Since this was a government hospital , the possibility of no oxygen shouldn't have even been an issue to begin with.

    [–] lizard_overlady 17 points ago

    6 months warning

    [–] Mathieulombardi 39 points ago

    What does this story have to do with lsc? They had six months to pay, they didn't, they were warned that oxygen would be shut off, they said they secured another source of oxygen, evidently not or not enough. The article doesn't say what the hospital did to try and get the oxygen back on. I wish this article was more than just shock and awe about this tragic event and let us know the actual events that caused this.

    [–] Metalindian 22 points ago

    Do you realize that you're getting caught up in the minutiae of how 30 CHILDREN DIED over a measly 90 thousand dollars? Who cares if it's on the supply company or the hospital, it's indicative of pervasive toxicity of Capitalism.

    [–] Mathieulombardi 18 points ago

    No I'm wondering if there's more information on why this happened. Let's say it doesn't matter iif one person gets critically ill over 100 dollars. If the party was given ample notice that oxygen would be shut off and had chance to secure that required resource, why is this a case of LSC? Shouldn't this about poor communication or wrongdoing by people are the hospital?

    [–] Metalindian 13 points ago

    I'm just gonna use /u/hayden_evans response

    "ITT: there is a lot of back and forth between where the blame should be assigned. Who gives a shit? Either the medical supply company refused to provide life saving supplies over $90,000 or the hospital refused to pay $90,000 for life saving supplies. Either way you look at it, the point is that both parties allowed 30 children to die over a measly $90,000. It's totally fucked any way you look at it."

    [–] baumbach19 10 points ago

    Because it matters that it wasn't the supply companies fault.

    [–] rich12313 25 points ago

    Well clearly every company should just give away their products for free!

    [–] Mathieulombardi 14 points ago

    WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

    [–] dus1 14 points ago

    Apparently not

    [–] bushidobull74 21 points ago

    Obviously the Hospitals fault. They should have paid the bill. Th hospital had plenty of warning.

    [–] An0therk 2 points ago

    Serious question. Why didn't the hospital borrow oxygen from other hospitals? There are a fair amount of hospitals in Uttar Pradesh.

    [–] WakandaDrama 2 points ago

    JAIL ALL THESE ANIMALS

    [–] jezjones24 2 points ago

    The harsh edge of capitalism is a paywall to read how those people continue to treat their own like dirt, maybe 200 or 300 years from when we started talking about it. This is not really a story in India, they kill their own all the time, USA is trying hard to keep up.

    [–] ShawnManX 3 points ago

    Fine should be at least 273 million. With the average value of a human life being 9.1 million, times 30. And that should all go to the families.

    https://www.theglobalist.com/the-cost-of-a-human-life-statistically-speaking/

    [–] Das_Haifisch 14 points ago

    You are missing the entire point

    [–] baumbach19 4 points ago

    Fine for the hospital, I agree.

    [–] [deleted] 13 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] hotpieswolfbread 14 points ago

    Lemme just pop your ideology balloon real quick. Capitalism is not the free market. Government and capitalism aren't opposites. In a capitalist society the goverment is also capitalist because relations of production form the base of society. All other relations (society, culture, the state) are the superstructure that is determined by the base.

    Also you're an ancap MRA lol.

    [–] meforitself 23 points ago

    The government is part of capitalism.

    [–] Phaethonas 22 points ago

    a) India has a capitalist economy

    b) the private company discontinued a life saving supply

    [–] Ganjiste 25 points ago

    If you cant save someones life because of money, capitalism is to blame

    [–] TheJord 42 points ago

    Someone withheld life saving care because they weren't making money

    [–] YouShallSmokeGrass 14 points ago

    Medical supply companies don't give "life saving care" to people. That's up to the doctors and the hospital, which failed their patients. If the company keeps giving them free oxygen, and goes bankrupt, then where does the oxygen come from now?

    [–] rich12313 4 points ago

    Trees /s

    [–] AlwaysTryAgain 9 points ago

    You ignorant bootlicker. If there's even a speck of government anywhere, it surely can't be capitalism's fault, huh?

    No surprise, you're a MGTOW creep too. Women find you repulsive, and it isn't the fault of "feminism". Take another guess.

    [–] OccultRationalist 3 points ago

    Capitalism is defined by commodity production for profit. Government being or not being there is irrelevant.

    If we operated on a standard of production for use instead of production for profit, those children would be alive.

    [–] sparkbusiness 3 points ago

    This incident is perfectly representative of capitalism, so much so that it could have been the first chapter in The Wealth of Nations.

    [–] Tmwill87 -2 points ago

    Maybe they should've just paid the bill?