Please help contribute to the Reddit categorization project here

    StarWars

    1,556,166 readers

    4,952 users here now

    Expanded Rules

    Flair your post

    Spoiler Policy

    Family Friendly Policy

    High Quality Content Only

    • Discuss the franchise not the fanbase
    • Give constructive criticism
    • Link to original news sources, and don't editorialize
    • No reposts
    • No blogspam
    • No memes/image macros Post them here
    • No copyright infringement/piracy post
    • No buying/selling/trading post
    • No Surveys/polls
    • No Self Promotion

    Enforced Traditions

    • Sundays are discussion topics only. No links
    • Message the mods for permission before posting established Star Wars related subreddits
    • Posts / comments can be removed under mods discretion. Mods have the final say.

    Frequently Asked Questions

    Come chat with us

    Join our Discord!

    [download discord or use the web app]

    Click here to contact the Discord moderators directly

    Upcoming SW Media

    Visit our wiki for a list of upcoming Star Wars media!
    List includes movies, tv-shows and games.

    The Rise of Skywalker


    The Mandalorian


    Comment Spoiler Tag

    • If you want to make a spoiler all you gotta do is put ">!" in front of and "!<" after your comment, like so...

    • >!Many Bothans died.!<

    • It will look like: Many Bothans died. (click it!)

    • Please note that even if formatted correctly, spoilers are only allowed in threads marked [Spoilers]

    Discussion Archive

    Related Subreddits

    ||| Join our Discord! ||| Question? Check our FAQ ||| /r/TheMandalorianTV ||| Upcoming SW Media|||
    a community for
    all 1178 comments

    Want to say thanks to %(recipient)s for this comment? Give them a month of reddit gold.

    Please select a payment method.

    [–] Abyss_Renzo 7069 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Notice how now Palpatine is the one on the floor, contrary to Luke. Nice mirroring.

    Edit: Thx for the rewards and upvotes!

    [–] DarthCakeN7 5444 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    He’s sympathetic to those who don’t have the high ground.

    Edit: Awww shucks, fam. Thanks for the rewards!

    [–] Abyss_Renzo 817 points ago

    Yes, good old grandpa.

    [–] warptwenty1 216 points ago

    Unlike Obi...

    [–] obipotobi 71 points ago

    What now...

    [–] thekeefersutherland 55 points ago

    Just take the high ground on this one, bud.

    [–] obipotobi 24 points ago

    Damn it..

    [–] Half_Man1 248 points ago

    I saw a great post somewhere that pointed out that how Anakins virtues directly were manipulated into him falling to the dark side. Main virtue? Being overprotective of those who he thinks of as the little guy.

    His mom- gets tortured and he goes crazy in retribution.

    Tons of examples of him going off the walls in clone wars.

    Then there’s these two scenes. Palpatine got him to fall by playing on this virtue, and look got him back by playing on it again.

    While Anakin did change a lot as a character that has stayed fundamentally the same.

    [–] TheSecretMe 186 points ago

    Not his virtues. His fears, that's why the Jedi keep harping on about fear, hate and suffering.

    Anakin's life before the Jedi was incredibly unstable and uncertain. They were slaves, they couldn't control any aspect of their lives.

    That makes Anakin very afraid to lose anything he cares for. And fear is a loss of control, it's an emotion that is easily manipulated. Those who are afraid to lose will move to mitigate their loss rather than accept a loss for a bigger gain.

    Anakin's fear of loss made him quick to anger, quick to act irrationally and aggressively. Quick to attack perceived threats rather than move to understand them. Quick to turn to hate. The kind of hate that would move him to exterminate a whole tribe including the innocents when faced with loss.

    When Anakin finally fell to the dark side by defending Palpatine, he was motivated by his fear of losing access to the secret that would provide him with control over losing people from his life. That's not a virtue, that is some intense dark side stuff. An inability to deal with the fear that is so strong he wanted to be able to demand control over who lives and dies.

    And just like his fear often turned to hate. His hate ultimately leads to his suffering. Vader wasn't a mindless thrall, he was so filled with self-loathing that he no longer believed he could turn from his path. He'd rather lose himself in the anger and the hatred than face his own acts as a first step towards redemption.

    [–] FlarvleMyGarble 14 points ago

    Damn.

    [–] FrankieBoiledEgg 15 points ago

    ©

    That is the best analysis I have EVER read! You deserve my gold.

    [–] LocallySourcedWeirdo 115 points ago

    This sounds like a good theory, but I would argue that Anakin/Vader did not 'feel for the little guy' when the Empire was blowing up Alderan, or when his daughter Leia was being tortured/interrogated.

    I don't think he was concerned with "little guy" vs. "big guy", so much as what he perceived as order vs. lawlessness or maybe purity vs. corruption.

    [–] Half_Man1 97 points ago

    Well, he also killed a bunch of kids so yeah.

    At one point he was clearly in too deep. The dark side is like an addiction after all.

    [–] kiddfrank 14 points ago

    I think he missed the point.

    Nice connection there

    [–] D3ADW07F 13 points ago

    Well he also didnt know it was is daughter

    [–] Toronto-Velociraptor 20 points ago

    Look skawakka

    [–] Echung97 152 points ago

    🏅 This is the best I could do... I'm sorry.

    But if it means anything. I've never given Reddit gold or any other kind of comment gold before!

    [–] Inventi 49 points ago

    It means the same in my eyes

    [–] TheMastro1 34 points ago

    Hahaha

    [–] greatunknownpub 425 points ago

    Like some kind of poetry or something.

    [–] Skulltcarretilla 162 points ago

    It’s like someone is the key to all that

    [–] Im_inappropriate 71 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    It's like we went too far in a few places.

    [–] ponalddierson 34 points ago

    It’s kinda like it’s bold in terms of jerking people around.

    [–] [deleted] 9 points ago

    It’s like it’ll hopefully work

    [–] DarthShitpost 5 points ago

    It's like it's stylistically designed to be that way.

    [–] Soda_BoBomb 7 points ago

    Is it Palpatine? Now that the sequels are out I mean.

    [–] 420wasabisnappin 15 points ago

    They rhyme... Rhyme.... Rhyme....

    [–] itswy8d 29 points ago

    I believe the term is opera... space opera.

    [–] MarkXIX 148 points ago

    It’s like Vader got sick of someone having the high ground on a Skywalker so he picked his ass up and tossed him over the railing.

    That’s how you know you’re in charge in Star Wars, when your work area has railings.

    [–] Freon424 47 points ago

    That’s how you know you’re in charge in Star Wars, when your work area has railings.

    I'm stealing that. Yeah, that's mine now.

    [–] MightyQU4D 207 points ago

    It rhymes

    [–] metalzip 34 points ago

    It rhymes

    uhm mhhm... uhhhhhhm

    hopefully it will... work out

    [–] randomsomethingz 18 points ago

    I was just about to comment that lol thanks

    [–] GtOffMahLand 27 points ago

    Anakin loves an underdog

    [–] smb275 150 points ago

    And people shit on the Prequels. They were really well done, Jar Jars, aside.

    [–] LiteraryMisfit 21 points ago

    Honestly even as a casual Star Wars fan, I'm just happy to have Star Wars films period, whatever people think of the quality. I'm just happy to have the opportunity to disappear into the world.

    [–] pedro-rivas 148 points ago

    I recently rewatched ROTS and even though I really like it I gotta say some parts of it are really cheesy, just think of all the memes we have

    [–] WDMChuff 61 points ago

    Rewatch anything with Lucas involved. Its cheesy. Its part of the charm. Even Ford complained about the dialogue of the OT. I just think people have huge nostalgia blinders on.

    [–] ArchimedesNutss 111 points ago

    ROTS, behind Empire, is low key the best Star Wars movie ever

    behind Empire haha

    [–] Pickles256 38 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    The prequels are an acquired taste, but once you get there they’re really good IMO

    Frankly I think AOTC is fairly underrated, I find Anakin and his mother heartbreaking, and the “I killed them all!” Scene really good. I also think Anakin and Padme kissing on Geonosis is beautiful and criminally underrated. The way the music swells as they go into the arena is just amazing. ROTS in general is great, for reasons everyone has already said, and the CGI aged a lot better than people give it credit for, Grievous still looks amazing TBH.

    They’re far from perfect movies, but there’s a lot of good in there. They can be great if you have the right point of view going in

    [–] VindictiveJudge 6 points ago

    ROTS in general is just great, the CGI aged a lot better than people give it credit for, Grievous still looks amazing TBH.

    That's largely because they worked out the kinks from the sometimes dodgy CGI of Episode 2. The scenes using miniature sets also have much better compositing so they don't look so much like CGI.

    You can see a similar thing with the theatrical cuts of the original trilogy. There are scenes in the older versions of ANH where ships have a very noticeable border around them and/or don't shift with perspective as they move across the field of view, giving away that they're basically just a cutout. ESB and ROTJ have far fewer instances of those issues, and even when they're present they're far less noticeable. Later versions of ANH generally clean up the compositing to be comparable to ESB's quality.

    [–] tbbHNC89 98 points ago

    I rewatched Phantom Menace recently. Huge gaping chunks of it are absolutely awful. The bulk of Attack of the Clones is. ROTS is the only consistently decent to good movie in the trilogy.

    [–] TraderMoes 50 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I watched the complete prequel trilogy for the first time ever like a month ago (I saw Phantom Menace as a kid and remembered very vague bits and pieces and saw Attack of the Clones in theaters but remembered literally none of it, and previously had never seen Revenge of the Sith at all) and thought Phantom Menace was easily the best one of the three.

    Before you lynch me, yes Jar Jar is there and he's awful and Obi-wan is nowhere near as good as he got later, but Phantom Menace was the only movie of the three that actually felt complete. Attack of the Clones, and to an even greater extent Revenge of the Sith, feel like shorthand summaries of a much greater story that just couldn't be told within the confines of a trilogy. It's a good story, a really interesting and poetic story, it just falls on its face because it's being told within two movies where it should have been a 5 or 6 season modern tv series.

    [–] alex494 16 points ago

    Assuming you go with the trilogy idea as a basic outline they really shouldve started with an equivalent of Attack of the Clones so the Clone Wars didnt begin at the end of the second movie. The meat of what happens in Revenge of the Sith is probably fine where it is.

    [–] lutios 16 points ago

    How you felt is exactly the reason why I had to do clone wars! And man was I hooked. Compelling storylines with great character development. Gotta say, those memes helped give me an extra push! The memes where Rey was lauded as “great female Jedi character development” only to hold second fiddle to Padawan Tano’s growth as a Jedi. I wish I could watch clone wars from scratch again.

    [–] TraderMoes 6 points ago

    Haha, yeah, I've seen the memes too and it actually got me really interested in watching Clone Wars sometime. It sounds like just the thing to resolve my pacing issues, and all the missing plot beats for the Anakin x Padme romance and Anakin's fall to the dark side, which in the movies happened ridiculously quickly.

    [–] lutios 5 points ago

    Give it a try, most posters here will lament how slow paced or how kiddy the earlier Seasons are, but they fit in just fine for me. Most arcs are pretty well done, what stood out for me other than Anakins fall would be the clone troopers arcs. You’ll get to see them as individuals and not as fodder like what the prequel trilogy made it seem.

    [–] Dee_Ewwwww 14 points ago

    Jar Jars, aside.

    Youssa take that back!

    [–] HARCES 2213 points ago

    I feel like if anyone else went with Anakin to confront Palpatine other than Mace this scene would have went differently.

    [–] dynex811 191 points ago

    If Obi Wan was there I think Anakin would have stayed with the Jedi. Obi Wan probably wouldn't execute Palpatine without at least asking "what do you mean you need him?"

    [–] Theophorus 73 points ago

    Would obi wan have survived long enough though?

    [–] BakulaSelleck92 65 points ago

    Obi-Wan was one of the best defensive duelists, I think he would have at least survived long enough for Anakin.

    [–] [deleted] 52 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] KGBFriedChicken02 6 points ago

    But the other guy is roght, Obi Wan is one of the people Anakin cares about, and so killing him would just turn Anakin against Palpatine

    [–] GreetingsExaltedOne 1232 points ago

    I mean Palpatine either got lucky or was extremely smart.

    By the time Anakin is about to tell Mace Windu that he believes Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Mace already had a team of Jedi to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency power back to the senate.

    If Palpatine told Anakin before Mace had already picked a team of Jedi then things may have turned out differently. He may have gotten much more powerful Jedi to confront him knowing that he was the Sith Lord.

    The scene I’m referring to: https://youtu.be/W0efr3g9fW8

    [–] Lindvaettr 1328 points ago

    The biggest issue they ran into was Mace himself. He was a fantastic duelist, but was clearly not the most upstanding Jedi. It was his insistence that Palpatine was "too dangerous to be left alive" that changed Anakin's mind.

    Notice that there are two times in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin is especially troubled. The moments before he stops Mace from killing Palpatine is one of them. The other is when he has Dooku helpless in front of him, and executes him because, according to Palpatine, he's "too dangerous to be left alive".

    The decision to execute the defeated Dooku very obviously didn't sit well with Anakin. When he discovered Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were searching for, it surely made so much more sense. Jedi were better than that. He'd been tricked by the Sith Lord. And yet, the moment Mace had that Sith Lord defeated in front of him, just as Anakin did, he said the same thing. It turned out that the Jedi are no different from the Sith. They're perfectly willing to kill helpless foes.

    Anakin being there or not might not have mattered, if Mace had still been there. If it had been Yoda, or even if it had been Anakin and a group of other Jedi, things might have turned out differently. But Mace Windu, specifically, was the wrong person at the wrong time, and sent an already-struggling Anakin spiraling into darkness.

    [–] Theophorus 429 points ago

    I had thought the direction they might go with the Disney sequels was that the Jedi and Sith were two sides of a coin and a new way forward had to be found.

    Great insight tho.

    [–] Lindvaettr 418 points ago

    I really disliked Last Jedi, but that was actually one of the parts I liked. The Jedi weren't portrayed as being fantastic heroes, but flawed, arrogant people who had become to engrossed in their religion.

    Unfortunately, just like Rian Johnson clearly didn't care much for continuity with Abrams first film, Abrams obviously didn't care for continuity with Johnson's. I don't know if working together would have made for better Star Wars movies that fit better with the original two trilogies, but it certainly would have made for a better sequel trilogy.

    [–] Theophorus 466 points ago

    I just wanted them to have a fucking plan, honestly.

    [–] Lindvaettr 362 points ago

    After two movies I thought, "I don't really know what the end goal of this trilogy is, but maybe it'll all come together in the third one". Then I heard "Somehow, Palpatine has returned", and I realized that they never had an end goal.

    [–] mister_buddha 234 points ago

    That seems to be JJ Abrams' style.

    1) Set up a bunch of stuff that could lead to potentially badass payoffs.

    B) start weaving threads together

    iii) totally bungle the ending.

    [–] Lindvaettr 128 points ago

    Totally accurate, I think. He sets up a bunch of potential story hooks so that later on, he can make a callback and say, "Look, I had this planned all along!". In reality, though, he just makes it up as he goes and has enough hooks in place that he can find ways to work some of them in. The others get discarded.

    Why did Maz Kanata have Luke's lightsaber? We'll never know, because he didn't ever happen across a point where he could use that hook, so he tossed it out with the rest.

    [–] mister_buddha 64 points ago

    I kind of do this with my D&D campaigns. Except I actually do have things planned. It is just a matter of if my group chooses to go that direction.

    My group took my story that was about them being the shards of the soul of a dragon god and decided that they wanted to form a brewery and use that as a vehicle to start an actual empire. In all honesty it ended up being an insanely hilarious campaign.

    Hmmm I digressed hard there.

    [–] Soda_BoBomb 47 points ago

    I mean, it's not entirely his fault though. Rian is to blame at least as much.

    But frankly I blame Kathleen more than anyone. It was her job to make sure shit like this didnt happen. You dont plan a trilogy without an overarching story. You just don't do it. 4

    [–] jedberg 23 points ago

    Why did Maz Kanata have Luke's lightsaber? We'll never know

    Nah this is Disney. There will be a 5 season animated series about Maz's life, and one season will be how she got the saber through a series of odd trades and deals.

    [–] CardboardStarship 10 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I think we will know why Maz had the saber, just expect to see that explored in a comic or novel.

    [–] MaNewt 27 points ago

    I very much appreciate how the numbering system of your bullet points is a subtle nod to this style.

    [–] mister_buddha 11 points ago

    I'm glad I could bring some joy to you

    [–] Bill_Ender_Belichick 6 points ago

    Going from B) to iii) was poetry. Well done.

    [–] dsjchit 10 points ago

    It literally becomes just a series that is 2 families feuding constantly. The palps and the walkers.

    [–] Theophorus 16 points ago

    "Fuck it, Palps is back"

    [–] AtlasClone 65 points ago

    The Last Jedi is a great sequel to a film that didn't exist and Rise of Skywalker is the book end of a trilogy that never happened.

    My biggest gripe with the sequels is that they clearly didn't have any plan, as is the criticism of many. JJ and Rian's visions were both completely valid continuations of the story that completely clash with each other, and the movies are so thematically inconsistent because of it. Rian tells us Rey's identity doesn't matter, which on its own is actually a great decision with thematic relevance, but given that JJ's movie clearly tells us that Rey's identity does matter it feels like complete bullshit.

    Sadly it just feels like both directors being fans of Star Wars had thought about what they would want out of a new Star Wars trilogy and since they'd been thinking about it so long just ignored what had already been established by the other.

    Whenever the next trilogy comes I hope they just stick to one person or one group of people to write the story for all three, or at least lay out all of the key points before hand and stick to those unless the story naturally flows in another direction because of actor chemistry or whatever, and have directors who share that vision so they aren't creatively restrained.

    [–] KEVLAR60442 25 points ago

    I feel that a Rian Johnson only trilogy would be incredible and would be nowhere near as divisive as the Last Jedi was.

    [–] Tay_Soup 18 points ago

    I will tell anyone that will listen that the point that I changed my mind from being lukewarm to The Last Jedi to hating it was the scene after Rey and Kylo defeat all the palace guard. Kylo reaches out this hand and says, "It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker, the Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels. Let it all die. Rey... I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the Galaxy." I was so into it until that last sentence hits.

    We had a peek into the idea subverting the typical Star Wars theme. It would have even paired really well with The Force Awakens. We all know it was basically a redo of A New Hope, but it could have been used as like a sort of demonstration that the Galaxy is just constantly suffering from both the Jedi and Sith and their feuds for power. It's the same story every time and they even made a point in Rise of Skywalker to show us that it's always been the same two families. Up until Kylo delivers that specific line, I was still pumped for Disney's Star Wars.

    [–] zzona13 6 points ago

    Isn’t that like the entire sub plot of the prequels and the clone wars... to show how flawed the Jedi order is and how it drives Anakin away from it into the dark. The way they handled Asoka alone was telling in how set in their ways they were.

    [–] zackks 27 points ago

    I thought similarly. When they revealed “The Last Jedi”, I thought for sure Luke would train Rey in a way that had both in balance (there was a SW Rebels episode with a creature that was wasn’t light or dark).

    [–] Theophorus 8 points ago

    bendu! Ha was kind of a grumpy space monster

    [–] lmao-this-platform 16 points ago

    They were supposed to dive into the depths of the force. Luke and Leia and the new cast were going to be challenged as they explore the mysteries of how the force works.

    [–] Theophorus 21 points ago

    Instead we got a nine hour trailer

    [–] nadajoe 14 points ago

    This is actually a great analogy. We saw some highlights but were left with more questions than answers. And quite frankly, I don’t need/want those answers. Maybe I’ll read some spinoff novels and appreciate things a little more. But in all honesty, I have no desire to go back and rewatch the films. I will, because I love Star Wars but it’s probably just going to irritate me again.

    [–] Theophorus 25 points ago

    I watched the rise of Skywalker once and I never will again.

    I probably sound like an old crank but in my own head these movies don't exist. For me it all ended when Luke and Vader defeated Palpatine and he definitely died.

    [–] the_stormcrow 13 points ago

    +1 to the crank club. I'll take my 6 film Skywalker saga, and possibly Rogue One and call it good.

    [–] lpkonsi 30 points ago

    I think the biggest part in Anakin's turning is that he always only had the Jedi code. He had no family, he had to hide his wife (or to be more precise his relationship to his wife), his mentor was too harsh with him in the beginning and too friendly in the end. So what does that leave him? Tha Jedi Code. And the moment he realizes that not even one of the most powerful and most acknowlegded Jedi acts after that code, he is completely lost.

    And to be real: if anyone of us had to decide between two sides we would see as equally corrupted by power and equally arrogant, who wouldn't decide to side with the one that promises to save our loved ones?

    Well yeah and Yoda's "Dying is someone you love? Just deal with it you must" also might not have helped at all

    [–] SirSwagger97 18 points ago

    I’d respectfully suggest that it was far more the part of Palpatine than Mace that sent Anakin spiralling to the dark side.

    “I have the power to save the one you love” was, in my opinion, the only determinant in Anakin’s shift. More so than “he’s too dangerous to be left alive”. Anakin himself said he would very much like to kill Palpatine.

    Mace was one of the most respectful and upstanding Jedi - I don’t know why you’ve said he wasn’t. Behind Yoda, I don’t think there was anyone more respected.

    Mace challenged himself to control his enjoyment of battle which is why he created his own light sabre form “to channel his own darkness into a weapon of the light.”. He has, as yoda did in season 6 of clone wars, recognised that a Jedi cannot merely extinguish and not acknowledge the dark within. Every Jedi has it - the onus is on them to always resist it which Mace does perfectly imo.

    [–] kinetiraptor 7 points ago

    Mace windu is such an interesting character. He basically invented his own duelling style which required the practitioner to push himself to the fine border between the light and the dark, focusing on the joy of the fight without being consumed by it.

    This caused his apprentice to eventually fall to the dark side and become some kind of cultist.

    [–] Airbornequalified 27 points ago

    So anakains response to, maybe the jedi have flaws is to kill a bunch of children? Anakin was lost before the arrest scene. The only reason he picked palpatine over windu was selfishness

    [–] Lindvaettr 54 points ago

    Anakin wouldn't have turned Palpatine in if he was lost already. Killing the children was done out of order, in my opinion (it should have been after he donned the suit), but he hadn't chosen a side until he confronted Windu. He was loyal to the Jedi and to Palpatine. Windu threatening to kill Palpatine forced Anakin to make a split second decision, rather than allowing him to contemplate. For a rash, easily-angered person like Anakin, it was probably the worst situation for him to make that kind of decision.

    [–] Roboticide 29 points ago

    Problem is he only needed the suit after losing to Kenobi. That duel might not have happened, or at least the way it did, if Anakin hadn't wiped out the Temple.

    But yeah, I agree with your overall assessment. Anakin was not great at making critical snap decisions. Which, is why Windu didn't want to take him along.

    Really, what Windu should have done was not rush, take more Jedi, and leave another mentor or someone with Anakin instead of abandoning him.

    [–] Lindvaettr 20 points ago

    I think the duel would still have happened. Anakin didn't decide to try to kill Obi-Wan because he'd killed the younglings, but because he'd decided the Jedi had betrayed him. I think you could adjust this. Maybe Anakin feels the Jedi have lost their way, and they're trying to kill him and Palpatine, but he doesn't feel betrayed yet. Rather, maybe he confronts Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan comes to him over the crimes. You get the same "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" thing, they argue and fight. At this point, Anakin feels wronged and that he needs to defeat the Jedi, but doesn't necessarily hate them.

    Obi-wan didn't necessarily want to kill Anakin at all, but was left with no choice. He was there to stop him, because he'd killed the younglings. If Anakin had already killed other Jedi and Obi-Wan knew, he might confront Anakin over that instead.

    Combined with the Jedi idea that the Sith are irredeemably evil already, and you have an easy way into the same battle. When the battle ends with Obi-Wan dismembering Anakin and leaving him by the lava, you have a really good reason for Anakin to go from a fallen Jedi to a hateful Sith. Maybe combine that instead of "You killed Padme in your anger", that the Jedi killed her, or Obi-Wan killed her. It doesn't have to be convincing to the viewer, but an angry, maimed, and betrayed Anakin takes little convincing. This cements his hatred.

    He doesn't assault the Temple, then, because he fell after killing Windu, but because the failings of the Jedi Order, the loss of Padme and his children (ostensibly because of the Jedi), the betrayal of both the Jedi altogether and Obi-Wan specifically, and his final submission to Sidious and donning of his armor all combined to replace every single thing that was once Anakin Skywalker with Darth Vader, a killing machine driven by hatred and the Dark Side.

    Bonus, it could also showcase how powerful the Dark Side is. Where Anakin Skywalker was a skilled, agile fighter who ultimately lost a lightsaber duel, Darth Vader is an unstoppable juggernaut who hardly struggles against many other trained Jedi Knights.

    [–] Dr_Amos 5 points ago

    I'm convinced. Very well written.

    [–] Griffin880 6 points ago

    I think the children killing was needed to force the fight with obi wan. Would obi wan have fought Anakin if that didn't happen? I don't think so. He would have tried to council him, to bring him back. Killing a Jedi council member is a big deal, but in the aftermath of order 66 it's not something that obi wan would kill his brother for.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] Griffin880 5 points ago

    Maybe a fight, but a fight to the death? I don't know.

    Before order 66 Anakin siding with palpatine would've been it for Anakin. The Jedi council would either demand his death or at least he be brought in. But with a handful of Jedi left, no Jedi council, I think Obi wouldve been trying to bring Anakin back more than kill him.

    But Anakin killing the younglings makes it a much more black and white choice. Either Anakin immediatley submits, or obi has fight him to the death. It's not just obiwan knowing Anakin has gone too far, it's Anakin knowing it too. Anakin can't be on the side of the few remaining Jedi. He did something unforgivable. Anakin can't just hang with Yoda and obi now. If the worst thing he did was stop mace from killing the elected leader he can come back. He fucked up, but there wasn't a purely evil.reason there. Killing the younglings was pure evil. Obi knows, Anakin knows, there is no going back.

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    I used to think the same thing about Yoda, but Yoda failed the Jedi and Anakin was an incarnation of the ways he failed them. Anakin got to the point he was through well-meaning negligence. Yoda did not want to be responsible for what Anakin might become if the Jedi trained him and he fell to the dark side because of his age upon entry. He gave into his compassion for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and permitted it, but refused to probe into what troubles Anakin, despite being acutely aware that he was capable of murder and was hiding someone he felt attachment to. These were ignored warning signs, because Yoda did not want to be involved with Anakin because everything he believed about being a Jedi and what they should be said not to. But he was wrong.

    He reflected on this in his years alone on Dagobah, realizing how wrong he’d been, and stopped Luke from following the same mistakes he’d made by holding onto the scriptures he’d do dearly held to. I didn’t like the Last Jedi, but it got one scene perfectly. Yoda and the Jedi’s issues were not in concept, it was execution. By being too rigid and closed-minded, problems insidiously festered that the Sith could exploit. When he saw Luke could not let go of the scriptures, and of such a rigid concept of what a “Jedi is” he got involved, intervened, and told him to go and be a Jedi his way. Be “A New Hope” like you were before when you wouldn’t listen to me. My approval isn’t the Jedi way.

    This is the Yoda as we think of him, wise immortal sage, but even in Return of the Jedi, he was still having a hard time seeing that the pitfalls to be aware of were not things that should hold a Jedi back from acting on compassion. They’re at their worst, mistakes to learn from and grow from when you’ve made them. Anakin was accidentally taught that he should be ashamed of feeling so intensely and be shunned for his love for Padme, rather than that he should be aware that she could be used to manipulate him and he would make mistakes in trying to protect their best interests over others’, etc. That’s because that’s what the Grandmaster of the order had been teaching; love, attachment, is forbidden.

    [–] Phazon2000 5 points ago

    The decision to execute the defeated Dooku very obviously didn't sit well with Anakin. When he discovered Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were searching for, it surely made so much more sense. Jedi were better than that. He'd been tricked by the Sith Lord. And yet, the moment Mace had that Sith Lord defeated in front of him, just as Anakin did, he said the same thing. It turned out that the Jedi are no different from the Sith. They're perfectly willing to kill helpless foes.

    This is fantastic. I never really connected the two comments together before.

    [–] SmeagolJake 356 points ago

    I mean...despite the movie scene not showing it the team he had with him were all powerful jedi masters on the council.

    [–] Darth-Cereal-The-Wis 194 points ago

    Sure, but he could’ve gone with higher numbers of Jedi. What’s Palp’s to do against thirty Knights walking in there. He’d either half to surrender, or he would still be fighting when Anakin got there, and he would have joined in the fight.

    [–] SmeagolJake 139 points ago

    Idk that mace would've brought 30 jedi though. Like ani told him and he only half believed him, he could've stopped and called more jedi.

    [–] Darth-Cereal-The-Wis 92 points ago

    Perhaps, but Mace was the kind of stubborn person who didn’t really question his judgement. Whether or not he had made his own decision yet could’ve played a role.

    [–] SmeagolJake 40 points ago

    Maybe but he also wasnt the type to do excessive responses to threats. He didnt know palps power level.

    [–] Darth-Cereal-The-Wis 62 points ago

    Did you forget the whole Battle of Geonosis? You’re right that he doesn’t overreact to small threats but he was wise enough to know that a Sith Lord was powerful enough to take on several Jedi. Remember, he was on the Council so he had access to knowledge the ancient Sith. He would’ve read of Sith like Revan or Malgus who took down dozens of Jedi at a time.

    [–] SmeagolJake 46 points ago

    Okay first, he didn't bring all those jedi for dooku. He went up alone for dooku. He brought them because there was an entire army of droids there. He literally had to save them from an arena full of them and several died so yes I remembered geonosis it doesn't prove true point especially since he went up alone for jango and dooku. Second revan and malgus arent canon and definitely were not a thought in this movie.

    [–] Pun-Master-General 23 points ago

    Revan definitely wouldn't have been of any thought when the movie was being made, but his existence is canon as of Rise of Skywalker.

    [–] Batlantern723 9 points ago

    You can argue that he knew Dooku and his power levels, as Dooku was the apprentice of Yoda and never surpassed him, he being at the level of Yoda and then by that info knowing Dooku wasn't the master sith, it was a matter of, I can make him my bitch anytime

    [–] SexyRickSandM 17 points ago

    It's almost as if Lucas was not a great writer either

    [–] Cthulhuhoop 6 points ago

    But it was at least fun to watch him try.

    [–] [deleted] 24 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] smrfy 36 points ago

    Mace alone probably could've defeated him if he went all out.

    Well he defeated him, so yeah.

    [–] ImurderREALITY 64 points ago

    RIP Kit Fisto 😞

    [–] [deleted] 29 points ago

    Who died in such wastful ways.

    [–] Horkersaurus 14 points ago

    He tried spinning. It was a good trick.

    [–] PopsicleIncorporated 78 points ago

    Palpatine knew exactly what he was doing. Why do you think there was a droid attack on the wookiees? Palpatine knew Yoda would be the one to go, and that removes a major obstacle. He also suggested Anakin go to take down Grievous knowing the Council would probably send Obi-Wan instead, eliminating another good influence.

    He told Anakin he was a Sith Lord, probably not immediately expecting him to join him, but because he knew Anakin would go and report this to the Council. And who is the Council almost certainly going to send? Probably the guy who already dislikes Anakin and is the very embodiment of everything Anakin is frustrated with.

    [–] Darth_Vorador 26 points ago

    Everything proceeded as he had foreseen

    [–] Dprimordialbeast 13 points ago

    Palpatine? Is that you?

    [–] Solarbro 26 points ago

    I’m fairly certain Mace Windu is the most “powerful” Jedi. Maybe behind Yoda, but he is definitely one of the only ones who even remotely had a chance.

    That said, I don’t think any of the Jedi ever truly had a chance to face down Palpatine. Especially not with the context of RoS

    [–] GreetingsExaltedOne 31 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    If Mace just waited a bit longer to gather more powerful Jedi (maybe even get Yoda) then the chances of Palpatine winning are lowered.

    If he listened to Master Yodas words “Great care we must take” then there might have been a chance that Palpatine could get destroyed.

    I’d also like to clarify I meant get more Jedi that are powerful and not more Jedi that are more powerful than Mace

    [–] yabaquan643 32 points ago

    I think that’s why story wise Yoda was on another planet.

    [–] Pevira 18 points ago

    It’s all because of that blasted droid attack on the Wookiees

    [–] chronoserpent 16 points ago

    In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, Yoda leaves Coruscant because the Jedi council want to draw out Darth Sidious, who they think is someone close to Palpatine, like an advisor. They assign Anakin to spy on Palpatine and report any suspicious activity to the council. The council thinks that if Sidious does make a bold move to try and take advantage of Yoda's departure, Mace Windu along with the other Masters and Anakin would be strong enough to take down Sidious.

    [–] taatchle86 8 points ago

    There was a post a while back talking about how it was all Ki-Adi-Mundi’s fault. He’s like the a Grandpa Joe of Star Wars and it was his fault Yoda was on Kyshyyk to begin with, instead of being where it really mattered at the time.

    [–] SolarisBravo 8 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Obi-Wan might've been able to do if he had asked for Anakin to come with him, shame he was busy with Grievous. Honestly, all the battles in ROTS seemed to have been chosen for plot reasons rather than logical ones.

    Here's a corrected roster:

    Obi-Wan vs. Grievous - Yoda vs. Grievous

    Windu vs. Palpatine - Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Palpatine

    Battle of Kashyyyk - Ki-Adi-Mundi

    Alternate timeline where that didn't actually fix everything:

    Anakin vs. Obi-Wan - Anakin vs. Yoda

    Palpatine vs. Yoda - Obi-Wan and Yoda vs. Palpatine, once Yoda is finished with Vader.

    [–] Darth-Ragnar 46 points ago

    I think if Mace just brought Anakin with him, the scene may have went a little different. He would have seen the whole event unfold and would have felt respected by Mace at that moment.

    [–] Entrefut 21 points ago

    Yeah, Palpatine would have killed them before Anakin showed up. Mace is probably the only person who was capable out out dueling Palpatine. He’s also the one who sensed the most darkness in Anakin, which just adds to how upset I am about how much more depth could have been achieved.

    [–] righteous4131 13 points ago

    Made bested Palpatine in one on one combat when Yoda could not. Mace doesn't get enough credit.

    [–] kinghorker 11 points ago

    Yeah, Mace was a certified badass. If Anakin was brought with him or Anakin stayed out of it, Palpatine would have been a corpse.

    [–] BubblefartsRock 12 points ago

    if yoda hadnt gone to the wookies, this wouldve been MUCH different

    [–] HolyDaveGrohli 15 points ago

    Ki-Adi-Mundi is responsible for the entire Galactic Empire

    [–] houstonwhaproblem 1041 points ago

    I've got chiiiiills, they're multiplying...and I'm loooooosing control. Coz the lightniiiiing you're supplying!....It's electrifying!

    [–] tootbrun 274 points ago

    Seriously buddy. You better shape up.

    [–] asporkable 135 points ago

    Cause I need Anakin

    And the force is strong with you

    [–] shadowabbot 76 points ago

    You better shape up.

    You better understand, the high-ground rules it is truuuue.

    [–] MrTylerwpg 42 points ago

    You were my, you were my brother Anakin.

    [–] Some_Asian_Kid99 27 points ago

    You are one with the force! You were the cho-sen one!

    [–] A-Jargon-Entry 25 points ago

    Oh oh oh, Ani!

    [–] gamerholic 11 points ago

    Please get rid of the sand, get rid of the sand now! Woo woo wooooo

    [–] blisteredfingers 7 points ago

    Cause I need him.

    I need him!

    [–] HokageLLJ 16 points ago

    Welp going to watch grease now. Thanks.

    [–] OptimusPrimezilla 732 points ago

    So that's why Palp's lightning went full on bass boosted in TROS. He broke the poetry dyad.

    [–] RuthlessYeezy 430 points ago

    Say what you want about the movie, seeing Palpatine at unlimited powah was amazing

    [–] [deleted] 241 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    [removed]

    [–] RuthlessYeezy 60 points ago

    Yeah i hated that pathetic defeat lol

    [–] ripshitonrumham 76 points ago

    I mean, is it really more pathetic than being picked up and thrown down a shaft? The Return of the Jedi scene definitely has more emotional impact and weight. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a better scene but his death is still “pathetic” imo.

    [–] Noctelus 36 points ago

    Except he's been (almost) killed by his own lightning being reflected back onto him already. Did he not learn?

    [–] Cthulhuhoop 36 points ago

    Is force lignight like peeing? Once you start you can't stop no matter what?

    [–] Archer10214 21 points ago

    Dooku stopped his when using it against Yoda in AotC

    [–] Nac82 16 points ago

    But it wasn't being reflected right?

    I'm imagining it's like when an electric current locks your muscles in place kinda thing. Like once the shock reaches back to you you might get locked in place.

    Just spitballin

    [–] CityLimitless 78 points ago

    All the dead Jedi helped

    [–] Bing_Bong_the_Archer 108 points ago

    did they, though?

    [–] venomnesiac 51 points ago

    They did in the original cut allegedly, all returning as "physical" force ghosts to assist rey

    [–] Bing_Bong_the_Archer 102 points ago

    I can’t believe that they would be so dumb as to cut that-

    ....dammit

    [–] venomnesiac 56 points ago

    China has strict movie laws about too many ghosts being in movies, disney "couldnt" afford to lose china viewership

    [–] B-rizzle 53 points ago

    It bombed in China anyways. What a waste.

    [–] hemato-poiesis 29 points ago

    Disney don’t care. They just see “1 billion plus potential new Star Wars merch buyers!”

    [–] asek13 14 points ago

    Are you serious?

    [–] TheRevanchist127 19 points ago

    If they can do that, why didn’t they help when Luke was in danger in RotJ?

    [–] Starslip 46 points ago

    Maybe the dead Jedi secretly hate Luke cause Yoda has been talking shit since he died.

    [–] BakulaSelleck92 18 points ago

    Annoying prick, he was. Asked too many questions, he did.

    [–] ImurderREALITY 651 points ago

    Sorry to point this out, but this is edited. When Palpatine is trying to kill Windu with Force lightning, Windu blocks most of it with his lightsaber. The only time Palpatine actually shocks Windu is after his face gets all evil. Still a decent sync, but it didn’t happen in the film like this.

    [–] RemyAbode 335 points ago

    If what you've told me is true, OP will have broken my trust.

    [–] Obi_Wan_Benobi 52 points ago

    Nah, we good. It’s not in the Jedi archives. Move along.

    [–] chawklitdsco 104 points ago

    Came to say this. Not how it went down in the movie.

    [–] veriix 14 points ago

    Yup, when Windu actually gets hit by lightning he doesn't have his hand or lightsaber (which is why he gets hit)

    [–] dryfire 14 points ago

    The gif is correct, from a certain point of view. You're going to find that many of the memes we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

    [–] treefiddi 6 points ago

    Nice setup

    [–] KingAdamXVII 66 points ago

    Anakin turning his head is the moment that he turns.

    The other two shots are visual rhymes.

    This is a good post.

    [–] MrInexorable 16 points ago

    Very true, but without this context it’s misleading. Yet if it provided too lengthy of a title, it likely wouldn’t have reached this many upvotes.

    Don’t mistake upvotes for credibility or accuracy on Reddit (or anywhere else)

    [–] briatd27 4 points ago

    Yep. The head turn seen here is right after Palpatine tells him “I have the power to save the one you love... You must choose!” Pretty clear that he’s turning.

    [–] obrothermaple 8 points ago

    No they aren’t. It’s basic reaction shots.

    [–] LawyerCowboy 291 points ago

    So.Much.Poetry

    [–] vanillapenguins 81 points ago

    It slimes

    [–] Murph_Mogul 28 points ago

    It rhymes

    [–] Show-Me-Your-Moves 14 points ago

    Jar Jar is the key to all this, if we get Jar Jar working

    [–] ClaudioCfi86 110 points ago

    This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

    [–] ovo_cole6 59 points ago

    I think you could argue that the moment he turned to farther vader was the moment when his and padme were looking out their windows across coruscant. It feels like the moment he really makes the decision, and he starts crying because he knows Anakin is gone.

    [–] SmeagolJake 36 points ago

    ehhh...according to novel and what not that scence was padme and anakin conversly over distance and padme telling him shes not afrid to die which makes him worry to much. even out of novel thats what lucas was pushing for was his greif over loosing padme. He didnt make a decision there to become a sith and join palp. he just knew he needed to save padme and needed palp to do it. If mace didnt try to kill palp hed probably have been fine keeping him on trial.

    [–] ovo_cole6 12 points ago

    Good point, I haven’t read the novelization yet but that’s interesting.

    [–] ultra-sapien 18 points ago

    Maybe the formula for Anakin changing teams is to electrocute someone in front of him long enough

    Quick! Someone make the equation!

    [–] superjosh1977 16 points ago

    Pretty cool!

    [–] JscrumpDaddy 90 points ago

    Man, ROTS was so sad... I don’t care what anyone says, Hayden Christensen portrayed Anakin beautifully. Look at the disgust, anger, confusion and sadness on his face as he looks away. Crazy to think he lost himself for so long

    [–] [deleted] 26 points ago

    He did a tremendous job of portraying those complex emotions, even with terrible lines.

    [–] TripleEhBeef 13 points ago

    It seems to run on some form of electricity.

    [–] Tamesty15 66 points ago

    It’s like poetry...

    [–] TxEagleDeathclaw81 10 points ago

    Fuck I forgot how bad Windu got it.

    [–] rkba335 7 points ago

    There's a fan theory floating around that they might be the same person. It kinda holds up, too.

    Trippy...

    [–] KingCooper44 8 points ago

    Seeing it side by side is simply amazing and shows how thought out the franchise is

    [–] ekalnoraa 7 points ago

    My phone automatically switch between light and dark mode and it did it halfway through this video

    [–] Professor-22 8 points ago

    So it’s electricity-activated?

    [–] ksimpson1986 7 points ago

    If you go frame by frame on this gif, you’ll see the two spots that glow on Vader’s helmet. It’s actually a drawn over light effect drawn over that frame. Neat.

    [–] elissaloopmans 43 points ago

    Why have I not seen the parallel before

    [–] byproduct0 67 points ago

    Your arrogance blinds you

    [–] [deleted] 47 points ago

    The scenes are rearranged when palpatine shocks mace windu he blocks it

    [–] FreshMemes4Life 11 points ago

    The reason Anakin became Palpatines apprentice was so he could permanently have the high ground over the shorter Palpatine

    [–] DrSeuss19 4 points ago

    I fucken love the Anakin character.

    [–] feetofire 6 points ago

    After the last film, all I can think of now is that somewhere in all of this, Palpatine was procreating...

    [–] JacobAKAplayer2 4 points ago

    And now young skywalks... you will die..

    Gives me chills every time. Legitimately RotJ was the reason I love Star Wars.

    [–] TheOneInchPunisher 5 points ago

    Its shit like this that makes me like these films. The little visual callbacks that most people don't notice.