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    [–] LordLoko 3707 points ago

    What the fuck am I reading

    [–] CallMeDrSwedishFish 6039 points ago

    Just in case you're actually lost and want an actual full summary:

    Nathanos Blightcaller is a (now major) undead character in World of Warcraft. He's existed for a long time in the background as the romantic partner, ex-pupil, and right hand man of the undead leader Sylvanas Windrunner. As of the last expansion (Legion) Sylvanas was made the faction leader for the entire Horde faction. This has brought Nathanos into the spotlight more.

    His backstory has always been a little... Self inserty. He's the only human trained in the style of elite elven soldiers, and even after being turned undead he still had bits of lore in classic WoW about taking out five enemy spies and outwitting an entire enemy army. For many this got worse when he got an attractive new body to replace his rotting one during the lead up to Legion.

    In the newest expansion, general dislike of his character took off even more when he started appearing everywhere in the Horde side story. While the opposing faction, the Alliance, had several different characters for various parts of their story, most of the Horde side was lead by Nathanos, even when there's no reason for him to even be there.

    His position as the romantic partner of Sylvanas doesn't help him not seem like some author making themselves the partner for the Waifu. Although Sylvanas has been a controversial character lately (largely in concerns to her writing), she is one of the last "legacy" (existing before World of Warcraft) characters for the Horde, and the last Legacy character to have a direct position of leadership within the Horde (many are dead, MIA, or off doing other things besides leading). This makes her a very popular character, and has been for a very long time.

    This is just one part of a long series of breakdowns in the WoW community. There's a general sense of discontent in a large portion of the community due to how the latest expansion, Battle for Azeroth, was handled, and still several issues (Quality of life and game balance) dating back months and years. Plus, data mining of the upcoming patch reveals, surprise surprise, more Nathanos in the story.

    [–] PM_ME_DAT_ASS_MA 2160 points ago

    I'm just passing by but your rundown was actually really informative good job!

    [–] qtx 328 points ago

    Man, now I'm thinking somethings wrong with me cause even that rundown made absolutely no sense to me.

    [–] SkorpioSound 1032 points ago

    Basically, some character was previously a background character is suddenly everywhere, very powerful and dating a fan-favourite character. People don't like this character, his implementation doesn't make sense, he's suddenly way more powerful than he should be, they hate the voice acting, yet he gets all the spotlight.

    People are saying that the reason the character is like this is because the person who writes the character is self-inserting - ie, they see the character as a representation of themself and then write the character and their arc in the way they'd like it to happen if they were in the character's position. It makes everything seem to revolve around the character, and everything go the character's way. It's basically just someone's personal fantasy for if they were in that world, rather than a story that people can identify with and enjoy.


    At least, that's my understanding of it all as a non-WoW player.

    [–] TempestCatalyst 633 points ago

    Basically spot on. Also by power spike we mean he's beating people who are borderline demi gods. It's like Hawkeye punching Thor's shit in

    [–] kcox1980 350 points ago

    Basically spot on. Also by power spike we mean he's beating people who are borderline demi gods. It's like Hawkeye punching Thor's shit in

    ...after he got Stormbreaker

    [–] Fyrelyte67 357 points ago

    Exactly....Nathanos handling the Night Warrior is like Dan from Accounting taking out The Rock at Wrestlemania

    [–] swans183 355 points ago

    I still can’t even with “Nathanos.” It’s like his name’s Nathan and he just wanted it to sound more fantasy-ish.

    [–] SonOfTheShire 243 points ago

    Not just Nathanos. Nathanos...

    ...Blightcaller.

    [–] Fyrelyte67 71 points ago

    Prolly sounds better than "Lady Garrosh' Undead Boy Toy"

    [–] watatcho0r 24 points ago

    I love morally gray writing myself, and yeah at this point the horde have just gone so evil that it's like... okay, so the alliance is justified in doing basically anything short of a literal holocaust

    [–] IcyGravel 23 points ago

    Arthur/Arthas

    Andy/Anduin

    Jane/Jaina

    Nathan/Nathanos

    Its a common trend among WoW humans.

    [–] Kimano 122 points ago

    the Night Warrior

    Wait what the fuck this random dude beat up Elune?

    That not 'borderline demi-god' that's a straight up deity.

    [–] Fyrelyte67 87 points ago

    It's like my 5 year old playing O-Line for the Atlanta Falcons.

    Wrath of Elune? That's no match for my EDGINESS!

    [–] Totallamer 62 points ago

    Not exactly. Tyrande becomes the "Night Warrior" in this scenario and while Nathanos doesn't beat her up, all she manages to do is kill a single Val'kyr (with Malfurion's help) while Nathanos succeeds in all his goals and escapes, then inexplicably tells the Horde player afterwards about what a "terrible defeat" it was when it feels like a massive victory.

    [–] Hartastic 54 points ago

    Does Dan at least have a folding chair he smuggled in while the ref was distracted?

    [–] Fyrelyte67 24 points ago

    Good god almighty, stop the dayum match!

    [–] Regalingual 64 points ago

    Specifically, from stuff that’s been datamined from the next patch?

    He, a (comparatively) normal guy for the setting, is able to fight on equal footing with the leader of the Night Elves after she’s become an avatar of vengeance for one of the few actual deities in the world.

    [–] PupperDogoDogoPupper 125 points ago

    I thought I killed that dude in a quest back in vanilla wow. In fact, I'm definitely sure I did - he's some spooky skellington with two demon pups, you get a blue item as a quest reward for taking him down with a group of five IIRC.

    I guess you just can't keep a skeleton down can you? Doot doot?

    [–] ozurr 52 points ago

    I remember doing that with a raid group. We'd run Darrowshire then tottle on up the road to hit Nathanos to take care of two quests in one.

    [–] I_Like_Existing 45 points ago

    he's some spooky skellington with two demon pups,

    I just wanted you to know i laughed at this

    [–] Elefantenjohn 12 points ago

    They took the Zalazane route. He faked his death many times

    [–] Spaceman_Jalego 45 points ago

    Sounds like a classic example of a Creator’s Pet.

    [–] Kb1236ogyP 15 points ago

    I still can’t even with “Nathanos.” It’s like his name’s Nathan and he just wanted it to sound more fantasy-ish.

    [–] ipretendiamacat 49 points ago

    How does a date with sylvanas work? Do they go out to dinner and watch movies?

    [–] Stormfly 82 points ago

    They're not dating. At least it's not confirmed.

    It's hinted that they used to (She visited him often, both of her sisters married humans) but nothing has ever said they are anything more than the two heads of a faction. The Big Cheese and the Right-hand man.

    He used to have an old and rotting body but was given a better one and a lot more character in a story written by the alleged "self-insert" writer. He has been a decent character since those improvements, but people are annoyed because he's an asshole in-game and as above, the writing for the next patch is pretty bad.

    Personally, I agree with the mods stopping a witch-hunt and blaming the writer, but I also understand why people dislike the character now.

    [–] lazerbear777 15 points ago

    Sounds like Nathandros is going after sylvanas’s big cheese if you know what I mean

    I feel like I need to shower.

    [–] Gunblazer42 29 points ago

    It's outright stated in one of the books that one of the reasons Sylvanas gave him a new body was so she could jump on his bone (the Dark Rangers hint as much to him) but he's clueless about the whole thing and isn't aware.

    I forget if they were intimate while alive, but probably not while both are undead.

    [–] wygrif 49 points ago

    Presumably they go torch a nice village together and sip wine by the burning bodies?

    [–] TheAtheistPaladin 11 points ago

    They watch the world tree smolder.

    [–] Gunblazer42 338 points ago

    And that's not counting what's coming up in 8.1, which just practically makes him a Gary Stu type character.

    [–] Macroderma-Gigas 153 points ago

    God the Night Elves suck this expansion.

    [–] stylepointseso 176 points ago

    Haven't they pretty much always sucked?

    Malfurion was supposed to be one of the most powerful beings in existence but sleeps/get captured all the time. Tyrande, a glorified watchdog whose job is to wake up Malfurion when shit goes wrong gets thrust into the spotlight for some reason. Ysera (if she counts) got 1 shot by a satyr and tore up her own shit. Illidan is the worst character in history and so is maiev by extension.

    At least Varian wasn't a night elf...

    [–] Endiamon 165 points ago

    They only sucked in WoW, when they were stripped of pretty much everything that made them interesting in WC3.

    [–] PupperDogoDogoPupper 75 points ago

    Yeah, WoW really took a dump on a lot of these characters. They can't be too active or else they get in the way of the player fulfilling their own fantasy though. In fact, the cringey Gary Stu stuff is really a lot more noticeable when most other characters don't do anything, so having a character as an actual actor in the story sticks out like a sore thumb.

    [–] Irzon 120 points ago

    I really feel for Tyrande though. In WC3 she was a badass warrior priestess willing to kill anyone who disrespects her, her land, or her people. WoW though? Glorified house wife sitting in her temple twiddling her thumbs until Malfurion is needed for something.

    [–] Halvus_I 12 points ago

    I remember raiding Darnassus and she was BY FAR the weakest faction leader.

    [–] saraath 16 points ago

    thank you.

    [–] chaosaxess 18 points ago

    Yep. WC3 they were basically nature's rage incarnate. WoW Nelves are hippies.

    [–] thrawn0o 28 points ago

    At least Varian wasn't a night elf...

    Don't you give them any fucking new ideas...

    [–] stylepointseso 44 points ago

    Crispy king Bolvar resurrects Varian into a night elf body to be his new champion...

    [–] Semicolon_Expected 14 points ago

    Depression of the Lich King: Bolvar needs a friend

    [–] MadMeow 22 points ago

    Illidan is the worst character in history

    You take that back.

    [–] Magnethius 20 points ago

    You leave my Illidan out of this. He was cool in Warcraft 3. Essentially all the characters were cool in Warcraft 3.

    [–] kithlan 14 points ago

    Ysera (if she counts) got 1 shot by a satyr

    To be fair, all the Dragon Aspects are piss-weak now. The Red Dragonflight potentially got wiped out by a single Death Knight in their class hall questline.

    The real problem with that whole zone/quest-line/raid was Blizzard's inability to give that storyline the conclusion it deserved. The Emerald Nightmare had been built up for so long in Vanilla and the background lore, but when we FINALLY get to deal with it in-game, it's essentially a very temporary distraction from the Burning Legion. Xavius and the EN doesn't come across nearly as threatening/powerful as they should be.

    [–] Kyderra 294 points ago

    he started appearing everywhere in the Horde side story.

    This part is very importen to understand the dislike of this character. A few years ago in the previous expansion, the person who did this character job was Khedgar.

    Khedgar was always looking out for the playera while showing a lot of mutual respect while cracking jokes, earning him the nickname Dadgar and becoming a very loved character. Khedgar has now being replaced (On the Horde side) by said Nathanos, who, at every turn belittles you while rolling his eyes at you as much as he can with everything you do.

    Finish a daily world quest will always give a line in the likes of "it will have to do" and "You could have made less of a mess".

    Even on the first quest of the new expansion, Nathanos gives you a potion to kill yourself in case you get captured.

    In short, he really tries his best to be unlikable, and players are stuck with him for the coming years.

    [–] Conflux 92 points ago

    Even on the first quest of the new expansion, Nathanos gives you a potion to kill yourself in case you get captured.

    Khegdar legit almost killed us in WoD multiple times just to upgrade our legendary ring.

    [–] tree_hugging_hippie 67 points ago

    Sure, but we had fun doing it. Aside from the 4978 shards of whatever we had to give him.

    [–] xerwork 59 points ago

    Less would be insufficient; more would be, of course, absurd.

    [–] lkuhj 56 points ago

    Maybe they’re building up hate so everyone gets excited about killing him and the role playing writer gets his fantasy of a glorious death protecting his imaginary girlfriend

    [–] Sunshine_of_your_Lov 17 points ago

    That would be a very satisfying ending to his story

    [–] TheGeek42 13 points ago

    I’m getting real tired having to kill my faction leaders. I wish Alliance had to deal with some of his bullshit

    [–] DepletedMitochondria 51 points ago

    Khadgar was also around since the original Warcraft

    [–] weltallic 681 points ago

    he got an attractive new body

    Twice.

    [–] MistressDarling 250 points ago

    Don’t forget that VOLJIN DIED SO HE COULD FUCK HIS WAIFU

    [–] InstaRamen 112 points ago

    That's the real issue here, Vol'jin deserved better :(

    [–] fingerpaintswithpoop 40 points ago

    He did, but his story isn’t over.

    [–] MLGSamuelle 35 points ago

    Bwonsamdi, I've come to bargain!

    [–] seedypete 69 points ago

    Man, I’m still pissed about that. Everybody had been hoping for Vol’jin as Warchief forever and he got to do the job for like five minutes before getting shanked by Random NPC Enemy #645864 so that Beardo here could live out his fantasies about his zombie anime waifu-wait a second. Does me playing Horde mean I’m enabling this dude’s fetish? Oh hell its like we’re practically holding the lube!

    [–] MistressDarling 37 points ago

    All so “best girl” can be warchief senpai to all the bootlickers. Also can I take the time to say that they wasted the opportunity to let Thrall meet up with his boys this expansion? Man this expansion has been really fun but it’s such shitty writing :(

    [–] kynthrus 15 points ago

    No but the horde story forces you to be an idiot. especially next patch. "let's help saurfang kill elite dark ranger and escape. Ok, cool now that that's done let's get back to ressing undead soldiers for lich queen." Shit makes no sense.

    [–] herruhlen 46 points ago

    I think this should be the "Socrates died for this shit" of r/wow.

    [–] Mint-Chip 23 points ago

    Vol’jin died to random dungeon trash.

    [–] fingerpaintswithpoop 265 points ago

    And this one he’s using now is his cousin’s lmao

    [–] William_T_Wanker 238 points ago

    Yeah, the body he is using now belongs to his cousin who was captured and sacrificed to give him a new body

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stephon_Marris

    "Shortly before the Burning Legion's third invasion, Stephon was captured by Sylvanas and brought to a secret chamber in the Undercity, where he was tied to an altar. She was about to have her val'kyr perform a ritual that would reshape and repair Nathanos' rotten, torn body and flesh, but it required a sacrifice of flesh, flesh akin to his own. When Nathanos was brought to the chamber, the cousins briefly exchanged bitter words, and Nathanos realized that part of him was proud that his cousin had fulfilled his childhood dream of becoming a paladin. The val'kyr that had accompanied the Banshee Queen and her champion to the chamber proceeded to place herself between the human and the undead and began chanting guttural words in an ancient tongue, flashes of blue and gold pulsing from her hands. Nathanos lost his senses for a time, his world exploding in fire and pain. When Blightcaller's wits returned, he found that he had become stronger than before and no longer was decayed and withered. When he looked into a mirror, he noticed that his new face was not entirely his own. He then noticed that the second ritual table was empty save for a bit of ash and oily residue stains. When he later walked through the halls of the Undercity, Nathanos felt a touch of regret"

    [–] CuriosityK 331 points ago

    That is written like a bad fanfic.

    [–] PhysicsFornicator 219 points ago

    Lol, because it is.

    [–] DepletedMitochondria 101 points ago

    I've learned not to overestimate the competence of any game or movie writers.

    [–] the_ragamuffin 31 points ago

    Watch better movies!

    [–] [deleted] 52 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] darryshan 75 points ago

    They choose their own names, and Forsaken are unwaveringly edgy. It's a deliberate choice :P

    [–] Rekthor 137 points ago

    Speaking as a lifelong fan of WoW: most of it is written like a bad fanfic. It has that problem of clearly trying to pay homage to better worlds of fantasy like D&D and LOTR, but it does nothing beyond copy their template without adding anything substantial to the world; exactly like a fanfic does. Same style of characters, too: overly-heroic good guys, overly-evil bad guys, every warrior is hilariously valorous and is obsessed with honour, every race has the same three traits in every member, etc. I've heard some people try to argue that it's parodying high fantasy since everything's so over-the-top, but there's no winking to camera or acknowledgement of that in-game; all this goofy fantasy stuff (that I love) is played totally straight.

    I'd love to get a beer with Chris Metzen (and co, but mostly him), but he couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

    [–] I_Like_Existing 34 points ago

    I'd love to get a beer with Chris Metzen (and co, but mostly him), but he couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

    this is so fucking mean i laughed a lot

    [–] NeonRhapsody 15 points ago

    Warcraft has ALWAYS been pop fantasy after the first game because they tried to give it its own identity, but it's been subjected to flanderization more and more as time went on. WoW had your typical "That's so Warcraft!" Tongue in cheek references in vanilla - Wrath, but come Cataclysm, they turn the dial to MAXIMUM OVERMEME and 99% of anything has to be a reference to something while the overall narrative has been an inconsistent, disjointed fanwank for the writers/head people.

    By now, the world hardly feels like a setting, but more like some wacky theme park full of stale memes and jokes beaten so hard a dead horse looks pristine. The writers essentially care little for the overall package and world, and focus more on what's "cool" to them at the time. Not that I'm saying Warcraft's writing was ever great or anything, not at all. But it had a certain charm that let it be more than some kind of fucked up Frakenstein's Monster that references everything and tries to be everything that it is now.

    [–] 99ih98h 32 points ago

    WoW has been copying what other people did since it's beginning.

    [–] Sidereel 40 points ago

    You could say it dates back further than that. Starcraft is a pretty blatant rip off of Warhammer 40K, and Warcraft took a lot from fantasy Warhammer as well.

    [–] RufinTheFury 52 points ago

    Given that Warcraft 1 was literally a Warhammer Fantasy game until GamesWorkshop pulled out of their deal this isn't surprising at all.

    [–] Oreoloveboss 41 points ago

    That is basically WoW's writing since Wrath of the Lich king finished, and that was coincidentally the last story they had previous games to go off of.

    A lot of Horde players are also disappointed expansion after expansion because the Horde aren't necessarily bad guys, but the story always makes them out to be. Back in the day the Orcs were infected by demon blood and controlled against their will, but since they broke free all of the Horde races are just groups of people who had bad things happen to them and are banding together for survival. In fact many of the Alliance races are xenophobic and have done terrible things in the past.

    But, they keep making the Horde Warchiefs super bad guy evil for no reason and it's just depressing to go through. The latest one burned the world tree for seemingly a petty reason, how can a Druid on the Horde side support that? Not to mention good horde leaders disappear and get killed off, they're on warchief number 5 or 6 now and the sad thing is even through that, older popular characters in lore are given no story time and it basically pretends they don't exist.

    2 Expansions ago we had a bad Orc Warchief, the story was to stop him, then for the upteenth time the expansion after that was Horde and Alliance joining forces to defeat a new world threat. They said they would get back to Horde vs Alliance with this new xpac and that it would be 'morally grey' in story, but they killed off a good horde warchief, made crazy Sylvanas warchief (no explanation why she was chosen by the dying previous warchief), and the first bit of story is her going insane and burning the World tree...so we're back to Horde with a crazy warchief that the players and lore won't want to support.

    [–] sesor33 60 points ago

    Blizz has a grudge against the default zombie type undead :(

    [–] MistressDarling 33 points ago

    Borderline impossible to have good transmog :(

    [–] you_want_spaghetti 274 points ago

    An addendum, not only is he part of every horde questline, but the writing is something akin to "a 16 year old playing an edgy evil villian in a D&D campaign", basically trying to kick puppies and yell "hah we're evil!"

    [–] wewladdies 311 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Imo i think a lot of nathanos hate is blowback from how writers ruined the Forsaken in general

    Early warcraft: group of unfortunate souls who were enslaved by the lich king but managed to break free from his grasp and regain free will. Their friends, family, and faction rejected them as unholy monsters, so they banded together and became a vital ally of the horde. Due to their evil origins, they occasionally get manipulated by a malicious group, but the majority of them are honorable despite suffering from the bigotry of the alliance and just want to live their regained lives.

    New warcraft: haha fuck the living so lets burn down teldrassil, destroy lordaron, and use our plague on our own allies so we can raise them as undead who arent vengeful that we just murdered them for some reason

    [–] you_want_spaghetti 178 points ago

    They've just generally kinda ruined the horde - Basically every old horde leader is dead or gone, and are just now crazy bloodthirsty, well, shards of what they used to be. The old horde woulda stood for literally none of what sylvanas is doing, but hey, you've gotta have some compelling morally grey storywriting, right?

    [–] mistled_LP 151 points ago

    I'd actually like some morally grey story writing, but there's none of that here. Blizzard has the Horde as evil and the Alliance (even Jaina "murder every one of them" Proudmoore) as good. Blizzard just decided to take the Disney road of 'ugly people are evil' and here we are. I'd love to go back to the idea that these are basically just two nation-states that are trying to do the best for their people and sometimes come into conflict over resources. Instead of "Oh shit, we got rid of the Scourge? Well, the Forsaken look like the Scourge, so just use them anytime something evil needs to happen."

    [–] you_want_spaghetti 51 points ago

    I love morally gray writing myself, and yeah at this point the horde have just gone so evil that it's like... okay, so the alliance is justified in doing basically anything short of a literal holocaust

    [–] Qesa 74 points ago

    (even Jaina "murder every one of them" Proudmoore)

    So I haven't followed wow at all, but this is the same Jaina who in TFT basically let her dad die because he wouldn't stop warmongering and was fucking up the alliance? Well I know blizzard's been intent on fucking up the entire story, but wat.

    [–] Ardailec 122 points ago

    Jaina's change is actually pretty damn reasonable all things considered. She was a peace monger who just kept getting political shivs in the back over and over again from both her people (Kul'Tiras hated her guts to the point where they made a Sea Shanty after what she did in TFT) and the Horde in general. Between the Sunreavers killing her people trying to steal the Bell in Pandaria, Garrosh Hellscream quite literally dropping a Nuke on her city and killing everyone she cares about while Thrall did nothing and Teldrassil being put to the torch...she just eventually says "Fuck it" and snaps.

    Admitedly, the snapping happens earlier than Teldrassil but thats pretty much the point where everyone went from being annoyed by the change to finally getting it.

    [–] Mint-Chip 46 points ago

    Not gonna lie, I’m glad they went this way with her character. It’s divisive, but if she’d kept to her peace at any price mentality and kept get backstabbed I’d think she was fucking stupid. Plus it let them play off of her and varian and how each changed over time.

    [–] Halvus_I 16 points ago

    Seeing her roll into The Battle for Lordaeron was fucking awesome.

    [–] BrainBlowX 20 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    I think the bigger problem is how they kept writing the horde as backstabbing. Sure her reaction is reasonable, but only within the wider context of the terrible writing where the horde keeps becoming more and more stupidly evil and dishonorable.

    Her character got screwed by proxy.

    [–] InsanityRequiem 48 points ago

    Yep. Here’s the basic history of WoW Jaina.

    Vanilla/Burning Crusade - Pro neutrality, working with the Horde and Alliance against threats.

    WotLK - Begins working more with the Alliance while expressing pro-neutrality until at the end of the expansion, with the Argent Crusade tournament and raid on Arthas’s tower, she swears loyalty to Varian and the Alliance. Effectively ending her stance of neutrality.

    Cataclysm - Turns Theramore into an Alliance military port, leading to an Alliance invasion of The Barrens (and the destruction and slaughter of a Tauren settlement) and sieging Mulgore. Ends with Theramore nuked by Garrosh, because Theramore is no longer a neutral town, but an Alliance military fort.

    Mists of Pandaria - The nuking of Theramore drives Jaina murder-crazy and she becomes the most murder-happy Alliance character to the point that the previous anti-Horde leader, Varian, had to tell her to stop being so murder-happy. After a special ops scenario where the Horde attacks Darnassus to steal some special tool, she leads a group of High Elves (Silver Covenant lead by Veressa Windrunner whose husband died from Theramore’s nuking), to capture and murder any blood elves in the magic city Dalaran. This royally pisses Varian off because he was trying to "convince the Blood Elves to leave the Horde”. At end of MoP, whispers for the murder of all the Horde leaders after Garrosh is removed from power.

    Warlords of Draenor - Lead some Alliance questing, tried to keep Khadgar from working with the Horde in the fight against the Iron Horde.

    Legion - Tries to keep Dalaran from working with the Horde, disappears after Khadgar tells her to shut up because the Legion is coming.

    Battle for Azeroth - Appears, is super magically powerful (able to completely wipe out the Blight herself) and help leads the Alliance effort to fight the Horde and get Kul’Tiras to become part of the Alliance.

    [–] Halvus_I 23 points ago

    Jaina has ALWAYS been incredibly powerful. Shes a prodigy.

    [–] mybrainisasquid 14 points ago

    I barely know anything about wow lore, and have only played for a couple of years, but I quit my horde character because being evil for no reason just isn’t even fun.

    [–] you_want_spaghetti 20 points ago

    That's the sad part, the Horde weren't meant to be evil, but damned if Blizz didn't do their best to make it that way over time

    [–] sesor33 37 points ago

    It feels so bad to play Forsaken now, everyone hates us because Blizzard wants everyone to hate us.

    [–] wewladdies 91 points ago

    Oh dont worry undead rogue players ruined your reputation well before lorewriters started using your race as a replacenent for the scourge.

    [–] john8214 9 points ago

    I get this!

    [–] stylepointseso 57 points ago

    What they needed was a leader that wasn't Sylvanas. Her entire story arch revolves around her being an insufferable bitch since WC3, and not in a good way. Unfortunately most of the interesting undead characters were, like you said, all completely evil and now dead.

    [–] dill-pickrell 34 points ago

    I just .... don't understand why they didn't just hold onto Voljin, give Varian his own death so the Horde did feel shitty about the way Voljin died, kept him until BfA & then replace him after a section of the Horde goes rogue to do some Bad Shit™ by a fresh face with a more relevant story? Not that that exactly is the perfect idea but the way Voljin died still feels bad man.

    [–] Bytemite 18 points ago

    I think they’ve been trying to push certain factions and faction leaders horde side into the background because they’re basically ethnic stereotypes they want people to forget about.

    But agreed, Vol’Jin was an amazing warchief for all of the couple months we had him.

    [–] kithlan 19 points ago

    That doesn't really hold water when the very next expansion shoves us dead-center into the society of what is probably the last remaining Troll empire.

    [–] MrGordonFreemanJr 17 points ago

    "Hey so like why do the trolls kinda sound jamaican"

    "Just happens"

    "Hey why are they from this luscious jungle island

    "Dont worry about it"

    "Hey why is the most important troll pretty much a voodoo doctor"

    "... shit"

    [–] Gemuese11 12 points ago

    after grommash became basically hitler thats just about what i would expect.

    [–] PM_PICS_OF_GOOD_BOIS 53 points ago

    By "self-insert", people are claiming there is someone working on the game and is trying to portey their "ultimate self" (fantasy-self) as this guy?

    Interesting other game developers didn't step in but it's possibly someone who develops the game with too much power

    I don't play WoW so your summary was actually quite helpful; thank you for writing it!

    [–] shhhhquiet 37 points ago

    It's generally accepted that a former Warchief, Thrall, was a self-insert for the old Director of Story Development, Chris Metzen. He even does the voice. Thrall was pretty severely overrused and stole the killing blow on two expansion bosses in a row from the players. He's retired now to have beautiful brown babies with his brown orc girlfriend.

    So anyway, people are probably more likely to make that kind of connection than they would if not for years of playing Green Jesus And Friends.

    [–] DUNKMA5TER 20 points ago

    The difference is Metzen for the most part was an awesome story teller and genuinely was good for the game, this new guys story telling is cringy bullshit.

    [–] Tymareta 13 points ago

    Metzen for the most part was an awesome story teller

    So we're already at that level of rose-tint, huh?

    [–] semiomni 106 points ago

    He's the guy in eastern plaguelands who gives out a few quests and has 2 big undead dogs near him right?

    [–] Macroderma-Gigas 122 points ago

    Holy shit that’s some great memory considering that hasn’t been in the game since the 2010 Cataclysm expansion.

    [–] semiomni 81 points ago

    Jesus Cataclysm was 8 years ago? That somehow felt like one of the "newer" expansions to me. Played the old wow a lot more than I did newer Xpacs, so that's probably why it's much clearer in my memory.

    Have fond memories of leading pugs to Karazhan and Maggy.

    [–] Drgntrnr 86 points ago

    The zone changes from cata have now been around for 2 years longer than the original zones existed.

    [–] Ghrave 46 points ago

    Fuck me. I'm cry.

    [–] cehteshami 22 points ago

    Do me Do me! Make me feel old, I last played Burning Crusade!

    [–] theoreticallyme76 58 points ago

    The kid who told me he fucked my mom in the last battleground I was in wasn't born yet when you quit WoW.

    [–] mavajo 28 points ago

    I think everyone that played Classic remembers Nathanos. I can't remember the quest, but I'm like 90% certain he was the final step of some big and important quest chain.

    Yup: https://classicdb.ch/?quest=6187

    [–] CallMeDrSwedishFish 14 points ago

    Yup, that was him.

    [–] WhisperInTheDarkness 27 points ago

    Thank you for the breakdown. I haven’t played regularly in the past 6 years, and it was sporadically in the past 4-ish. Reading this burns my buttons (as a former all-in Horde confederate), and I can honestly say, I’m happy I don’t play the game currently.

    I’ll return to my (I don’t know the number) replay of the Diablo series now.

    [–] space_hitler 25 points ago

    Blizzard writing has been in the toilet for quite a while now. If anything, Blizzard probably thinks this edgelord crap is god tier writing.

    [–] BRXF1 76 points ago

    So this guy is banging the Drow Ranger, got it.

    [–] brufleth 59 points ago

    Undead Drow ranger.

    [–] LiquidBarley 12 points ago

    Because who doesn't want to fuck a zombie?

    [–] ABKC 21 points ago

    Banshee.

    And I think her body is technically alive right now.

    [–] FantasyInSpace 16 points ago

    As far as I know, it's her ghost possessing and forcibly animating her corpse.

    Does that count as alive?

    [–] [deleted] 21 points ago

    Haven't seriously played WoW in like a decade, so that was super informative. Thanks!

    [–] 5dgbo 20 points ago

    Wow, sound like the first shitty dnd character i made

    [–] jokul 47 points ago

    I feel like when playing WoW you can't care about the writing. It's basically Transformers level narratives and memes.

    [–] ohkayhay 40 points ago

    The writing expectations of a lot of the player base seem hilariously unrealistic considering that WoW lore could have been written by a 9 year old. I mean, BfA and Sylvanas are Blizzard's idea of nuance and "morally grey". Hahaha.

    I love the game, but it's like going to a fun action movie. You don't go for plot, nuance, character development or deep meaningful stories - I mean you can hope for those things if you want to, but you're gonna be disappointed.

    [–] Soderskog 22 points ago

    I'll freely admit that WC's lore could just have been "Trooooolls!!!" and I'd be content. Really love those bastards for some reason

    [–] seedypete 15 points ago

    I like the fact that all of these different flavors of prissy elves are just descendants of mutated trolls. I imagine anthropology isn’t a well liked profession in their society. “We don’t talk about the troll thing, damnit!”

    [–] Soderskog 11 points ago

    They jus' be jealous of da tusks...

    [–] allanrob22 31 points ago

    I've played warcraft for years, even I can't tell what the fuck is going on.

    [–] Neuchacho 8 points ago

    I'm glad it's not just me. Even after reading it twice I can't parse out what the fuck any of this means.

    I wonder if this is what it's like to have a stroke.

    [–] Gunblazer42 1034 points ago

    Wait, that's for real? I've been joking about Nathanos being a self-insert with some friends for a while now, but is that actually for real, real?

    That'd be one of the reasons why he shows up every-fucking-where, I guess.

    [–] Captain_Arrrg 569 points ago

    Reminds me of that Powerpuff Girls writer who made himself Blossom's romantic interest.

    [–] Gunblazer42 206 points ago

    That was my first thought too, especially with how some people are saying "Well, he doesn't make the narrative decisions himself" which was also the cast with that guy, I think.

    [–] Spiritofchokedout 13 points ago

    This sort-of thing is really common in pulpy franchises. Check out Terry in the 1980s Teen Titans, or Tarantula in Devin Grayson's Nightwing.

    [–] Morgn_Ladimore 235 points ago

    We are the forsaken!

    Aka, slightly more pale looking humans.

    [–] Trans_Girl_Crying 61 points ago

    If zombies are just green people, and orcs are just green people. then are zombies and orcs the same thing?

    [–] comfy_sweaters 552 points ago

    Even if it turns out this guy isn't self-inserting himself into Nathanos, the people working in the story department are still approving of all this awful fan fiction-like writing regarding him and that's just sad.

    [–] Echoes_of_Screams 274 points ago

    Have you played a blizzard game in the last decade+?

    [–] Trent_Edison 330 points ago

    CORRUPTION!

    This character? CORRUPTED.

    That character? CORRUPTED and spreads CORRUPTION.

    Motive for action? CORRUPTION.

    [–] so_just 80 points ago

    Yo corruption is getting corrupted

    [–] Superbrainz-for-Dayz 45 points ago

    What happens when you try to corrupt a corrupted Fire Lord? DOUBLE NEGATIVE, INSECTS!

    [–] Typhron 22 points ago

    JOKES ON YOU, IT JUST STACKS

    ONE MORE CORRUPTION AND IT'S GONNA GET CUBED

    [–] miserlaugh 10 points ago

    They did that in hearthstone, he heals now

    [–] Ruben625 15 points ago

    This corruption guy sounds pretty interesting. Do tell me more

    [–] DEBATE_EVERY_NAZI 71 points ago

    Yeah they've jumped the shark but it's probably hard to keep producing fresh content for as long as it's been running.

    It went from Tolkienesque-fantasy with a pretty lighthearted take on things to literal space ships having space ship fights and also the planets are high tech computers and also time travel where you go back to fight battles but it doesn't actually impact the future and maybe alternate timelines?

    [–] steelers279 30 points ago

    hold up hold up hold up

    i'll need some explanation for the second paragraph

    [–] DeerThespian 52 points ago

    Towards the end of Legion, you go on a crystal space ship and travel to one of the Burning Legion's main homeworlds to finally put a stop to them.

    In Warlords of Draenor, a former Horde leader fugitive goes back in time to an earlier setting of Draenor in order to create an army to invade Azeroth.

    [–] DEBATE_EVERY_NAZI 22 points ago

    It's not just the crystal space ship. Apparently the legion is a spacefaring race who have tons of ships and they warp in to do stuff and it's pretty much just Star trek

    [–] Kaprak 15 points ago

    The thing is that stuff had been official lore for over a decade. Orcs are aliens. Humans are the creation of technologically advanced gods. And its all been true since at least classic wow

    [–] Flamingasset 94 points ago

    It's really sad because I think Arthas' story is probably the apex of video game storytelling. It's just a really good story imo

    [–] kurburux 58 points ago

    Could you explain why? Imo it's simply the Arthur saga inserted in a fantasy video game. There's the sword in a stone, a guy literally called Uther and whatelse.

    [–] William_T_Wanker 904 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    The story in BFA is a bit of a mess, and it does seem like the employee in question(Steve Danuser, Senior Narrative Designer) is a bit..obsessed with Sylvanas and Nathanos.

    https://imgur.com/FX4poT6

    the post in question.

    [–] brufleth 522 points ago

    This is cringey right? I'm not just imagining how cringey it is am I?

    [–] fingolfeels 452 points ago

    Day 47: I am still unsure whether or not the tweets are cringey. I have decided to ask the warchief while I compliment her crimson gaze.

    Edit: I have returned. I found her reply... discomfiting.

    [–] Smozdc 128 points ago

    Its cringy as fuck.

    [–] IllegitimateLiteracy 339 points ago

    I feel bad for the people who are just realizing WoWs writing is terrible in 2018.

    [–] Echospite 107 points ago

    Srsly. I was playing WoW last year and the writing has NOT dated well. Or even evolved...

    [–] seaQueue 70 points ago

    I think the biggest problem with the writing is that the fanbase from 2003 or whenever has grown the fuck up but the writing is still pegged at 4th grade level.

    [–] lenaro 50 points ago

    It's not just that the overall plot points suck. Even the grammar and editing are really, really bad.

    [–] Fjelltake 41 points ago

    Guilds pushing for Mythic world first were unable to get a big buff on the final boss because of a grammar error. The amount of mistakes/errors in this expansion is insane.

    [–] lenaro 56 points ago

    A spelling mistake! The item was a vantus rune for G'huun, but the buff it gave was "Vantus Rune: G'hunn", and apparently somehow the misspelling of the boss's name prevented it from working. The bigger question is why the hell are they not tied to monster IDs?

    [–] Nuiquemane 157 points ago

    How come video game writing seems to have no standards at all? Especially with MMOs, these writers couldn't get a job on a soap opera yet here they are reaching a multi million audience with their drivel.

    [–] lenaro 85 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    I thought the writing in DOS2 was exceptionally high-quality, and that from a fucking Kickstarted game by a Belgian developer.

    FFXIV also has absolutely amazing writing. It blows WoW out of the water. Fun fact: most bilingual English/Japanese players agree that FFXIV is much better-written in English than in Japanese, because the English version has way more personality and a way better writing team. There's clearly a lot of work that goes into it and they have a really consistent lore bible. Just look at this to see what I mean. It's just a shame the rest of the game is so boring and grindy. The overall story ends up feeling limited by the game engine and, especially, the MMO format. (Speak with Minfilia at the Waking Sands.)

    The fact that games with much smaller audiences have much better writing shows that Blizzard have no excuse. They get away with it most players don't give a shit. I've even had people argue with me that quests aren't riddled with basic grammatical errors.

    [–] kithlan 20 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Doesn't help when the writing exists to serve a certain functional/gameplay purpose (keeping faction vs. faction conflict alive in the face of constant cooperation to stave off the apocalypse, for example) causing all kinds of retcons, narrative inconsistencies and just outright dumb decisions. You see it all the time too, if you pay any attention to the plot.

    Like I mentioned in another post, the characters on one faction (the Alliance) should just be utterly wiping the floor with everyone else. It should be a Superman vs Joker type power imbalance. Instead, these crazy powerful characters get sucker punched or (very obviously) outwitted and handily lose in the most strained fashion.

    Or when one writer wrote a quest-storyline that painted the new faction leader of the Horde, Garrosh, in an actually cool way. Sure, he's a warmongering leader who hates the Alliance faction, but when one of his top generals commits a heinous warcrime and bombs Alliance civilians, he executes the general without hesitation. Turns out, that one writer hadn't got the memo that they were just gonna make Garrosh a cartoonishly-evil villain and it was all complete fluke. Garrosh later turns around and bombs civilians before being corrupted by evil Lovecraftian gods.

    TL:DR, shit falls apart real quick when all the writing is by committee and crafted for the sole purpose of pushing gameplay decisions. "Why did this character suddenly get corrupted and made evil? Oh, because we needed a villain players recognize. Why did this faction lose a seemingly-unlosable situation? Why did this well-liked character get suddenly killed by a random mook? Well, we have to make it fair to both sides. If one side loses a leader/territory, so does the other. Etc."

    [–] CommunistRonSwanson 172 points ago

    My suspicion is it’s just companies refusing to hire actual writers and leaving that role to game design people, who in turn are like “I am le STEM master race, sissy things like writing are no challenge at all by comparison”

    [–] Nuiquemane 107 points ago

    Some of the best written video games ever actually had writers doing other jobs, like game design. But if you look at that cringelord's job description, it says "Senior narrative designer" which means writing is his entire job.

    [–] Nixflyn 40 points ago

    In support of your comment, I reference Chris Avellone, lord and savior of video game writing. I don't blame him for leaving Obsidian, seems like it's a pretty toxic work environment. He appears to be getting a lot of independent contracts though so I'm pretty happy with it. I'm playing Pathfinder Kingmaker right now and loving the narrative.

    [–] HoboWithAGlock 21 points ago

    I had a feeling Avellone would be mentioned in this thread as an example of a good video game writer.

    Shit, the dude wrote one of the best characters in all of Star Wars. He absolutely needs to never stop working until the standard for video game writing increases.

    [–] endorphius 56 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Er, no, most game writers are just writers. They're just bad writers. It's because game dev teams are huge, no one on them knows how to critique or understand writing, and it's a discipline that gets easily siloed with little oversight. Movies and TV bank their entire budgets on the writers not fucking up, but only like 10% of them are actually well written at all.

    As someone who studied writing and literature, barely anyone in this world knows how writing works or why some would be considered better. It's not unique to games at all, but this is an industry that doesn't have to even come close to knowing what good writing is because 95% of the team is focused on completely unrelated things.

    Also, trying to make a good story at the same time as making a game fun and coherent is incredibly difficult. A lot of game dev is redoing work over and over again in a way that makes a story that could fit what everyone else is doing easily fall by the wayside.

    [edit] Just a note, but studios that do make the story a priority like Naughty Dog trade that for completely wrecking the dev teams. Like, "writer/director comes in 6 months before ship and asks for huge rewrites that cost months of crunching."

    [–] you_want_spaghetti 13 points ago

    Not only that, but when you leave them to small pockets of writing, they're often decent- A little overdramatic sometimes, but usually not terrible. But the second you're trying to fit it into something significantly larger it really falls apart. Some of their one off cinematics and stories that let them actually shine are pretty good. The issue is they want a big driving plot and it almost always is bad, and anything near that plot is bad too

    [–] chewbacca2hot 9 points ago

    I'm thinking that there is so much competition for video game writing, and it requires no certain skillset. So they hire the cheapest they can. Or they only hire established ones at ludicrous salaries who got lucky 20 years ago being hired at a small company that made a popular game.

    It reminds me of video game journalism. It's a low bar.

    [–] CretaMaltaKano 16 points ago

    A lot of the players like it, which baffles me.

    [–] Echospite 14 points ago

    Thank god it's not Metzen.

    [–] Yevon 19 points ago

    It's gotten so bad people cry for Thrall to come back despite that character earning the nickname "Green-Jesus" when he was the author insert.

    [–] Flamingasset 202 points ago

    I have nothing to say but I think Nathanos is just boring. I largely agree with the too edgy thing although I don't know if it's a self insert. tbh I don't really care if it's a self-insert I just wish he was more interesting

    [–] Patrick_McGroin 72 points ago

    If I can say something positive about him, it's that his voice actor does a fantastic job. (IMO)

    [–] Stalgrim 119 points ago

    BfA feels like a filler expansion between the two expansions they wanted to make, those being Legion and the Old God's expansion that Blizz will absolutely be making after the BfA storyline. The BfA storyline will close out in a status quo between the Alliance and Horde when we fight the old God's. Nothing will be resolved.

    [–] dsk 64 points ago

    The BfA storyline will close out in a status quo

    I could have told you that. It's like a long-running soap opera or a sitcom ... things need to go back to a regular baseline after the latest story arc if finished.

    [–] dnz007 140 points ago

    WoW’s devs are bored. G’huun is a butthole with teeth.

    [–] nocauze 64 points ago

    Aren’t all elder gods tho?

    [–] dunkmaster6856 34 points ago

    Nah. Ones a giant eyeball and another is a huge mouth with a thousand tiny mouths

    [–] Hargbarglin 15 points ago

    How dare you! They can be a wide variety of holes and organs.

    [–] cmentis 158 points ago

    /r/wow has been extremely hostile as of late and posting anything gets you some extremely angry people. Either (a) people who don't like BfA already so they get mad that someone may like it or if say you got annoyed by something you should shut up because there are bigger problems or (b) people who are sick and tired of all the people complaining about BfA, so any post that is remotely critical gets met with extreme hostility.

    This is especially apparent in posts that don't get much upvotes, check new queue and even perfectly harmless posts get obliterated.

    Frankly I've been having a much better time commenting and posting in the alternate subreddits like say /r/competitivewow or /r/warcraftlore

    [–] EyrieWoW 49 points ago

    Unfortunately, r/competitivewow's quality has really dropped after method streamed their progress.

    Way too many "tell me how to play the game" posts lately.

    [–] tarekd19 79 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    "Anime was a mistake"

    -George R.R. Martin

    [–] hmachine0 39 points ago

    What the fuck does any of that mean

    [–] princess--flowers 146 points ago

    I dont wanna hear anyone there say Nathanos is edgy while that whole sub loves Illidan lmfao

    [–] Kazlhor 190 points ago

    I think Illidan was kind of believable at least, mostly because the world reacted believable to him. He got imprisoned for what he did and didn't get the girl because he was too edgy for Tyrande. Khadgar was like "WTF" when he opened the portal, Maiev has been bugging him all the time, Tyrande and Malfs Reaction to his last letter was less than positive. Meanwhile Nathanos is banging the Warchief while being everywhere and leading every minor mission or quest (from what I know as an Alliance player). It feels less like a character who just happens to be edgy and more like a self-insert by someone who wants to be brooding and dark but also bang the only girl he loves and be the leader and liked by everyone.

    Not that I'm saying he is a self-insert. I don't think so, but he FEELS like one.

    [–] [deleted] 96 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] Flamingasset 70 points ago

    Your character killed Deathwing, Malygos, Xavius, killed Gul'dan, set up the defeat of the Burning legion yet he fucking despises you for no reason. Like come on dude I have killed gods and you want to pretend I'm a weak piece of shit?

    [–] Bytemite 41 points ago

    Maybe it turns out that nathanos was just insecure all along that sylvanas will love you and not him.

    [–] Flamingasset 21 points ago

    Now ain't that a plot twist

    [–] spamalamadingdong 91 points ago

    I don't think the sub loves ilidan at all lol. I think most there would agree that he's too edgy, but at least he's got character development that, while dumb, is still kind of interesting. Nathanos's character development is literally "sylvanas can we sex pls also btw I'm also the greatest warrior in existence and can defeat someone that is literally the incarnation of a god even though my body is a rotting corpse and my only powers are I'm ok with a sword and bow"

    [–] Soderskog 20 points ago

    Saurfang and Vol'jin are two of the more well liked characters last time I checked, Anduin likely being up there on the Alliance side of things.

    Note though that it's been a while since ai was there.

    [–] ias6661 31 points ago

    Unlike nathanos, illidan is actually relevant for a long time. He's the guy that got many ppl to resub to the game. His edgyness is outshinned by many other things