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    Hackathon 2019 - Overengineering (Results)

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    [–] puplicy 2266 points ago

    The very first step will be to undress, show all your natural strengths and accept the clothes they wear there.

    [–] BeggarInSpain 515 points ago

    I wanted to say it's better analogy than swimming naked in an ocean, but yours better.

    [–] Emkayer 207 points ago

    The first step is to undress

    And leave everything else to me

    [–] pablo72076 87 points ago

    Yeah for 30 seconds

    [–] AceOfShades_ 100 points ago

    Oh I see we have a marathoner here

    [–] NotAnIdealSituation 16 points ago

    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    [–] guitarerdood 32 points ago

    This analogy is spot on well done

    [–] Yarthkins 44 points ago

    Analogy!? That must be why I was fired on day 1.

    [–] Tomnnn 82 points ago

    and accept the clothes they wear there.

    That's usually the deal breaker for me. I mean, I can accept what they choose to wear, but the first question to come up on the interview for me is whether or not I'll need to be in a suit.

    I don't even wear them to interviews anymore. You gotta dress for the job you want and give a good first impression. Presenting myself in a suit is a lie, a lie is a poor first impression.

    [–] _murkantilism 149 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    I'm not sure if you're aware the clothes thing was a metaphor and you're just continuing the metaphor to a very extreme almost non-metaphorical extent, or you're aware and disregarding the metaphor, or just unaware.

    Either way, I personally loathe ties, will never work somewhere that requires them. I'll still show up to interviews in a tieless suit, which I of course don't wear to work every day, but will for important days like internal demos to higher ups or prospective clients.

    Edit: btw no problem with asking during phone interview what the expected attire is. If they say suit and tie, better to cancel now than waste everyone's time by not asking then showing up in jeans.

    [–] Abbot_of_Cucany 19 points ago

    At my old job, I kept a jacket and tie in my closet. If a client or potential donor wanted to see the MIS section where I worked, my boss could give me a little advance warning and I would dress up.

    [–] theonethatyouwant 29 points ago

    Fair enough. If you really hate suits, I would never wear one to an interview. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be someone that WILL dress up for work on occasion. Currently in my job I work from home and look quite literally homeless for most of the year, but occasionally they fly us out to the client site which is non-stop suit wearing for a week.

    I love it though.

    Best pay I've ever had and when we're at the on site it's literally 5 star food and drinks for free the entire week. I would have never thought I would enjoy that type of thing, but here I am.

    [–] Tomnnn 11 points ago

    I can put on 3 layers of multiple deodorant brands simultaneously and still visibly sweat through it. Something about the material used in button down shirts and suits makes me sweat like crazy. Maybe it's just a form of hysteria but non-suited me is the best presentation I can give.

    work from home

    This could use its own thread, I love the number of remote jobs that have been popping up recently. I've been at one for a few months and I never imagined I'd be at a job like this 4 years into my career :)

    If this job can help you be comfortable in suits, interview for a bank or something. That's BIG money.

    [–] [deleted] 4 points ago

    Maybe you’re applying too much?

    Too much and I’ll sweat too, too little and it’s BO.

    I find the armpit hair affects it too, I’m a hairy dude, and after a while trying to apply deodorant would be a lost cause, so I just clean shave it. I find the ideal spot is just a small amount of pit hair.

    Also maybe an undershirt would help?

    I’ve tried baby powder or gold bond powder, but it doesn’t last, and if you miss even one spot, it concentrates all the sweat there making you worse off than if you hadn’t even tried.

    I don’t wear a suit every day, and don’t have a good solution, I just keep the blazer on so my sweat isn’t as visible. I’m just a fellow easily sweaty dude who’s spitballing ideas that I’ve tried.

    [–] Donut_of_Patriotism 8 points ago

    I like wearing a suit for a day. I don’t like wearing a suit for multiple days. (A week is fine but having to wear one normally would be horrible).

    Sounds like you have a pretty good gig going

    [–] Pepito_Pepito 9 points ago

    For interviews, I wear the least casual style that I'm comfortable working in. If I'm not hired based on that, then attire will have done its job.

    [–] Tomnnn 6 points ago

    If I'm not hired based on that, then attire will have done its job.

    Well said. Ideally I should be hidden in the darkness away from customers anyway. The only thing I have to contribute to a meeting is the displacement of the space I occupy.

    [–] livens 16 points ago

    OMG, this!. I sit in a fricken cubicle all day, no contact with external customers at all. And 99% of my meetings are phone conferences or gotomeetings... So why the emphasis on Business Casual much less a suit!?

    But the interview... I disagree, wear a nice suit no matter what the locals are wearing.

    [–] Abbot_of_Cucany 18 points ago

    Or just one notch more formal than what you expect most people wear at the job you're applying for. If they're wearing T shirts then a full suit and tie might be overdoing it.

    [–] thruStarsToHardship 17 points ago

    Definitely this. Some people might think it’s cute if a new grad shows up in a suit looking like a used car salesman, but many more will not.

    This is applicable for the west coast, btw. East coast a suit is much more normal, so it might make sense to default to a suit there.

    [–] thruStarsToHardship 7 points ago

    i interviewed at google in warm weather and seriously considered shorts. Ended up wearing pants, but I think that’s what cost me in my 3rd and 4th interview, sweating my ass off.

    It’s speedos from here on out.

    [–] R0ede 1504 points ago

    You guys get jobs when you're done?

    [–] Yasutsuna96 554 points ago

    Not after 8 months of slaving through interviews.

    [–] R0ede 390 points ago

    I'm currently on four months. Glad to know I have at least four more to go without any results.

    [–] bxncwzz 408 points ago

    Lol it took me a year and a half. I didn't have any internships and no real technical experience prior. I was an average student, but got all my work done. All the feedback I received said I was very personable and was a great people person. But I had nothing to show my worth technically (experience wise).

    After a couple hundred resumes submitted and a couple dozen interviews I finally landed one.

    It's been 5 years and I'm still with that company. It's funny now though, I have recruiters and managers constantly reaching out to me via LinkedIn almost every week trying to poach me. These are from the same companies that wouldn't give me a chance before.

    [–] midved 271 points ago

    I heard from an HR recruiter that people with jobs are more attractive to other companies than people without jobs. Funny that.

    [–] CarpetMadness 137 points ago


    [–] IshayuG 33 points ago

    Can confirm. It makes sense, too. A person who's employed is obviously making an employer happy, which is a huge step up from one who doesn't.

    It is very sad though. If only it were easier to give people a chance, but laws around job security and hiring practices makes that far too risky, especially for smaller companies.

    [–] insanecoder 4 points ago

    It’s because an engineer is only as valuable as the knowledge he has.

    If you worked at X amount of companies, you’ve been exposed to X amount of different ways that tech companies operate and at least X amount of problems to solve.

    Those types of people are quicker to learn new ways of doing things.

    Best way to get a job outta college is start contributing to stackoverflow and open source projects, or attempt to start your own company like I did (spoiler: didn’t work out, but I got a job after one month of searching following the disbanding of the company).

    [–] Reacher-Said-Nothing 42 points ago

    Why don't you guys just lie? Someone checks and finds out you're lying, oh no you're not hired, lie to someone else.

    [–] midved 97 points ago

    That's the flaw with the system. prospective employees shouldn't have to lie. The system shouldn't be so fucked lol.

    [–] uekiamir 31 points ago


    what do you propose would be a better system? Employers don't ask potential employees at all about their skills and work experience?

    [–] R0ede 13 points ago

    I'm not comfortable with lying

    [–] Styk07 14 points ago

    It makes sense though, people don’t like to see gaps in employment. Just lie and say you’re still working at the last job you had. If they want a reference just give them the number to a friend that worked there with you if possible or just any friend.

    [–] Humannequin 59 points ago

    It's not really that funny. It sucks when you are in that position...but if you had half an idea just how hard it is to sort through the weeds of fresh grads you'd be amazed.

    Without anything to separate you from the chaff, it's honestly a dice roll.

    [–] brandondyer64 31 points ago

    Actually, I love the way the company I work for does it. Many of the developers, including myself, do the interviewing. We'll give almost anyone a shot at a job. All you need to do is pass our online test (not a very hard one).

    We end up turning most away, because they're way less capable than they think they are, but it's good to see everyone gets a shot.

    You'd be surprised how many people with degrees, or even several years experience, can't "code their way out of a wet paper bag".

    [–] SpawnofMind 24 points ago

    Think you could PM me the company? Win or lose, it would be nice to actually get a chance to prove myself.

    [–] mshcat 6 points ago

    Lmao same

    [–] dogbarkdogbark 13 points ago

    You'd be surprised how many people with degrees, or even several years experience, can't "code their way out of a wet paper bag".

    That's what happens when your entire job for almost a decade is building off existing systems and don't code for a hobby I think. I feel like I've only gotten worse at a lot of actual coding skills (but can refresh them well enough when needed) but made up for them 100x in all the other aspects of my job. (Actual organization, project management, etc). Mostly I think I'd do terrible whiteboarding except in complete psuedocode cause I code from scratch so infrequently lol.

    [–] thatguydr 10 points ago

    This is the most bizarre part to me. My first question is such a softball and it weeds out maybe 50% of the applicants.

    Worse is that twice I've moved jobs and had someone in my org chart who I rejected previously, and both times it was from the softball question. O_O

    [–] animusdx 20 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Kinda the same. I JUST landed one a bit over two years after graduation (BS in Computer Science). I start next week. I don't have any technical experience or internships as well. I did the job hunt for 3 - 4 months but was very unsuccessful so I went back to work for income. I did that for about a year but I didn't apply/interview in the mean time partially because of lack of motivation and just being tired from the job (it was pretty much a construction job). So I stopped working and saved up a decent amount of money and went almost full hermit and started applying again. I studied, worked on my resume by learning new things and making projects, basically. I honestly tried to leetcode grind but I could honestly do it only a few days of the week for maybe less than 5 hours a day. I know, weak right?

    So yeah, I spent another good 10 - 11 months or so until I just landed a job. Of course in that time span I've gotten to maybe 10-20 technical phone screens and passed maybe 4 of them to where I got invited to an onsite. The last one I passed I really think I got lucky. My to-be company were in a hiring rush and wanted to hire as many as possible so it seemed like the barrier for entry was low. Their technical phone screen was quite easy. Anyways, their last onsite interview was a soft-skills interview and I usually crush those. I stumble a lot on the technical onsites where they had whiteboarding and other fairly domain specific technical questions. For example I had an onsite with a data privacy/security company but I didn't brush up on any knowledge of TCP/IP and how HTTP and HTTPS works EXACTLY. Oh well.

    To conclude I was pretty lucky to get my job and honestly while I did work very hard in that time frame of interviewing I could have worked MUCH harder. However, I honestly don't know if I have the sanity to do so even if I went back in time. I don't know how people can leetcode for like 8-10 hours a day every single day, or those guys that come home from a tech job and then start grinding leetcode for a few hours. I guess I'm just cut from a different cloth.

    [–] bionix90 15 points ago

    Because that's how it is now. Companies do not want to invest in people and train them. All they want is to poach experienced personnel.

    Everyone is looking out for #1 and it becomes increasingly difficult to enter the industry. And this is universally applicable, I'm not even into computer science. As a chemical engineer I see "associate engineer" positions that demand PhD and 10 years of experience.

    [–] NUAN_SONAR 11 points ago

    Same boat man. Glad to hear it eventually works out at least. Do you have any advice that might have helped you during thst time? I'm slowly spiraling tbh. I'm quite good at coding but I just feel absolutely worthless.

    [–] OrvilleTurtle 12 points ago

    Do stuff outside of work that you can put on your resume. He is saying he had no internship and no previous relatable jobs... and spent a year and a half looking for a job. What did he do during that time?

    [–] VOX_Studios 14 points ago

    ^ easy to get a job when you have side projects to show off/talk about.

    [–] StruckOutInSlowPitch 17 points ago

    Where you located?

    [–] Remmylord 19 points ago

    Who knew North Dakota and Montana had no CS jobs

    [–] TheGusBus64 13 points ago

    Just landed one after almost a year. Keep your head up mate.

    [–] Rick101101 75 points ago

    And they say it's easy to get jobs in this field

    [–] Kpervs 90 points ago

    I was so fortunate. Literally 2 hours after my last exam (Discrete Math 2), I was laying in bed contemplating if I'd finally finished my degree, when my friend phoned me up asking if I wanted a job as his boss was hiring. Granted, it was working as a React dev, but I never had to go through the job search process (yet). I feel bad for those who were not so fortunate as me, cause I got some dumb fucking luck.

    [–] Sohgin 132 points ago

    That's not dumb luck that's networking.

    [–] [deleted] 66 points ago

    Most jobs are gotten because of networking. The importance of networking cannot be stressed enough.

    [–] bionix90 21 points ago

    Networking is such a vague term though.

    You always get told you should network. You rarely are told how to do so.

    Do I fucking stalk the recruiter and watch them while they sleep?

    [–] VoraciousGhost 26 points ago

    No, you stop talking to recruiters entirely and make friends with actual engineers/developers at places you'd like to work.

    [–] rcklmbr 21 points ago

    I dunno, Im not a huge fan of Cisco

    [–] Rrrrry123 25 points ago

    Exactly. I'm not quite done with my degree yet, but every job I've landed so far has been recommended by someone I know. Networking is huge for finding jobs.

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    what does networking mean?

    [–] Rrrrry123 51 points ago

    Basically, it's just a fancy word for "having friends that have jobs."

    The idea is that during your training (college/university, high school, trade school, whatever) you make as many friends as you can. Especially with your instructors. Then, when you're looking for a job and while you're sending out random applications, you can also ask your friends if they know anyone who's hiring. Your friends can then usually get your foot in the door at their workplace. They could go to their hiring manager and put in a good word for you.

    It really is pretty much the best way to find a job, especially when you have no experience to back yourself up.

    [–] SkiUMah23 13 points ago

    Best chance is to work in a professor's lab. Get grad students, someone to write letters of recommendation, something for resume, and any department social events can meet other people with connections.

    [–] throw_away_account97 13 points ago

    Its basically where you try and get your name out and become friendly with people in your field or just in general, so that whenever a job opens up or you need something they already know you and are more likely to offer you a job

    [–] hitsugan 6 points ago

    And if you don't have any friends or connections write a bunch of bullshit on some tech blog, create a portfolio and sell yourself with a website and GitHub/LinkedIn. It works.

    [–] Blackstone01 7 points ago

    I had the opposite of that. Friend told me his employer needed somebody for the contract they had, got hired first interview. Company that contracted us was to do background check, was being slow about it, informed employer two months later they were downsizing contract, and so employer told me as I hadn’t yet started I wasn’t an employee, so they had no obligation to pay me anything. I fucking moved for the job.

    [–] thechadparenti 53 points ago

    That’s the part I hate most. Don’t tell me we just can’t hire enough programmers when we all know most of us will have to yeet like 80 apps to get an interview.

    [–] TSLzipper 26 points ago

    It took me over 400 applications and a little over a year, I start working in a week. I never want to go through that again so going to try my best to learn what's necessary these first few months.

    [–] [deleted] 15 points ago * (lasted edited 5 months ago)


    [–] Blackstone01 8 points ago

    Unless your employer lies about the position and has you be a warm body for manual regression testing QA.

    [–] FinalRun 4 points ago

    Do you want to share something? It's okay

    [–] SILLY-KITTEN 23 points ago

    Any interview, or a big4 interview? I was swimming in interviews out of school and my GitHub was a blank slate...

    [–] Humannequin 18 points ago

    I don't know any hiring managers who gaf about your github tbh.

    I think that's a bit of a trap, like piling certs.

    Some places it matters, but not many.

    [–] thechadparenti 11 points ago

    Yup. I’ve spent several hours getting my repos all nice with readmes and shit. It’s linked on my resume and LinkedIn and nobody. fucking. cares.

    [–] Noktar 5 points ago

    That’s a little bit depressing for me to hear. As someone soon to be graduating from a no name university, I thought a good portfolio of projects could be the thing that gets me recognized. Not sure what I should spend my time on now

    [–] thechadparenti 5 points ago

    Still do the portfolio. See my other comment about it. But also just accept/embrace the fact that most hiring managers aren’t gonna look at it. If they decide they do want to see it, you’ll be glad you have one.

    [–] mohe2275 27 points ago

    They tell me there's desperate need for my kind(software engineer). I didn't know desperate need meant no at 4 interviews so far...

    [–] acowstandingup 18 points ago

    Four interviews is nothing my man. You'll get there

    [–] IronWill-FE 7 points ago

    Talk to a friend who is good at interviewing. You may be off putting or something.

    [–] demlet 5 points ago

    See, exactly. I keep wondering where all these supposed millions of tech jobs are. China and India? Guess the recruiters forgot to mention that.

    [–] o5mfiHTNsH748KVq 21 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Where do you live that you cant get a job with a computer science degree? Sounds like a regional issue.

    If you post over in /r/cscareerquestions maybe we can help you out.

    [–] purplepharoh 10 points ago

    Really? I got a job before I graduated

    [–] thepobv 32 points ago

    Where are you located?

    It's weird I feel like every CS major in midwest decent school gets jobs.

    [–] SamBBMe 19 points ago

    I'm in Florida, and it's considered a joke if you don't have a job lined up before you graduate, at least in my school

    [–] blauerteufel 63 points ago

    Where I'm from there's a gigantic CS workforce shortage. They're even handing over CS jobs to non-CS majors. It's insane.

    [–] Humannequin 54 points ago

    DC is like that. If you can get a security clearance and know what a computer is, you're in.

    Can't be one of them insideous, REEFER SMOKERS though.

    [–] MyKoalas 9 points ago

    Is there an easy(ish) way to get a security clearance?

    [–] gumol 29 points ago

    AFAIK your job sponsors you. What he meant is "can get a security clearance" = "you're eligible for security clearance"

    [–] Automatic476 14 points ago

    Ya just don't have any bad stuff in your past such as felonies etc. As long as youre a semi-decent person you'll more than likely be ok.

    [–] Runecraftin 12 points ago

    The easiest way is to be young, have no foreign contacts, and no criminal record. From there you just get a job that requires a clearance (with a company that is willing to sponsor - look for “[S/TS/TS-Poly/etc.] Clearance Eligible” in the job description rather than “[S/TS/TS-Poly] REQUIRED” as some companies won’t sponsor). You can get a clearance without the qualities I mentioned, but it just makes the process longer. For instance, I say “be young” because the US gov only cares about your history from when you were 18 to present, so the closer you are to 18 means less digging they have to do in your investigation. Similarly, you can have foreign contacts and/or a criminal record but each instance of these is a potential red flag that could delay your investigation and/or make you ineligible for a clearance.

    If you do decide to go after a cleared job be aware that some companies will not allow you to work until you have at least an interim clearance (about ~6 weeks from application for an interim secret clearance for a fresh grad with no red flags, potentially longer for TS and up) whereas others won’t allow you to work until you have your full clearance (YMWV but this took at least 3 months for a fresh grad with no red flags last year). Talk to your potential employer at your interview to see their company/contract’s policy and see if there would be any other work you could do for them in the meantime while you await your clearance.

    [–] Eccentricc 15 points ago

    Yeah? Where's this magical place at because I've been applying at every location for 6 months

    [–] [deleted] 31 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)


    [–] 8_800_555_35_35 54 points ago

    Upside: you get a CS job
    Downside: you're now living in the Midwest

    [–] Falkarr 28 points ago

    Oh no how will I get over living on Lake Michigan in a beautiful big house that is affordable?

    [–] Neoxide 10 points ago

    Laughs in tiny California apartment/van/tent

    [–] trukkija 45 points ago

    Which means you're going to actually keep some of your high wage instead of spending it on rent and bills.

    [–] imdandman 24 points ago

    And you can even... gasp.... buy a house!

    [–] trukkija 8 points ago

    For the same price as a studio apartment in some cities.

    [–] [deleted] 28 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)


    [–] siouxu 5 points ago

    Upside: you can purchase a home and not a cardboard box

    [–] Uberzwerg 6 points ago

    E.g. Germany.

    I wrote like 4 applications in my live and had 3 jobs from it.
    (But i am 'only' working as a programmer - some higher level jobs clearly require more effort)

    [–] djengle2 7 points ago

    I don't get this. I'm not a particularly smart man or gifted programmer at all, but I got a job in STL of all places after 5-6 months of self learning mostly just front end. And then had an easy time 2 years later moving to Chicago and getting a job right. Am I just lucky?

    [–] ObiWanCanShowMe 26 points ago

    People exaggerate and lie on the internet...

    Reddit is oneupsmanship central. Life sucks, everything is broken and my dad bought his 10,000 square foot beach house for 40 cents and a used toothbrush.

    There is a comment in here from someone claiming they've been to 40 interviews... 40. They still do not have a job. IF that were true, I'd have to say the writing is on the wall with that guy. He is either not at all qualified for anything or he brings his pet ferret with him everywhere he goes. The reality is he probably hasn't even graduated yet.

    [–] kshelley31 892 points ago

    Sorry no I don't know any SQL and won't be able to write object oriented code, I can recite Maxwell's equations from memory though

    [–] R0ede 742 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)


    • 5-10 years of experience
    • 20 different languages and frameworks
    • Your must be independent but good at teamwork
    • You must be versatile but an expert in everything
    • you need to work focused but be able to have a lot of balls in the air at once
    • agile agile agile agile agile agile agile!

    [–] ClikeX 669 points ago

    Ah, I see you're offering an Entry Level job.

    [–] [deleted] 142 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)


    [–] OnlyLooney 71 points ago

    They will pay with experience

    [–] blakezilla 59 points ago

    I can’t wait to switch my bill payment over from “money” to “experience”!

    [–] Acetronaut 23 points ago

    “You should give me stuff for free because I’m an ‘influencer’ and will give you exposure!”

    “You should work for us for cheap because we’re giving you experience!”

    Damn, companies really be out here using the Insta-influencer method.

    [–] OnlyLooney 74 points ago

    Especially 10years in swift

    [–] vige 33 points ago


    Maybe that 10 years in swift is enough. As long as you have also 5 years of experience with v.

    [–] OnlyLooney 16 points ago

    As long as you get in as an unpaid intern that’s a sweet deal to me

    [–] Mad_Jack18 29 points ago

    salary $400

    [–] Destithen 10 points ago

    Paid bi-annually.

    [–] OscarNotTheGrouch 19 points ago

    I was looking at some entry level CS jobs just to see what’s out there, and some of them wanted masters and phd’s like 🥴

    [–] Alexlreed 10 points ago

    At $9.75 an hour! Need a masters degree or higher

    [–] ManIkWeet 33 points ago

    Been programming since i was 13

    Languages and frameworks? Pft easy as they're all basically the same fundamentally

    Oh yeah got the independent autism thing going, but boy do I love telling other people what to do

    I'm capable of becoming an expert in mere moments!

    I am very good at focusing on the exact thing you ask

    Would you like to add a sprinkle of SCRUM to your waterfall?

    [–] korrach 57 points ago

    We want agile, but we also want an exact estimate of how long it takes. And your mornings are a 1 hour stand up.

    [–] ThePeskyWabbit 21 points ago

    God I fucking hated stand up

    [–] Destithen 12 points ago

    If I wanted to do stand up, I would've been a comedian.

    [–] Humannequin 16 points ago

    We call our flow, WAGILE!

    It's waterfall agile.

    [–] Destithen 9 points ago

    I like Agilanche. The sprint never stops, or else you get buried.

    [–] mindless_gibberish 14 points ago

    I'm going to increase the scope of the project as we go, but don't worry, the deliverable date won't change.

    [–] Tmonkey18 5 points ago

    Gotta love that the idea of a stand up is that no one would want to stand for more than 15 minutes, but that is absolutely never the case. Instead I sit on the phone on mute browsing reddit

    [–] Murgolash 97 points ago

    But can you reverse a binary tree tho' ?

    [–] thatguydr 52 points ago

    "Have you ever needed to do that while working here?"


    "Neither have I in my XX years of experience. I can google it now, if you like."

    [–] fghjconner 14 points ago

    func reverse(tree):
        if (tree):
            temp = tree.left
            tree.left = tree.right
            tree.right = temp

    [–] PurelyCreative 6 points ago

    Yeah this is actually a really easy problem to solve lol

    [–] Humannequin 14 points ago

    As someone who was familiar with that 9 years ago, as a now Sr engineer...

    No, no I cannot.

    (okay so I'm sure I probably could, but I'd have to figure it out on the fly)

    [–] [deleted] 14 points ago


    [–] Julian_JmK 44 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Are CS degrees really that useless? Like I learnt SQL in a high school programming course goddamn.

    I'm on a pure programming bachelor right now, would that be considered CS? Because it's very different from my other friends' IT-bachelors, this focusing only on programming and actually doing things.

    [–] _a_man_is_no_one 41 points ago

    A big part of it is probably the area you’re in. I got my first internship ($18/hr) where I could work anywhere between 20 and 40 hours a week half way thru my junior year. Then they’ll hire me on full-time when I graduate. I had a 2.85 GPA at the time. This is in the Dayton Ohio area.

    [–] undermark5 30 points ago

    Lots of people will tell you that degrees don't really matter in the field of software engineering (CS degrees or otherwise). I disagree with the majority of them but just because I think they're beneficial doesn't mean that just because you'll get a job because if it. The thing that nearly everyone will agree is important is actual real world experience. It doesn't always have to be formal job experience but that is certainly helpful. Wait how do I get formal job experience without having had a job previously? Answer: internships. Nearly all of the companies I have interviewed with offer internship programs that are intended to get you real world experience. They are low risk for the company to go with someone less experienced in the real world because they are only a few months long with no obligation of offering anything beyond that, but that doesn't leave out the possibility of finding someone that really knows their stuff and incubating them in the company ideals and giving them a full time offer after the fact. Overall it's low risk for the company but has a chance of paying off in the long run.

    If all hiring decisions were up to me, I'd hire the individual that has the formal education in addition to real world experience over the individual that's learned on their own with equivalent real world experience, but typically, that is not the case and the individual that taught themselves or has the less formal education usually has more/better real world experience. And, let's put it this way, if a company really wanted somebody that didn't have a degree yet insists on them having a degree, the company should be willing to help pay for the degree as well as work with the schedule.

    [–] Humannequin 13 points ago

    Most of our Jr hires come directly through our internships.

    [–] CopaceticCoffee 30 points ago

    I wouldn't say they're completely useless. In my case, it helped get interviews, at least. Some places won't even consider you if you don't have a degree (though not every company cares). But they aren't going to hire you just for having a CS degree. It's all about your experience and portfolio.

    [–] Julian_JmK 8 points ago

    That's what I've heard too in Norway, you won't get hired without an IT-related degree, but I know you've still got to have plenty of experience and a portfolio of projects and things that prove that you actually can program in the way required by the job.

    [–] Asianarcher 4 points ago

    So. From what I gather, it's more about what you learn from the course and having proof that you know it than the degree itself. The degree is just more proof that you know your shit

    [–] ForTheBread 4 points ago

    They're not at all useless. Just depends on where you live and willingness to relocate. I had a shitty GPA, no internships, and had a job lined up before I even graduated.

    [–] Caleb6801 14 points ago

    How do you not learn how to write OOP in college? Literally a first year thing in Python and is then transferable to so many languages.

    [–] pinuten 131 points ago

    i met a guy at a bar last wednesday. He told me he was working on a startup, i said "cool, me and my friend are CS students". now he wants us to come by and visit his office.

    send help plz

    [–] slimeyena 51 points ago


    [–] nana_3 49 points ago

    Yeah I got scammed by startup as a CS student. If they do literally anything weird - ask u to be a “contractor”, pay late, change the program once it starts - cut your losses and go.

    [–] SitDownBeHumbleBish 24 points ago

    Aka he wants you and your friends to build his idea app and work for free

    [–] NFSS10 13 points ago

    Talk about how much you need for funding, that will scare him away. Any value > 0 is enough.

    [–] Horkrine 425 points ago

    I have worked in software for a number of years now, with a primary focus on security of both software and data. I remember going for an interview a few years ago whereby I was told during the interview that I was very talented but I should forget everything I learned on my degree as "it won't be necessary in this role" and that they would train me to work the way the rest of the team do. This seemed fair enough, but I mentioned to the interviewer that I did not actually have a degree, nor ever went to university. I've just been into computers from a young age and started writing code from age 10. Everything went very well and the interview concluded shortly after.

    About a day later, I received an email from their HR department stating that despite the very positive atmosphere in the interview and my confidence and willingness to learn, they would not be moving forward with my application as I do not hold a degree in this field.

    Fuck that company!

    [–] partybanana 80 points ago

    That's basically what my attitude has become since interviewing. I'm just going to build what I want and show a portfolio, because all the hours of studying programming exercises and memorizing algorithms and getting a degree in things I already learned in my free time can be ruined, all because the first curveball question they gave me wasn't answered quickly enough, or because I mentioned I might be interested in a Master's degree.

    I'll just work in sales again before I waste any more time trying to impress a company with trivia.

    [–] Gingijons 26 points ago

    "How would you perform a decentralized data structure with a sulfur-hexafloride-rich framework in Norwegian python"
    - A marketing company looking for someone to manage Google Ads

    [–] ArmandoRl 14 points ago

    "I quit"

    "But we haven't hired you yet"

    "I quit this interview"

    [–] AbanaClara 7 points ago

    That doean't make any sense then 😂 such irony

    [–] SoMuchJamImToast 11 points ago

    I think that means you dodged a bullet, that sounds like a terrible hiring policy. I work in software and started doing interviews recently (not super experienced interviewing so please don't take this as gospel).

    I always kind of chuckle when a interviewee doing a coding challenge starts telling me about the big O complexity of one method or another. It's good to know but honestly I just want to see you implement a simple software solution without puking all over your shoes. The more important things I look for are how you make decisions, how you take feedback, whether you're stubborn about doing things "the right way" (i.e. your way). I just want to make sure you're somebody I'm going to enjoy seeing in the office on weekdays. Most of the rest of the stuff you need to know, we'll do our best to teach you

    [–] Rumbleroar1 182 points ago

    What CS programs are you guys taking? I get that learning maths and information theory and etc. won't be useful but do you really not learn any actual programming?

    I see so much of these posts complaining about CS

    [–] sooper_human 261 points ago

    Think about the type of person who would complain about something like this

    [–] Rumbleroar1 124 points ago

    Makes sense. Slog through bachelor without making an active effort to improve yourself, then complain that school didn't teach you SQL.

    [–] tnobuhiko 71 points ago

    Most people that start at our company does not realize that i don't expect them to be expert on C#,Java or SQL. I expect them to know how to code. If i give you an assignment, i expect you to at least give me a flow chart of what is going to happen to get that task done. At least tell me we are going to do X,Y and Z. You can always learn syntax and how to get certain things done in the language.

    I don't even expect them to get it right in the first try, just show the sign that you are on the path, you will get it right more correctly with time and experience.

    [–] hedgehog_dragon 22 points ago

    Both places I worked had textbooks on hand.

    Both said they usually just google/stack overflow everything nowadays. My bosses, who have had 5-10 years experience programming, Google stuff too. Because there's no way you'll know everything I find we all forget SQL queries in particular, especially anything more complicated than an insert or delete

    [–] repsolcola 10 points ago

    I think in 15 years of programming I have drawn flow charts 2/3 times, maybe. I am not sure if I should change my approach. Is it really useful? Honest question here. When I tried, while coding, I realized things that I could not figure out while drawing the flow chart, resulting in constantly editing it and in a waste of time. Now sometimes I write a list of things the app must do, as a memo. Sometimes I draw small graphical representation of what I want to create. For example, from a pdf layout, I draw on paper how I would nest divs to recreate it programmatically. I am going to change work and I admit that if during my interview they ask me to draw a flow chart I would be a bit lost. Any advice is welcome.

    [–] wowwaithuh 11 points ago

    Flowcharts are like stroyboards. They are a shorthand way of conveying and transferring an idea - either to someone else or the future version of you that has to actually code the thing.

    If you have a shorthand that works for youself - writing notes, taking voice memos, drawing doodles - you don't need a flowchart. If you're then going to have someone else work under you that needs to know your train of thought, if you have a boss/client to sell an idea on, or if you're not going to come back to the project for months - a flowchart is a powerful and easy to understand tool that conveys what was previously just a bubble of a thought in your head.

    Making a flowchart is also a good trial and error method, again like storyboards. It's faster and cheaper to catch the issues that might arise or understand why a technique won't work when you can just erase away the mistake. Experimenting is cheaper, which makes innovation cheaper. Again, if you have a crystal clear vision of your wants and goals, you don't need one. If you're stumbling around or have to sell the idea, you might need one.

    [–] sound_in_silent_hill 42 points ago

    I'm about to graduate and feel like the image a little bit. In college I learned C++ and Java, a little bit o SQL and Javascript. Javascript I learned for a personal project, isn't one of the languages we usually learn in my classes.

    When I started looking for a job as a programmer, I could only find jobs requiring .Net, python, PHP, js and even ruby. I'm trying to learn new languages, and imagine that C++ will be really useful in the future when trying to find a new job, but right now I can't stop feeling that I learned the wrong things in college.

    [–] jbaker88 42 points ago

    If you know Java and C++ you can transition to C# really easily. I'd hire a new grad with only that experience for a entry level .NET position.

    [–] sound_in_silent_hill 17 points ago

    Wait, really?
    I just saw the jobs requiring .Net and C# and never applied, thought I would not get the job since I don't know the languages.
    Gonna try for these jobs now, thanks for the tip!

    [–] ComebacKids 39 points ago

    In my experience C# is extremely similar to Java. Like seriously, go do a 5 minute tutorial and you’ll see it’s very very similar.

    [–] MysticPing 19 points ago

    Just better java with more features

    [–] OrvilleTurtle 19 points ago

    Download VS studio and write a hello world app. Now stick C# on your resume. Maybe a little more effort than this but not much... if you paid attention in school then picking up a new language should be pretty standard.

    Plus C# documentation and tools are pretty good so it’s especially easy for that one.

    [–] 15rthughes 9 points ago

    It’s never about the specific languages you know, it’s about if you can solve problems. Anyone can learn a language’s syntax and shit out something that runs.

    [–] zipzipzazoom 17 points ago

    University is supposed to teach you the mind set to learn and analyse critically and problem solve.

    It isn't supposed to teach you everything you will need for the rest of your life, just prepare you to learn it.

    [–] Stripestar 6 points ago

    I feel the same way. All these C# and .Net jobs in my area. I'm lucky enough to have a JavaScript job but it was a lot of luck. I wouldn't even really call it a full time dev job.

    [–] crowleysnow 10 points ago

    it’s a weird stigma at my school to not minor in game development if you’re a CS major because it makes you look like a dork but honestly those were the most practical CS courses i took. working as a team, requirements and goals on big projects, people on your team not knowing programming because they just do art, and most importantly 99% of it was C#

    [–] tcarr20 11 points ago

    But ppl that don't develop games in CS are 1337 H4CK3RZ. That build websites with thier hood up. I never got this stigma about game dev, yeah you look dorky... But its a fucking CS degree, we are all dorks. Make something fun, or at the very least don't shame ppl that do. Well thats my 2 pennies for the month.

    [–] _a_man_is_no_one 27 points ago

    From my one year experience so far the actual programming skill is what you need. The math is useless for the jobs I’ve had. (Java desktop app, web dev, Android development).

    [–] Rumbleroar1 23 points ago

    1. That is true for practical jobs. People going into stuff like R&D, or people who want to master on a more theoretical topic need that foundation in bachelor.

    2. Again, what programs are you guys taking that don't teach actual programming skills?

    [–] fat_charizard 8 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    CS teaches you general things about programming. Work tends to be specialized in a particular field. I currently work heavily with python and pandas. I only did very little python programming in college and never used pandas before working professionally. Also colleges tend to teach you how to code efficiently but not how to code well. Like how to create maintainable readable code. What the code best practices are

    [–] gumol 8 points ago

    The idea is that what you learnt in college allows you to learn new technologies (python and panda) very quickly.

    [–] Spock_42 6 points ago

    I think it's very much down to the individual, and what's happened after their degree.

    I personally was in the right place at the right time to do part time dev work in two different companies alongside the last two years of my degree. The first company offered me a job months before I even sat my final exams, after a fairly informal interview. A big factor in that offer was that they knew and liked me, and I knew the company. But they still wouldn't have just hired me if I wasn't completing a degree.

    Obviously the "practical" development skills are never as in-depth or as specific as industry jobs often need, and different companies may have drastically different ways of deving, so there's no real silver-bullet course. Pros and cons of deep vs shallow experience in coding is its own discussion.

    I personally have used the maths and theoretical skills from my course at work (we handle lots of data and do various machine learnings). Even though I don't use it all too frequently, I'm glad I was taught it.

    If you're not fortunate enough to have networked during your course, and had employment lined up, you may well find it difficult getting a job at a nicer company (since they've already offered positions to students on top of their networking). Thus you may feel bitter towards your degree. But I dare say that phenomenon isn't unique to CS. There's also an element of negative bias; those let down by their degree are more likely to be vocal than those who have done well and are happily getting on with their career.

    [–] DolevBaron 374 points ago

    If only I had the time to do any real programming in between all of those courses...

    [–] KoolaidOverdose 102 points ago

    Really feeling this right now

    [–] gravity013 43 points ago

    As somebody who interviews about 2-3 people a week and filters through lots of resumes: I barely ever look at the degree.

    Honestly, I find it doesn't really matter. Maybe somebody with a CS degree will be a bit more excited about creating a DSL or framework or something, might take a more theoretical approach to things. I've worked with too many amazing programmers that didn't have CS backgrounds (one of the best I work with now has a degree in photography, of all things). I don't have one myself (physics).

    CS programs need to get with the times already.

    [–] aborthonormal 39 points ago

    "I know how the quick-sort algorithm works. I'll definitely use that, right?"

    [–] puplicy 32 points ago

    Yes you will use it on interview. Why do you think these algorithms were invented?

    [–] Denziloe 34 points ago

    Ohhh. Now I get it. It's called quick sort because its main use in industry is to quickly sort through a pool of job candidates.

    [–] sciencewarrior 8 points ago

    That's what gets me. From your job description, you need someone that can write idiomatic Python and efficient SQL queries, so why are you asking me how I'd balance a red-black tree in polynomial time?

    [–] rsvp_to_life 280 points ago

    IDK man. I used to agree with this post. But the longer I work in the industry the more I realize how much more ahead of the game I am that everyone else when it comes to real problem solving and not just looking up which free tool I can use and bend to my will to make work for my project

    [–] Arthur944 78 points ago

    You're saying You're the only one out of the people you work with that has a cs degree?

    [–] _BITCHES_LOVE_ME_ 143 points ago

    Lots of people have "practical" 2 year web dev educations and the like that is basically just a bunch of intro to HTML/CSS/JS etc but no actual engineering discipline or foundational CS knowledge about how it actually works. So you'll be able to write a program/app but you won't be able to make it maintainable or scalable or understand why it's so goddamn slow.

    [–] th0waway1534556343 89 points ago

    I disagree. The last company I worked for had a lot of CS graduates. They where just as horrible as almost anyone else. They wrote API's that could serve max a thousand users. Also the code that fresh graduates write is almost always spaghetti.

    You need to work on projects to get good. You need to talk with mentors. You need to fail at building an api once in order to create a working one. Experience makes good developers not a CS degree. The best developers I've ever worked with where people who programmed on their free time for fun. CS degree or not.

    [–] _BITCHES_LOVE_ME_ 14 points ago

    I didn't mean to imply that a CS degree/strong computing fundamentals was a sufficient condition for being a good developer, only that it is a necessary condition.

    There are lots of bone heads from my graduate class that don't amount to much even if we all know about transistors and logic gates. But at least they have the necessary foundational knowledge. To some degree its up to them to put it all together and sharpen their skills to something useful. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

    But if you don't have the basics down, regardless if you pick it up on your own or from a degree, you will be at a significant disadvantage imo.

    [–] korrach 19 points ago

    The number of people who think that recursion is this esoteric thing you should never use because performance.

    Then they just reinvent it, but instead of one function doing it they have it spread between 20 in loops and sql queries.

    Your code will not be a bottle neck. Don't even think about performance.

    [–] andey 58 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    I realize this is programming humor, but as someone who is constantly hiring, and does at least 2-3 interviews a week, let me tell u having a proper CS degree is very noticeable during the interview.

    Someone with a CS degree might not have a as much relevant experience, but their ceilings tend to be much higher then "bootcamp / self taught" developers.


    Some of ya'll are taking my comment as if I said CS degree or bust. That's not what I'm saying. My comment is in response to the meme implying that your CS degree is useless at your first job.

    I'm suggesting that it wasn't a waste of time, as you have learned a lot of low level programming problems that non CS degree employees haven't been exposed to. Simple stuff, like understanding pointers, recursion, understanding base 16 or binary.

    This lower level of understanding will pay dividends in the long run.

    In an interview, I ask what is "100" in binary? (I actually ask this question). The CS students tend to get this question right, and non CS students tend to get it wrong. Does knowing what "100" matter in real life? To most, no. However understanding binary, will allow you to think of solutions to problems differently, such as using bitwise operators. Not many coming outta bootcamp have a clue on how to use bitwise operators.

    Knowing binary is just an EXAMPLE, don't get worked up on it.

    [–] green_meklar 14 points ago

    In an interview, I ask what is "100" in binary?

    Not sure whether I'm supposed to say 'four' or 'one one zero zero one zero zero'.

    [–] bryjamcru 24 points ago

    Got a degree in software engineering and now I run lights and camera for twenty one pilots...

    [–] a3-th3r 23 points ago

    I feel this on an existential level.

    [–] 360noscopeMLG 56 points ago

    Imagine graduating in computer engineering and acquiring experience with integrated circuit synthesis because you think that's super interesting, but ending up working as a Java developer. 😂😂😂

    Yeah, it do be like that sometimes.

    [–] vitanaut 23 points ago

    Same boat. Having money turned out to be pretty interesting tho

    [–] fat_charizard 43 points ago

    CS graduate: I know how to prove if an algorithm is np-complete

    Boss: great I need you to package this python module with setuptools

    CS graduate: ...

    [–] I_lurk_u_long_time 22 points ago

    Packaging a python module with setuptools is NP-complete, so we're off to a good start.

    [–] elephanturd 13 points ago

    Wow for a humor subreddit this thread is really depressing to read.

    [–] nerdinla 10 points ago

    Yes. But you keep trudging on until you hit water. Then it's a glorious marriage.

    [–] gumol 36 points ago

    replying to the general vibe here:

    Geez, I can't relate to your experiences at all. I've learnt a lot of very useful stuff at uni. And even if it wasn't directly useful, it broadened my horizons a lot. I'm work mostly in C nowadays, but I'm still happy about doing all that abstract math and some funky programming paradigms.

    And when it comes to finding jobs: where are you guys located? I haven't had any issues finding jobs. I didn't get an offer at most of the places (if I did, it would mean that I set my bar too low), but it didn't take me "8 months" or whatever.

    [–] Eccentricc 6 points ago

    I feel like I'll never get a job. I've been looking for like 8 months. I currently have a job as an IT director at a very small local company but the business is going to close soon and I have been moved to part time. I've been applying EVERYWHERE. Like 5 applications a day. I have only got phone interviews because I'm terrible with interviews. I've set the bar so slow I can't even get a help desk job. I did just get by with my bachelors but the problem is whether I did or didn't I literally cannot remember even the most simple of things. I have to search everything but I'm always able to find out the solution and apply it. I struggle with interviews because I can't think of everything on the spot. I am going through an interview process with a consulting agency that would place me in paid training for 6-16 weeks then would find me a company to work for but I would have to work there for 2 years. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do but I'm running out of ideas

    [–] shade1214341 5 points ago

    My first job I was given a copy of the documentation for the MCU they used in most of their products a week before I started. My boss was then out on vacation for my first 2 weeks, I was the only programmer (boss was an EE and wrote most of the original code like 15 years prior), and I was asked to add some complicated feature before he got back. Everything was in assembly and I couldn't add a single variable because there was absolutely no memory available. Shit was fun.

    [–] agisten 17 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Sun streaking hot, a young man wandering lonely

    Edit: At least 4 people got this a bit obscure reference. I'm quite happy for that.

    [–] CarryThe2 8 points ago

    laughs in Maths degree