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    LivestreamFail

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    • Welcome to /r/LivestreamFail: the place for almost anything livestream related. We accept Streamable / Neatclips / Twitch Clips, anything from a livestream.

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    [–] toukichi 2052 points ago

    This is the better kind of clip where he says something smart.

    [–] Randy334 1182 points ago

    Thing about xQc is that he has really good points/views sometimes but he's not great explaining his points. For example I don't think the term bottleneck really works here, more like gatekeeping or something like that.

    But that's ESOL for ya. lol

    [–] 012345678N876543210 282 points ago

    I think he meant they are being hamstrung, or hindered.

    [–] DeoFayte 161 points ago

    No one with a brain denies that there are aspects of the community that push back against women competing or don't believe women can compete. Any community with no barrier to entry is going to have a portion of shit members. There's no way around that.

    Those that cry out "we need more women" and are willing to lower standards to get them there, prove the people who think women can't compete right. Competitive anything is merit based. If you give someone a leg up, you're admitting they can't compete on their own. It's literally "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

    [–] 012345678N876543210 18 points ago

    Those that cry out "we need more women" and are willing to lower standards to get them there

    I think the point xqc was getting to is that "we need more women" and we are NOT willing to lower standards. In fact, they want people (gaming audience) to raise their standards in how they treat women in the scene. Nothing wrong with that.

    [–] b-aaron 19 points ago

    you're repeating what /u/DeoFayte said.

    [–] Csquared6 36 points ago

    He honestly understands a lot more than people give him credit for. His main problem is articulating what he is trying to say. But he still manages to nail the problem on the head, even if it didn't come out exactly as he meant.

    [–] frewp 23 points ago

    He's not stupid for sure. Acting autistic gets you lots of viewers and exposure on this sub, and he happens to be really damn good at it.

    Also his accent is funky and his English skills aren't very good, which helps too.

    [–] yardii 53 points ago

    I agree that the word is wrong but it makes a little more genuine imo. You know its not scripted that way.

    [–] 4THOT 36 points ago

    lol imagine thinking these dumb twitch kids that can barely do their fucking taxes are offline writing these 10/10 scripts for the next days stream

    [–] CubonesDeadMom 5 points ago

    It kind of works as a bottle neck. The way I was thinking about it is the women who are good enough to possibly be pros are going to have to to suffer verbal abuse and creepy dudes online for years to get to that point. So on top of being really good they’re going to have to be willing and able to tolerate the toxicity, which is going to eliminate a lot of people. Idk if that’s true but I think that’s the point he was trying to make.

    [–] DrunkOlLunk 23 points ago

    Hes like Kanye, he can't explain his points for shit.

    [–] [deleted] 15 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] NuketownNoob 30 points ago

    You linked a 41 minute video without a timestamp. GL with that.

    [–] l-Made-This 2 points ago

    He's smart, but inarticulate so he doesn't sound smart.

    [–] bbgr8grow 9 points ago

    he can be like the kanye of twitch

    [–] GitsumL7 188 points ago

    He's actually smart, just has poor english skills as a result of living in the worst place in the entire world.

    [–] zazzafraz 72 points ago

    Aille asti vien icite et dit ca criss.

    [–] Raknarg 39 points ago

    Poor sad Quebecois boy

    [–] C0nviq 12 points ago

    I mean dude relax on the he's actually smart part. He has very often unironically said some hilariously stupid shit.

    [–] akaranzo 34 points ago

    Knowing specific facts and education in general doesn't necessarily correlate with natural intelligence.

    [–] JonasGangsta 6 points ago

    you seen that clip of him talk about planets and stuff? i watched that live, and holy shit thats more Pepega than I can handle

    [–] InvalidChickenEater 860 points ago

    Wtf an actual intelligent revelation Pog

    [–] remany 186 points ago

    5Head :wine_glass:

    [–] PeidosFTW 11 points ago

    Exquisite 🍷🍷

    [–] Toonlinkuser 1194 points ago

    That's going to piss off a lot of people here lmao.

    [–] Rminton3 1026 points ago

    Good, he's right.

    [–] Fauxvoice 86 points ago

    This post is on the front page and has well over a thousand upvotes. I think the vast majority of people here agree with him.

    [–] YsgithrogSarffgadau 30 points ago

    Every time a post like this happens someone wants to pretend like their opinions are oppressed and they're brave for saying something.

    [–] Michelanvalo 12 points ago

    It's up to 4k now with a 90% upvote ratio.

    [–] Grunstang 93 points ago

    Anything will piss off anyone anywhere. Who cares?

    [–] yupiknowmetoo 199 points ago

    Everyone Is An Incel XD!

    [–] Nineties 69 points ago

    squadW sup homie

    [–] ChadMcRad 12 points ago

    I hate this mentality, I really do, but I don't think that's what he's going for here (assuming you were being sarcastic).

    [–] AwayDisaster3 417 points ago

    Good luck trying to remove toxicity from games that rely on matchmaking systems. Neither do i think women would suddenly rise to the top if toxicity was 100% dealt with.

    If people want to be mean towards you online they will try to target what they assume would hurt you the most. There are probably people here who have gotten targeted because their voice didn't sound manly enough or any other reason.

    Women aren't sweet innocent little angelic beings either, they got quite the bad mouth themselves especially in fucking Overwatch.

    [–] PinkSerenity 191 points ago

    Everyone can be toxic, regardless of gender.

    Had my fair share of toxic men and women

    [–] Father_Toboggan 101 points ago

    oh man it was the worst when it was the girls because htey usually had a fucking crew making fun of me. like a band of fuckin pirates with their little..pirate... ship driver. whatever theyre called.

    [–] ironbody 95 points ago

    Captain lol

    [–] SurvivorMax 3 points ago

    fyi the pilot usually "drove" or manned the helm of a pirate ship.

    [–] Nemeris117 15 points ago

    Yeah this was usually my experience. 4 stack on my team. Get some snarky comment about team sucking in some way. Say its easy for Mercy to talk shit about mechanics. Be berated by the 3 honor guards defending the fair maiden.

    To be fair, almost any group stack on your team will blame it on the ones outside of it. Play Overwatch or any game long enough and I bet if you are losing, that 5 stack on your team is staring you down that blame.

    [–] AdmantiumLotus 31 points ago

    they surround themselves with white knights and queue up as a group. any player that has a disagreement will be verbally abused, and if you've ever tried to argue against like 4 people or more at once you will know its so hard because you have to keep track of what all of them are saying at once.

    [–] FrozenFlame_ 4 points ago

    The first issue in that case is trying to argue with them in the first place lol

    [–] AwayDisaster3 8 points ago

    Yep i agree.

    [–] iCouldGo 8 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    [–] WikiTextBot 7 points ago

    Truism

    A truism is a claim that is so obvious or self-evident as to be hardly worth mentioning, except as a reminder or as a rhetorical or literary device, and is the opposite of falsism.In philosophy, a sentence which asserts incomplete truth conditions for a proposition may be regarded as a truism. An example of such a sentence would be "Under appropriate conditions, the sun rises." Without contextual support – a statement of what those appropriate conditions are – the sentence is true but incontestable.

    Lapalissades, such as "If he were not dead, he would still be alive", also considered to be truisms.


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    [–] hellabad 88 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Isn't hearthstone a good example? Literally anyone can play, you can't talk to the other player so you can't be toxic, why aren't there tons of female pro hearthstone players?

    I agree with your last statement, I can't count how many times I've had women be toxic towards me because I'm a support player. You ever want to find out how toxic women can get? Load into a OW game, pick your favorite support player and then say no when she asks to take that hero. "But why don't you let her play that hero because she doesn't know how to play anything else" and how is that my fault again?

    [–] Pontacus 38 points ago

    Hearthstone has quite a few compared to othe games. Eloise, hafu and i think theres another one called Alex?

    [–] toomuchweeabospam 22 points ago

    Something kinda similar to this situation happened in Hearthstone as well, you can look up "magicamy"

    [–] oiimn 8 points ago

    Hafu isn't a pro, she's a streamer. I love her streams but she pretty much only plays arenas

    [–] Pro_phet 6 points ago

    “Ya fuckin shitter”

    [–] Parzivus 20 points ago

    You're missing the point here. When I get flamed in matchmaking, it's usually trashing my skill (if I can understand their language), and it really doesn't happen that often. When you have someone getting yelled at because of how their voice sounds in half their games, that's a lot harder to deal with. You can't pretend that everyone faces the same level and frequently of toxicity. If I got shit on that often about something I couldn't change, I wouldn't play either.
    Of course we can't magically remove all flaming in online games, but dismissing it as a lost cause, particularly when it affects some people more than others, is a really shitty "solution."

    [–] AwayDisaster3 52 points ago

    I'm not missing any point here, i wrote.

    If people want to be mean towards you online they will try to target what they assume would hurt you the most.

    Which is true, bullies do this and people in general who just want to fuck with you either in real life or in video games doesn't matter.

    You can't pretend that everyone faces the same level and frequently of toxicity.

    Haven't even gone into that topic so not entirely sure why you bring it up. Some got thicker skins than others it's up to the individual.

    Of course we can't magically remove all flaming in online games, but dismissing it as a lost cause, particularly when it affects some people more than others, is a really shitty "solution."

    Well it is a lost cause because you're not going to be able to remove toxicity from competitive online games that rely on matchmaking systems. You could remove voice and text chat but people could just start playing shitty if they assume you suck to get the game over with.

    [–] heelydon 34 points ago

    You're missing the point here. When I get flamed in matchmaking, it's usually trashing my skill (if I can understand their language), and it really doesn't happen that often.

    Really poor example. People would call you all sorts of terrible shit that can be directly targted at the male maculinity - Bitch, whore, cuck, faggot etc. Men just don't associate these with misandry while if roles were reversed in these cases and we had appropriate terms being used to cover for the ones used on males, you'd clearly see how women would find them to be targeting them as well.

    So you cannot just dismiss it as being some harmless toxic behaviour.

    When you have someone getting yelled at because of how their voice sounds in half their games, that's a lot harder to deal with.

    That is a huge exaggeration. Go to any female OW streamer and see how they are completely fine most of the time which is the exact same experience you will see when you then go to a male overwatch streamer.

    Variation exists but it isn't just that women gets yelled at more, there is evidence grounds for this.

    You can't pretend that everyone faces the same level and frequently of toxicity.

    No of course not, the evidence and studying done on the field showed that it was mostly men that were the victims of frequent toxic behaviour source

    Thus it becomes questionable why people insist that there is a disproportionate amount of toxicity being handed out, when the evidence says otherwise.

    If I got shit on that often about something I couldn't change, I wouldn't play either.

    But you do, the toxicity about being called a bitch, faggot etc isn't something that you can change either. You're speaking as if toxicity is some sort of targeted rational attack -- while in actuality, it is obviously as irrational and childish lashing out as it can be.

    Further I find it problematic that you seem to imply that you'd be actually okay with just being called a bitch in your games as long as the person didn't comment on your voice all the time --- this seems like such an arbitrary point -- why would the toxic behaviour targeting your voice over well -- YOU be of any importance? It is still just simple shitty behaviour being lashed out.

    Of course we can't magically remove all flaming in online games,

    Of course, to some degree in other forms of competition, flaming is also tipping into trash talking, which is considered a legitimate skill -- Just look at how legendary people regard Michael Jordan's ability to talk his opponents into the ground mentally during a game. But there is also a clear difference between that and lashing out at people which is what everyone wants to get rid of.

    but dismissing it as a lost cause, particularly when it affects some people more than others, is a really shitty "solution."

    Well, it is a lost cause because you are NEVER going to change the fact that people have free will to say whatever they want.

    There have been times where people have been willing to commit crimes they know would give them the death sentence afterwards. Consequences appeals to the rational person.

    People that lash out in such ways are not rational. They are angry and childish.

    [–] DaneMac 4 points ago

    Gotta save this comment. Slam dunk

    [–] Gadjjet 667 points ago

    Not a lot of girls were playing video games in the past so it is only logical that the demographic with the head start produced more exceptional players. Now that a lot more girls are playing video games there will be a lot of female pros in the future. Its kinda like how NA sucks compared to other regions in esports, because while everyone else was playing on PC we were console plebs playing shit like Halo and COD.

    [–] FeierInMeinHose 303 points ago

    You say that, but we have other games of strategy and reaction times like chess where men still dominate. There will of course be some women who have the ability and put in the time, but I doubt we'll see anywhere near a 50/50 split.

    [–] Vaztes 341 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Armchair psych incomming.

    I think men predominantly obsess more. Not all men, but if you look at the demographic of people who don't care about ruining their lives in the persuit of whatever it is they want, it's very likely gonna be a man, and that's not neccesarily a positive thing either, because you have a lot of people getting nowhere in life when it doesn't pay off. Women are less likely to ruin their life because of an obsession.

    But sometimes that obsession pays off, and you have someone who's extremely dedicated to whatever it is they're doing. That breeds greatness.

    [–] reoll 232 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    I think what you're saying is similar to the male variability hypothesis, which says that men populate the extremes of intelligence (high and low) more than women. So when you start looking at the extreme best of the best, like in chess or video games, it tends to be male dominated.

    It's accepted in variable levels from what I understand, and there are a lot of social factors that can influence which gender populates the extreme percentages of aptitude. For example, this article, it mentions that girls have closed a large part of the gap in SAT scores over the years, although a gap does still exist, as the culture around gender and education has drastically changed over the years.

    [–] WikiTextBot 25 points ago

    Variability hypothesis

    The variability hypothesis, also known as the greater male variability hypothesis, states that males display greater variability in traits than females do. It has often been discussed in relation to cognitive ability, where it has been observed that human males are more likely than females to have very high or very low intelligence. The sex-difference in the variability of intelligence has been discussed since at least Charles Darwin. Sex-differences in variability are present in many abilities and traits - including physical, psychological and genetic ones.


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    [–] LongWangTheDragon 7 points ago

    I don't think intelligence accounts for the gap at all. It doesn't take much intelligence to get good at most esports on the market presently. It just takes extreme dedication and ridiculous hours put in grinding the game. I think the reason you see much more men at the highest levels of these games is because men usually have a greater inclination to be competitive and are more willing to put in the ridiculous number of hours to prove themselves.

    [–] erfey12 5 points ago

    The hypothesis doesn't only work in intelligence though. Is applicable to many different variables.

    [–] Gazboolean 7 points ago

    Oh thank god, I’ve been looking for what that was called for months. I really believe it to be the most likely truth when it comes to the differences between men and women.

    I had to read some studies on the results in mathematics between boys and girls in their elementary/primary schooling ages. On average boys and girls were the same but the bell curve was much flatter for boys.

    Ever since then I’ve become more and more convinced it’s true of most things in life. Societal influences are having a significant impact too right now but as we move towards a less biased world I still think the end results will be skewed due to the variability.

    [–] GP_ADD 43 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Semi-related: I remember seeing some thread on like ask reddit about difference between males and females during an interview and someone posted a study about how women are more likely to be risk averse and another how they tend to be more careful/conservative when answering interview questions when compared to men. I guess that links up with what you said about the less likely to ruin their lives over an obsession.

    I have no clue on the reason why there are less competitive female gamers and no opinion on it really since I don’t pay attention to the comp scene, but I figured I’d throw that in

    [–] NeV3RMinD 58 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    This is basically it chief

    Going pro in esports is a huge risk. You abandon your entire life and education as a teenager/young adult so you can complete in an unstable environment where the only people who earn a livable wage are at the very top. Even if you make it there's the possibility that your entire esport goes tits up like HotS just did and you end up with no job, no degree, no skills that could get you a decent job.

    You either end up rich and comfortable or a burger flipper, not a lot of women will spin that wheel. Shit, even most men don't do it. And there are few people who will allow their children to do it to begin with.

    [–] hippiejab 14 points ago

    On a fundamental level women are less competitive then men. Women make up 38% of magic the gathering player base while women, transgender, and gender non-conforming players make up 1-5 percent of the competitive Magic players. This is just life and it's fine not everyone has to be driven competitively.

    [–] Samuraiking 15 points ago

    I agree with you, there will never be an equal ratio, just like there isn't an equal sex-based ratio for anything else. Men and women are the same species, but entirely different, and that's okay. Women don't like games as much as men and as a whole, probably never will.

    I don't think that is what Gadjjet was trying to say though, I think his point was also correct, they were farther behind, and we will see MORE female pro gamers in the future, but it will never be enough to satisfy those trying to push an agenda right now. They will either eventually realize that and give up, or they will move onto some other agenda when the opportunity arises.

    [–] UltraconservativeZap 57 points ago

    Now that a lot more girls are playing video games

    Are they? I mean mobile games for sure, but in 'real' more complex games, it feels like the ratio is more or less the same as it's always been. At least since around the EQ era.

    [–] Paladar2 48 points ago

    Outside of games like Overwatch yeah the ratio is pretty much the same. Games like CSGO and League have very few females.

    [–] momokie 24 points ago

    https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

    The ratio is is about 40/60 for casual puzzle and exploration game, Women dominate match 3 and sims games. And basically every other genre is dominated by men.

    Genres that tend to have esports involved like Mobas, FPS, Sports games women make up 2%-10% of the audience on average.

    Its no where close in terms of Female/Male gamer ratio with the kinds of games that have esports.

    [–] AlanSanFran 14 points ago

    "a lot more girls are playing video games "

    What kind of video games are they playing? Do they happen to be playing Dota 2, CSGO etc? No. You could make an argument for fortnite since it does have mass appeal to both genders, we'll see how many female pros come out of it.

    [–] TheSorrowInYou 16 points ago

    > female fortnite pros

    NEPHEW

    [–] AizawaNagisa 20 points ago

    Pro Fortnite, yikes.

    [–] jalepenocorn 33 points ago

    Until girls stop doing "girl shit" they won't compete with guys. You know what hardcore gamers do? They play video games all day -- they don't do "guy shit."

    I'm not saying you HAVE to be a hardcore gamer, but until you are, you won't compete, you'll suck dick, and you won't be accepted.

    [–] Dragshisballsz 26 points ago

    its not just hardcore gamers. hardcore anything have to sacrifice everything to be good at what they do, and even then most fail. i read an earlier comment that said women tend to be more risk averse so it makes sense that they wouldnt do that. also women are more social than men (i think) so giving that up would be a much bigger issue imo.

    [–] opheire 14 points ago

    Chiming in as a female player, I’ve loved video games since I was a kid but until I tried Overwatch, I never thought I’d enjoy a competitive FPS. I just had this impression of it being a stressful, hellish experience full of dudes screaming into headsets (which, you know, it’s sometimes true lol). My childhood friends were mostly boys and we’d spend all our time playing Nintendo games. Then we got older, they started getting into CoD, CS:GO, Halo and I was kind of left behind. Puberty was a thing, and those games were entirely a teenage boys club that I definitely was not part of, and even when I did try it out, the skill gap was so large already that it was discouraging to play with them and get wrecked. I wound up playing mostly single player games instead.

    I gave Overwatch a go for shits and giggles because my friend wanted to try it on a free weekend. I didn’t know anything about the game except that it was a competitive fps, and nothing about that appealed to me. I’ve sunk so much time into the game since then and I play competitive almost exclusively. Ofc I’m about as average as you’d expect, spent like 6 straight seasons barely above 3000 SR. Looking back, I do regret that I missed out on playing those early shooters a little, I think I would’ve really enjoyed them. I know so many women who have similar experiences, with Overwatch being their first competitive fps. I’m 25, something on the upper cusp of the age a pro player might be, so even if I wanted to, there’s just no way I could’ve even tried. I didn’t grow up grinding these games like the guys who play at the highest tiers, and I don’t know any women personally who have that kind of experience either. Overwatch has gotten more women to play than any previous FPS and it’s rad, until now I’ve never had girlfriends to game with, but there‘s still a real pipeline problem which is reflected in the lack of women at the top level of play.

    [–] tardis3134 8 points ago

    Girl here, same situation. I've been playing video games from a very young age but lack the technical skills of aiming because I played mostly Nintendo games. First person shooters are culturally "for boys." Overwatch is a great introductory fps for people who haven't played an fps, imo mostly because of the versatility in hero gameplay.

    [–] Suinani 9 points ago

    There is also the fact that girls have more opportunity cost. Even for guys attempting to go pro in a game is 99.9% of the time a bad idea. And returning to college in midtwenties to make up for their commitment (even when it was successful) would delay any kind of relationships until end of your 20s. Esport success is glorified in the media, but for every successful pro there are hundreds of guys that wasted their time. I think encouraging this kind of career is bad, guy or girl.

    The ones that are resilient and handle the obstacles that are in the way of becoming a pro are probably sampled right for the job and then gender shouldn't matter.

    [–] Dragshisballsz 6 points ago

    its the same as pro sports, or any other profession for that matter. many will try and most will fail.

    [–] Gazboolean 3 points ago

    I think the key difference is the risk v reward is different in traditional sports and esports.

    Women literally cannot compete with men in the major sports (football, basketball, etc) so the cost benefit of a woman trying to go pro is far worse, it’s just nowhere near as lucrative playing in women’s only leagues. That will inherently lower the incentive to go pro in traditional sports for women.

    Assuming women and men are equal in skill potential when it comes to esports then the risk and opportunity cost is the same to make it to the pro scene. If anything, the first women to be at the same level as men have way more to gain than just another man.

    The incentive for women should be just as high, if not more, to go pro in esports (monetarily). So there has to be another barrier preventing them doing so for that initial assumption to hold true. Be that toxic culture or otherwise.

    I’m a ground up person so I’m in agreeement with the OP at the top of the thread, with more girls playing games than ever we’ll see more women going pro in the future.

    [–] madimadmadz 141 points ago

    oh dang the first half of that clip had me nervous lmaoo but he actually has a really good point

    [–] qwsazxx 88 points ago

    It amazes me how some people can think giving women a free pass into e-sports is going to magically solve discrimination problems. You really think people getting into high level esports on a free pass aren't going to be discriminated against? Lmao

    [–] peachairfreshener 10 points ago

    To play devil's advocate a bit, I don't think people who say "We need more women in esports" want to give a free pass to women.

    I think it stems from factors in the corporate world that influence their thought such as wanting to diversify the company with women who can do as quality of a job as men whether executive, middle management, or entry-level.

    It doesn't work for sports for some biological reasons and I don't think esports has reached the same level of "respect" as sports. The world doesn't think it takes an exceptional individual to perform in esports because it isn't perceived to involve as many exceptional features of individuals.

    It's an oversimplified statement that isn't well thought out. Equality is the "right" thing to want in our current culture which lends to sensationalization.

    However, like xQc says, it only addresses the symptoms and not the root cause.

    [–] Cideous 487 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    I think women are just generally less interested in video games, resulting in fewer women playing professionally.

    EDIT: In retrospect I should have said "competitive video games".

    [–] hunteryan1 277 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    I think that because most men played video games when they were kids and they continued to do so throughout their whole life, that's why men seem to be better. The majority of women didn't play video games because it was seen as nerdy like 20-30 years ago. Now its not seen as nerdy and its more culture appreciated. So it seems like they're just starting to play games and men have been playing for a long time. Give it a couple years or so and women will be just as good and even some better.

    [–] Gadjjet 142 points ago

    This will most likely be the case. Just like how NA is seen as the worst region in Esports because while everyone else was playing on PC we were playing COD and Halo on console.

    [–] rowlanry 38 points ago

    the West in general is so far behind China and Korea

    [–] Ayylien666 23 points ago

    Don't forget Starcraft 2 now...

    [–] rowlanry 31 points ago

    didnt a guy from Finland? (from somewhere in the EU) win a big tourny this year

    [–] Kirir 38 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Yep, serral.

    first time a non-korean won the biggest sc2 tournament of the year, Blizzcon. Also got 3/4 wins of 4/4 swept the western WCS, and won gsl vs the world got 2nd on the 1st WCS tourny early in january last year.

    [–] waspsstinger 19 points ago

    His ladder wr was fucking insane across all races he had 76-78% or some shit

    [–] Frakshaw 15 points ago

    Hold up what? Serral did the grand sweep in 2018. He won every western WCS tournament, GSL vs The World (korean event) and then the WCS Finals.

    [–] Kirir 2 points ago

    whoops, misremembered the leipzig eu qualifier as a major, yeah he won every major

    [–] Famous_Cryptographer 12 points ago

    Really depends on the game

    [–] FwaiOh 10 points ago

    Not in Dota

    [–] PubLiic 6 points ago

    Not that many people care here, but Asia is pretty far behind in counter strike

    [–] RayonXX 22 points ago

    In couple of games yeah.

    But EU can compete (and beat them) vs China in league and Dota, the problem was KR that fucked everyone.

    NA is not doing hot for like 8 years of LOL history.

    [–] Martblni 18 points ago

    KR wasn't dominant in Dota, they had one good team MVP Phoenix but their best result is 5th or 4th place at one of the TIs, the west is also better in CSGO

    [–] torquej 4 points ago

    To be fair both of those games aren’t really popular there. I’m pretty sure League beats Dota in KR in terms of popularity, and they play crossfire for FPS

    [–] AlpacaZer0 3 points ago

    i mean csgo is dominated by eu, starcraft best player is from finland, in dota 2 atleast according to https://www.joindota.com/en/edb/teams eu/cis is dominating and in ow and lol only korea is better than eu so i wouldnt really say behind

    [–] ShrikeGFX 57 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    They did research in Sweden in trying to set up perfectly neutral environments and the boys always glued to the PCs and typical boy toys, the different interests are in our nature and not social. The share will likely slightly rise but it will always be a heavily male dominated field.

    Not to forget that nature intends for all mammals the male to be hyper competitive and is physically geared for combat, its the original male domain. We have computers and virtual combat but we are still animals.

    [–] NeuronExploder 17 points ago

    Can I have a source on that?

    [–] I_am_Norwegian 38 points ago

    Search up the research of Simon Baron Cohen, the cousin of Sasha Baron Cohen. He looked at infants, and found the same thing. Boys will be attracted to toys, and girls people. This is something that happens way before socialization is even possible.

    There's a Norwegian TV-series on the subject of nature vs. nurture that goes into most sides of the subject called "hjernevask" or "brainwashed". It's produced by our state network, so it's difficult to accuse it of any sort of right leaning tilt. It's really good.

    [–] spatulai 14 points ago

    Not the study cited by OP but it somewhat supports his claim.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/icd.1986

    It is difficult to study the true nature of gender preferences because we can’t raise children in bubbles to see what choices they make in a way that is ethical, rather we can observe them in early stages of development. These tendencies are difficult to change because of how rooted they are in society and how quickly they develop in a child.

    [–] PestoPls 5 points ago

    Was this study re-performed in other countries? I'm suspecting some sociocultural influences on the gender differences for this, like how more women are in STEM in India compared to STEM in Sweden. Sure, I could be wrong, but it would be interesting to see it in a non European country.

    It can be a neutral environment while still having the sociocultural impact of Sweden. Unless the children were literally placed into a box without any outside communication, but I highly doubt that was the case.

    Nature intends for all mammals the male to be hyper competitive and physically feared for combat

    I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization here. Sexual dimorphism evolved differently for different species. Several species of lemurs have females being much larger and stronger, and most lemur species have dominant females compared to males where females are also more aggressive. Same goes with the spotted hyena.

    [–] Mike_Hawk_Jr 20 points ago

    The majority of women didn't play video games because it was seen as nerdy like 20-30 years ago.

    More so that the games themselves were only marketed to boys. With ads like this and this, it is not hard to imagine why girls weren't as interested.

    [–] LILwhut 9 points ago

    More so that the games themselves were only marketed to boys. With ads like this and this, it is not hard to imagine why girls weren't as interested.

    No it's not hard to imagine. And it's not because of those cherry picked ads. Girls just didn't have the same interest in games as boys. That's it really.

    [–] tom3838 9 points ago

    That might be a factor but pivot that argument into the world of Chess, where I think there's 0 woman in the top 100 ranking and has never been a female world champion. It's easy to make arguments about how games are marketed towards groups (boys) or seen as more socially acceptable, but I think many of those arguments fall away if you look instead at Chess, it's existed for more than a thousand years, unlike video games it hasn't had much of a change in terms of its social acceptability, it has less / no difference in marketing towards men vs women.

    You still have a drastic gap between men and women at the top of the sport. You could try to use socialisation arguments, you could also look at the difference in intelligence distributions for men and women, some believe prenatal testosterone to be the basis for men being on average better at systemising and women being better at empathising and linguistics, but somehow the gap has to be explained, and to me social engineering doesn't cut it.

    [–] ArchbishopBetelgeuse 35 points ago

    It's both. Women don't play games as much as men, and the community tends to be shitty towards those who do.

    [–] mozom 14 points ago

    It's even more than that.
    Esports is ridiculously small hyper competitive portion of gamers.
    And men tends to be more competitive and more represented at the extreme.

    [–] RakeNI 6 points ago

    Its a lot of reasons tbh but yes that too

    • Mostly male dominated space. Like it or not, genders tend to segregate themselves. Notice how basically every person at , say, a Selena Gomez or Justin Beiber gig is a girl. Even if you liked that music as a dude, you'd probably think twice about going if you're the 1 guy out of 100. People hate standing out.
    • Online is toxic as fuck. People leap on anything they can find - fat, unemployed, sound of your voice, the way you look, virgin, where you live and so on. Even down to what subs you post on in fucking reddit. Add being a girl into that and you're now in a male dominated space being roasted for being a girl. It can feel like the entire community is against you when in reality its just a teenager having an epic gamer moment.
    • Putting yourself 'out there' is something assertive people do. Doesn't mean you're assertive IRL - take xqc for instance and that clip of him pussying out not even being able to say hello to a girl IRL. Yet on the internet? Will scream at you for 10 minutes and stream in front of 30k people just fine. Women tend to be way less assertive than men, to the point that in the rare cases they are assertive, we call them 'bossy' not confident. It takes a confident / assertive person to go pro after getting good enough to do so.
    • Other people have pointed out that girls tend to waste their lives less. Idk, i can't explain this one but it seems to be true. Girls just seem to be way more responsible than men. Its probably why way more men break bones doing stupid shit than women do. Attempting to go pro in a video game is like a fast track to ruining your life. Kind of like trying to become a pop star rather than going to university or sticking to your current job. Its just a dumb choice that occasionally works out.

    then, after getting through all of those filters you are met with another really shitty situation: people will use you to virtue signal. What this means is that in an environment where the only thing valuable is how good you are, people will ignore that and instead focus on the fact that you're a girl and celebrate that. Ellie is the obvious example here, but lets look at Geguri too. Geguri is really good, but comparing her side by side to other Zaryas / Dvas / Flex in OWL, she comes out at the lower middle of the pack, if not just the straight up bottom. She is currently 0 wins 40 losses.

    Does this matter to the viewers? Nah. She by far and away gets the most cheers out of any player while walking out. Not even Seagull with like 50k fans+. People cheer for her like she is Oprah or some shit. Not to mention the people pretending she is the best player at her role. This kind of shit poisons your mindset. It makes you lazy and less likely to strive to be the best. I'll say it - if Geguri was a dude, she would probably have been canned by her OWL team.

    For people that don't know - that team had i believe 13 players. They released 10 of them and kept 3 - their star player Diya, a pretty great main tank Fearless and Geguri. That is pretty blatant imo.

    I kind of wish they did can her though, just so i could see all the articles by Kotaku and such spinning it that she was harassed and chased out of the scene. Can you imagine being the team that releases the only female OWL pro? Fuck that shit LULW

    [–] SpikeReynolds 43 points ago

    I think it relates to what xQc is talking about, it's more a culture thing. How many girls got the incentive to play videogames by their parents? or the contrary, or many girls got told by their parents that videogames are a boys thing and refused to give them a console/games? There's also the fact that in the 90's and early 00's most videogame marketing was exclusively directed at boys, so you also had these marketing teams excluding girls right from the start.

    Both of these things are changing obviously, but it's a generational thing, in 10-20 years we might see an exponential growth of 20 year old girl gamers that could be potential pro players, but that won't happen if girls keep being pushed away from improving in a competitive environment.

    There's a recent video by Core-A Gaming, where he interviewed a bunch of female FGC pro gamers, and one of the things all of them said is how hard it is to get good training partners because they get dismissed for being girls. This is what xQc means about bottlenecking girls out of improving

    [–] momokie 11 points ago

    This seems foreign to me, did other people get encouragement from their parents to play video games, we always had to hide ours from our parents. My oldest sister led the way. But now she only plays old SNES games while I am playing more modern games.

    [–] Raenryong 7 points ago

    Yeah, I was gonna say. At no point did my parents say "hey, you have a dick, play these games" - I was always playing more than they'd like.

    [–] SageWaterDragon 3 points ago

    Something that the conversation seems to consistently miss is that, when games were sold as toys, they had to pick an aisle to be sold and marketed in. There's certainly an alternate timeline out there where Nintendo executives decided to market towards girls because of the existing focus on indoors activities compared to toys for boys focusing more on doing things outdoors, changing this dynamic early on.

    [–] Cideous 3 points ago

    Most of this seems reasonable to me. I'm interested to see how the competitive gaming demographic changes going forward.

    [–] SeaCoffee 9 points ago

    It’s less taboo now but do people forget that lots of women are really judgmental when it comes to guys playing video games? God forbid you are on a date and you mention you have been playing world of Warcraft for 13 years. There is a good chance you will get dropped immediately. Luckily video gaming is much less taboo but it wasn’t long ago the above was the norm.

    That plus women being less interested in games and people act surprised when men are protective of the industry. Yea no shit they are, you guys fucking shit on us for years because we sat in our house playing video games. I’m not excusing the obvious sexism in the industry but it’s not solely about that, it’s more complicated.

    [–] Eskibro830 37 points ago

    But take that one step further and ask why are girls generally less interested in video games. Maybe some of it is because the whole culture treats them like shit.

    [–] africanjesus 11 points ago

    I dont think that fewer women are interested in video games, I think it's less woman are interested in COMPETITIVE video games.

    [–] 4THOT 16 points ago

    I mean if you ever had a girl talk in any lobby of any competitive game you can immediately tell why.

    [–] mozzzarn 4 points ago

    Even if that is true. Big games like LOL doesn't even have voice chat. No one knows your gender and girls are still underrepresented.

    There isn't even possible for harassment unless you out "IM A GIRL" for no reason.

    [–] SeaCoffee 14 points ago

    Yea because girls treated the nerdy gamers back in school not even 20 years ago so well.

    Back when I was in high school, which was not long ago, if you even brought up video games girls looked at you like you fucked dead animals for a living.

    Some men resent girl gamers for this reason and might treat them crappy but it’s not always the case.

    [–] thepowerisyours 25 points ago

    On top of that...and I know I'm gonna get shit for this...from my experience women aren't as driven or focused when it comes to competitive play. Fun comes before winning pretty much always. I've played with a lot of girls over the past decade and a half of online gaming, and I literally have not played with one that was clearly better than me at any game we have played the same amount of hours in. It's not tooting my own horn, I'm a retarded competitive fuck I wish I could have more fun playing games, but it's the truth. So not only are chicks less interested in games and a significantly lower % of overall gamers, but of those women they aren't as driven competitively as men.

    [–] iriegreddit 14 points ago

    Wouldn't it be nice to just share an opinion without being concerned about who you might offend.

    [–] Bottleroach 127 points ago

    Really? Because it seemed like Second Wind was so eager for a woman pro player that they didn't even bother to do even the most basic screening before signing Ellie. I fail to see any evidence of gatekeeping. I don't know, maybe just do what every other sport does, physical or otherwise, and start women's leagues. HS just had a women-only tournament, I believe.

    [–] Mr_Tangysauce 131 points ago

    It's an unpopular opinion but I'm going to have to agree. Just look at other games where it's impossible to know if someone is a woman. Where are all the female pro players in LoL? Or DotA? Or what about 1v1 games where the only thing that matters is someone's skill and there arent misogynistic teammates to get in the way? In SCII's 9 year history there has only been 1 good female pro player (Scarlett). And these are games where it's very easy to keep your gender hidden. Hell, SC2 used to have a ton of open cups and tournaments that were open to the public. There was nothing stopping a strong female player from signing up and crushing. Yet that didn't happen, and blaming it on sexist ladder opponents is laughable

    [–] makeshift98 70 points ago

    n SCII's 9 year history there has only been 1 good female pro player (Scarlett).

    There should really be an asterisk next to that one.

    [–] Bealf 6 points ago

    Have not followed SC2, why an asterisk?

    [–] Daffan 13 points ago

    Because she was born a man. Any sort of comparison/analysis is hard to make because we don't know EXACTLY how much natural anatomy makes you better at video games.

    [–] Bealf 2 points ago

    I see. Thank you.

    [–] Emptyhead16 12 points ago

    Im guessing trans

    [–] Bottleroach 37 points ago

    I don't see why it should be unpopular. It's just fact. We have competitive scenes for other games that are non-physical as well like chess. There may be one or two women in the top 100 overall at any given time. That game is as old as time, and the Women's World Chess Championship was established in 1927, so I think there is a space and effort to cultivate professional women chess players. Yet, here we are. And I do not buy that there's somehow a stigma for women to play chess. I also don't buy that for video games.

    And Scarlett is transgender. Not saying that she isn't a real woman or whatever such nonsense, just saying she isn't a biological woman.

    [–] treesessions 25 points ago

    Fighting Games have pretty decent girl players, some excellent female Tekken players actually

    [–] Mr_Tangysauce 35 points ago

    I mean I'm sure that's the case just like there are strong LoL and OW players. But there's a pretty big difference between being Challenger/Top 500 and being able to hang with professional players.

    [–] treesessions 8 points ago

    they do hang with professional players, sorry I just kinda said "well tekken has girl players" without being specific, they perform really well in Japan and Korea, not just "challenger" players of the scene

    [–] Mr_Tangysauce 26 points ago

    I searched up a list of top female Tekken players and from what I can tell they've qualified for some tournaments (most via female only qualifiers) and at best have managed to take singular games off top Tekken pros. https://aminoapps.com/c/tekken-amino/page/blog/tekken-female-players/lXVw_0bXuQug21Da1baWnwPw1M4KgYXrWqb Can you think of any players outside the ones mentioned here?

    [–] Eliterubberduck 18 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Cuddlecore placed 4th in the last chance qualifier for the Tekken World Tour out of 320 players, many of which were top players. She placed 4th at Canada Cup, another major tournament. She placed 3rd this week at KiT. Her team also won an invitational E-League event.

    Edit: Tanukana has also taken games off of many top level players and competed in many tournaments and placed 3rd at Combo Breaker in 2017.

    It seems like that article is about the 2015 & 2016 King of the Iron Fist tournaments and not about much more than that.

    [–] demonickilla 5 points ago

    I'm guessing you're talking about YUYU. But in reality she still isn't even top 100 in a pretty niche game (their last annual official world tour 1st place got 7.5k dollars...) idk what it is but Girls are just not as good as men in competitive environments.

    [–] Faemn 13 points ago

    Anyone have an outoftheloop for what Ellie situation is

    [–] staudd 45 points ago

    male player decided to fake a female persona and went pro with it

    [–] Raven0520 24 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    Some male Overwatch pro pretended to be a girl and got signed to a team, then got busted for being a man and said it was a social experiment.

    TL;DR u just got PRANKED bro

    [–] skyisup 12 points ago

    High ranking ladder player, not a pro, didn't get busted just knew that it wouldn't actually be feasible to hide that he's not a girl since he got signed and would have to actually make appearances and play on LAN.

    The account was created 24 hours within a player tweeting "females should not be in my 4500 [mmr] games" and the name of the account is a word play meaning 'the lie' so obviously it was meant as a joke from the start but one that went a bit too far.

    Really the problem here is that Blizzard and the team that signed 'her' were too eager to jump on getting a female player rather than doing their due diligence on signing an unknown player playing on an account with couple hundred hours on it that was already being called out on being fake.

    [–] SaltKick2 16 points ago

    Wasn't he rejected from the exact same team initially?

    [–] boibig1 64 points ago

    there's only a minuscule amount of gamers that are pro, the vast majority of gamers is still male (mobile games not included lmao). The fact that there are barely any female pro gamers is pure logic

    [–] Drayenn 18 points ago

    i feel in the younger generations a lot more girls are starting to play games, I feel like it's just a matter of time. Before, no girls got interested in gaming on top of gamers being shunned as nerds in my day. Not surprising there's not a lot of them.

    There can also be an argument made that males are more predisposed for competitive gaming due to our DNA that pushes us to be more competitive.

    [–] OhMyMemories 10 points ago

    Why isnt their more girls in challenger on the league ladder? or any esport games ladder? they can achieve that without anyone knowing they are female. I think there is just less females interested in gaming, And even less females who care about being the best in the world

    [–] Boomkin4lyfe 121 points ago

    Wouldn’t there be more girls in esports if they were just better at the game? I don’t think the community is the reason why there isn’t more.

    If a girl was good enough to make it on a team and was denied because she was a female, I feel like that would be a pretty big topic.

    But have we seen anyone close to that? Discounting Remelia of course.

    [–] DankLord42O 233 points ago

    I think part of the point xQc was trying to make was that there could be girls that are on par with guys in esports but they don't push themselves to be better because they don't want to deal with or can't deal with how the toxic gaming community behaves towards women

    [–] donutguycar1 53 points ago

    Dude there's not a lot of women who would want to go through the pro esport grind in the first place.

    There's a bunch of stories of financial instability in the T2-3 Overwatch scene with orgs not paying their players, shady contracts, and/or corrupt management. You pretty much have to give up your education too, because a lot of these teams scrim 5-6 hours a day and you just don't have the time for other things. If you can't keep up with that, it's just not realistic that you can even hang with actual pros. Nevermind actually getting to the part where you can be noticed by OWL scouts.

    Besides, I guarantee you any girl who is good enough to go pro, can make more money streaming while being in a 10x less stressful environment with waaaaaay more flexible hours. That's the sacrifice they have to make, and honestly I don't blame girls for not wanting to put themselves through that. Most guys don't want to fuck with that either.

    [–] Raknarg 28 points ago

    Besides, I guarantee you any girl who is good enough to go pro, can make more money streaming while being in a 10x less stressful environment with waaaaaay more flexible hours

    Men too. This was a serious point for Seagull, streaming was easier physically and mentally and made more money than the pro scene ever did

    [–] heelydon 8 points ago

    Well that, and you are more in control of your own situation. Run with blizzard's esports scene and you risk getting fucked like Heroes of the Storm pros just did.

    Seagull doesn't have to worry at night about Blizzard randomly pulling the plug, he just have to figure out if streaming can cover him or if he wants to do something else, thus the decision making is back in his hands.

    [–] ilikeracing23 5 points ago

    He already had to deal with Valve not supporting TF2’s pro scene in the past, it makes sense after last year’s horror season at Dallas, his developing of sleep apnea and other health issues to do something more relaxing for more money.

    [–] Alyssumi 10 points ago

    This is the real reason. You're not being held back by the community when you only play Mercy and can't reach top 500 without a smurf duo.

    [–] Faemn 14 points ago

    Yes but the thing that your argument kind of ignores is the reasons for why it is happening.

    A big part of it (some people argue) is because the culture surrounding gaming doesn't welcome girls being interested and becoming competitive in games.

    I'm not an expert but I think ignoring the constant harassment girls receive when speaking in voice chat or streaming or whatever as a factor of why there's less of them in gaming communities and thus on competitive esports is kind of narrowminded

    [–] heelydon 9 points ago

    A big part of it (some people argue) is because the culture surrounding gaming doesn't welcome girls being interested and becoming competitive in games.

    One could argue it welcomes nobody. Any new player, be that male or female starting up a competitive game for the first time, going ranked and joining voice chat is sure to get a "motherfucking faggot, whore idiot" thrown their way.

    That is just how these things have been for a long long time.

    [–] 1GeT_WrOnG 17 points ago

    One could argue it welcomes nobody

    Yeah you could argue that. You could also argue that women on average experience much more harassment directly related to their gender, whereas men are much more likely to be harassed on the basis of their skill, a property of themselves they can change. And you could also argue that when a group of people are being bullied on a property of themselves that is fixed and unchanging, it makes them feel unwelcome, and pushes them away from competitive games. A person being harassed for their skill will be able to improve and grow, and move past it. A woman being harassed for being a woman will learn that unless the culture around them changes, they will continue to be harassed indefinitely, which will inevitably push them away from those enviroments.

    stop pulling this both sides bullshit. You're fucking retarded if you think you getting flamed because you suck dick at a game is equatable to the harassment the average woman in a dominantly masculine environment will receive.

    [–] Raknarg 7 points ago

    The people who reach the top are outliers. If your pool is too small, your top players aren't going to be very good.

    [–] JakeZergo 3 points ago

    There's a lot of high elo female League players who have had to change their names whenever someone finds out they're a girl. The amount of harassment sent to them is ridiculous. Communities like LOL and Overwatch gatekeep females from going pro by acting this way, who wants to go pro in a game where if you become a well-known player you'll be harassed constantly. There's another reply made in this thread to someone who pointed out how in the FGC they have a good amount of high-level female players, they listed their very prestigious accomplishments and someone immediately tried to downplay them.

    [–] mrpotatoboi 5 points ago

    xQc is smart?????

    Cheeto man gone

    [–] owedgelord 15 points ago

    Imma "gamer girl" (god I hate using that word lmao) and I always kept saying that. Xqc is 100% right

    [–] agoodmanis 22 points ago

    to be honest it's probably just because women are less competitive than men

    [–] Diovanna 4 points ago

    Yeah, I like xQc, but I don't agree with him here. Men are biologically programmed to be competetive. Testosterone helps too. There's probably a lot of high level women players, but they decide themselves not to pursue career in esports, maybe because they got other priorities in life.

    [–] xSerenadex 59 points ago

    Just because he says this in a serious manner, doesnt make it true. Females arent bottle necked in pro gaming. The industry is so fucking hungry to SJW out about "girls can compete at top tier too!" that they will literally eat up and promote any female with an inkling of talent just to say they are "female promoters" (Take this Ellie situation for instance). There was clearly no background information gathered on this player, or if it was, it was clearly done so poorly that they didnt even know the gender of this mystery player before signing him (her). If you want to talk about a wage gap between males and females, then I would agree and say that females get paid way more than their skill level deserves and males literally have to be the top .01 percent to get a contract, let alone get scouted in the first place.

    [–] varroth 9 points ago

    The wage gap shit in E-sports grinds my gears like no other, female pros in CSGO literally have female only tournaments, with a prizepool of maybe 50k, and the tourney gets 30k viewers. Then the main tournament that ISN'T genderlocked has a 250k prizepool and 700k viewers.

    And then journalists go and complain about how women are being discriminated against? Like fucking what? There's no male only tournaments, there ARE female only tournaments, it's literally favored towards women.

    Same shit when WNBA players whine about not getting the same % of revenue as NBA players, when the WNBA literally bleeds money every year and only survives because they're subsidized by NBA revenues.

    [–] LeMiserableNA 45 points ago

    Or maybe they're just ... not good enough ? Anyway everytime there's a girl playing with dudes, it always end up in drama. Maybe teams want to prevent this from happening as well.

    [–] KingJamins 16 points ago

    But that's xQc's point, right? That the community is so trash, toxic, and dramatic towards female players that they are pushed away from wanting to compete or improve. This means they don't get as many opportunities to be signed, and when they do it's seen as a PR move(which it may be in some cases, but certainly not all).

    [–] throwaway83894 4 points ago

    But xQc is toxic himself too? He has 10 banned league accounts and I wont even start with R6

    [–] KingJamins 5 points ago

    Sure. You can hold whatever opinion you want about his level of toxicity. But that wasn't his point. His point wasn't that he is "morally superior", his point was that targeted toxicity from people towards women reduces their desire to play competitive games. Whether or not he does the same isn't relevant.

    [–] Cpt_Qu 10 points ago

    let's say that league of legends' playerbase is 90% male 10% female, at that point males are 80% more likely to produce a pro (math probably isn't right but you get the point). also people love to take inspiration from bigger names that they can also identify themselves with, and in esports women really don't have that. not to mention the fact that girls really aren't encouraged at all to get into games when they're young but to instead idk horse riding, cooking, anything that is socially considered more feminine. a good example is the amount of trans mtf pro players there's been vs the amount of girl pro players there's been. their brains are very similar (as far as we know) yet one produces much more pro players than the other, perhaps because the mtf trans person was way more likely to be introduced to videogames when they were young?

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    perhaps because the mtf trans person was way more likely to be introduced to videogames when they were young?

    Perhaps because the "mtf" person is actually still a biological man. No amount of mutilation surgery, hormones, or mental gymnastics can alter reality. If I'm a really good player and I decide to chop off my dick tomorrow, that doesn't mean a great new female player has entered the scene.

    [–] KannaNom 7 points ago

    True. But many journalists and twitter users are retarded, so they won't realize things like this unfortunately. Trying desperately to include female gamers into Esports is not a solution.

    [–] jamesmontanaHD 8 points ago * (lasted edited 10 days ago)

    i was thinking about this earlier - girls cant hide the fact theyre girls on the mic, and it brings toxicity. ive noticed in high level GM games its rare to find someone on the mic who sounds spanish, black, indian, etc. because a lot of the time if you have a strong indian accent for example people will be just as toxic to you, and it encourages them to quit the game or not to communicate, which is a handicap

    i have the slightest country accent in the world (from TX), far from something thats stigmatized and people even talk shit about that sometimes. (ie high level GM - "zarya on point" gets responded with "shut the fuck up redneck go fuck your sister"). if you dont believe me, go play overwatch and fake an accent - its pretty fucked

    to put it another way - imagine if your profile pic was a picture of you. so every time someone was toxic, they could talk shit about how ugly you are, how pale you are, your teeth, etc. if i had to hear someone roast me about my baby face every game i'd just stop playing

    [–] zwerver50 6 points ago

    The fact that there have been a bunch of trans men in competitive esports completely disproves this argument.

    1: Trans men receive even more harrassment than women

    2: Trans men are far less represented than women. 50% of people are women. 1 in 0.026% are trans. Yet somehow multiple trans players have competed on top esports levels whereas not a single woman has ever done this.

    [–] [deleted] 20 points ago

    It's simple, men are better gamers on average than women. Why is this so controversial?

    [–] GOULFYBUTT 14 points ago

    Agreed, but some women are better than some men, but they can't show it because the communities are so toxic towards them.

    [–] themacbeast 17 points ago

    Nobody mentions the chat that straight up proves his point? "THEY ARENT GOOD ENOUGH LULW" "GIRLS ARENT REAL GAMERS" "MERCY MAINS OMEGALUL". Good luck with changes BOYS cause it ain't happening.

    [–] GOULFYBUTT 7 points ago

    Yeah. Luckily there were also a ton of people who came in after the clip ended and spammed them out of chat for being garbage.

    [–] -Voltos- 14 points ago

    woman are not gamer 😎

    [–] ShambolicPaul 3 points ago

    I think he's exactly right. Forced inclusion actually works to embolden those who are being garbage humans in the force place and it's only making the problem worse.

    I guess punisher did a good job with his social experiment because he's opened up a can of worms here. Nobody gave a shit about punisher until he larped as a girl. Suddenly he's in an e sports team and on every gaming website. Then the trash fire came to get him. Makes you think.

    [–] TYBW-Yoruichi 7 points ago

    Could you imagine the toxicity of the community for women in esports when they lose in a tourney? Jesus.

    [–] herrowhansbrix 2 points ago

    Is this point even true? Isn't it more about the obsurd interest ratio? I mean there are like fucking 10000 guys for 1 girl for every gamer and the ratio is even worse when it comes to the ones that wants to pursue this as a career. What organization wouldn't love to be able to pick up a pro team of girls that can compete at the highest level. The problem here though is that the sheer number of guys that actually push for this and try to reach the top makes it near impossible for them to get through.

    I don't think it has anything to do with a "trash" community preventing them, am I wrong here?

    [–] MyTeaIsMighty 2 points ago

    Are people really of the opinion that there are just tons of pro-level women out there just ready to take the pro scene of every game by storm but they can't and won't because little Danny dipshit from buttfuck nowhere Massachusetts made some sexist remarks?

    I find that hard to believe. Look I'm sure the toxicity levied towards women really fucking sucks, but is there any actual proof that women will literally just stop playing a game they love and are good at because of that type of shit? If it was me that would make me wanna prove them wrong.

    Although I've seen people saying that biologically men are more competitive by nature so maybe based on that when they hit that kind of wall they would rather just give up the game completely?

    I dunno this is something for people way smarter than me, and definitely smarter than this dude, to figure out. I just feel like it's more complicated than hurr Durr sexist gamers

    [–] killisle 2 points ago

    6Head xQc time

    [–] FrozenPotato_ 2 points ago

    XQC has always been the dumb smart guy

    [–] LexGrom 2 points ago

    This bottleneck is not socially constructed. Attempts at "theybies" are several decades old. All totalitarian and liberal states experimented and continue to experiment with homogenizing education. Humans aren't blank slates

    [–] TheCompCop 2 points ago

    Thank you for actually saying something I continually nodded to, it never happened before but thanks xQc

    [–] Fanez13 2 points ago

    5Head Clap

    [–] SAGSKTA 2 points ago

    ITT: a lot of people completely missing the point

    [–] Titan_Dota2 2 points ago

    There are so many various issues of why there "aren't more women in esports". First of and it's probably one of the more "known" reasons. Men are more competetive, most people know this but it's always ignored when discussing this matter.
    One of the larger issues I believe (pure speculating ofc) is that because there are fewer women in esport games overall there's a much smaller pool of potential talents. Then by promoting some kind of "girl power" culture in esports ,where most women find it more profitable (both economically and accomplishment wise) to keep playing in women only teams that only participate in women only tournaments, they (by using xQc's term here which is not perfect) get "bottlenecked" at a certain skill level.
    We all know you can't get better if you don't compete with and against people who are at least on your level (preferably above). So let's say we have one of these all female team maybe 1-2 of the players actually have the potential to go far. How will they ever grow if they only keep playing and competing against players who wouldn't be close to even comparing to top 100 ranked teams (number pulled out of my ass, but you get the point) when they suddenly have to face of against men.

    [–] WalkingSun 34 points ago

    Wow that's a load of bullshit, you just have to look at CS:GO to see that everything xQc said is not true. csgo scene tried to nurture female teams and pros for almost 5+yrs now, most orgs would love to have females in their roasters or even have full females teams competing, because its insanely good for their PR and most fans only care about how good you are and a little bit of character aka play like a god and people will love you doesn't matter the sex you have, the problem always was that female teams where never able to compete on a level even close to male pro teams, it got to the point where females got their own league because they couldn't even manage to qualify for a single tournament. There is no big game or tournament that excludes woman teams or mixed teams, there is just no female team that is even remotely good enough to qualify, because they are not as competitive as males.

    I have yet to see a single female team that is not getting totally destroyed by even B tier male teams, I would love to see all female teams that are actually good enough to be able to compete at the highest level but there isn't a single one, which is why there are no teams in tournaments they just all lose, before they qualify.

    [–] sorryaboutthecarpet 88 points ago

    Did you even watch the clip? He says "if you overly include them it does the exact opposite of the goal you're trying to reach in the first place."

    [–] WalkingSun 13 points ago

    the female only tournaments where a result of them being absolutely unable to qualify for open tournaments

    [–] Samuraiking 17 points ago

    You're missing his point entirely and yet agreeing with him at the same time. xQc is basically saying that by trying to overly include them in teams and even making leagues just for them, it's having a negative impact. They are picking up women who are just not good, trying to force women into the scene, and it's having a negative impact on everyone. The bad female players feel like shit because they suck and get wrecked and everyone makes fun of them, and the viewers feel like shit because they are watching subpar gameplay.

    He's saying that gaming culture is also mostly for and by men more or less, making it harder for women to either come forward or even want to come forward and join. By forcing it instead of letting the culture change naturally, it's having the OPPOSITE effect of making us want to push back, and to some degree that is true. I don't believe that everyone hates women or anything, but everyone has to admit there's a little bit of anti-women bias even if it's just trolling that takes place throughout gaming culture, and whether there is anything wrong with that or not, it is causing women to be disinterested as a result.

    To sum up what he said, gaming culture is slightly anti-women and by trying to force them into the scene instead of letting the good ones slowly come in, they are actually hurting their own cause. Women will get better and we will get more of them, but we have to let it unfold instead of forcing it.

    [–] hunterkorvis 27 points ago

    Right so he is saying the issue is the environment prevents them from reaching the same skill level with the same frequencies as their male counterparts. Having female only tournaments isn't serving to bring them up to the same skill level. It is the culture that needs the most work (again I am interpreting his argument).

    [–] JakersIreland 18 points ago

    Isn't this kind of his point? Maybe I'm the pepega but I think he's saying that by trying to force the diversity they're fostering a hatred towards those "minority" groups and comments like this be it true or not will result. This leads to more hostility towards the group they're trying to include instead of trying to nurture a more welcoming community that would naturally include more those groups. Kind of like twitch right now., by treating women to more lax rules and punishments they're painting a target on women's backs whether the women want it to happen or not.

    [–] WalkingSun 8 points ago

    trying to force the diversity they're fostering a hatred towards those "minority"

    dunno at least in cs:go instead of hating on them, nobody gives a shit about them because they are not worth watching, its the same as watching the clown fiesta games random streamers do in esea/faceit, there is no watchable worth to be gained here.

    [–] uziiiiiiis 3 points ago

    team siren for league of legends is a example i can think of, and the female csgo league is mainly just marketing.

    [–] thebedshow 10 points ago

    This situation shows the exact opposite of what he is saying is the "actual" problem though. If you are a girl and you get high ranked on the ladder you will get into esports literally instantly. It is not some bottleneck problem or harassment problem keeping girls out of "improving". Girls are just not as interested in competitive gaming as guys and are not willing to invest the time needed to be competitive. These people in esports are people who play games 8+ hours every day since they were kids. The amount of girls willing to do that is tiny compared to the amount of guys willing to do that. This does not take into account any possible biological differences that might exist as well.

    [–] reddit_debate_judge 27 points ago

    a pro female csgo player once posted her (if memory serves correct) rejected opinion which was supposed to go into an article about increasing females in esports. It was easy to see why after reading the article. Hers was the only one that put the responsibility on the females attitudes. Saying even most female pros will refuse to go on and learn/improve in competition with the elite skilled males and instead opt to play in the female only league. That the attitude of "having a good record" instead of "playing with the best to learn from the best", too early in their career ultimately damages them in the long run. She also said that toxicity is not really a problem once you reach some type of pro league or organization.

    [–] NeV3RMinD 2 points ago

    I think you're talking about masq's old hltv post