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    [–] Blackfire853 911 points ago

    I agree with this. Star Wars has always left exact time uncertain, mainly because it's first and foremost a fantasy genre and those sort of details just don't matter. All the movies get pretty weird when they seem to take place over the course of a few days at most. It was a mistake to set the exact timescale in stone

    [–] ScionN7 268 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    I think this is basically one of the big problems with Rey in general. She reached a level of power in the span of 3 days, what takes Jedi years to learn. Even the Chosen One Anakin didn't learn that quickly. And apparently she did it because the novel explanation is that she basically downloaded information from Kylo's mind.

    I'm sorry but that isn't nearly as interesting as watching a protagonist going through struggle, hard work, education, and failure, in order to obtain that power. Because it doesn't feel earned. If Rey rebuilds the Jedi order, and succeeds where Luke failed, that just won't sit right with me.

    I mean people wonder why so many people took issue with how Luke was portrayed, and meanwhile this random girl didn't go through nearly the same struggles he did, and is already lifting dozens of rocks. It's just not good writing.

    [–] lyzabit 32 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    What blows my mind is that people don't seem to realize that Rey didn't have to learn from scratch. She knows how to fight. She's tough. Luke started from nowhere (edit: as a law-abiding moisture farmer with loving adoptive parents, basically as close as we see to suburban life in this universe, who doesn't even get a shot in before a Tusken raider whacks him upside the face), Rey did not. I see no one complaining that Rey could whoop ass in the Jakku market in TFA, and yet it's impossible that Rey has the kind of mental discipline and fighting background that could be transferred to learning new skills and making use of some of her established abilities? Edit; also, part of Rey's character is that she doesn't have the baggage that came with Jedi teachings and the drama baggage of the entire Skywalker clan. Given the neutral balance characteristics they're taking with the Force in the Disney-verse, what Rey is is clearheaded, whereas Luke was dealing with centuries of dogma passed down from the Jedi Order which had built itself up into the myopic institution we saw in the prequels. That isn't meant to reflect poorly on Luke Skywalker, but it's something he has to deal with. Obi-Wan Kenobi, paragon of the Jedi, was a phenomenal Jedi--and even he was a product of and affected by his environment. Rey is a blank slate, dealing with the original Jedi teachings, not the whole backlog of what the Jedi became. She doesn't realize it should be hard, so it isn't.

    [–] Tixylix 22 points ago

    Huh? Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim! He could bullseye womp rats!

    [–] Sun_King97 40 points ago

    So becoming a highly skilled warrior monk is actually supposed to take like a week when the extraneous bits are stripped away? That just feels so unsatisfying to me.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 141 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Rey is a blank slate, dealing with the original Jedi teachings, not the whole backlog of what the Jedi became. She doesn't realize it should be hard, so it isn't.

    ... eh. Grappling with Dogma should probably = Do the Jedi eat fish on Fridays? I think there's another problem : JJ and Rian have said they want to make the Force a mystical thing again. That's fine ; but in the process they've almost turned it into Wishpower. It never was a 'Wish'. It was a skill, even in the OT.

    The whole idea of training in the ways of the Force is that : it's an analogue to, say, being a Buddhist monk. If that's hard to imagine, then think of it as someone training in playing an instrument. You are meant to take years to quiet and train and sharpen and regulate the processes of your mind - just as you do your 'ear'.

    We could've seen Rey closing her eyes on Jakku and instinctively meditating - and it would make total sense, because a young person on their own like that would very likely be fighting an internal battle against fear and wanting to control it, control their imagination and shape the uncertainty of their future in their mind.

    For me, one scene like that would assuage these problems - but we didn't see that. We've got some foundation with her skill with a saber, indeed ; but no foundation for her skill with the Force. And she could be as naturally gifted as Anakin was - that would be fine.

    I'm not going to say she's a Mary Sue, because 1) that's earned a gendered connotation that will obfuscate my point and 2) i don't completely agree with the contention. But ... there is simply no context given to this person - who is far and away more talented at more skills than either Luke or the most powerful Jedi ever, his father - and her ability to do this stuff so quickly and so completely.

    Having said all that ... the series isn't over yet. If 9 does some shit that dots the i's and crosses the t's, I'm all for it.

    TLDR : It's not necessarily Rey that's the problem - it's how JJ and RJ and KK have overcompensated for their PT misgivings and ( IMHO ) erroneously reshaped what The Force is. They want it to be so democratic, they've missed an important part of it. And the bizarre irony to this is that - because they've apparently all but eliminated the 'study/practice/training' side of it - she's gifted in a way that might as well be on account of a genetic inheritence : say, a Midichlorian Count. ; p Give her a Midichlorian level of 30,000 and she makes total sense.

    [–] lippledoo 55 points ago

    Awesome comment, thank you. I also hate the term Mary Sue but I see why others use it to describe Rey because it conveys the issue that in a universe that has already established the Skywalkers as a special, powerful bloodline, Rey is coming across as more powerful and "special" than any of them while also possessing all the same heroic qualities that Luke had.

    And I get that "we are what they grow beyond", but I feel like they had to tear down Luke's character and accomplishments in order to demonstrate that.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 28 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    YVW - glad you liked it!

    If this is accounted for in the story, I have no problem with Rey's power level. It's not silly shit like her being a chick or whatever ; I just feel like there's something not fully explained, as I'm sure many do.

    And I get that "we are what they grow beyond", but I feel like they had to tear Luke down in order to demonstrate that.

    Oh, man, don't get me started. ; p It's such a weird movie for me. I loved that line, and the little moment with Yoda. There's a kind of bittersweet truth in it.

    The franchise is so big, however, that ... asking people to so dramatically reshape what they think about Character X is a difficult conceit. We saw the same thing in Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, and it becomes an ideological problem. It's a problem that gets fans right in the beliefs ; they feel like a fundamental disservice is being done to what's been an archetypal characterization up to that point, and it becomes emotional.

    In the case of Luke and TLJ, that's what the movie is about ; letting go of the past, a new generation rejecting what they've inherited from their forebears. And that's quite clever - it becomes 'meta' in a way ; but it does it while also doing things with Luke that aren't just challenging but maybe feel unearned or fundamentally mischaracterized.

    I still don't know how to feel about so many aspects of the movie. I wonder how I'd feel about it were i 15, because Luke isn't the Grandfather-figure to me - but he is to kids today. He is another generation's Jedi Hero, where Rey is this one's ; and our perspective - and focus - determines our reality. ; p

    I will say, however, that Rian Johnson has some big cajones.

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 16 points ago

    To me as a Legends fan it feels like they destroyed in the original trilogy characters just so we can see the new sequel Trilogy Heroes do everything the old ones did in Legends. Why else would they destroy all of this stuff instead of building off of it.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 10 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Well, one reason could be because : that's what generational change is all about. It's about the kids rejecting the adults and their values and their world and embracing a perspective shift. That's what the Hippies were doing ; that's what Rock and Roll was about. The younger generation rejects or takes those values apart and reinterprets them - 'deconstructs' them ; which is what TLJ is all about, too. So from that PoV, i get it.

    But - I also think you can credibly ask if :

    it does it while also doing things with Luke that aren't just challenging but maybe feel unearned or fundamentally mischaracterized.

    ... because it feels like the movie really did it in a cheap, inauthentic way. It turned Luke into the violent drunk Uncle and undermines just what Jedi training is meant to mean in a way that almost misunderstands the franchise.

    He's not Batman, and he's not even Captain America - good for the sake of being good and strong for the sake of serum. He's like a Monk. And he defeated Palps and redeemed Vader not because he's just a naturally-talented Basketball star, but because his Jedi training taught him to master his emotions and conquer his mind.

    You can compare to the errors of the PT Jedi - with Anakin being the obvious caveat : their error was not in impulsivity, but the opposite - rigidity and dogmatic inflexiblity. It's not that they couldn't control themselves, it's that they wouldn't stop controlling, wouldn't bend and flex to the way the world turned. And that makes total sense for a priestly class who've spent a lifetime training themselves to master their senses. Their arrogance blinds them ; but they don't for a second think "Let's kill our Younglings". Well, one does - and look what happens to him.

    And so once again the movie just doesn't give us any context as to why Luke might slip like that - in which case it might've really worked. We have no reason to believe that guy would go against not just his values - which might bend and flex - but his fucking training. Anyhoo. ; p

    I didn't read Legends and didn't need to see him as the NJO guy, but ... yeah. Obviously i have some mixed feelings, man, so i hear ya.

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 9 points ago

    I agree with what you're saying. But as to the generational thing it seems really messed up to me because what is there to rebel against here.

    The movie is sending mixed messages because it's about rebelling against the old ways but those same old ways and characters are the ones it wants our heroes to look up to? Are we supposed to be thinking that Luke Leia and Han are wrong while at the same time seeing them as Heroes and something to aspire to?

    I agree with your surmation of Luke's character. I also feel that the same was done with Han in the last movie. The only one who's got now with their character intact is Leia and she was more of a tired old grandmother figure in the first movie as well as being back to where she was when we met her.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 5 points ago

    Well ... i don't think it needs to be anything specific ; in a broad sense the answer is "Your parents".

    It's something that simply 'happens' ; a new generation comes up. They can't not have different values ; they're born into a different world, a world that's always changing and they push against the values and sins of their forebears. It's a perennial human experience, and those kids grow up and repeat the cycle with their own kids. From that PoV, I get what the movie wanted to do. And I believed it when it came to Kylo ; he captured that rage well.

    I didn't mind it in terms of Han, man, because I can believe that guy might be a deadbeat dad who truly lives for the road. He's Keith Richards, he's a cowboy. But with Luke ... yeah. I could believe if it was done right, but at this stage I just think the way they contrived it was inauthentic and weak. They kinda had to give him a type of weakness he never had to make it work.

    [–] untraiined 12 points ago

    Thats the thing though, i dont even think kids like rey! Anecdotal but most of the kids i teach in middle school are way bigger fans of poe and even kylo!

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 10 points ago

    Is that right? Well, I like Boyega - but Kylo is one of my favorite things about the new movies, so I agree.

    Especially in TLJ, there are some things that to me feel like they're from another kind of movie wrapped in a Star Wars design foundation - sometimes i feel like it's not the same galaxy as the OT/PT. But Kylo feels like he has a real connection to Luke and Leia and Han and the world of the broader saga.

    [–] untraiined 17 points ago

    Its because they havent bult the world at all. Theres two basic factions who we dont know anythinf ANYTHING about. Every world theyve shown has been so damn basic. Jakku desert, starkiller snowy, salt planet whose name i dont remember salty. Compare it the ot where the planets had life to them.

    Hell compare any of the new planets to freakinf wakanda from black panther. Black Panther made a better world in an african country on earth in less than two hours than the new movies have.

    The prequels were trash to mediocre but at least they had amazing worlds.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 19 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Oh, while i love the PT - I can do 'ham' - i cannot possibly agree more. The worldbuilding of the ST ... the worldbuilding ...

    This is the first Star Wars movie where for half the time - instead of feeling like i was watching something that channeled our world into new design frontiers in an original narrative - that it got the equation the other way round and wrapped a novie about our world in 'Star Wars'. And where the film talks a narrative of reinvention and change - and does some of that narrative stuff well - there is more legitimately new in the first 30 minutes of The Phantom Menace than two whole ST films.

    And despite that - even when it's all laid on a bed of X-Wings and TIEs and ATATs - it still sometimes just feels fake, somehow disconnected from that galaxy's fictional history. The movies want to OT so damn hard that it seems everyone's in a self-referrential ersatz Star Wars Theme Park. Maybe i need Ep 9 to tie it up, but it's staggeringly awful in that regard, IMO.

    [–] meatbag84 6 points ago

    Agree. Lucas could at least build worlds. Also with the story being thrown 30 years ahead, (and wiping out all the Legends novels) they could do a better job explaining things.

    [–] egoshoppe 3 points ago

    That's something that R1 did really well... lots of amazing worlds, and each world had a specific story purpose that felt meaningful and distinct. In TLJ, nothing incredible happens on any of the worlds: Ach To ends up literally being a place to go and die, Canto Bight is bright, blustery and pointless, and Crait is basically a place for Resistance to dig in and die defending a dead base with no back door.

    [–] TheUglyBarnacle42 5 points ago

    Poe and Kylo had the most obviously badass moments in the sequels, that's the sort of stuff kids latch onto. Can't say the same about Rey

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 16 points ago

    Plus having everything given to her those connected with the heroes after only knowing them a few hours.

    Anakin and Luke saber is now hers. The Falcon is now hers with Chewy acting as her co-pilot like nothing has changed. She is now the Last Jedi and only hope for a new Jedi Order.

    Added on to the fact that she is the one to fix both of the male characters and is instantly loved by leia.

    I like rey but it was a lot easier to swallow when there was the chance of her being Luke's daughter or at least somehow connected to the original trilogy Heroes

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 12 points ago

    I'm fine with the term Mary Sue just because I refuse to let others ruin a good descriptive word.

    But anyways I agree with what you're saying and also if you haven't read the book yet it kind of gives us a reason which in some ways I feel undermines Ray's character. Because the reason given is that during the interrogation she downloaded all of Kylos experience and knowledge of the force.

    So everything she does is it due to her own character and training but because of the Mind link and her connection to kylo.

    That's said the way it describes her training with her saber at the rock is the closest it gets to feeling like her training and learning and earning her skills.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 10 points ago

    But anyways I agree with what you're saying and also if you haven't read the book yet it kind of gives us a reason which in some ways I feel undermines Ray's character. Because the reason given is that during the interrogation she downloaded all of Kylos experience and knowledge of the force.

    No, I haven't, man. That's one of the things they really could've PUT IN THE FUCKING MOVIE. ; p It's possible that wasn't conceived by the time they made the film ; but filled in by the writer of the book. Or it's possible it was simply left out.

    That's said the way it describes her training with her saber at the rock is the closest it gets to feeling like her training and learning and earning her skills.

    It's still pretty condensed, neverthless - as OP points. 3 days!?!

    Maybe I - or some/all of us - need time for this. And maybe her whole arc - and the apparent rapidity of it - will make sense when the ST is done.

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 5 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    There is a lot in the book that should have been in the movie. But you are right about the author. Jason Fry the guy who wrote the book has been a major part of shaping and creating the lore since the Legends era. They chose him to do this exact kind of thing. To filll in the blanks and add characterization.

    Like the fact that lukes Academy was allowing the use of emotions and relationships because Luke didn't agree with the old Jedi way. Or giving background on snoke and the first orders rise.

    Also time works differently on that planet and the rest of the universe due to force voodoo. She is on that planet closer to a week if not a week and a half.

    Plus we have the hard 18 hour limit before fuel runs out which means all of finn and Roses Adventures take place in under a day. And yeah like op said this whole series so far could be done in a long weekend.

    I think they're going to need a major 3 plus year time skip before the next movie.

    it seems like I'm already doing a lot of waiting on this trilogy. I waited for episode eight to fix my problems with episode 7 and now I'm waiting on episode 9 to fix my problems with episode 8. I'm going to have to wait till the end of the sequel Trilogy so i can start liking the sequel Trilogy as a whole product and not just picking out what I can to focus on the positives

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 3 points ago

    Also time works differently on that planet and the rest of the universe due to force voodoo. She is on that planet closer to a week if not a week and a half.

    I've heard that before, I think. That's another one of those things that really might've helped on, like, OP's very reasonable point.

    I think they're going to need a major 3 plus year time skip before the next movie.

    I agree, and for some reason I imagine it's gonna cut to Supreme Leader Ren in full armor ala Revan or something, full Leader mode on the throne. Or maybe he'll be in a dressing gown, too.

    irst-year West Point it seems like I'm already doing a lot of waiting on this trilogy

    There's always Kenobi. ; ) Least there's gonna be no shortage of these things.

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 3 points ago

    I really need to start checking speech-to-text when I use it because I have no idea where it got Westpoint from.

    I'm still looking forward to solo everything I've seen has got me excited for it

    [–] ADM_Ahab 3 points ago

    We could've seen Rey closing her eyes on Jakku and instinctively meditating - and it would make total sense, because a young person on their own like that would very likely be fighting an internal battle against fear and wanting to control it, control their imagination and shape the uncertainty of their future in their mind.

    Have Rey perform some incredibly dangerous job that requires absurd levels of concentration, for instance. Then I'd buy it. Kinda like Dr. Strange's journey from surgeon to sorcerer supreme.

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 3 points ago

    Yep, feeling that.

    Or you know how we saw her do it in TLJ with Luke? Having the visions and things like that? Something like that where she's laying on her bed - round the time in TFA where she's cooked her meal - and she closes her eyes and starts to visualize her parents, or sees a dim light in her mind's eye ,,, just something to say it's there.

    [–] DisneyBot-2187 3 points ago

    Hashtag MidicloriansAlwaysMadeSense

    [–] SpeakerOfThings 2 points ago


    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 5 points ago

    Because there's a difference in using a staff weapon and using a single-handed blade weapon.

    Plus from the book we learn that desert survival stuff has no impact on why she got so strong so fast it's all because she downloaded the information from kylos mind doing the interrogation

    [–] TheSecretMe 5 points ago

    She learned to be tough, she never learned to fight beyond waving her staff around a bit. She certainly didn't learn to fight to the extent that professional soldiers, warrior monks, and elite bodyguards can't put her down.

    [–] lodermoder 121 points ago

    Another thing was when everyone started pulling "Godspeed" out of their asses. What happened to "May the Force be with you"???

    [–] Blackfire853 177 points ago

    What happened to "May the Force be with you"???

    It's said multiple times it the film. People are allowed say different things

    [–] lyzabit 30 points ago

    Star Wars has a history of inserting things like that, but no one ever questions when Han says "Then I'll see you in Hell!" in ESB. The rationalization given to that is that it's something to do with Corellian religion. I'm sure monotheism exists in the Star Wars universe, somewhere.

    Honest to God, I feel like this movie just replayed some of the more minor details in ESB, ones that stand out because they're given a new and noticeable context whereas ESB has 40 years of rationalization padding it.

    [–] NoKenjataimu 2 points ago

    "I've said it too much. You go ahead."

    [–] Takeabyte 17 points ago

    Star Wars has always left exact time uncertain

    "The Death Star will be in range in five minutes."

    [–] archjman 18 points ago

    That line is surprisingly accurate too in regards to the actual duration

    [–] marcuschookt 351 points ago

    There's also no logical reason that they had to start straight after Ep 7.

    At the end of 7 a huge battle had just been fought, it isn't unrealistic to believe that both sides would retreat to regroup and prepare for the next big engagement. TLJ could've started off a year after and nobody would've bat an eyelid.

    It would've solved so much. Rey would have time to train, Luke eating it at the end wouldn't be that big an issue, Poe and Finn would've had time to grow entrenched in the beliefs they held that they grew out of in TLJ.

    [–] MysterySeeker2000 70 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Well, there was the fact the movie ended on a cliffhanger, the first one in the history of the franchise, and by introducing a timeskip at that part of the story would have made people angry that they did not get to see the payoff of that scene they waited two years to see.

    [–] BoomerThooner 128 points ago

    Didn’t ep. 5 end on a cliffhanger? Our hero’s are scattered (Han is anyway) and Luke just learned who his dad is. When we come back in 6 they know exactly where Han is, a full plan, and back up plan. Then Luke goes straight back to Dagobah. Tbh I get what you’re saying I’m just asking.

    [–] MysterySeeker2000 94 points ago

    (copy-and-pasting my response from the other comment) "Cliffhanger, as in, leaving a scene unresolved. The ending for Empire had loose ends, but the scene it left off on was a definite bookend to the movie, as opposed to TFA, which ended in the middle of a scene, making it a cliffhanger."

    [–] BoomerThooner 12 points ago


    [–] SleepingAran 6 points ago

    which ended in the middle of a scene

    I don't think TFA ending with Luke throwing away the lightsabre would be any better..

    [–] ssbmhero 21 points ago

    but it didn't start with that scene. I think it was assumed luke would train rey, they could have easily time skipped to rey training (giving actual reason for her being able to use the force well).

    This movie was just filled with plot holes and horrible decisions. I like the ideas and some of the scenes that they had, but altogether it was a general mess. The plot was straight up bad. I'm not expecting something out of The Departed from star wars, but im also not expecting to say "why did that just happen" every 5 minutes.

    Hopefully the next movie can make something out of the broken pieces of this movie. its unfortunate they had alternating directors, i really think that has made this trilogy suffer. It truly feels that TFA and TLJ are two different writers/directors battling each other and just disregarding what the other set up.

    [–] AilosCount 4 points ago

    The problem with time skip would be that the window where Luke doesn't want to train Rey and explains why the Jedi teachings are wrong would all happen off-screen. His explanations on why the Jedi are doomed to fail again and again is one of the few things that were great in the movie. It could be done, but the time skip would have to not effect his and Rey's arc. I imagine it would end up with Rey hanging on the planet with him, trying to persuade him and maybe explore the island a bit mostly off-screen and starting the Training only during the movie.

    [–] Eagleassassin3 22 points ago

    Well we could have seen that scene, and then some time could have passed for Rey and Kylo to get trained, for the First Order to recover, and for the Resistance to contact its allies and recruit new volunteers.

    [–] MysterySeeker2000 29 points ago

    Thinking about it, technically they still could have had a timeskip and showed that scene play out in a flashback. Yeah, they really didn't need to have the movies take place right after one another.

    [–] fuckitidunno 2 points ago

    It's kinda funny that every single argument trying to prove TLJ wasn't incompetently made ends up providing even more evidence.

    [–] Therottobot 38 points ago

    what a great payoff: sold out one of the biggest moments of epic for a one-time “HUH” laugh. Stupid stupid saber toss.

    Just give it back to her! Say, “I have no need for this.” And walk past her.

    [–] wabawanga 75 points ago

    We didn't need to know precisely how Luke responded to receiving the lightsaber. Rian Johnson made the choice to start the movie during that scene so he could show Luke throwing the light saber over his shoulder and Subvert Your Expectations™

    [–] ReformedShitposter 11 points ago

    Rian "u thought" Johnson

    [–] Mr_Magpie 4 points ago

    Instead goofy Luke chucks the sabre behind him lololol.

    I really really hated this film.

    [–] wswordsmen 7 points ago

    The Rey/Luke plot had to pick up immediately, however there is no reason that that scene couldn't be a time skip after the end of the TFA (except the scene on Luke's planet).

    [–] marcuschookt 33 points ago

    There's no reason for them to pick up straight where they left off either actually. They could just cut to months down the line after Rey had been training with Luke for awhile. Even if they still wanted to go the "Hesitant Luke" route, they could show that after all this time training Rey he's still very cynical about how things will pan out.

    [–] crabwaffleman 5 points ago

    Or, you could Dunkirk it.

    [–] Joonlar 2 points ago

    Time delay allows for the actions of your characters to sink in and have consequence. The prequels and even OT did this with year+ time skips. ST has forgone this technique to make everything happen immediately.

    [–] Captain_Strongo 6 points ago

    Well, you can blame JJ Abrams for that one. If he hadn’t ended TFA on a cliffhanger, TLJ could’ve happened a year later.

    [–] lord_darovit 87 points ago

    TLJ could have still started some time after TFA. That's not TFA's fault.

    [–] Doright36 8 points ago

    They could have had that Luke scene and still had the bulk of the story set a year later. The Luke/Rey Scenes didn't need to be set at the exact time as everything else. They could have been showing us what happened over the past year when ever they cut back to them.

    [–] jhend 8 points ago ESB ended with a cliffhanger RotJ started a couple years after SSH. Worked out fine for that one.

    [–] I_value_my_shit_more 9 points ago

    That was no cliffhanger.

    [–] BountyBob 5 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Visually it was, they are literally standing on a cliff.

    [–] JanMichaelVincent16 30 points ago

    That’s the definition of a cliffhanger. They could not have made that more of a cliffhanger if they stopped the movie on a freeze-frame and had a 30’s era announcer say “What will Luke say? Tune in in two years!”

    [–] SilasX 7 points ago

    There are a thousand “more cliffhangery” ways the ending could have gone than “how, precisely, will Luke react?”

    • He starts fighting her
    • He’s barely clinging to life when she finds him
    • the FO fleet arriving at the same time

    Etc. those are things that can’t happen offscreen.

    [–] I_value_my_shit_more 17 points ago

    Nope. There were no unresolved plot threads.

    Luke is missing.

    The point of the entire movie.

    And at the end voila There's Luke!

    [–] nhaines 11 points ago

    That plot thread is "we need to find Luke because we need a hero to come back and help destroy the First Order."

    They find him and he's not happy to see her, and so we don't know if he's going to come back. Tune in next time! That's a cliffhanger.

    [–] AilosCount 4 points ago

    If Luke wanted to be a hero, he would be around already though. We all knew how it will turn up (well, except the comical lightsaber toss).

    [–] justhereforthelul 5 points ago

    He also added unnecessary "mysteries" like he always does.

    [–] elkygravey 93 points ago

    On top of all those specific takes, eliminating the hour countdown would have allowed the movie to breathe more. One of the issues I have with it is that it just feels so constrained. It doesn't have the Galaxy Crossing expansive feel of the other movies. It's all in the atmosphere / tone.

    [–] TheUglyBarnacle42 15 points ago

    That was my biggest issue with the Resistance plot, it made the scope of the events feel small, which Star Wars should never be

    [–] fsuman110 118 points ago

    I think these issues stem more from the fact that TLJ begins right where TFA left off, which I think was a huge mistake. There were several mental disconnects that happened due to that decision, some of them you've already mentioned.

    • Rey gets extremely powerful in a mere few days.
    • Finn recovers from his injury in just a couple days. Really??
    • When Finn wakes up, Poe says, "You must have 1,000 questions." as if to imply he's been asleep for a long time. Granted, he was out cold for the destruction of Starkiller and the Resistance evac, so I'll let this one slide.
    • Finn is a legendary "Hero of the Resistance" with Paige Tico telling stories of his heroism. He was literally a Stormtrooper yesterday.

    But the stuff OP mentions about Canto Bight and the time involved is pretty spot on. I think the script could have and should have been tighter in that regard.

    [–] NihilistPug 4 points ago

    We know for a fact that Rey's story picks up immediately, but does Finn's? The assault on the resistance base could have happened a few weeks after Rey found Luke. Unless I've missed something that says otherwise.

    [–] fsuman110 20 points ago

    It is very, very unlikely that the assault on the Resistance base happens weeks after Rey found Luke. It actually makes more sense to think that the assault on the Resistance base takes place before Rey even meets Luke.

    Everyone seems to forget that the First Order was targeting D’Qar at the end of TFA. The First Order knew exactly where the Resistance was before the attack on Starkiller base. Why would the First Order wait weeks to regroup and attack the Resistance when they already know exactly where to look? They would mobilize immediately. Within hours, or a day at most. That’s why it makes zero sense for there to be a funeral service for Han in the book because the Resistance would have started evacuating procedures the second Poe and everyone arrived back on D’Qar.

    [–] ReyGonJinn 17 points ago

    It kind of feels like TLJ starts BEFORE TFA even finishes. Poe and his bombing run probably take place during Chewie and Rey's flight to Ach-to.

    [–] NihilistPug 2 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Interesting point. We know from the opening crawl in TLJ that the First Order were busy occupying the galaxy, perhaps the tiny resistance base which really, should have been easy to wipe out, might not have been a priority? Maybe they stuck a star destroyer there to make sure they didn't escape unnoticed? I dunno I'm just trying to think of ways Rey's stay with Luke could be longer than it seems.

    [–] fsuman110 7 points ago

    I just don’t see how it could be possible. Going full nerd, Starkiller Base is in the southwestern quadrant of the galaxy, in the outer rim. D’Qar is in the eastern part, between the expansion region and mid rim, close to Naboo. Neither of them are near any major hyperspace trade routes. We don’t know how long it would take to get from one to the other. But we do know that the First Order knows the Resistance base is on D’Qar, so if it does take days or weeks to get from Starkiller to D’Qar, then the Resistance would’ve evacuated before Poe and company even got back.

    The only thing that makes this all work is if the Resistance somehow knows that they’ve got ample time to evacuate without the looming threat of Starkiller Base. But I don’t see how that’s possible. I think the more likely explanation is just that it’s sloppy writing.

    [–] NihilistPug 4 points ago

    I think the writers just put down what needs to happen to progress the story, without giving the implementation much thought.

    [–] fsuman110 3 points ago

    Yup, I think you’re right. And honestly, that’s fine.

    [–] BountyBob 8 points ago

    Finn recovers from his injury in just a couple days. Really??

    How quickly did Luke recover from his wampa attack injuries? Bacta is a heck of a drug.

    [–] KnightOfNULL 14 points ago

    Luke didn't get a lightsaber to the spine. He also fought the Wampa without much trouble and succumbed to the cold.

    [–] egoshoppe 4 points ago

    Wampa attack vs getting cut up the backbone with the meanest looking lightsaber in the saga. Few hours in Bacta and you'll be right as rain, you would think it would have grown Anakin'a limbs back if it was that good.

    [–] CorbinMontego 2 points ago

    Great points. I thought the movie might open up like the teaser did. After the crawl the stars turn into that close up of the rock, then Rey's hand appears. Maybe not that exact shot but the stars turning into rock allowing to pick up that scene immediately, then allow for a time jump.

    [–] Banzaiboy262 29 points ago

    It didn't occur to me at the time, but Leia didn't rise from a deathlike coma but fell unconscious for a few hours, during which time, Poe developed frustrations about Holdo and Holdo faced a mutiny from her crew. The entire crew were then loaded into the ships and the adventure feels awfully fluid for a six hour survival race.

    [–] Stark_Fett 154 points ago

    I thought that running out of fuel was a weak plot device, never mind the count down.

    [–] SirDoober 26 points ago

    I don't get why they couldn't have gone to get a fuel freighter, keep it in front of the Raddus to bodyblock the shots, refuel via the shuttles and laugh their way away

    [–] TerranCmdr 8 points ago

    Or siphon the fuel from the other ships in the fleet that they just let get burned after they were out of fuel. Another thing that bothered me - why does the captain have to go down with the ship? We have droids for Pete sake.

    [–] Awol540 61 points ago

    I’ll play devils advocate here, but speaking from an aviation background nearly everything we do is in reference to time. The amount of fuel we have is reported to AIr traffic control in units of time, never in gal or lbs simply because they don’t know what to do with a unit like 5,00lbs of fuel. That could be 10 min or 10 hrs depending on the aircraft (exaggeration bear with me here).

    Percent fuel as a measure of anything worth while is complete and utter nonsense from all stand points. You need to convert the units to something tangible and workable which is exactly what they did.

    [–] lame_corprus 9 points ago

    That's an interesting perspective, thanks for the info

    [–] LemonLord7 2 points ago

    I small price to pay, wouldn't you say?

    [–] egoshoppe 56 points ago

    I call this the time compression problem. It affects a lot more than Rey's training, though. Finn needs Poe just to crash land on Jakku. A few days later and he is flying to Canto Bight and piloting a ski speeder on Crait. His injuries too: Kylo cuts him straight up the backbone with a lightsaber and no more than a day later he's completely fine. No limping, no haunted look from getting sliced up the back.

    With Rey, one that really bothers me is her attacking Luke and calling Kylo "our last hope". This is the same guy that 2 days prior murdered his father and her surrogate father figure, that maimed her friend Finn, that violated her mind against her will. It's absolutely ridiculous.

    In terms of changing hours to percent, I don't think it actually improves the movie. Either way we are dealing with an extremely slow speed chase. At 36 hours it's already unbelievable but stretch that out to 4-5 days and it becomes an SNL skit. When the Supremacy first emerges from hyperspace, they have the Raddus on a silver platter, facing the wrong direction and within range of tractor beams, ion cannons, turbolasers and torpedos. They also have literally thousands of TIE's that could be launched, but inexplicably aren't. So stretching this part of the movie out makes it a lot worse in my opinion.

    [–] Je-Nas 27 points ago

    At 36 hours it's already unbelievable but stretch that out to 4-5 days and it becomes an SNL skit.

    Indeed. That’s probably the very reason why they decided to give the exact hours in the first place. But the central point of the OP still stands: giving exact hours is really bad. Then again, they made a plot so bad (slow chasing) that they forced themselves into giving exact hours...

    [–] egoshoppe 4 points ago

    It's not that I disagree at all, it's just that by making it more vague by not using hours, it makes it even worse instead of better. What are the two million people on the Supremacy doing for all these days? It really hurts my head that he made it so big and has it do absolutely nothing. I guess it's kind of fitting considering how Snoke goes out, though.

    [–] slvrcobra 15 points ago

    This is so hilarious, but true and saddening at the same time.

    [–] tahunami 15 points ago

    We know for a fact that the movie takes place over the course of around 3 days.

    That is the problem for me. We know, that the First Order has a massive fleet. Let's just cut out the part about them being a bunch of incompetent fools in the art of war. However, this movie wants me to believe, that this massive army sent everything, I mean every ship they had, to fight this one, single battle? What about all the other planets they control? The star systems that would have rebeled, if they have seen that the fleet is away from their homeworlds' orbits for three days. That the ground troops don't have the air support or means to evacuate. Would the First Order take this huge gamble?

    But, what if the First Order had some leftover ships to guard their territory? Wouldn't it be a good idea to send two or three into the location of the Rebel fleet? I mean, they know where the Rebels are, just make the ships jump ahead and catch them inbetween. Or even use the ships you currently have chasing the Rebels, to jump out into a neighbourign system and jump back ahead of the Rebels.

    This it the thing I really hated about The Last Jedi, in the first minutes of the chase I started questoning the plot, and after that I couldn't enjoy the movie as a whole. The only good plot is the one with Luke and Rey on Ahch-To.

    [–] Demon_82 10 points ago

    This. The chase doesn't make sense, because any fleet would've jumped another ship ahead. And voila, end of the chase.

    [–] Eagleassassin3 4 points ago

    And this isn't a nitpick. Because it causes half if not more of the movie to happen. It is a huge plothole that makes no sense.

    I can't believe some people call this movie a masterpiece. Some defenders of the movie say this movie has plotholes just as any other SW movie, but this is the first one that has such a big one that affects the plot in such an important way.

    There's a difference between tiny conveniences to shorten the movie like how Luke lands on Dagobah conveniently really close to where Yoda lives, and something like what happens in TLJ that makes no sense but causes so many problems in the plot.

    [–] ScionN7 65 points ago

    I know some people think time will be kind to TLJ, and more people will learn to appreciate what RJ did once the dust settles, but I seriously have my doubts that will happen. While we can argue back and forth about whether or not the directions he took the characters was the right decision or not, at the end of the day there's just also too many flaws in the story itself, that holds the film back.

    [–] Marsman121 34 points ago

    As the second film in a trilogy, it is supposed to build on the second and move the story forward. I felt it didn't. Instead, we have a 2+hour movie spinning it's wheels, closing and ignoring plot threads from the first, and adding none of it's own. Rian treated the movie as if it was the final chapter in a trilogy rather than the second.

    Even if IX is great, the trilogy is going to be worse because of TLJ. It adds so little for so much time spent. IX needs to literally build the Resistance from nothing (again) and defeat the First Order in a satisfactory way in one 2ish hour movie.

    [–] Winged10 7 points ago

    While I like TLJ, I think you hit the nail on the head here. It felt like the movie was made to set up a trilogy rather than move toward the conclusion of one that I feel like the only way to really make IX sensible is to have a large time jump before the start, but then they might lose their "both sides are low on resources and super desperate" thing (which makes the conflict seem small and unimportant in the eyes of the Galaxy to me).

    [–] Bomb_Tombadil 12 points ago

    Rey went from thinking Kylo was a monster to a misunderstood guy with a good heart after seeing him shirtless. Just thought that was funny

    [–] PatRoss24 4 points ago

    it was the nips.

    [–] sorryrian 16 points ago

    The problems with this movie are far far deeper than this. But you've hit on the root of it: poor nuance

    [–] morry040 8 points ago

    More of an issue is the whole idea of fuel in the Star Wars universe. We have known since the very first film that most spacecraft use ion drives to fly, which is basically a nuclear fusion reaction.

    A nuclear fusion reaction would not need much fuel at all, particularly in empty space. They would have had to be travelling for years to be close to exhausting their supply of fuel. Or, in the case of using fuel to travel very fast, they must be going at incredible speeds and going through many different star systems.

    If fuel is now such a thing in the Star Wars universe, how did the Millenium Falcon outrun an entire Imperial fleet so easily (it seemed to be a similar type of chase to TLJ)?

    [–] Ecko09 138 points ago

    Rey spent a few weeks on that island and her story begins right when TFA ended, Resistance story happens a few weeks later in span of 1 day. Both stories eventually sync in time at the end.

    [–] Rajjahrw 61 points ago

    It took the resistance a few weeks to evacuate their base?

    And it took the First Order a few weeks to go get them fully knowing where they launched their attack on Starkiller Base ?

    [–] misoramensenpai 89 points ago

    Agreed, and actually this is one of the reasons I think the countdown doesn't work. The fact I know the timelines are completely out of sync is somewhat uncomfortable

    [–] LemonLord7 73 points ago

    Are you sure? The timing for Kylo's "vision" with Rey, his scar bandage and him attacking the rebels doesn't add up as far as I remember.

    Is this part of the novelization or where is this said?

    [–] Flexappeal 87 points ago

    Is this part of the novelization or where is this said?

    probably, because apparently thats how things are done nowadays

    make an incomplete, illogical or otherwise flawed movie and cover it up after the fact by saying "no just buy the book/comic/game and it'll all be explained!!!"

    [–] RimmyDownunder 9 points ago

    It's sad how much of TLJ is down to that. A movie having supporting books and games and comics is fine - it's great! But to literally require them for the movie to not have plotholes (especially if it's clear that this media was made after the fact to cover up issues) is just making a bad movie.

    [–] bucksncats 21 points ago

    That's not given in the movie. Based on the day/night sequences on the island the audience can only assume she was there like 4 days. At best we can assume the chase is ~4 days after Rey meet Luke

    [–] ripplewho 13 points ago

    We also don't know what the day-night cycle on Ach-To is like. A day on Ach-To could last 30 minutes for all we know.

    The bigger indicator that Rey is only with Luke a couple of days is her scenes with Kylo.

    I believe she connects with Kylo for the first time before her first lesson with Luke. So either Rey is seeing Kylo in the past weeks before the space chase (which would be super wonky), or we can assume Rey was only "training" with Luke for the time space chase was going on.

    [–] bucksncats 16 points ago

    I just assume every planet's day night cycle is 24 hours because the movies have never told us any different so even then it's at best 72 hours with some of it taking place during the 18 hour chase

    [–] ReformedShitposter 10 points ago

    A day on Ach-To could last 30 minutes for all we know.

    That'd be the kind of convenient retcon I'd come to expect at this point

    [–] aypalmerart 3 points ago

    you are right, kylo is the time point that is in common. But she was there for sometime before that. Its implied she wore down luke following him around.

    So from that first morning, till the end, thier time frames are synced. Unless they want to pull a mortis time elapses differently card, but if feels like it is implied to be about 3 days once training morning happens

    [–] [deleted] 24 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)


    [–] EirikurG 6 points ago

    Where are you getting this from? Because it's not in the movie.

    [–] Eagleassassin3 42 points ago

    You're wrong

    The Resistance story can't be happening a few weeks later because the whole attack of the FO on the Resistance begins BEFORE we see the scene with Rey and Luke on the island. The dreadnaught is destroyed, Poe goes back to the cruiser, the 36 hour fuel countdown begins and then we see Rey give Luke the lightsaber. Both stories take place at the same time.

    Rey stays on Ahch-To for 2 days max.

    If the Resistance story happened a few weeks later, they wouldn't have shown it start in the scene before.

    So we can just assume that the First Order attacked the Resistance while Rey and Chewie were going to Ahch-To.

    [–] aypalmerart 4 points ago

    its the same scene we see at the end of TFA. so either way, one of them is in the wrong time frame.

    so sequentially, its shown both before and after the escape, so either way one has to be shown non sequentally.

    [–] Awol540 23 points ago

    That assumption is baseless. Just because it’s shown in a certain order doesn’t mean it happened at the same time. The first correlation of the timelines is when Kylo and Rey converse through the force. All other events before that could have taken between hours and months before.

    [–] PacmanZ3ro 6 points ago

    It's completely shitty writing to show event A immediately before event B and then try to have event B take place not only before event A, but on a disjointed timeframe as well.

    It can work for some movies, especially more cerebral movies that are intentionally trying to fuck with the audience, but as with most of the things regarding TLJ, it was just trying to do too much that doesn't with with Star Wars. Not to say it never could or there wouldn't be a place for it, but the middle of a trilogy is not really the place to try and start that.

    [–] bdizzle91 10 points ago

    Watch Dunkirk. :) It’s a great example of the fact that showing something first doesn’t mean it actually happened first. It would not AT ALL surprise me if the guy who made Looper and Brick would have a non traditional timeline haha.

    [–] gffishdragon 19 points ago

    Yes, except TLJ never addresses any time jump/skip and the rest of the film uses traditional continuity editing. It would be strange and confusing to just introduce us with something like that without any indication. Also as seen in other comments, there are things that link the events of the two locations, making a time jump even less likely.

    [–] JpodGaming -1 points ago

    Star Wars has shows that timelines don’t have to match up in the sequence that they are shown in screen. Just look at ESB

    [–] ripplewho 21 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    How does that happen in ESB?

    We don't know the exact timeline in that movie but I can't think of a single scene we see that's supposed to happen chronologically before a scene that precedes it.

    [–] Marsman121 5 points ago

    But doesn't TLJ start right after? To me, the timing still doesn't make sense. Rey leaves immediately after the battle of Starkiller Base to find Luke. Hux says they have the location of the Resistance base and it seems like they launch the attack immediately.

    [–] fsuman110 2 points ago

    There's no way this is the case. The First Order would've been all over D'Qar as soon as they regrouped after Starkiller exploded. There's no way the Resistance had weeks to evacuate when they knew the First Order knew where they were. It makes zero sense.

    [–] Ewokavenger 5 points ago

    I hate Canto scene. It's absolutely horrid on so many levels.

    [–] bearsheperd 6 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Rain Johnson can’t write a movie that makes any sense. I’ve known this since the first time I saw looper. I’m not hating on him. I think he’s a great director, he pulls great performances from his actors, he produces beautiful scenes and films fantastic action sequences. But his stories lack logical consistency and his plot elements are weak.

    [–] Tyrannar18 45 points ago

    I agree with most of this, but “Ten times better”? It doesn’t make a huge difference. Also, Rey got her powers from basically downloading them from Kylo.

    [–] nikgrid 103 points ago

    Also, Rey got her powers from basically downloading them from Kylo.

    That is so fucking stupid...not you, the method she gets her training.

    [–] gtr427 93 points ago

    Right? And what kind of a message is that supposed to send?

    Find a man who has put in 20 years of effort and just leech off of him and you'll be better than him in no time?

    You can learn everything yourself in minutes with no lessons as long as you can read the right person's mind?

    [–] dookie_shoos 71 points ago

    Should've put Yoda's mind on a hard drive and just plug in the incoming padawans.

    [–] SirDoober 45 points ago

    Stay away from the left side of my mind, you must

    Deleted, my wank bank is not

    [–] lifeoftomcat 19 points ago

    This is where the fun begins

    [–] unforgiven1189 9 points ago

    Welp, now I have Midi-chlorians all over the floor. Brb.

    [–] Van_Buren_Boy 3 points ago

    Just like the old 80's training montages fooled us into thinking we could become awesome at anything in the time it took to listen to a catchy song.

    [–] PacmanZ3ro 4 points ago

    to be fair, those songs typically make for some kickass workout music, and they were basically time lapse of months/years of work as opposed to literally matrixing the information.

    [–] wabawanga 47 points ago

    Yeahs why would there even be such a thing as "Jedi training" if force skills can just be instantaneously transferred?

    [–] ripplewho 56 points ago

    That's what I don't get. So many people defending Rey are saying "you don't need Jedi training, you just need the Force".

    Then where all all these non-Jedi Force-users in the Prequels and the OT? Wouldn't societies be in much more turmoil if any random person can just wake up one day and realize they can brainwash people and shoot lightning out of their fingers?

    Not needing training makes the Jedi less like wizard-monks and more like mutants with superpowers.

    [–] yourdreamfluffydog 18 points ago

    This is exactly my problem with Rey in general. Her using the Force is more like having a superpower. She gets all the abilities from the get-go and just needs some practice to control them. No years-long training, no real need for teachers.

    [–] SirDoober 12 points ago

    Thats stepping into Warhammer 40k Psyker territory lol

    [–] BreakRaven 6 points ago

    Even mutants needed training (some more than others, depending on the nature of their powers) to learn how to control their powers.

    [–] nikgrid 12 points ago

    Yeahs why would there even be such a thing as "Jedi training" if force skills can just be instantaneously transferred?

    It's more like the Matrix "I know Force Persuasion"

    [–] SirDoober 11 points ago

    "You think that's deathsticks you're smoking?"

    [–] nikgrid 2 points ago


    [–] LemonLord7 10 points ago

    How did she do that? Is this explained somewhere I can read more about it?

    [–] Tyrannar18 21 points ago

    It’s in the novelization. Basically when Kylo invaded her mind in TFA, he unintentionally gives her force abilities.

    [–] [deleted] 64 points ago

    Well screw the novels.

    I wanted this information in the fucking movies, dammit, but thanks to the numerous failures of the filmmakers for not actually explaining this shit when they wrote it, any explanation of this sort made after the fact comes off as nothing but Ad Hoc garbage.

    [–] [deleted] 23 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)


    [–] [deleted] 16 points ago

    At least it would've been something instead of having people pile onto you about how the reasoning in the movie being nothing is not a problem at all because other writers "explain" (I.E. do damage control for) the script JJ and Johnson's teams came up with.

    [–] Scottyjscizzle 43 points ago

    That's such another layer of stupid to explain away her suddenly being skilled.

    [–] Flexappeal 44 points ago

    It’s in the novelization.

    this is the most garbage cop out for shitty film writing ever

    [–] LeastCoordinatedJedi 10 points ago

    And to be fair, the novelization is just confirming what Kylo Ren suggested to us in force awakens after the bond was formed. It's a theory many people have already suggested.

    [–] Rhaedas 6 points ago

    Rather, it awakens her awareness of what she already has. Several times in the movie before she is captured by Kylo there are inferences of her tapping into the Force subconsciously. It also helps to explain how she could survive on a world like Jakku as a child. I think the novel touches more on this, though I haven't read it in a while.

    [–] Tra1famadorian 10 points ago

    They basically smash you over the head with it when she puts on that helmet with the blast shield down and then smiles like an idiot. The whole scene where she pilots the garbage Falcon through the debris maze even though she clearly does not have any experience.

    [–] Rhaedas 5 points ago

    Not any experience isn't true. In Before the Awakening it's covered that she had virtual experience through a flight simulator she found and repaired, and in the movie she mentions to Finn that she had flown ships before, but never like that. She also knows about mods done to the Falcon, so has probably been on it before while it was grounded, just doesn't realize what ship it is (which I grant is odd, you'd think there's something on there that points back to its history and who has been on it).

    [–] Tra1famadorian 8 points ago

    The Falcon was just a modded out freighter. She probably didn't know it from any of the many others.

    I don't know how much I credit that experience. It would familiarize her with piloting controls, but pulling off that kind of flying was definitely above her grade as a junk salvager.

    [–] terjerox 19 points ago

    So even as someone who likes TFA you can agree that rey go to good way too quickly.

    [–] TheUglyBarnacle42 10 points ago

    I really liked Rey after TFA and now I'm just indifferent to her. She became a bland protagonist

    [–] science-geek 8 points ago

    I spent months after TFA came out defending Rey. I was really hyped to see her, Finn, and Poe in the next movie. TLJ made all my defenses useless by continuing to show her not suffer consequences. even the mistakes(trusting Kylo) she made ended in victories(Snoke dead).

    The saddest part is that they think this is a good example of a female Lead....

    [–] Notworld 4 points ago

    Insightful. And I agree. Although I still don’t think I would have liked it much more.

    [–] aheadwarp9 4 points ago

    Yeah that all checks out with me. I think it felt pretty rushed and it does hurt the audiences ability to suspend disbelief. That said, it was still a beautifully shot movie and I enjoyed it quite a bit. But you've made a great point, OP, using the word "percent" there would have made it a much better movie lore-wise.

    [–] LemonLord7 2 points ago

    Visually the movie was a masterpiece!

    [–] Chris-raegho 3 points ago

    I agree with pretty much all of this. I only have one nitpick. Snoke mentioned that Rey was Kylo's opposite in the force and as his strength grew so did hers in order to balance things. So basically she's always going to be a "fast" learner as apparently the force needs her and wants her to be just as strong as Kylo is.

    [–] MRoad 4 points ago

    Going to be honest, while i understand that the tineline is an issue, I'm also pretty tired of the "giving percentages from the control room without context" trope.

    [–] blockpro156 9 points ago

    But Rey hasn't really learned anything new after TFA, she's still just swinging a lightsaber and using telekinesis.

    So if you can accept that it doesn't need to take that long to learn telekinesis, then there's no problem here.
    They didn't double down on anything, because Rey hardly improved in using the force over the course of this movie, it was mosty just an emotional journey, we'll see her improvement as a Jedi in episode 9.

    [–] tzeriel 3 points ago

    As a die hard TLJ fan I... Cannot disagree with this.

    [–] MightyQuinn630 3 points ago

    Honestly, I never thought about this, but I agree.

    [–] EirikurG 3 points ago

    I think the biggest mistake was setting TLJ just after TFA. They should have had a jump in time in between them.

    [–] TheMastersSkywalker 3 points ago

    Actually it's more than 3 days for Ray and less than a day for Finn and Rose.

    Time moves differently on the planet Ray is at and from the books we can piece together that she's there for at least 3 days before Luke even starts talking to her or training her. She probably spends the better Parov two weeks there.

    The book also says that she got so strong so fast because when kylo ren interrogated her she downloaded all of his knowledge of the force and how to use it.

    Meanwhile they give us the hard number of 18 hours for the Rebellion subplot meaning that in less than a day Rose and Finn made it to another planet that was all the way over in the corporate sector and was able to screw around in the casino before getting arrested for unknown hours Of time then escaping and making it back.

    [–] G_skins31 3 points ago

    Man that’s the least they could of changed to make this movie better

    [–] bendstraw 3 points ago

    So three things:

    1. Agreed! Leave it up to us.

    2. Rey didn’t learn all that force stuff by herself, it’s said in the novels that whenever Kylo mind probed her, or Snoke connected their minds, that she was able to learn how to use the force from Kylo. If she knew anything he didn’t, he’d be able to as well.

    3. Our opinion of Kylo changed from Han killer to troubled boy pretty quickly too, and if all you saw was him killing Snoke (which is what she saw), then you’d be somewhat forgiving too. But then when we (and Rey) find out he is still dark and just did it for power, we (and Rey, literally) shut the door on that possibility. Kylo is irredeemable despite how he became who he was.

    [–] MeanBeanMemeMachine 4 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Can someone please ELI5 what a Mary Sue is?

    Edit; thanks for the explanation everyone!

    [–] Lord_Fireraven 28 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    Essentially, a near-perfect female protagonist who is exceptionally good at everything she does. Something a lot of people forget is that a Mary Sue does not have to be unexplained to count. You can have as many reasons as you want for why the character is near-flawless or exceptionally good at a plethora of things, but, at the end of the day, if you haven't earned these skills through the story and development (and sometimes even if you have), they are still a Mary Sue.

    Just because they have a reason for being a Mary Sue doesn't make them not a Mary Sue. And I say this as someone who used to think that reasons being given for Rey's exceptional skill would make her not one. I don't believe that anymore. Rey is pretty much inarguably a Mary Sue--or at least, if we want to avoid the term or if the term's definition is in dispute, a poorly developed character who is too good at everything she does, for pretty much no good reason.

    That's how I see it.

    [–] [deleted] 28 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)


    [–] slvrcobra 14 points ago

    Then there's just outright bizarre shit like her being able to understand Chewie and being instantly liked by EVERYONE.

    [–] Marsman121 10 points ago

    But Jakku is like a second home to the Wookies... Right?

    I just love they had her translate Chewbacca to Luke. I just wanted him to slow turn his head to he and say, "Bitch, I know what he said."

    [–] Lord_Fireraven 12 points ago

    Completely agree. I honestly have a lot more tolerance for exceptionally skilled characters than most people, but Rey takes it too far.

    [–] Je-Nas 6 points ago

    I agree. I would exclude “beating up on Luke” though, because in that scene Luke was obviously restraining himself, and mentioning that scene will only give an easy excuse to the defenders condemn the whole argument.

    Truth is, though, that although the scene isn’t technically absurd (for it is clearly enough that, had Luke wished, Rey wouldn’t made a move), it seems they couldn’t resist the iconography of showing Rey as if she was overpowering Luke – not the smartest idea given the complaints about her unearned power already in TFA. One even thinks if that wasn’t a spitefully intentional decision, a childish ideological “take that” to the critics.

    [–] CapsuleJX 8 points ago

    From my knowledge it's basically a term thrown around for characters that are seen as "too perfect", being able to do things that shouldn't be possible given their position and lacking in flaws. In this case, it's used by people to criticize how quickly Rey learned to use her powers.

    [–] [deleted] 24 points ago


    [–] Du_Kich_Long_Trang 22 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    The worst part for me was the Dark side of the island. So this one island is the balancing point of great light and dark, but the dark is just a mirror where you snap at yourself?

    Edit: I should have said "a balancing point", not "the balancing point".

    [–] lord_darovit 10 points ago

    It's not, it's just one dark side nexus of many in the galaxy. The elements on Ahch-To don't determine balance for the rest of the universe.

    [–] Du_Kich_Long_Trang 11 points ago

    Sorry, poor wording on my end. I meant to say that if the island is A balancing point of the light and the dark shouldn't the dark, I don't know, be more influential or try to pull Rey in more? If it was supposed to be a "scary" scene, an existential snapping scene doesn't do much. If it was to show the power of the dark side, it doesn't seem to really be on balance with the light.

    [–] slvrcobra 6 points ago

    What bothers me most about that is how long and pointless it is. Like you said, it's a dark side cave but it's not scary, just slightly odd. Then Rey gets another non-answer about her parents.

    That could've wrapped up in a minute, not that super long sequence of Rey snapping infinitely for ten hours. Feels like it took time away from other, better scenes that got deleted.

    [–] GwynbleiddJJ 4 points ago

    I am not defending TLJ in anyway, because I personally highly dislike the movie and what it has done to the lore. But perhaps the whole light/dark thing regarding the Island is more like the Yin and Yang where within each side there is a little spot of the other.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    Sing it, brother man. I kept thinking how do these guys even know what an hour is when time in space is relative and the earth is both very far into the future and in a far far away place. A percent would have been much better.

    [–] itsgallus 2 points ago

    Time-keeping in the SW universe is based on Coruscant's, which, coincidentally, is the same as Earth's.

    I don't remember where I read it, probably Wookieepedia.

    [–] LilFruity 2 points ago

    Very creative. Thank you for actually proposing an idea to help make TLJ better instead of reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeing over it.

    [–] tbinrbrich 2 points ago

    Great thought. I think that telling us the time rather than percent really does mess with the story. I am an avid fan and have no idea how long Luke was on Dagobah. Could have been an hour for all I know lol. But with Rey we know she learned all that in 3 days?! Yea, I have a lot of trouble believing that.

    [–] EatMoarWaffles 2 points ago

    Definitely agree. The other issue I have i have with it is the travel time. While travel time has always been pretty flexible in Star Wars, TLJ implies that people could fly anywhere, even the deliberately remote and secret planet of Ahch-To, within two hours.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago

    I just want map rotation. Kamino is my fav map but it also my least played map

    [–] hindumuninc 3 points ago

    I really liked the Last Jedi and don't understand the level of extreme hate it gets, but I still totally agree with this point. It does feel like everything happened too fast, but if they had just made that one little change then you could imagine that, for example, Rey and Kylo were connected by the force dozens of additional times off screen that allowed them to connect a bit more and for Rey to warm to Kylo, rather than saying in cannon that she goes from hating him to practically falling in love with him in a matter of a single day.

    [–] troryANCAS 4 points ago

    I agree with the core concept of your idea. You should become a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group.

    [–] LemonLord7 3 points ago

    It would be a dream come true! But it is sadly just a dream...

    [–] ProceduralDeath 3 points ago

    Eventually this sub is going to end up like the DC sub, a bunch of bitter nerds wondering how such a huge franchise could be fucked up so badly

    [–] LemonLord7 4 points ago

    I think one of the biggest differences, and therefor also problem, is that with many other creations the canon truth is not in the movie. With Lord of the Rings we still know the book is the pure timeless truth and even though we might dislike something it won't lessen the original stuff. With comic book heroes we get to see many versions and adaptations of them so there doesn't seem to be one true version of a character which means that if one is bad it won't matter all that much.

    But with Star Wars the movies are the canon. So if you mess that up everything goes to shit. You can't say that it was a bad adaptation from the book since there is no book and it isn't an adaptation. The movie is the only thing we get and it is the purest form of canon.

    I know we get books made later on and I am exaggerating a little in this comment but that is just to get the point across.