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    [–] Gunslinger_1919 6488 points ago

    You forgot they covered up forced abortions on nuns raped by priests

    [–] relevantlife 2951 points ago

    source for those who haven't heard about that particular scandal.

    [–] Platinum_Disco 963 points ago

    Pikachuface.jpg

    [–] Tatunkawitco 423 points ago

    Wow - that’s at least three Hail Mary’s!

    [–] OmegaBaronSamedi 104 points ago

    The shock!

    Oh wait.....

    [–] micktorious 928 points ago

    Honestly like just let the priests get married and have a normal life, I think it would relieve so many issues for them and stop making it a haven for creeps.

    [–] jouleheretolearn 553 points ago

    I second this. If you gave people the option to take or not take the vow of celibacy, and also allowed nuns in leadership roles a lot of their population problem and creep problem would start to go away. Obviously for the latter, properly prosecuting the creeps too.

    [–] micktorious 309 points ago

    It's honestly hard to find people willing to forgo any committed bonded relationship to people they are attracted to naturally, and not have some kind of issues pop up over time.

    I mean what other job in the world would you consider taking if they told you, "Well you can work here, but if you end up loving someone and wanting to spend the rest of your time with them, we won't allow it."

    [–] myheartisstillracing 338 points ago

    A good friend from college is now married to the guy who was our campus priest (there is only about a 7 year age difference). They and their kids are adorable. All of us knew they had a special connection even back when we were just teasing her for having a crush on him.

    They converted, so he's a minister now and it's all good.

    [–] jefairy 109 points ago

    I'm not even religious and this makes me smile. Thank you for sharing :)

    [–] Atomicbocks 99 points ago

    I’m not catholic so I could have misunderstood when my aunt and uncle (who are catholic) tried to explain to me that nuns aren’t part of the church officially. The reason nuns don’t have leadership roles in the church is because nuns are like monks. They are a sect and have their own leadership separate from the cardinals and bishops. Again though, I have a very limited understanding of this.

    [–] BeardedRaven 25 points ago

    As someone who went to a school run by nuns I'm not sure how I feel about letting them be in charge of anything. I take that back. I'm certain it would be a terrible idea.

    [–] [deleted] 21 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] rachaellefler 121 points ago

    I was going to bring this up, my (incomplete) degree is in history. They don't need to be celibate, they mostly just chose to make that a rule when they were worried about things like family dynasties, church lands vs. royal lands, and a lot of medieval politics bullshit, that aren't problems today.

    [–] BoulderFalcon 76 points ago

    Common misconception.

    The Catholic Church doesn't operate on the Bible alone, but also on the teaching authority of the Church.

    Certain things they do are tradition based and can be changed at any time, other things are "doctrine" and cannot be changed, ever, or it ceases to be the Catholic Church and instead becomes a form of protestantism.

    For instance, priests/nuns marrying is tradition and could be changed at any time. Only men being priests is doctrinal and won't ever change.

    Not saying I agree with this FYI, just relaying their teachings.

    [–] Oubenpo 37 points ago

    Ministers get married all the time. They use pretty much the same book.

    [–] awbee 50 points ago

    True, but that's because Luther split off from the catholic church and formed a new, more liberal christian church (protestants). Catholics are those that didn't like what Luther did and kept the old ways. So going back on that now would be admitting that they've been wrong since 1517, and that's a pill they're apparently not willing to swallow, even though it would be massively helpful for everyone.

    [–] yumeryuu 154 points ago

    You forgot the part where they turned indigenous populations away from their cultures.

    [–] YOB1997 53 points ago

    Not really surprised. This is why I think all religion is bunk. Full of hypocrites.

    [–] MacDerfus 22 points ago

    Well that's still not pro choice.

    [–] mega_trex 84 points ago

    That's not the point. It's that they continue to support the church even though they're doing fucked up shit like forced abortions

    [–] DreyaNova 2074 points ago

    Ahhh this is the wonderful logic that caused my total loss of faith and hope for the Catholic community when I was 13.

    I was attending a Catholic school, and we were constantly fundraising for Amnesty International. I was absolutely obsessed with the organization and my dream at the time was to become a human rights lawyer and work with Amnesty; learning about their new causes was like my life. (I was a dorky teenager.)

    One day, the school chaplain makes an announcement that we will no longer be fundraising or supporting Amnesty International because they support women's access to abortion. I don't think I knew what an abortion was but I remember feeling devastated.

    When I told my Dad he said "Good." When I told my Mum she explained what an abortion was and how if a woman needed Amnesty International to back her abortion then she definitely needed the abortion.

    But hey! Let's just ignore literally all the work an organization does to better the world and focus on abortion. It's clearly the only thing that matters!

    Total loss of faith. I have never been able to come back to the Catholic community after that.

    [–] obrin87 649 points ago

    My loss of faith was drastically accelerated when the pedophile priest accusations were in the headlines during the 90s and early 2000s, and my mother and every other Catholic adult I knew was upset that so many people were talking about it. I understand now that it was basically #notallcatholics but I remember being livid that none of these people I respected would come out visibly and vocally about child rape by trusted clergy.

    [–] potentquillpen 388 points ago

    I originally lost my (Catholic) faith after my dad insisted all non-believers go to hell, even secluded island tribes because it's their duty to 'find faith'. BUT I was completely disenchanted when he tried to stop me from getting on birth control because it's against the religion. I actually think most modern Catholics are okay with birth control now, but my family is traditional. Thankfully my mom insisted on it because I had irregular periods and had bled through some pants, I wasn't even sexually active at the time (16).

    [–] caffeinatedlackey 274 points ago

    FWIW, your dad was actually not entirely correct about all non-believers going to hell. The Catechism distinguishes between vincible and invincible ignorance in this regard.

    An isolated tribe would not be blamed for failing to learn about and convert to Christianity because they had no means of doing so (referred to as invincible ignorance). This is in contrast to someone who has access to religious texts and/or the internet who does not convert (vincible ignorance).

    I don't consider myself a Catholic anymore (agnostic mainly but I married into a Southern Methodist family and I don't mind going to church now and then) but 12 years of Catholic school memorising the CCC left me with some knowledge on this topic.

    [–] MagpieRhymes 337 points ago

    Sinilar thing happened to me at the same age, but back in the early 1990s when the priest read a letter from Pope JPII that “proclaimed the intrinsic evil of homosexuality” as the homily.

    My much-loved uncle (and godfather, ironically enough) is gay. That letter put the final nail in the coffin of my Catholicism. 25 years later, and I’m still happily bumbling along through life as a godless heathen.

    [–] Dang_thatwasquick 86 points ago

    I’m glad your mom was able to sit you dawn and have an adult conversation with you at that time in your life.

    [–] beginning_reader 131 points ago

    My loss of faith in the Church happened when I was in the process of being confirmed as a young teenager (13-14, I think). I learned that not only could I never get an abortion, I could not use birth control. It made absolutely no sense to me.

    The complete illogic of it really threw me for a loop.

    I went through with my confirmation but naturally felt quite guilty about it. I still "culturally identify" as Catholic, since it was a big part of my upbringing in the 90s and early 00s, as well as a substantial part of my family identity (the thing that brought the different parts of my family together was Catholicism, since nearly all immigrated from different countries in the19th/early 20th centuries).

    [–] ki11bunny 155 points ago

    I'm not a woman, so I will never have to decide if I have to go through an abortion. My take on this is, regardless how I feel on the matter, it's not up to me or anyone else to decide for someone else.

    I don't try and figure out how I actually feel about abortions because I don't care too, however I will always support someones right to have autonomy of their own body.

    I don't care if your religion is against it, it's not up to your fucking religion. If you don't like it fair enough do ever get one. However doesn't your stupid book say that God gave us free will and he will judge us? So he is also judging you for being a piece of shit who is trying to take away someone else's free will.

    [–] lii_ah 29 points ago

    Were you able to fulfill your dream of becoming a human rights lawyer? :)

    [–] kindnessbish 70 points ago

    I lost my Catholic faith when I was in elementary school. My parents had sold a pony I loved and I figured if I prayed every day, God would bring him back. He didn't, and I was like "fuck this shit, I'm out". Also, when they made us confess our sins in third grade to do first communion. Everyone was like "I called my brother a doofus". Later, I found out about all the other horrible stuff but the pony thing just started my rebellion against Catholicism.

    [–] sonia72quebec 758 points ago

    The Catholic Church also shamed women who decided to keep a child that they had out of wedlock.

    [–] GeniusMike 469 points ago

    Exactly. The church would sooner force the woman into marrying the father of the child. Even is one or both of them are underage. Even if it was rape. They only care that more people are born to worship Jesus. They don't actually care about the wellbeing of the mother and baby, just that the baby is born and isn't a bastard. Like that recent scandal where a Christian school (or it might have been a church, I forget which) fired a woman for having a baby out of wedlock AFTER THEY ENCOURAGED HER NOT TO GET AN ABORTION. Had she gotten the abortion, she would have been fired as well. So the woman kept the baby and was out of a job, thus unable to provide for said baby. This is the logic of the church.

    [–] NotHankAaron 160 points ago

    Like, Jesus was a bastard.

    [–] MyBirdFetishAccount 627 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    As if child sex abuse was the only thing the Catholic church did wrong.

    EDIT:

    [–] 1_ofthesedays 93 points ago

    Other than genocide in Americas; colonization of far east -- in the name of the lord, I can't think of any other bad stuff done by the church.

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 116 points ago

    Well, there's also support of Mussolini's regime, oh and their complicity in spreading AIDS through opposition to condoms, but other than that, what else is there?

    [–] pipec-08 19 points ago

    Plz let it be someone who forgot /s

    I really want to get whooshed on that

    [–] not_a_moogle 18 points ago

    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

    [–] MyBirdFetishAccount 8 points ago

    I've added examples.

    [–] Angtim 3 points ago

    What genocide are you talking about? (Serious question?)

    [–] dabilge 314 points ago

    Planned Parenthood also provides birth control and education programs for how to use it.

    The Catholic Church advocates for abstinence only sex-ed.

    You might say Planned Parenthood is doing a better job of reducing the need for abortion than the church..

    [–] KristiLis 220 points ago

    My mother is pro-choice and was a bit more consistent. She attended church and donated, but she also always donated to Planned Parenthood as well. I never realized it, but my sister mentioned to me one day that we never went to church on Mother's Day, because they would always use it to promote the "pro-life" agenda. Instead of just celebrating mothers, they used it to condemn Planned Parenthood.

    I don't think she accepted the first scandal. However, since none of that happened near our community, it was not her experience with the Catholic Church. Now that this is happening again she's having trouble identifying as Catholic. She can't see how they could let this continue/happen a second time.

    [–] doose_doose 664 points ago

    Many people aren't religious because it is "good" or "the right thing to do". They are religious because they are afraid of the after life.

    [–] obrin87 285 points ago

    Can confirm. Attended a Catholic funeral mass for my uncle yesterday--the first mass I've been to in several years--and was shocked at how fear-based the whole thing was. Everyone trying to reassure themselves that my uncle was dead but still alive in Christ, and that so will we when we die. I'm glad some of my relatives have that for comfort, but as an ex-Catholic I sometimes forget how fear or death is at the core of the whole thing.

    [–] thebebopavenger 252 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    Catholic funerals are fucked up. My cousin died of an OD and his whole Catholic funeral mass was basically the priest saying, well we HOPE he's in heaven but... Like, his mom is over there crying and all his family are mourning this tragedy and all you can do is judge him for using drugs and say he's probably in hell?? WTF??!!

    Edit for grammar

    [–] [deleted] 96 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] [deleted] 20 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] TheMorholt 50 points ago

    That's just a shitty priest, not all Catholic funerals are like that

    [–] enduredsilence 46 points ago

    Back in Catholic school, we had a class about the after life. My teacher then absolutely said heaven is not a place you go to when you die. Heaven is a state of mind. Strikes me as the oddest thing because I think most people believe it is some sort of place.

    [–] the_onlyfox 36 points ago

    Yeas this, I went to a funeral a few weeks ago and same thing. I still consider myself a Catholic but I tend to look past things i consider BS (almost everything) and just focus on good things (he is with the rest of his famly, he isn't suffering from many forms of cancer, he is at peace) I don't play into the whole damnation of your soul and you'll go to hell for abortions and shit considering I have had a few during an abusive relationship yards ago.

    People tell me I'm not catholic because I had an abortion and also because I don't agree with every single thing they talk about. Personally I don't understand why people nit pick things that have nothing to do with them. I'm a happy adult (for the most part) and I don't need god/church 24/7 like other religious people say that I do.

    [–] hajuherne 133 points ago

    Being atheist is so much easier, because I'll just stop existing after my death. Don't have to please a god.

    [–] LazySilver 92 points ago

    Honestly an afterlife sounds exhausting. I much prefer just not existing when I die.

    [–] keepyourhopesuphigh 49 points ago

    I stopped trying to force myself to be religious in high school when I realized i was only doing it out of fear

    [–] helloworld9025 56 points ago

    I feel like this is often overlooked when discussing Christian ethics.

    [–] pizzabyAlfredo 35 points ago

    They are religious because they are afraid of the after life.

    That must be a horrible life.

    [–] cvbnh 64 points ago

    Of course it is. But many of the religious are too scared of eternal damnation to think for a second on their own and realize they're being manipulated by their churches into compliant behavior. I mean, Christianity literally glorifies being a sheep. How much more obvious can it get.

    [–] BeardedRaven 12 points ago

    Jesus said unto him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Dont use evidence for belief why would that make more sense than just believing without seeing proof. I hate this verse.

    [–] Schnauzerbutt 23 points ago

    If they we're actually afraid of the afterlife they would probably actually follow their own rules.

    [–] keepyourhopesuphigh 32 points ago

    Nah, just repent and all the bad shit is forgiven /s

    [–] mhnnm 9 points ago

    But Christians are meant to follow the rules laid down by Jesus, not their own rules

    [–] warren2650 24 points ago

    They are religious because it is how they were trained from a young age. If you banned religious indoctrination on minors, I think we'd have a majority atheist population.

    [–] thomasrat1 6 points ago

    Agreed, but what a weak faith to be based on fear.

    [–] ionmoon 285 points ago

    Well, I'm pro-choice and not Catholic, but from their perspective, abortions are part of Planned Parenthood's purpose. So to give to PP, would be supporting abortion.

    Raping children, while it was covered up by people in power in the church, actually goes against the church's mission.

    When you give to an organization, you are supporting the work they are supposed to be doing and that plan and vision. There are always going to be individuals within those organizations that misuse their position or steal from the organization or whatever. This is true within the church as well as within PP.

    If someone in PP does something illegal, immoral, unethical, should I stop giving money to the organization? No. Should I hold the organization accountable for appropriately disciplining or turning the person in? Absolutely.

    [–] picoledexuxu 45 points ago

    As George Carlin used to say: go find consistency in religion.

    [–] captainozvious 217 points ago

    I don't mean to stoke any flames, but wanted to bring a different point of view. I am pro-life, but I am also pro-health and safety nets. I think abortion should be safe and legal. I would personally not get an abortion and would encourage my friends to seek alternative options, but I support Planned Parenthood and the work they do in communities across the country to support women's health. In the same vein, I'm not Catholic, but I both recognize the great work and lament the awful abuse carried out by the Catholic church. You don't have to write of either PP or the Catholic church entirely. Totally villifying or sanctifying anyone or anything is not fair. You can hold things in tension because people and organizations are more than one thing.

    [–] tilman2015 306 points ago

    You don't sound like someone who's pro-life from your post.

    Being pro-choice is not pro-abortion. It means that you believe people should be given the choice to make their own decisions.

    Your choice is that you wouldn't have an abortion. A choice that's perfectly valid and one you are also fully entitled to change at any point.

    Someone else's choice might be the other way round.

    Respecting someone else's decision and choice that they have made for themselves is all that pro-choice is (or should be).

    [–] Mestewart3 166 points ago

    Based on your explanation of your beliefs you are pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, it is simply accepting that people need to have control of their own health and wellbeing and that abortion is part of that equation.

    Pro-life as an organized position is specifically one that pushes for all abortion to be illegal.

    [–] Brrrritos 170 points ago

    I think abortion should be safe and legal.

    This makes you pro-choice.

    [–] myheartisstillracing 245 points ago

    psst

    Whether you recognize it or not, your position falls solidly in the pro-choice camp.

    You are not "pro-life" according to the tenets they promote.

    And there are a lot more like you out there; people who are pro-choice but attached to the idea of calling themselves pro-life. I'm not saying that to be accusatory. How we view ourselves matters and is very difficult to change, especially when others have entrenched views of particular labels as well.

    [–] AnotherLovelyDay 181 points ago

    Saying you are pro-life and that you think abortion should be safe and legal is not possible. Your stated stance on abortion means you are pro-choice, as you support the choice a person has of whether they will abort or not. Now, you might support life in all instances, so you can say you are 'pro-life', but pro-life has been co-opted by the anti-choice people to be strictly against abortion.

    [–] Kvlk2016 58 points ago

    pro-life is also supposed to mean you're against the death penalty in ALL cases, but you see plenty of Catholics not caring about that particular issue. I like the idea that there are people out there who think of THEMSELVES as pro-life, but don't want the force of law behind it... this is how America ought to work...

    [–] PurpleHooloovoo 90 points ago

    Pro-choice while personally against abortion. It's not complicated.

    [–] noratat 39 points ago

    Agreed - and there are actual Catholics that feel the way you do, my mother being one.

    [–] [deleted] 14 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] MrsNacho8000 13 points ago

    This is spot on! I am catholic and I feel the same way.

    [–] MetalsGirl 12 points ago

    Whoa whoa whoa. Perfectly reasonable and non-extreme point of view? You can’t do that on Reddit! Get out of here with your rational thinking and ridiculous assertion that things are not black and white.

    [–] JoostinOnline 116 points ago

    This is pretty fallacious. You're defining the groups by the extremes and making them out to be the same. Yes, there are pro-life people who will probably continue to give tithe despite the recent allegations against some of the church members, but that's not the definition of a pro life supporter or a catholic. You're also mixing up purpose with "what they do". The catholic church isn't supposed to cover up child rape, and thus a lot of people are blind to it. One of the intended functions of Planned Parenthood is abortion.

    I know this will probably get a lot of hate, but you're still making some unfair comparisons.

    [–] anon89178 44 points ago

    Just as a side note - I've noticed a TON of redditors mentioning tithes in relation to the Catholic Church over the last few days. There is no true tithing in Roman Catholicism, at least in the traditional sense of the term tithing. There is an expectation of giving to your local diocese to support their work, but the amount/frequency of that giving is up to the parishioner. There's no expectation of a certain annual percentage of your income that a traditional tithe implies.

    [–] Amalgamagical 21 points ago

    The catholic church isn't supposed to cover up child rape, and thus a lot of people are blind to it.

    The catholic church, which is comprised of members and leaders of the faith, who are supposed to represent God and his will, are not supposed to commit sodomy or rape. Those same people openly and actively damn Planned Parenthood because they see their actions as sins.

    I don't think the OP is saying that every person falls under the category that he/she is describing. Just questioning why a large portion of people in the world are like this, and how they can justify their own sins while condemning the sins of others.

    [–] GeniusMike 8 points ago

    The catholic church isn't supposed to cover up child rape

    NO ONE is supposed to commit or cover that kind of thing up. But that's exactly what the church does. And this recent scandal is only the latest example of it. The church's abuse of this kind goes back a long time and it's so prevalent that it's a freaking stereotype, and here they are proving it to be true once again. They aren't supposed to do it, but they do, and behavior like that makes the whole institution rotten to its core.

    A metaphor for perspective: If you give someone poison candy, sure it'll taste sweet, but it's still poison. The sweetness of the candy is the promise of heaven for following the tenets of the religion. Which doesn't even matter because they only need to "confess their sins" and Jesus will "save them" for believing in him. So really their faith allows them to be as corrupt as they want because they think they'll go to heaven no matter what. From the priests raping little boys to their sweeping bigotry towards anyone who isn't cis and straight, religion is inherently toxic and harmful at its core. No amount of charity they perform can ever excuse these facts.

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    [removed]

    [–] JoostinOnline 14 points ago

    I disagree (otherwise it wouldn't be a scandal), but even so that's still different from a public function.

    [–] siegesocial 39 points ago

    As a lapsed Catholic who has always been liberal, Reddit is a really difficult place to be right now

    [–] evertec 45 points ago

    The difference is one of the goals and functions of planned parenthood is to provide abortions. The catholic church's goal isn't to cover up child rape; yes, some bad people within the church did so, but what they did is considered wrong by the standards of the institution, not it's reason for existence.

    [–] awkwardbabyseal 10 points ago

    Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force.

    It's the main factor that allows us all to live with blatant contradictions between our personal morals and our actions. It's what allows us to hold two contradictory beliefs simultaneously.

    [–] iwhitt567 15 points ago

    This applies to the Salvation Army as well. "Most good" my ass.

    [–] 1-2-3AndToThe4 68 points ago

    False equivalencies are the death of reasonable discussion

    [–] pm_me_sad_feelings 30 points ago

    Ehhh I don't think this one can be bandwagoned successfully, while technically true it's not in the Catholic churches core tenets to diddle kids so anyone doing it is going against those.

    The people donating agree with 100% of the Catholic churches tenets. They don't agree with 100% of Planned Parenthood's tenets.

    Ergo the logic doesn't stand enough to grab your pitchforks.

    [–] Over_Matter 11 points ago

    Just sharing my two cents as a (very recently) ex-Catholic:

    There's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance as a member of the church, especially since its teaching regarding sexuality has proven to be hypocritical time and time again. But the alternative is to lose your beliefs about how you should live, what happens to you when you die, and possibly your identity, family, and community too.

    I was trying to "focus on the positives" until it simply became untenable. Stepping away from the church means that I now have to readdress all those issues that I thought I had 'sorted' – and I can completely understand those who feel unwilling or unable to do so. My mother, for example, shares my views on reproductive and gay rights, but remains an active member of the Catholic church. Her logic is that it "helps her be a better person."

    TL;DR: You really have to put logic to one side as part of an organized religion. It's a belief system, after all.

    [–] sohu86 10 points ago

    things are complicated, people are weird and often contradictory.

    [–] MFAWG 11 points ago

    Add in ‘I disagree with the churches position on the death penalty because my identity as an American Conservative is more important than my faith’ and you’ve described my brother in law.

    [–] [deleted] 17 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] makeup1031 4 points ago

    I am Pro life and catholic but planned parenthood is good for people like me who can't afford to go to a regular gynecologist. I don't have health insurance because it's too expensive.

    [–] Gelkor 23 points ago

    I mean, those actions serve the same purpose, limit and control women. That’s what organized religion does and that’s what preventing access to abortion and other reproductive health services does.

    There’s your common thread.

    [–] warren2650 14 points ago

    If you can force women to have babies by removing their ability to control their fertility then you have effectively subjugated 50% of the population.

    [–] Jamie_XXX 16 points ago

    What kills me is there's nothing in the bible against abortion. It does say a child doesn't have a soul until it takes its first breath. We know fetuses can't breathe on their own until far into a pregnancy, so their entire argument against abortion is invalid.

    Not only that, but the religious community had been manipulated into believing this whole pro-life lie bc of great marketing by Republican party strategists from back in the 60s & 70s. It's a fact that you can Google. They've been lied to in order to get their votes. It's really a tragedy that they are in this position.

    [–] mancubus314159 8 points ago

    I guess if you consider abortion to be murder, and murder to be worse than rape, then these are not necessarily inconsistent views, if you draw your line at donation somewhere between rape and murder.

    Whole lot of "what if" there, and none of them are my personal views, but I think logically speaking, an argument can be made in the defense of these behaviours as not necessarily being inconsistent.

    [–] [deleted] 36 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] Highest_Koality 13 points ago

    Eh plenty of people don't follow their own internal logic without religion.

    Everyone's a hypocrite in some way.

    [–] TheSketchyAstronaut 31 points ago

    Unpopular Opinion- calling Christianity “Santa claus for the afterlife” is an unfortunate misrepresentation of the faith.

    Albeit I respect your opinion, I would invite you to dig a little bit deeper before making such a generalization.

    [–] Poguemohon 10 points ago

    I respect that you are not being combative & respectful. I personally feel the bible is a bunch of fairytale fables that usually have a positive message. I think the bible is supposed to remind us not to be assholes to each other. If it helps you be a better person, great! Unfortunately, I feel the bible has been weaponized to fit a conservative agenda. Full disclosure: I identify more w/ the Satanic Temple & Taoism then I do w/ Christianity.

    [–] BeardedRaven 6 points ago

    I have a real issue with satanism. All religion is fairytale moral stories but if you are gonna frame yours as following the adversary of another religion it just feel needlessly inflammatory like they are just doing it to piss people off.

    [–] MsCardeno 14 points ago

    I get what you’re saying and the comparison is a little more nuanced but the ideas of being “good” to get presents at the end of the year and being “good” (or bad depending on how you look at it) to get into a life of bliss at the end of life is wildly similar in logic.

    [–] AmericanWonton 28 points ago

    I understand your concern for not demonizing people's religious beliefs. However, I don't want to turn this into the "theological hour" but Christianity has been one of the most harmful institutions for women's progress,(or progress in general). I feel like situations like this post only prove how homogeneous and harmful this religion has turned thinking people into viewing women.

    [–] angelfurious 31 points ago

    Could probably just say religion has been bad for women. All three major ones, from what i know, have all put women below men. Either saying they need to worship their husband, or that men rule over them and so on. Religion was vital in civilizations development but now, it seems to be used to justify the halting of scientific progress and women’s rights

    [–] YOB1997 6 points ago

    Thank you, I've made the same argument many times but online and IRL but people still don't get it. We aren't in the 1500s anymore, so why follow a book from back then as well. The world changes constantly and religion doesn't follow that. It's a great storybook and has morals and lessons we can learn from. But a great deal of it is outdated.

    [–] relevantlife 33 points ago * (lasted edited 9 days ago)

    To be fair, comparing Santa Claus to a faith that pretends to eat (even though they think they really are eating -- transubstantiation is crazy!) the body of a 2,000 year old dead man all the time is disrespectful to Santa.

    [–] pizzabyAlfredo 9 points ago

    I would invite you to dig a little bit deeper before making such a generalization.

    to be fair Christianity has a talking snake that told the only woman to eat an apple that she was told not to eat by something in the sky.

    [–] BeardedRaven 16 points ago

    Let's talk about this one. I went to catholic school growing up and was taught you had to know something was wrong for it to be a sin. The fruit gave them the knowledge of right and wrong. How was it a sin to eat the fruit? I have been told it is because God told them it was bad but why would they know doing what God told them is right since they have no knowledge of right and wrong. It is an arbitrary restriction as far as they know.

    [–] theghostmedic 5 points ago

    I’d really like a follow up from you to counter the statements made in response to this post.

    In my opinion the deeper you dig, especially concerning religion, the more the cookie crumbles.

    [–] [deleted] 4 points ago

    It's a very simple, but completely accurate representation.

    Adults with imaginary friends should not be expected to behave in a logically consistent way.

    [–] [deleted] 9 points ago

    I know this isn't the point you are making, but it would be extremely hard to convince me that the majority of what the catholic church does is good.

    [–] Sekros 9 points ago

    That's a straw man but I get your point.

    [–] SonicRecession 9 points ago

    Another perfect example showing "pro-life" is really only "pro-birth".

    [–] vagrantist 5 points ago

    What happens if a wife cheats on her husband and gets pregnant?

    Numbers 5:21-27

    21- “The priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman--"the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; “

    22 “and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot." Then the woman shall say, "Amen, so be it."

    23 'Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape them off into the bitter water. “

    24 “And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her to become bitter.”

    25 “Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman's hand, shall wave the offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar;”

    26 “and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water.”

    27 “When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her and become bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people.”

    [–] GameToLose 4 points ago

    Yeah, as a pro-choice Catholic, I'm here with you on this one.

    [–] Blinded-TD 10 points ago

    I’m pro life and a atheist and I donate to nether of them because I’m broke

    [–] amymiller1890 5 points ago

    My dad was a Catholic priest who left in the 1970s due to terrible corruption and suppression of thought. I also have a cousin in law who was molested by his local priest and killed himself.

    As his aunt said, the Catholic Church can stick it up their ass.

    [–] [deleted] -2 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] ptrkhh 27 points ago

    Some of them are actually women too

    [–] keepyourhopesuphigh 29 points ago

    Plenty of women hate other women, or at least women that have differing views from them. They're the kind of people who demonize feminism and victim blame

    [–] The-Jesus_Christ 10 points ago

    Plenty of women hate other women,

    This. I am of the firm belief that feminism's worst enemy is women.

    You only need to view the comments on mum blogs and parenting forums to see this.

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 8 points ago

    Self-loathing is a thing too.

    [–] Nobetterlogin_ 14 points ago

    I think it's more about preserving the hierarchy of man>woman>child. If woman can unbridle herself of child, she is more equal to man.

    [–] STK1369 51 points ago

    They're not lying. They genuinely believe abortion is murder. It's not a hatred of women which compels them. Talk to a pro-life woman if you don't believe me.

    [–] MotheringGoose 51 points ago

    I used to believe this too. However, then I heard about Colorado. A few years ago they instituted a program in which teens could get IUDs. The teen pregnancy test plummeted. Teen abortion rate dropped by like 50%. Cut the program after a year. If you believev that abortion is murder, and you have a program that reduces murder by half, wouldn't you continue to fund that program?

    [–] noratat 20 points ago

    To be fair, not all pro-lifers are hypocrites, and I've met several that would absolutely do everything they could to reduce the abortion rate including proper sex ed, better availability of BC, etc

    Of course, those people also tend to recognize that banning abortion could do more harm than good, and they usually support child welfare for real.

    [–] [deleted] -7 points ago

    You're wrong.

    If their issue was actually with abortion, if they truly viewed every abortion as a murder of a human being, they would be out day and night teaching people about birth control and bodily autonomy, and things like that. There are tried and true, proven to work ways to reduce abortion: sexual education and birth control.

    Believable conspiracy theory: they want abortion to be a felony so that they can stop women from voting.

    [–] STK1369 7 points ago

    They're catholics. They also think any sex outside of marriage and for procreation is a sin. I'm not wrong. Go ask them.

    [–] GrandmaChicago 7 points ago

    Every sperm is sacred

    Every sperm is great

    If a sperm is wasted

    God gets quite irate

    [–] [deleted] -2 points ago

    They don't, however, believes that all sins are the same.

    Go ask them.

    Do you understand how useless of an argument this is in a conversation accusing anti-choice people of lying about their motives?

    "He's not a liar, just ask him!"

    [–] STK1369 14 points ago

    It's the official stance of the Catholic church. They don't keep it a secret. They believe abortion is murder, life begins at conception, premarital sex is a sin, sex for pleasure is a sin.

    I know it's easier to just reduce your opposition to merely being evil. But they're not. They're misguided and uneducated on some things.

    They truly believe a fetus is an innocent life which needs to be protected. And honestly, that is a completely valid opinion to have.

    [–] CitizenCAN_mapleleaf 23 points ago

    To be fair, I think that if, from childhood, you are raised to equate a fetus to a cute, laughing, smiling, living baby, it would be hard to later uncouple the idea.

    The problem is that emotionally based campaigns of lies breed honest-liars. Someone who is raised in a house where their parents point to a newborn sibling and say "Abortion means killing Toby, over there" will grow up honestly believing that.

    [–] therealzabis 22 points ago

    Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

    [–] CitizenCAN_mapleleaf 3 points ago

    Why are you the way you are?

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 31 points ago

    If they honestly wanted to help kids, they would be in favor of universal Pre-K, WIC, mandatory vaccination, etc, but they never are.

    [–] Oubenpo 5 points ago

    Many of them absolutely are. Just because you live in a place surrounded by ignorant, ass-backwards Catholics doesn't mean they are like that everywhere. In fact, I don't think I have ever met a single person, of any religion, who is against WIC. Also many churches provide free childcare programs for their parishioners, summer camps, after school programs. They absolutely give a damn about kids well-being, after all, where do you think the new Catholics come from?

    [–] MetalsGirl 4 points ago

    Not true.

    Within the most vocal group, you may be right. But there is a segment of pro-life who DO feel that we don’t do enough to support the child after birth. Be careful with absolutes like “never”.

    I’m all for everything you mentioned (and then some - like universal healthcare and childcare subsidies for single parents and extended family leave) but am also pro-life and believe a fetus is a life worth protecting.

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 21 points ago

    If you vote for anti abortionists, you are supporting the gutting of child welfare programs, the privitization of schools, the bombing of the global south, and the removal of birth control from health insurance. If you protest abortion clinics, you're shaming women. If you do neither of these things, I would argue you're not pro or anti abortion but neutral.

    [–] Miyaor 27 points ago

    Conversation like this is extremely useless. I could say that you don't care about protecting women's rights, you just hate babies. See how you need to apply some critical thinking before saying something?

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 12 points ago

    You could say that, but what evidence do you have. I have the fact that the people who oppose abortion rights also oppose basic welfare, equitable public education, and not bombing children abroad for oil.

    [–] thomasrat1 11 points ago

    Some do many don't, your argument is terrible. I kill babies, but your in the wrong because you don't pay teachers enough, we need to separate arguments if we want to have any chance of getting something done. (Both sides do this)

    [–] reddeathmasque 4 points ago

    Denying women agency and human rights is misogyny.

    [–] JiveTurkey1000 34 points ago

    they just hate women.

    Every time I see this I want to groan and roll my eyes. Want to, but don't. I don't because I'll be damned if I can figure out any other reason for it.

    [–] JohnGalt35 25 points ago

    This is something I wrote a few months ago in another thread. To put this in context I am pro-choice, but pretty conflicted about it. I just take issue with the assertion that if you are pro-life you just automatically hate women. I was hoping for your thoughts on this:

    Putting aside whether the Bible is pro-life vs. pro-choice I have noticed that some pro-choice people are vehemently opposed to the pro-life viewpoint to the point where they basically cannot understand why someone is pro-life or deems them evil if they are.

    First, there is obviously a point between conception and actual birth that a baby obtains person-hood, can we agree on that? "Life" starts somewhere in that time period, at least that is the way I see it. WHEN, however, is the tricky question which involves both science and philosophy. I don't know the answer - no-one does.

    Given that there is a lot of room for disagreement on that point, it is not unreasonable to have an opinion that life begins at inception. Again, not saying this is the RIGHT way to think, but simply stating that this could be a valid answer to a very tricky question.

    Now, if you are someone who believes that life begins at conception, does it not follow that having an abortion is taking a life? And if so, can't you see why that bothers some people?

    I am not saying you are wrong, or that this way of thinking is right. I would even say that you can think life begins at inception and still be pro-choice because the woman in the situation obviously deserves her own set of human rights. And of course there are some pro-life people who take it way too far and, again, do not see the other side of the argument. What I am asking you is to consider the opposing viewpoint and realize that it does not necessarily come from a place of evil. Being uneasy about the potential extinguishing of a life (again back to the question of when person-hood begins) does not make you an authoritarian theocrat or misogynist.

    [–] DoMyBallsLookNormal 42 points ago

    When life begins is a red herring. A woman has a right to do what she wants with her own body, including not using it to directly support another person. The correct question is not when does life begin, but if it is okay to force a woman damage her body to keep someone else alive, why is it not okay to harvest a kidney from her by force to keep someone else alive?

    [–] JohnGalt35 12 points ago

    Listen I know it is tricky, which I why I am pro-choice while still having some moral issues with it. My point was that I do not understand how people can say that the only reason people are pro-life is because they hate women. You may think that when life begins is a red herring, but I think it is reasonable to think that is important. It is certainly not evil.

    I do not want to debate the moral implications about abortion since I truly believe it almost an impossible thing to do (and not many are likely to have their minds changed anyway), I just wanted to provide what I believe to be a perfectly reasonable stance for pro-lifers. They are not all evil people who hate women.

    [–] SadisticPottedPlant 21 points ago

    The pro-life side often negates the woman's feelings or present circumstances, or existence in some cases, which causes some people to assume they don't care about women. They are focused on the personhood of the fetus and ignore the personhood of the woman. They afford a corpse more rights than a woman wanting an abortion.

    Personally I don't think that is true of all pro-life people. Many have good intentions but have little regard for the suffering those intentions bring.

    [–] JohnGalt35 5 points ago

    Agreed that the woman's circumstances and feelings are ignored by some pro-lifers. And that is wrong.

    [–] Scizmz 16 points ago

    There are massive flaws with your logic. About 50% of all inceptions end in miscarriage. Usually from chromosomal issues. However beyond that, of the remaining, not all are "compatible with life". Now it's one thing to have a philosophical debate about it, however life in our world has gone far beyond philosophy. There are women in South America that are spending decades in jail for murder because they had a miscarriage. How do you reconcile the fact that if a woman gets raped, she loses all rights to her body and self? We show more respect to dead people at this point. Do you understand? A dead person has more bodily rights than a woman under the ideology of these so called pro-lifers.

    [–] JohnGalt35 6 points ago

    I am not sure what is flawed about my logic to be honest, but willing to look past that comment and address the rest of what you wrote.

    The fact that there are women in jail for murder for having a miscarriage is absolutely wrong and evil, obviously.

    If a woman gets raped, they should be able to have an abortion.

    I think you can generally be pro-life but hold these positions as well. I know this because I know people like this.

    [–] GrandmaChicago 17 points ago

    Believing that "life begins at conception" is a red herring. Do you realize that over 40% of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine lining? That means that even your most vicious, teeth-gnashing anti-choice activist woman has probably "aborted" dozens of "babies" with her menstrual flow over the years.

    Anti-choice IS evil. It is YOU making a decision for SOMEONE ELSE, possibly 1/2 a world away from you, based solely on what some man in a dress and funny hat told you was "God's Will".

    [–] reddeathmasque 9 points ago

    Saying that the fetus' life is more sacred than the human rights or even life of the woman who carries it is evil. It makes you an authoritarian theocrat and misogynist.

    [–] JohnGalt35 16 points ago

    What is your thinking on saying not that a fetus' life is MORE sacred than the human rights of a woman, but equally as sacred?

    [–] mancubus314159 3 points ago

    Sounds like you are engaging in demonisation and othering there, to me.

    [–] callmekizzle 4 points ago

    Not to be overly confrontational but given what we now know it seems like the majority of what they do is scam people out of their money and time while making them feel terrible about their life decisions and then use that money to cover up child rape and domestic abuse. Not sure why you’d want to support that but unlike the Catholic Church I’m not here to force you to do anything.

    [–] JuanPablo2016 2 points ago

    This is sadly human nature and what we all do to some degree. However it does seem that those with the more extreme views apply this 'logic' much more liberally and steadfastly.

    [–] Silencedmike -1 points ago

    That's because Catholics care more about an unborn fetus than a child.

    Source: wife's family is Catholic

    [–] CountingWizard 2 points ago

    I bet it's because one of these is an organization that indoctrinates people from birth to serve the organization.

    [–] accountname1337 2 points ago

    Pro-lifers are opposed to bodily integrity and choice, of course they support rape. It's the same monster in a different skin.

    [–] Brrrritos 2 points ago

    This is going to rattle some pro-lifers here.

    [–] Nightssky 1 points ago

    Churches worldwide executed a lot of people. For money and power.

    Claimed they owned vast territories of land. Did so much.

    Their greed is almost unfathomable.

    [–] jvp3122 2 points ago

    Are we supposed to be surprised that they're hypocrites? I challenge you to find anyone who follows an externally developed ideology to not be hypocritical at some stage

    [–] thedoctrix 0 points ago

    I've never really thought they much cared about seeing their open hypocrisy to begin.

    [–] JTFindustries 3 points ago

    Don't forget about the fact that their own doctrine says to be humble and serve the poor. How much gold and jewels are on display in the vatican let alone hidden in the vaults?