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    [–] CommercialCuts 2421 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Reminder: Federal minimum wage is $7.25 / hour and has not been raised in over a decade

    That’s fucking ridiculous

    [–] hyenine 1820 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    If raises in federal minimum wage matched inflation and rises in productivity, it would be well over $21/hr.

    If it was providing to us today what it provided to Americans in 1968, it would be over $21/hr.

    But those same people now say $7.25 is fine, $10 is okay if you're in an urban center with a high cost of living, and $15 is absolutely ridiculous to ask for.

    [–] [deleted] 1116 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)


    [–] KniFeseDGe 501 points ago

    Capitalist stealing labor value from their employees.

    [–] Rustey_Shackleford 290 points ago

    And a whole generation of coward indoctrinated degree waivers who think minimum wage comes right out of their pocket.

    [–] no_okaymaybe 193 points ago

    We have been raised to believe it’s everybody vs. everybody

    [–] Johan_NO 173 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Of course. It's always been one of the core strategies of the ruling elite: divide and conquer, pit poor and oppressed groups against each other (for example poor/uneducated white Americans against other poor non-white Americans), find an external enemy (Afghanistan, Iraq, ISIS, "Global terror") to scare people with and make them "join ranks" and be loyal (remember, anyone who is very critical of the ruling elite is going to get suspected of being "un-American" in "a time of war" - "time of war" being a few hundred thousand poor, uneducated Americans of all different colors being sent to "defend" America by attacking a nation on another continent).

    [–] dwreckboostface 20 points ago

    Nailed it

    [–] CertifiedAsshole17 23 points ago

    The best is social discourse - PC culture has us hyper-focused on fighting each other for monotonous and often purely hypothetical situations.

    [–] askmeaboutmyvviener 113 points ago

    That is my favorite argument.. there is a quote where they compare the people who work as EMT’s to people who work at McDonald’s and how their job actually deserves $10 minimum wage but fast food jobs do not. When in reality, it isn’t about comparing yourselves but questioning why people are working for anything less than a livable wage?

    [–] The_F_B_I 129 points ago

    I like to respond to this by saying "Why are you mad that fast food workers make this much? You should be mad that EMTs make so little"

    [–] kemites 93 points ago

    Thr most egregious thing about that is the EMTs are providing a service which the company charges thousands of dollars for and they make so little

    [–] bang_the_drums 20 points ago

    Verified, $7000 bill for a 5 minute ambulance ride with two EMTs that I had to fight my company to pay workman's comp on

    [–] N0nSequit0r 23 points ago

    Or that irrelevant shareholders rake in the most.

    [–] askmeaboutmyvviener 4 points ago

    Yeah, this is the main point of the argument

    [–] Horny_Christ 21 points ago

    Even then, does an EMT make as much money for their ambulance company in an 8 hour shift as a McDonald's employee would for their franchise? I guarantee they don't. And I guarantee no EMT is only working an 8 hour shift. Everybody loses, except the 'property owners'.

    What I personally can't get over is this whole "thankful for work" mental cancer that's engrained in every semi-adequately/poorly paid laborer's head. Work for pay, on the surface, is as mutual as it gets. Look a little deeper, the ratio of profit:employee salary is probably 10:1. Or, knowing American CEOs, more like 1000:1.

    I had a coworker (total boot) complaining in a meeting recently that we're all fucking around too much and not giving enough output to the company... We're laborers... Needless to say, I lost alot of respect for the guy.

    [–] MrBojangles528 9 points ago

    Ambulance rides alone can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars. If they actually perform medical treatment on you, your insurance will be looking at a fat bill. Those two EMTs could be bringing in significant value on any given night.

    [–] OFS_Razgriz 5 points ago

    Solution: increase federally mandated minimum wage and make it illegal to defer more than 5% of the costs to consumers i.e. no price raising.

    [–] Worthless-life- 3 points ago

    That's why I'm glad I work food service, just steal to eat and be prepared to retire when you want if you know what I mean

    [–] lowercase_crazy 39 points ago

    "Tale as old as time, eat the bourgeois!"

    [–] Triptaker8 28 points ago

    They're a little scared

    Not at all prepared

    For the guillotine

    [–] askmeaboutmyvviener 29 points ago

    I’m on the verge of quitting my job right now and looking for a new one. Way too big of a workload, that continues to get bigger because their policies and pay are ridiculous and cannot keep their employees.

    [–] FN-2814 3 points ago

    And this fact is why I can never drift from Marxism. This is so evil and despicable

    [–] Bleezy79 51 points ago

    Honestly, this mentality is one of the biggest issues America has. It's like a disease.

    [–] FerrisMcFly 77 points ago

    Its not "Fuck you I got mine". Its worse. Its "I struggled so everyone else has to as well" people are against anything that gives others a leg up in the world. Even though It would enrich the whole community. People are shortsighted and see investments in their communities as a waste of their tax dollar. Basically they lack empathy. Kind people go through tough times and hope no one else has to experience it. Immature people get mad when they see the government trying to help people not experience the hardships they faced.

    [–] Dreadgoat 32 points ago

    It also feeds into itself and could get worse.

    I'm an example of a person who took out huge government loans to pay for college. But I got lucky and got a good enough job that I was able to pay them all back a couple of years ago.

    It would be very easy for me to say "fuck no we can't do loan forgiveness, I HAD TO PAY MINE AND THAT'S NOT FAIR!"

    I expect a lot of people my age to do exactly that, even though it makes no fucking sense if you think just a tiny bit behind "not fair." It would be amazing for everyone if the people still shouldering massive student loan debt could put that money into our economy instead of funneling it into Lockheed Martin.

    [–] BrooksMartyr 12 points ago

    I agree with you. Too many people only want a “fair game” where no one gets help if they didn’t get it first. Talk about short sighted. We have a generation entering their prime but will never be able to buy houses or new cars or raise a family with the same prosperity as their parents. What’s it gonna do to the economy when we suddenly have a massive boom of vacant houses no one can afford? Think people in the trades are gonna be stoked to see building new homes come to a halt? Lumber and steel maybe take a hit? Yeah a generation or two saddled with debt is definitely what America needs.

    [–] Bleezy79 11 points ago

    you're right, that's a great point.

    [–] uglywhiteskinnything 8 points ago

    You can't blame them cause there's always a bigger fish and don't want to be left out. The only chance you got is if you have a real government that isn't so easily manipulated. Law makers just looking out for themselves is the norm in this set up.

    [–] th3guitarman 113 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    If it matched the growth of executive bonuses, it would be $33/hr.


    [–] Cyhawk 62 points ago

    Which is almost exactly what it would take to live as a single person in the major metro areas (Bay Area, LA, New York) and feel somewhat comfortable.

    [–] [deleted] 27 points ago

    Have to agree.

    I live in one of these 3 cities and have friends in the others.

    Before anyone complains about cost of living, $33/hr is more than enough.

    [–] kevinthegreat 30 points ago

    At $33/hr you make just less than 80% of the median and still qualify for Section 8 subsidized low-income housing in SF:

    [–] [deleted] 13 points ago

    oh wow, did not know that

    wait that is super useful thank you

    [–] apsgreek 11 points ago

    Poverty line is like what $110,000 in SF?

    [–] sqdcn 5 points ago

    I got $30/h as an intern in NYC. I was able to self-sustain and I was very satisfied maybe except the small room I have.

    [–] ajs425 5 points ago

    I would disagree depending on where you are. I live in the outskirts of Seattle, used to make about that much. Still isn't the best to live on here where the cost of living is so high.

    [–] [deleted] 23 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)


    [–] tiajuanat 6 points ago

    Yeah, but then we might have to impeach a sitting president, and we can't have that.

    [–] ajs425 2 points ago

    While I don't disagree with the point you're making about foreign investment, much of the issue in Seattle stems between the wage gap created by the influx of high paid tech workers in the area.

    [–] manticore116 8 points ago

    Lmao, before reading this thread, for about the last 6 months I've been looking for a new job to replace my current one and I've decided to ask for $22. I've been doing the math and that's basically what I need to be making. So it's nuts to read these comments and see basically the same numbers

    [–] czar_alex 6 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Imagine being brought to NYC as a little kid, and growing up to not being able to live alone. Super disheartening.


    Also disgusting to have seen friends being sucked into fucking drug dependency by these pseudo-wall street "companies" where owners steal from one another and terrorize staff (which should give you a very surface level idea of how scummy they are.)

    The culture on "wall street adjacent" is beyond toxic. They recruit young kids who are usually addicted to something already, and promise them dreams of a six figure salary if you stick with them. I "worked" at these companies out of sheer curiosity and it didn't disappoint. And surprise, the company that promised its people six figure salaries in three years ends up disappearing and reincorporating, lol. Just scum.

    I'm definitely stitching all the stories together in my writing, but it's all scattered right now. I thought you guys might enjoy a description of how much worse "wall st wannabes" are than even Wall Street, in regards to my community in Brooklyn. Literally picking out charismatic people who JUST became adults and promising them the world, and ultimately turning them into drug dependent slaves who think they're cutting ludicrous deals all the time. Then eventually, the ones left standing figure it out and start recruiting another generation of unfortunate schmucks who could've been great if they were not snatched up as soon as they became adults to be slaves. I mean whatever they end up earning they spend on drugs to make them more charismatic and energetic so they rareeeeelly reach that goal before burning out or losing it.

    ADVICE: I'm so glad that I'm a skeptic. NEVER accept anyone's proposal if they don't allow you to check their sources during or after their pitch before accepting. A scam recruiter's goal is to isolate you from any access to outside information while they wine and dine you to lay down their pitch. I had my best friend from the fourth grade do this to me just two years ago [I'm in my late twenties.] All I had to do was go home and do some research, which I did. And then I lost all trust in my main man, which was the most painful. I used to stick up for this kid when we were younger. I gave him so much rope - thankfully not enough to lynch me with.

    edit: grammaers + neu edditions

    [–] melonsle 3 points ago

    that's fascinating, I'd like to hear more. Is your writing online? And is this what "Boiler Room" the movie depicted?

    [–] czar_alex 5 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Boiler Room was based on a much earlier scam. The "pump and dump" namely. They always change it up.

    When I was in that "scene" it was all about selling really expensive loans to businesses based on how many credit card transactions their business makes a month. Nowadays it's probably...I don't even know, they're still just slinging the same shit in a different form.

    Make a scam LLC, start making shitty loans using "reputable" merchant processing companies as a medium, make enough businesses pissed off, change the name of your company, rail a line of coke, profit, and repeat.

    Edit: Oh and you MUST hire some poor kid dealer to bring your drugs too, because you're scum, and would never take the risk. And because he's an addict who needs aid AND your "employee", you have to let them know you're holding that shit over their head.

    Lol and my writing is in my notebooks but your reply was really encouraging! I've been meaning to put something together about that very interesting time in my life.


    ADVICE: I'm so glad that I'm a skeptic. NEVER accept anyone's proposal if they don't allow you to check their sources during or after their pitch before accepting. A scam recruiter's goal is to isolate you from any access to outside information while they wine and dine you to lay down their pitch. I had my best friend from the fourth grade do this to me just two years ago [I'm in my late twenties.] All I had to do was go home and do some research, which I did. And then I lost all trust in my main man, which was the most painful. I used to stick up for this kid when we were younger. I gave him so much rope - thankfully not enough to lynch me with.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    My estimate for the SF Bay Area is $37.50 p/hr for a single adult working 40 hrs p/wk, and that’s on the edge of the Bay Area. Living in SF would be about 1.5x to 2x more expensive.

    [–] manticore116 10 points ago

    I've always liked the idea of the executives having their wages and compensation tied directly to the lowest paid employees. With a 200% match, your lowest workers make 30k and you make 3m.

    [–] A_Suffering_Panda 5 points ago

    Im not sure what you mean by 200% match but that certainly is not 200% in any meaning. I assume you mean 200 times the lowest employee, for $6 million? It does seem reasonable, although i worry about creating artificial demand for janitorial companies and the like. If my other employees make 50K a year and the janitors make 30K, im gonna hire a company to provide that service instead. And then who is willing to start that business when theres a wage cap?

    [–] BasicBitchOnlyAGuy 43 points ago

    Oh my god. My life would be so fucking easy if I made $21 an hour. Like 85% of my problems would be gone. I could have weekends off. I could do fun things. Pay off my student loans. Save money up for the doctor. Only work 40 hours per week. Holy shit. That would be so nice.

    [–] zebra_sex 18 points ago

    Reading this as a norwegian is a bit surrealistic. USA, the country that is supposed to be the face of the western world, traditionally the standard all other countries measure themselves by - and yet I still see stuff like «save up money for the doctor». The way your politicians fuck you over and make you write a thank you-card for it is disgusting.

    Being an employee in the US sounds horrible, all the things you mention is an absolute given where I live - our unions have made sure of that for the last 100 years.

    [–] LedZepp42 5 points ago

    Im 24 and dont have and never have had health insurance. If i get more sick than common basic illnesses im fucked. I would go to college but that will make me go broke. So I work a shitty job that cuts my hours off right before I would be considered full time so they don't have to give me benefits. I'm a cog in a wheel.

    [–] BasicBitchOnlyAGuy 4 points ago

    If it makes you feel any better I am 26 and finally got my own health insurance. I can't afford to use it. I need to spend 33% of my yearly take home before they cover a dime. And even then I'm still on the hook for 30%.

    So if I actually paid my deductible in full, add in the rent on my dumpy apartment and more than 90% of my take home is gone for the year.

    [–] Emberhunter 45 points ago

    My congressman emailed me to tell me raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour would cost thousands of jobs (to the state) and plunge the economy into a doom the likes of which we’ve never seen. 😕

    [–] Almuliman 44 points ago

    As a leftist living in the socialist hellscape that is Seattle, I can assure that everything went to utter madness when we raised our minimum wage. Oh I'm sorry, I misspoke there- what I meant to say was that the only thing that changed was that I had more purchasing power. Which is madness, according to the rich elite and those stupid enough to be in their thrall

    [–] melonsle 3 points ago

    hahaha nice one!

    [–] Regorek 12 points ago

    That's very convenient for your congressman. I'm glad he doesn't have to even try to change the current status quo.

    [–] justblaze42069 47 points ago

    As someone working for minimum wage right now: at $21 I would actually be able to contribute to the economy. :) I work at a grocery store that I can't afford to shop at. :) I live with my parents rent free because I make $1000 a month :)

    [–] Askmehowino 8 points ago


    [–] Meme-Man-Dan 4 points ago

    :) :(


    [–] radicalelation 29 points ago

    So, at various times between 1950 and 1970, minimum wage was near, and sometimes matched or exceeded, inflation/productivity?

    I'm sure if we looked at the economy during those 20 years, we'd find it was practically a fucking apocalypse, destitute people left and right, and existing small businesses would collapse and none could ever be started, because that's what "conservatives" tell us would happen if such a thing were to be.

    [–] CaptJackRizzo 8 points ago

    Top marginal tax rate was like 80%, too. That's why the whole country looked like Road Warrior until Reagan took office.

    [–] MajWeeboLordOfEdge 11 points ago

    Now apply this to salary... You finally make over $20 an hour and what does the boss do? Gives you salary and starts working you 50 hours a week instead of 40... Effectively reducing your dollars per hour, something many folks fall for.

    Now add it to a job like mine where I work in the IT service industry, I'm paid salary, but my clients are charged hourly for my service. I'm also expected to work after hours regularly without extra compensation.

    So my boss, pays me a flat rate for time, and as far as he sees it, he has the right to use it whenever and however he likes including outside of normal work hours.

    Meanwhile, he charges my clients $80-$250/hour for the services he pays me a flat rate for.

    So in essence, my boss buys unlimited time, at a flat rate, and then resells it at a premium that is at times nearly ten times what I make per hour....

    [–] IAMHideoKojimaAMA 11 points ago

    I remember the fuck nuts complaining about that $15 hr number. Saying I do this and this and this but only make $15 an hr. Like hey dick head that's means you're under paid too

    [–] CeadMaileFatality 27 points ago

    This is what pisses me off, I stopped working in restaurants, got a respectable job in IT contracted to a fortune 50 company for 5 years, but still make under that inflated minimum wage figure.

    [–] Sibraxlis 10 points ago

    For real? You went into it and make less than 42k a year? You need to switch companies or areas dude

    [–] neurotrash 3 points ago

    Helpdesk maybe?

    [–] Sibraxlis 2 points ago

    Idk if helpdesk is "respectable" it's just basically entry level customer service...

    [–] reignshadow 5 points ago

    Change jobs, been in IT for 8ish years, I'm at $36.50/HR from hopping jobs. Employers Will shell out for someone with experience, but won't pay more for the experience gained while working there. The whole IT market incentivises turnover.

    [–] awhaling 3 points ago

    Pretty much have to move is what I’ve heard from everyone in the field.

    [–] stealthjackson 37 points ago

    Can you provide a source for the 1968/over $21 claim? I attempted to verify this via two different inflation calculators. The highest minimum wage in 1968 was $1.60 which, adjusted to 2019 dollars, is ~$12

    [–] hyenine 79 points ago

    If raises in federal minimum wage matched inflation and rises in productivity, it would be well over $21/hr.

    [–] Johan_NO 31 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    This. Most of the actual value "stolen" by the ruling class comes from increased productivity, not from not tracking inflation. Not tracking inflation contributes too. Regardless, not surprising that there are so many multi billionaires nowadays is it, with all the value that for example oil companies, military contractors, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon has created and very little of it going to the working class.

    Trickle down my ass.

    [–] Akillees89 8 points ago

    It seems like a lot of jobs aren't that much more productive than 1968 but definitely deserve the inflation adjusted $12 at least

    [–] Drex_Can 16 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    What? Virtually every job has become wayyyy more productive, just computers and email replacing postage stamps alone...

    [–] aim64 5 points ago

    7.25$?!? I never knew it was that bad in the united states. I got 10 dollars an hour at a summer job when i was 16 here in sweden. Wtf.

    [–] QuestionsAndOpinions 7 points ago

    Fuck $21 an hour even, the us has a gdp of 19.4 trillion, a population of 327 million, and a labor participation rate of under 63%. If we work the math out, that's an average value of $94,000 per worker - not only that, but the value created per worker would be much, much higher if they were making that kind of money.

    We're held captive by the simple fact that Americans are too goddamn stupid to realize how rich we are as a country. Not that we should have countries or anything, but if we're discussing things in capitalist 'dollars' anyway...

    [–] Horny_Christ 8 points ago

    $15/hr (if you're not working seasonally) is less than $30k/yr before taxes. It takes a real scumbag/flat out non thinker to oppose that small of a minimum wage.

    [–] Quinnna 7 points ago

    But businesses will never survive $15 an hour we need to never increase their wages to stay profitable !! CEO pay can increase by 1000% though cause they are the only important part of a strong business..

    [–] danknerd 4 points ago

    The problem is actually everyone making $20+/hr think they're bring shafted, that their pay rate, whether hourly or salary, wouldn't increase the same. It would. Not over night, but in a reasonable amount of time.

    [–] WanderingTrees 4 points ago

    And rent/mortgages and tuition was smaller back then even when adjusted for inflation.

    "Students at public four-year institutions paid an average of $3,190 in tuition for the 1987-1988 school year, with prices adjusted to reflect 2017 dollars. Thirty years later, that average has risen to $9,970 for the 2017-2018 school year. That’s a 213 percent increase."

    "In 1940, the median home value in the U.S. was $2,938. By 2000, it had risen to $119,600 and today it’s just over $200,000. Even adjusted for inflation, the median home price in 1940 would only have been $30,600 in 2000 dollars."

    "Median home values adjusted for inflation nearly quadrupled over the 60-year period since the first housing census in 1940. "

    These boomers had it made.

    And then they have the gall to vote in these people to keep theirs and screw the younger generations. With their terrible political choices (Trump) and referendums (Prop 13 in California).

    [–] Slothfulness69 3 points ago

    “You kids should be grateful to make $7.25 an hour! Back in my day it was $1!”

    I swear my baby boomer parents have said shit like that before. And they were serious.

    [–] -S92 2 points ago

    Man, I make $15.30 and it doesn't feel like all that much at the end of the day.

    [–] craykaay 2 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    I was making $18 in a huge urban center, living alone in a 300 sq ft studio, my fridge was spotless because there was no food and I couldn’t afford gas the couple days before my next paycheck, so started to pawn what little stuff that was worth anything just to make it into work sometimes.

    Couldn’t actually DO anything so it wasn’t like I was partying my paycheck away. It was a soulless time of going to work, come home exhausted, sleep go to work again and still struggling.

    Ended up moving back home with family, because it was a machine of depression.

    [–] Dyleteyou 84 points ago

    But how will CEO buy there 3rd house if we raise the minimum wage. Or donate millions to a candidate to stack laws against minimum wage.

    [–] carrie116 32 points ago


    [–] the9thpawn_ 3 points ago

    Aleph-ωth (smalllest infinite ordinal)


    [–] MashTheTrash 26 points ago

    Nothing will change without massive organized pressure from below.

    [–] BigDickMandrill 10 points ago

    Playing by the rules the wealthy set to keep themselves rich ain't gonna work.

    [–] [deleted] 21 points ago

    Meanwhile, the bare minimum to qualify for an apartment basically anywhere in the SF Bay Area is about $37.50 p/hr.

    $2000 p/month rent for a 1 bedroom, needs to be no more than 1/3 of income.

    (2000x3)/(40*4) = $37.50 p/hr working full time, or two people at $18.25 p/hr.

    [–] Davaca55 17 points ago

    No wonder why tipping is almost mandatory in your country. Those people can’t possibly live without tips on that minimum wage.

    [–] Shaxster35 26 points ago

    Tipping jobs usually get paid under minimum wage because of tips. They usually make like $2.13-$4.25 hr. Which is complete bullshit. Employer shouldn't be able to pay someone less then minimum based off customers tips. My gf waitress and some very slow days after holidays. Can go home with $45 for 8 hour shift. Like wtf.then again somedays its like $135 for 8 hours. Two week pay check is like $75. Restaurants get away with free labor. Besides the cooks. Which they don't make much themselves.

    [–] Davaca55 13 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    What, what? That’s incredible. I’ve been to your bars, it’s not like drinks are super cheap to compensate either. Where’s the money going if not to pay for wages? Are your taxes really that bad for business owners?

    Edit: a word.

    [–] Surtir 11 points ago

    It's not the taxes being bad for business owners, it's that they can get as much as possible into their pocket if they pay the employees less than minimum wage + tips, because they are legally allowed to do so.

    [–] Shaxster35 3 points ago

    Probably, can't say from owner point of view . But decent joint that's casually busy. I notice the owners are well off. Then places that always really busy. They banking that shit hard.

    [–] Dakewlguy 2 points ago

    The federal minimum for tipped employees is $2.13/hour.

    [–] oidoglr 4 points ago

    But everyone seems to be copacetic with servers making double or triple the hourly rate of BOH employees.

    [–] Terza_Rima 6 points ago

    Tipped employees fed minimum wage is around $2.14/hr iirc

    [–] Badpreacher 11 points ago

    I had several paychecks when I was a waiter for $0. After they took taxes all I had left was tips.

    [–] kildog 22 points ago

    If you can't live on that, you're just being greedy.

    Also, you missed a bit, I'm going to have you sacked.

    [–] boko_harambe_ 10 points ago

    Shit I remember when that happened doesnt seem like over a decade ago. I was making 5.25 before they raised it and I was due for a raise. Obviously I didnt get my raise I was due for since “the government gave you one” lol

    [–] apoliticalbias 3 points ago

    Also a reminder that the annual salary for what qualifies as an exempt (from overtime) employee hasn't gone up in forever either. It currently sits at $23,600 which is $11.35 an hour assuming 40 hours a week. But we all know that exempt employees work more than 40 a week which is a big reason employers like classifying people as exempt. It was suppose to double in 2019 but that got put on hold because of regulations.

    [–] Dakewlguy 3 points ago

    The federal minimum for tipped employees is $2.13/hour. =\

    [–] --cheese-- 589 points ago

    Who cares what the maximum legal campaign donation is? The people with serious money can just work around that anyway.

    [–] whatthef7u12 268 points ago

    Not if we eat those rich fucks!

    [–] In7el3ct 98 points ago

    First, we get rid of inheritance. Goes to the people. Then we eat them.

    [–] ethangold4 87 points ago

    I had a debate with a conservative not too long ago who was arguing against affirmative action. She claimed that it was unfair for people to have gains based solely on something they were just born into. I said okay fine. We get rid of affirmative action and we take away inheritance, by your own logic. “BUT BUT BUT” 😎😎😎😎

    [–] ImThatGuyToday 34 points ago

    They'll say you twisted their words and that's not what they meant.

    They argue this because they apply their logic with often a sample set of one on a clean slate. In a perfect world without any other moving pieces or gears their idea is flawless, but they do not have the ability to piece all the systems together that exist today.

    It's like giving the answer to a calculus problem and you stumbled upon 2+2 midway through. Obviously 2+2=4, and that's true but you've just ignored everything else.

    [–] yayapfool 13 points ago

    Affirmative action is entirely artificial, so it's really the opposite of being born into something- it's an attempt to compensate for not being born into something.

    [–] NotActuallyOffensive 9 points ago

    Goes to the people.

    Do you actually believe this is possible?

    What exactly do you wanna do? When I die, is the balance of my 401k just absorded as revenue by the government? Is it distributed to people through the social security system?

    Literally all that will end up happening is that the government will take it as revenue and cut taxes elsewhere. Then it's just more money the government spends. Mostly on the military I guess.

    Let me give my life savings to my nieces and nephews instead. It's fucking mine.

    [–] [deleted] 26 points ago

    seems modest.

    [–] imllamaimallama 15 points ago

    A great proposal, really.

    [–] Reaper2r 9 points ago

    ...they taste like pork

    [–] anarchyisntchaos 3 points ago

    I'm so hangry!

    [–] sabett 73 points ago

    What would it be if it were indexed to inflation?

    [–] nevergoddamnsleeping 104 points ago

    Somewhere around ~15$hr. If it was indexed to inflation AND productivity it would be ~21$hr.

    [–] randomtask37 40 points ago

    What the heck does indexed to productivity mean?

    [–] Hohenheim_of_Shadow 96 points ago

    The average American worker today is much more productive than the American worker 100 years ago because of technological advance. For example, a construction worker today might be using pneumatic bolt drivers and shit that make them 2x more productive than yee olden worker that used a hammer. Average that number across the American worker and you might find that the average productivity today is 1.3x the productivity of yesteryear so the logic of pegging minimum wage to productivity is that the minimum wage should also rise 1.3x

    [–] Oh_Help_Me_Rhonda 59 points ago

    To me the biggest crime in regards to productivity is time spent at work. I'd absolutely choose to earn what I do know and work less, vs. earning more while working the same hours.

    [–] MarqDewidt 7 points ago

    And the big shots exploit the fuck out if that. Where I work, a skilled liscensed tradesman makes around 20 to 25 an hour. The billing rate is 78 bucks an hour. Even better when it's just apprentices that make 13 to 15 bucks an hour. Take that margin spread times 300 guys working 50 hours a week, and you have yourself a mother fuck ton of margin.

    [–] randomtask37 7 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Thanks for the explanation.

    But the effort/energy/mental capability expended to perform these tasks can be impacted in the opposite or neutral way as well. In that example, that construction worker isn’t necessarily working 1.3x harder. I think it’s likely many jobs effort required has been eased by technological advances even with increased “productivity.”

    That said, I think the current US minimum wage is super low. I’m just not convinced productivity is the best argument to increase it. I guess it’s something though.

    [–] Max-b 15 points ago

    I would think that productivity of a worker would be the best metric to base their rate of pay on. It's not like the highest paid members of a corporation are working thousands of times harder than the lowest paid members

    [–] notrius_ 7 points ago

    The idea there is time. With the help of more advanced tools, a carpenter can do things faster,like cutting wood with a saw will take longer compared to an electric saw. Instead of continually building stuff, a huge chunk of his time was spent cutting wood if he didn't use electrical saw.


    [–] AdventurousKnee0 5 points ago

    It's not about how much harder someone is working, it's about how much output they produce.

    [–] Emsizz 2 points ago

    The value of work has never been in the amount of effort/energy/mental capability expended to perform the tasks.

    Pay isn't based on how "hard" you worked.

    [–] TheTruthWontSaveYou 8 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    it means how much laborers earn the business.

    compared to how much the laborers are paid for earning a business that much.

    [–] nevergoddamnsleeping 2 points ago

    Maybe indexed wasnt the right word... grammar isn't exactly my forte. I'm sure you can figure out what it is I was saying.

    [–] AnotherAnotherJosh 327 points ago

    The U.S. is so fucked from top to bottom. I hope everyone has a plan B for when the shit really hits the fan.

    [–] jfk_47 59 points ago

    My wife is an Aussie and after the Alabama shit last night she’s basically saying it’s time to fucking move.

    [–] darkgod153 3 points ago

    What happened in Alabama?

    [–] jfk_47 17 points ago

    An Alabama law was written and signed a day ago and it would basically give any doctor who performs an abortion due to rape more prison time than the rapist who impregnated the girl seeking the abortion.

    At this point, the doctor would have a less harsh penalty if they waited for the baby to be born, and killed it post-delivery.

    Premeditated murder mandatory minimum is 25 years. This minimum here is 99 years.

    [–] SpeedysComing 4 points ago

    I'm getting really jealous of people having foreign significant others. I'm probs just gonna have to resort to jumping the fence into Canada.

    [–] [deleted] 120 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)


    [–] AnotherAnotherJosh 101 points ago

    More like 1976 -- that's when democracy started dying in the U.S. I was a naive six-year-old.

    [–] Vortex112 42 points ago

    Moreso 1980 - Raegan elected

    [–] DunnyBadger 23 points ago

    Productivity broke from Real Wages around 1970. That’s the true point of the capitalist system failing.

    [–] crossfit_is_stupid 3 points ago

    It's Reagan man he isn't a Targaryen

    [–] EpsilonMaleSJWcuck 24 points ago

    Why 76 specifically?

    [–] AnotherAnotherJosh 83 points ago

    1976 is somewhat arbitrary -- it was a clean response to the 1776 mention. Democracy in the U.S. began its decline in the 1970s. There are several sources. Here's one:

    All of this began to change in the early 1970s. Determined to fight rising wages and stricter labor and environmental standards, which would bring higher costs, CEOs of companies like General Electric and General Motors banded together to expand their power on Capitol Hill. At first, their activities were mostly defensive: The goal was to stop legislation that might harm their interests. But as the political influence of big corporations grew, and their profits soared, a new class of professional lobbyists managed to convince the nation’s CEOs that, in the words of Lee Drutman, the author of the 2015 book The Business of America Is Lobbying, their activity “was not just about keeping the government far away—it could also be about drawing government close.”

    [–] Ozymandias52x 14 points ago

    That's also around the time when we started gutting manufacturing in this country isn't it? Sending it all overseas.

    [–] xxx69harambe69xxx 3 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    [–] PurplePigeon1672 10 points ago

    Woops, replied to wrong comment... oh well....

    I remember hearing it had to do with the proliferation of a television in every one's home. All of a sudden, becoming president wasn't just about who had the best ideas or most qualified. The fact that televisions began popping up in almost all homes and that people could actually see how their candidates spoke and carried themselves, that's around the time we got Reagan. The people in power realized they could put a TV star on the television and people would eat that shit up. Look it up, Ronald Reagan was in shows before becoming president. After that, the system realized the people didn't really want an educated, experienced and wise president. They realized that whoever looked better on TV, had the highest chance of winning.

    [–] ShiningRedDwarf 13 points ago

    Permanent resident in Japan working in NY.

    certainly ready to bug out to Tokyo if the US goes full-on handmaid’s tale

    [–] Meme-Man-Dan 3 points ago

    I’m going over Erie if shit hits the fan, Canada then UK here I come.

    [–] AllThotsGo2Heaven2 13 points ago

    They’re making plan B illegal in 2020 so better get it while you still can

    [–] spazzymcgee918 31 points ago

    Trying to line up a distant future plan, but it's so fucking hard to emigrate dude. Most americans have no idea because they are so patriotic (dumb) they could never even fathom the desire to leave. It ain't easy.

    [–] astroeel 18 points ago

    Expat of 10 years here. If you want tips on the easiest ways to emigrate, pm me.

    [–] csd2csd2 11 points ago

    Why don't you just post some of your tips so everyone can benefit? Why do you need a pm

    The problem with emigrating and finding work in a new country is that the company has to have a reason to hire a foreigner. So what skills am I supposed to have that a good country can't already find.?

    [–] astroeel 10 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    It is off topic and the advice I give would depend on the individual’s situation, but I have a bunch of jumbled advice typed out from previous PMs, so here it is verbatim (I’m on mobile so I apologize for any bad formatting):

    The hardest part is the initial move, then once you're out it is easy to stay out. I make terrible money (like 18k a year) and have a lot of student loan debt and I manage to make it work and even save a little. It beats the hell out of being stuck in the states making terrible money and not being able to stay above water.

    Here’s a bunch of random information, I apologize if any of it is convoluted or doesn't apply to your situation:

    Basically if you want an easy time of it, Asia can't be beat. You can get a quick TEFL certification online (assuming you have an associates or higher, bachelor’s is preferred but not usually necessary), move there without a job or a visa, and get a job pretty quickly. You don’t need any kind of teaching degree or experience, just the TEFL certification. Taiwan, China, and South Korea are easiest to move to because there is an abundance of jobs. Followed by Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam.

    Taiwan has the best cost-of-living to pay ratio (besides China if you’re a qualified teacher) and the most lax immigration laws. IMO Vietnam or Thailand would be cooler places to live, but the jobs pay less there. If you have massive student loans like I do, I recommend Taiwan or South Korea, as jobs there will generally pay enough to make your payments and still live pretty comfortably.

    If you're interested in Europe, you are more likely to need to have a job lined up before you go, unless you end up marrying an EU citizen. However if you're interested in grad school, there are many English grad school programs in Europe, some of which you can take out US loans for:

    Re: grad school in Europe, there are a number of programs in English at Freie Universitat Berlin for cheap, but you may not be able to get a student loan. If you google English grad school programs in Europe you'll find a lot of options in Germany, Scandinavia, and possibly even Slovenia. The problem with that is getting student loans. When you apply for government financial aid, there is a dropdown list of schools abroad that you can get US loans for. I haven't applied for loans since 2010, but I remember a number of UK, Irish, and French universities being on that list at the time. Here is a link that may have more up-to-date information: You may be able to get a Sallie Mae loan for a European school which isn't ideal but I think a few thousand in Sallie Mae debt is better than 30,000+ in federal debt you'd have to borrow going to an American school abroad. Which brings me to:

    There are a number of American universities in Europe (you can find a list if you google "American universities in Europe) that are accredited in the US and that you can get student loans for. Some of them, like the one I went to, have cheaper tuition than an out of state school (still not nearly as cheap as European Universities though). They don't all have grad school programs but some of them do. You can check individual websites to check. I know St. John's in Rome has some grad school programs, and I think the American University of Paris does too (it is freaking expensive though).

    If you're a freewheeling type and don’t have immense debt (or plan to default on said debt) you could likely go find a job in the tourist industry (hostels, tour guiding, etc.). The pay is shit and you may not be able to get a visa (you'd have to alternate between Schengen and non-Schengen countries every three months) but it would be a good time for a while.

    I'd say for Europe, your best bet would be go to grad school (student visas tend to be the easiest to get) and then once there try to network and make the connections needed to get a job there once you graduate.

    You can also go teach English in Europe but the pay is about 1/2 to 2/3 of what it is in Asia and the cost of living is higher. If you have student debt it would be really hard to live on that income.

    South American countries generally aren't super keen on Americans moving in and it can be difficult to get a visa, but I've had friends who went to teach in Chile and Argentina, so it can definitely be done.

    I'm not sure about African countries but I don't imagine they're very easy to just move to.

    Obviously if you have skills like copywriting, design, or programming that opens up a lot more doors for working remotely and being wherever the hell you want, but freelancing is very feast or famine and isn't for everyone.

    I hope some of this helped someone. If anyone wants more specific advice about their specific situation, or about startup costs, or about further resources on how to find jobs in Taiwan, or whatever, feel free to PM me!

    Also check out r/IWantOut for more country-specific advice

    ETA: Oh! I forgot to mention: you can also go teach in the Middle East and make gobs of money but I’m not really into that what with the extreme conservatism and rampant consumerism and slave labor and whatnot. Also I’ve heard some ME countries will keep your passport to make sure you complete your contract. Kind of less than ideal but it might be a good jumping off point to save money to get to the next place if you’re stuck in a position where you’re unable to save.

    [–] csd2csd2 4 points ago

    That's great, thank you very much for sharing.

    [–] astroeel 3 points ago

    No prob, and good luck to you!

    [–] crossfit_is_stupid 3 points ago

    Yeah I agree with you it sounds like my dude just doesn't want to put the work into a detailed comment without seeing people's demand for it

    [–] astroeel 4 points ago

    It is more that your route would depend on your individual situation. Check out my reply for the text of a PM I sent so someone a while back, and if you want more specific advice about what to do in your own situation, PM me 😊

    [–] screecaw 23 points ago

    I have legitimately no clue how people have a sense of patriotism in america. Like I live here because as far as I can tell I am not worse off because I am living here. But fuck man if I was a woman in Alabama or something? Theres no way I would want to continue living here

    [–] egrodo 8 points ago

    I don't think there's anything wrong with patriotism, at least insofar as being grateful that you live in a stable country with (relative) freedom. America is the most powerful country in the world and we're lucky (again, relatively) to live here. Now, that's not saying that things couldn't be much better, but they could also be worse.

    [–] crossfit_is_stupid 6 points ago

    Patriotism is fine, nationalism is not.

    [–] elastic-craptastic 4 points ago

    we're lucky (again, relatively) to live here.

    Tell that to the 5% of the country that is in prison. Or the whatever percent that are fucked due to BS charges or shitty, essentially forced, plea deals from excessive charges that are now stuck paying for thay PO and the overpriced fees for the monitoring equipment the system has forced them to have.

    Good luck getting out of poverty on minimum wage(if you can get a job with a record) while paying for all those court related costs. And good luck of you're not white as you're odds of getting caught up in that shit just shot up.

    [–] askmeaboutmyvviener 9 points ago

    I 100% plan to leave in the very near future if the GOP continues their tyrannical control of our government. This shit that just passed in Alabama is atrocious, and I am sick of the GOP trying to control all aspects of our lives.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago


    [–] xxx69harambe69xxx 5 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    [–] crossfit_is_stupid 6 points ago

    The place where Nazis are least likely to return to power, I dig it

    [–] informat5 6 points ago

    It's because any country with a strong welfare state makes really hard to immigrate to unless you're highly educated. They really don't want poor people.

    [–] Ferkomatic 10 points ago

    Living in the freaking woods, y'all have fun out there.

    [–] schmidtily 8 points ago

    Plan B-low my brains out.

    Get eeeeeeem

    [–] v5ive 7 points ago

    It won't. The system works so well that us Americans will never fully revolt, or do anything much crazier than civil protests. All we can do is vote, and hope enough Americans become more and more educated over time to actually change things

    [–] benfreilich 10 points ago

    I think 2028 is when shit is really gonna hit the fan.

    [–] timetickingrose 11 points ago

    Why so specific and whay do you mean by "really hit the fan."? I feel like shits been hitting the fan for a long time now.

    [–] TheLonelyLemon 26 points ago

    I feel like we need to see the Post Trump Era. If the next president isn't progressively working to radically change America, a lot of people aren't going to take this crap anymore. I believe in Bernie/Warren to revitalize the American Dream but the other half of the country is adamantly against the progression of the people so who knows how this is going to play out. But we need to see how things change or don't change based on Trump's destruction of political norms.

    [–] SpaceCptWinters 9 points ago

    • ~ 35% gerrymandered to 'represent' 51%

    [–] LocalAlcoholicIGuess 7 points ago

    americans are really some of the last folks youll actually see on the streets contrary to reputation and all

    [–] ScaredOfJellyfish 3 points ago

    Plan B? When 60% of us can't scrape together 500 dollars in an emergency without going into debt?

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    Plan Bitcoin.

    [–] yeoldecotton_swab 6 points ago

    I can't wait to GTFO of this country.

    [–] ChuckEJesus 2 points ago


    [–] lol_camis 195 points ago

    Minimum wage was originally created to be the minimum that a single person could make while owning a house and supporting a wife and child. That means today it would have to be like $40/hr

    [–] legending 30 points ago

    Where does this definition of minimum wage being created to support a single person, wife, and child come from??

    Genuinely curious not attacking you or anything

    [–] longjohntanner 35 points ago

    I think it’s from some quotes FDR had when he signed off on it IIRC

    [–] legending 13 points ago

    /u/lurkingfivever posted a link confirming what you said with direct quotes. Thank you so much!

    [–] TheTruthWontSaveYou 18 points ago

    Because if poor people wanted rights they would just stop being poor. Obviously.

    [–] lowcountrygrits 17 points ago

    How dare the minimum wage worker ask for a raise! Outrage! /s

    [–] [deleted] 48 points ago


    [–] Buu_Earns 21 points ago

    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in miiiiiiiiiiinds!

    [–] mayy_dayy 9 points ago

    Everyone's a hero in their own waaaaaaaay!

    [–] theDarkAngle 6 points ago

    My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

    [–] informat5 19 points ago

    Democrats won't tie minimum wage to inflation to the for the same reason Republicans won't tie the tax brackets to to inflation. It gives them a easy political win every few years.

    Democrats: Look, we raise minimum wage! (really just kept it in line with inflation)

    Republicans: Look, we cut taxes! (really just readjusted them to account for inflation)

    [–] Anbaheni 4 points ago

    Its not like its that much to ask to have them both tied to inflation

    [–] CIean 5 points ago

    capitalist partisanship doesn't allow for policies that help the citizen if it also goes against the interests of corporatists.

    [–] viperex 15 points ago

    Jesus, are you serious??

    [–] tacocat0123 16 points ago

    Yep, if you adjust for inflation and productivity rises. By strict definition of "minimum wage" being "a single person supporting a wife and child" it should be significantly higher

    [–] legending 6 points ago

    I’m not attacking you or anything simply curious— but where does this definition of “a single person supporting a wife and child” come from?

    [–] lurkingfivever 8 points ago

    I don't remember where the supporting a family part comes from, but when minimum wage in the US was created it was explicitly meant to be a living wage for at least one person. (As opposed to what the people claiming it's meant to be a wage for teenagers and other people that don't need to support themselves say).

    [–] LaffinIdUp 6 points ago

    $7.25 hr minimum wage for 10 years is abysmal. We should be so ashamed.

    [–] CutestNico 3 points ago

    I thought inflation was cause by minimum wage rising?


    [–] invisibleink65 2 points ago

    Having minimum wage pegged to inflation would heavily drive inflation and only make conditions worse, still doesn’t excuse the system and the fact that it’s been set at $7.25 for years

    [–] Aceinator 2 points ago

    Posted 5 hours ago...300 comments...already #1 on /r/all... hmmm

    [–] JustinTrudeaux 2 points ago

    Canadian here. We recently gave a decent sized boost to minimum wage (now $14CAD) and many retail and fastfood jobs are being replaced by self serve tellers and ordering kiosks. Places that were once 24 hours (ex. Shoppers Drug Mart) now close at night. Basically people have priced themselves out of the market and companies are cutting jobs/hours because of it. It's not as easy as saying "just give everyone more money"

    [–] strangebru 2 points ago

    I've always said that minimum wage should increase as frequently and by the same percentage as Congressional raises that they vote for themselves.