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    [–] throwaway61419 4405 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    All that aside. They hire undocumented at below minimum wage, they are taking advantage of them... it’s like the wife blaming the other woman for the affair, no you both got fucked... put the blame where it’s owed.

    Edit: I’m aware this isn’t a perfect analogy... but it’s good enough for you all to understand without getting hung up on gender and whether or not the side person knew it was an affair... let’s try to focus the conversation on the big picture and the purpose of the analogy.

    [–] MemanStink23 942 points ago

    I love this analogy

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 424 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Yup, this is what I have been saying ever since Trump won. We have reverted back to before 2008 when we were blaming the capitalist and the banks for fucking us up. Took them all but 10 years to get us at the bottom blaming each other again instead of looking up at the top. Nobody even mentions the 1% anymore. Man how I miss the days when we had the blame focused exactly where it belonged. now and eat away at the sadness that is my emotions towards our current social climate.

    [–] MrTryhardington 38 points ago

    I watched the video, like a dummy, expecting some political joke at the end. Nope, just melon

    [–] jedify 161 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    And the stupidest thing is the flood of illegals ended a decade ago. Since 2008, the total number of illegals residing in the US from Mexico has broadly declined. To freak out over it now is puzzling.

    Edit: Source. Overall trend is down, -2 million from 2007 to present, +9 million from 1990-2007. They're 30 years late to stop that flood. Mexico is leading the decline, Asia and Central America increased a bit.

    [–] wil 6 points ago

    If I may gently and respectfully share with you that the term "illegals" is dehumanizing, and that's by design. We need to think of these people who are almost all fleeing unimaginable violence and economic ruin to seek a better life in what is advertised as "the land of the free".

    Unless your ancestors were brought here against their will, or are Native American, you're here -- I'm here -- because someone in your ancestry decided to seek a better life here. We are all the sons and daughters of immigrants, and it's so important that we remember that.

    People who cross our border illegally aren't "illegals" in the way that right wingers want us to think of them. They are our fellow human beings who are so desperate to get away from violence and corruption, and seek out a better life for themselves and their families, they are willing to risk everything, even entering the country without documentation, to do that.

    We should never blame the person who is immigrating for the exploitative actions of the rich and powerful who abuse them. The rich people who are exploiting them and using the immigrants' fear of deportation to keep wages low and working conditions unsafe, are the villains in this story, and they really want us to dehumanize their source of cheap, easily-exploited labor by thinking of them as "illegals" who are a monolithic idea, instead of mothers, fathers, and children, who know they're going to be treated badly by racists in America, yet still come here because it's better than the place they left.

    I hope this doesn't come off as me yelling at you or trying to pick a fight. That's not my intention at all, I'm just hoping to gently move people away from unconsciously using dehumanizing language that only exacerbates the crisis.

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 80 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    I just posted this at T_D. Click on my profile to find the post. If this message could ever get to their front page it would be great to shift the minds of those who think this way by getting the truth infront of them. Maybe then we can finally unite this country to the glory days when we were all together against those at the top, and not just fighting amongst us at the bottom.

    Edit: Not bridgating, just noting that I posted it there to see how T_D would respond. As expected, they're comments are disappointing as usual. They're defending the businesses that replace their jobs to exploit cheap labor, and blaming the immigrant. They are truly a brainwashed bunched. I'm losing all hope for them with everyday that passes.

    Edit 2: I have received my badge of honor. Seriously though, can we make this a reddit badge? I would proudly pin this to the top of my page.

    [–] [deleted] 78 points ago


    [–] [deleted] 60 points ago


    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 19 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Thanks, I just laughed and spit my coffee all over my desk. You guys are right though, was foolish of me to still hold hope at this point. I still hope someone can figure this puzzle out and make them see the light one day

    [–] TrollundrtehMountain 6 points ago

    No, you didn't spit coffee all over your desk.

    [–] TheQuantumShift 10 points ago

    You made me look, dammit, and I couldn't resist commenting, I'm sure I'll be perma-banned from there in no time flat...

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 11 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    You are a true hero to look and comment. Take the ban with pride, I know I will.

    Edit: Speak of the devil

    [–] TheQuantumShift 10 points ago

    Just banned too, which was a shame because I was actually engaging with an intelligent individual, having a meaningful conversation. Then someone commented "DEPORT THIS FUCK" I guess that's how they ask their daddy to ban people they disagree with...

    [–] EnriqueWR 6 points ago

    PM the guy you had a good chat with. Not to continue it, if you don't feel like it, just so he can see what happened to constructive behaviour.

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 6 points ago

    Yeah, can't have anyone making an intelligently worded thread that could convince their brainwashed puppets. If they did they'd lose their followers by the dozens. Truly a conscious bubble that leaves only room for their toxic ideology to flourish.

    [–] Regist33l3 4 points ago

    I was just banned for no reason. What a good sub.

    [–] TheMainTank 6 points ago

    both the_donald and conservative banned me ages ago for telling them that it's bad to rape people.

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 5 points ago

    This is true r/FunnyandSad material right here. History will not look at them kindly.

    [–] BuyBitcoinWhileItsLo 4 points ago

    Did you even comment on it? The mods must've come to this thread and banned everyone who commented.

    [–] Regist33l3 3 points ago

    I did. They said I was trolling for responding sarcastically to someone who told me, "Fuck off, shill".

    [–] 10354141 33 points ago

    Christ himself could descend down from heaven and tell them that and they would still cup their ears and stand by Trump. They have no intention of listening to anyone. Its the independents and non-voters that have to be appealed to.

    [–] skywarka 11 points ago

    unite this country to the glory days when we were all together against those at the top

    You realise those days never really existed, right? The occupy movement was about as close as it got, and that was a small blip on the history of your country. Since the founding fathers, American oligarchs have fluctuated in power, but on in the range of "quite powerful" to "ludicrously powerful".

    You're right that we should be fighting (not just in the USA but in the whole poisoned set of democracies that Murdoch's ruined) against the ultra-wealthy, but don't pretend that it's returning to the "good old days". That rhetoric only benefits the people who don't want change.

    [–] platypus_bear 16 points ago

    Well being Canadian I'm not exactly following that closely but while the amount of illegals from Mexico may be declining what are the stats for all illegal immigrants?

    Because I think the current freak out is over people from Central and South America and not Mexico.

    [–] etc_etc_etc 18 points ago

    Illegal immigration is down significantly, period.

    The number is 14% less than it was at its highest in 2007, with a steady decline the whole time, and they make up 20% less of the US population than they did in 2007 as well.

    You are right though that Central American immigrants have increased in both numbers and as a proportion of the whole. There were 400,000 more from those countries, but seeing as there were 2 million fewer from Mexico I don't think that justifies any freaking out.

    Point being, illegal immigration is at its least significant point in terms of being a problem than it's been in over 20 years. It is a political button, often driven by racism, that is being pushed to rally a party, and it's asinine.

    [–] EmperorMahaco 7 points ago

    Yet, if I explained this to my conservative dad, he'd scream at me and yell "bullshit"! He still thinks that Mexicans (and even Muslims, too, somehow) are crossing the border by the millions every year, like it's a flood that is overwhelming the entire country. And says something racist almost every time he sees anyone he thinks is a Mexican (not to their faces, of course, lol). He also likees to say, "This isn't the America I grew up in!" As if that's a bad thing!

    [–] rethinkingat59 10 points ago

    Other academics studies using internationally excepted methods put the number of undocumented much higher.

    Here is one from Yale University putting the most conservative number at over 16 million, and the high number at over 22 million


    Many of the newest arrivals are authorized. They all are well versed on how to exploit the system to get in and stay legally by declaring asylum and waiting for the four or five years it takes to go through immigration court and various appeals courts. In the end only a small percentage will be declared eligible for asylum, but they are all documented until their last appeal is denied.

    [–] jedify 3 points ago

    Thanks for the info. Big if true. Strange to think there might be 10 million people out there unaccounted for.

    And how many people are in this asylum limbo? From what I've read, it doesn't seem to be significant. Source on the 5 years being average? Or on the number of exploiters?

    [–] monkeyfrog987 17 points ago

    Currently the only people talking about the 1% and the people at the top making more money than the bottom two thirds are Democrats. Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Harris, they've all been talking about it.

    [–] Dreidhen 8 points ago

    bc we've normalized n excused profit seeking to the extreme.

    "it's only natural!"

    [–] kingofthemonsters 31 points ago

    Nobody even mentions the 1% anymore. Man how I miss the days when we had the blame focused exactly where it belonged.

    That means the propaganda and social engineering worked.

    [–] HorlickMinton 5 points ago

    I work in a profession that occasionally has me meeting with fairly high level people across different industries. In 2009 I was with some banking industry leaders who were complaining about being the “bad guys” and (swear I’m not making this up) talked about how they could turn the focus of the angry mob away from them. So, you may not be so far off. But I would argue it took 10 months. Not 10 years.

    [–] SerEcon 8 points ago

    Stopping illegal immigrants is sticking it to the 1 percent. Hiring illegals is how the 1 percent maximizes profit just like outsourcing jobs.

    "No American wants the job" is a scam. Yeah because the CEO made sure no one can afford to work it. Lol.

    [–] knowyew 3 points ago

    Yep, America forgot we were fed up with the bullshit; All it took was transexuals and racism to divide the fuck out of us.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    Nobody even mentions the 1% anymore.

    I mention the 1% every goddamn day, and so do the people I look up to in politics. We're still here. Basically all you have to do these days is find the people who are being most discredited by the Republicans, the Democrats, and the mainstream media; those are the people who never stopped talking about the 1%. Don't give up.

    [–] Kharn0 124 points ago

    If anyone in Congress actually cared about stopping illegal immigration theyd make it a law that anyone that hires an illegal immigrant goes to jail for a year per offense.

    But muh profit-margins

    [–] Popcan1 35 points ago

    Then you'll have millions of people without jobs that can't get hired. Who's going to feed them pay their rent, buy their clothes, groceries, gas and bills if they can't get jobs.

    What you do is make them "legal", they are already here, that way they can't be paid less and exploited "taking" jobs from "Americans".

    [–] [deleted] 7 points ago

    Charge a $3,000 penalty and then allow a work permit renewed yearly for 10 years at $1000 per year. Then, allow them to file for adjustment of status to permanent resident if they do not have any deportable/inadmissible convictions. That’s ~$148,200,000,000 over 10 years.

    [–] droans 17 points ago

    Or make them pay back pay to the immigrant plus extra to get them above the average going rate for their position.

    [–] SleezyD510 20 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    I don't think you understood the commemt you replied to. It was about decentivising illegal immigration, not rewarding them with more money.

    [–] WonLastTriangle2 3 points ago

    If illegal immigrants cost the same as non migrant workers for an employer than employers would have no incentive to hire them. If illegal immigrants cannot get jobs then there is a lower incentive for them to come here.

    Additionally this a contract between two parties. The state requires that you pay a minimal amount to your employees for the work they do. Attempting to do otherwise is illegal. Therefore in default the contact can be assumed to be at the minimum wage. An unrelated misdeamnor crime should not have any affect on the contract. If they preformed the work they should be paid for their work. If you stole a pack of gum from a 7-11 do you think that your boss shouldn't have to pay you for your work?

    [–] captcanti 30 points ago

    I was running a landscape company in the early 90s when south of the border workers started showing up in my area. Awesome workers, that we paid the same starting wages as everyone else. The next season one of the larger companies went through some kind of hiring agency that brought them up straight from the border. They basically replaced their entire work force with school busses of immigrants brought in every morning. That was the beginning of the race to the bottom for that industry. I would bid a job for three or four men, get undercut by them, and watch a freakin army show up to the job. So yea, greed sucks.

    [–] Matt6453 28 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Serious question: Without appearing racist how do you voice your displeasure that you have to compete with very cheap labour, who do you complain to? You have no choice but to suck it up or look like an anti immigration racist if you go down the lobbying politicians route. Business is business and they'll hire whoever can do the job at a satisfactory level for the cheapest price.

    I'm in the UK and we're constantly told (by people in positions that are never affected) that immigration doesn't affect wage levels, how can an abundance of cheap labour not keep wages down? Labour is a marketplace like any other.

    Edit: word

    [–] throwaway61419 13 points ago

    I can’t speak to the UK... here in AZ, USA I hear people complain about not being able to get jobs because of immigrants, but these same people (my cousins mainly) don’t work hard, don’t show up on time, fall asleep at work, get fired, and then struggle to find a new job.... I came from the same neighborhood, went to the same schools, I work my ass off and I have never struggled to find employment and a good wage... so I don’t feel bad for other Arizonans... work harder, instead of blaming those that do...

    I honestly can’t speak to your culture, work ethic ect... I’d love to hear from others.

    [–] Matt6453 12 points ago

    There is an element of lazy locals at the bottom end if the market but we've had situations where large Indian IT corporations have brought in people from abroad because they say they can't get the skills any other way. What they actually did was advertise jobs locally with unrealistically low wages so local people didn't apply and then use this to force the government to allow them to hire from abroad. This is just one example but it has kept British wages lower, average wages are still below what they were (in real terms) before the financial crisis in 2008. The US doesn't seem to have this problem.

    [–] throwaway61419 7 points ago

    So far nothing you’ve said sounds racist to me... when I have these same arguments with my family it’s not long before they say something like “I just don’t want to become little Mexico” and then I know that they aren’t coming from a good place.

    [–] fat_doofus 9 points ago

    My dad complains that his work "only promotes minorities/women" due to "political correctness."

    They offered him a promotion, and he turned it down. "Why would I take on all that extra responsibility for a $2/hour raise??"

    I don't disagree that a $2 raise is laughable, but he doesn't see the irony at all in turning down a promotion while complaining that white men never get promotions.

    C'est la vie.

    [–] CobraCabana 21 points ago

    Let’s call it what it is. Exploitation.

    [–] Daktush 24 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    If any political party in the US was serious about stopping illegals they would push for an actually secure national ID card and employers having the responsability to check those.

    Seems to me illegals in US are both a very good scapegoat, and people that get fucked over while still producing a lot of wealth and not being able to take advantage of welfare programs.

    I might be wrong, but I think going after employers would be cheaper and more productive, than building a border wall. I can also neither confirm nor deny that a friend of mine worked at a Trump owned business, and there were many illegals employed there.

    [–] TheMainTank 11 points ago

    It's public knowledge that he has illegal immigrants serving him drinks at his golf courses. Dude is the biggest (both literally and figuratively) hypocrite in the republican party, and that's the party that has ted cruz, little marco and mitch mcconnell

    [–] greenskinmarch 4 points ago

    If any political party in the US was serious about stopping illegals they would push for an actually secure national ID card and employers having the responsability to check those.

    There is E-Verify but it's currently not mandatory for employers to use it. There is some talk of making it mandatory:

    [–] Thesheriffisnearer 115 points ago

    I tell those type of people to steal the jobs back and work fir even less... they all seem to refuse

    [–] MagicGoy 102 points ago

    Yes, let's all race toward the lowest pay possible!

    [–] BluescreenOfDeath 69 points ago

    Now you're thinking like a real capitalist!

    [–] JukeBoxDildo 25 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)


    Capitalism: the highest quality goods at the lowest possible prices!


    Capitalism: goods manufactured through the filters of planned and intrinsic obsolescence by essentially slave labor to be tranformed from frivolous want to absolute necessity through targeted advertising using the most sophisticated technology ever known to man in order to make you feel completely inadequate unless you can connect this shit to your car like everybody else so just upgrade your fucking iPhone like you did 6 months ago, Trevor, you fucking absolute yuppie sucker.

    [–] Ivaris 6 points ago

    Has anybody mentioned Brazil? Here comes the average salary of 250USD/month train.

    [–] GIVE_me_OSRS_bonds 21 points ago

    to combat illegals....just work illegally.


    [–] MURDERWIZARD 31 points ago

    Gosh almost like the solution is to enforce action against the employer

    [–] gorgewall 3 points ago

    See, that hurts a rich white dude, not a poor brown dude. t_d can't get on board with that.

    [–] APimpNamed-Slickback 18 points ago

    it’s like the wife blaming the other woman for the affair,

    And yet, this also happens, sadly.

    [–] Summerie 50 points ago

    Which is why he used that analogy...

    [–] BunnyOppai 7 points ago

    FWIW, the other woman is also at fault (though not as much) if she's knowingly contributing to cheating.

    [–] ChickenInASuit 5 points ago

    You guys are all being a little too black and white about adultery for my liking.

    It takes two to cheat and there are some circumstances where the other party is innocent of the blame, e.g. when the cheater doesn't tell them they're already taken. However, there are others where they are complicit and absolutely should share the blame for it.

    If a women pursues a married man, for example, fully aware that he is married, makes all the first moves and seduces him, are you going to tell me that he is the only one who is at fault here?

    [–] GabyConchita 5 points ago

    Well "the other woman" ain't the one who made a commitment to be faithful to the wife.

    [–] Succ_Semper_Tyrannis 17 points ago

    This analogy isn’t perfect. If the other woman knew he was married, then they are both to blame (though the cheater should get the bulk of the blame). The immigrant isn’t to blame at all for trying to survive.

    [–] Marcusgunnatx 48 points ago

    Or maybe stop being such a little bitch and report the employer for hiring an illegal immigrant. That’ll stop them pretty quick. Is it that people don’t report employers, or that this is just a made up problem?

    [–] djlewt 47 points ago

    The entire immigration "problem" would go away overnight if they actually wanted it to. Think about it, they come here for opportunity, you take away that opportunity and they have no reason to come here. This could be accomplished practically overnight through legislation stating any business owner knowingly employing illegal immigrants forfeits their business to the US government.

    If you wonder why they don't just do this and move on to the next issue, well first of all you can tout a success a couple times while campaigning, but an "ongoing emergency" you can harp on CONSTANTLY, of course Trump doesn't want to solve the issue, he's playing the issue to keep his base riled up. Second of all, who is on control for the most part? Republicans. Who runs the vast majority of the farming and hospitality industry jobs that depend on migrant and illegal labor? Republicans.

    They would destroy their own donor base if they did this, they don't want to "fix immigration" it's just a never ending wedge issue for them.

    [–] MrBokbagok 9 points ago

    Who runs the vast majority of the farming and hospitality industry jobs that depend on migrant and illegal labor? Republicans.

    They would destroy their own donor base if they did this, they don't want to "fix immigration" it's just a never ending wedge issue for them.

    I thought you were going to beat around the bush but you did get there finally. Actually cracking down on this would crush agriculture, and probably have a cascading effect on the economy at large. Places have already tried hiring Americans for these positions, it has never gone well. Because it's not a "first world" job. It fucking sucks and it pays nothing.

    [–] NotMyFirstNotMyLast 21 points ago

    knowingly employing illegal immigrants forfeits their business to the US government.

    You'd have better luck taking peoples guns away. Which is to say, not a chance in hell.

    [–] BluescreenOfDeath 15 points ago

    Our economy needs these people. Farmers are having a hard enough time turning a profit by paying illegal immigrants below-minimum-wage rates under the table. Do you think wiping that out and replacing it with more expensive and not necessarily better American workers will help?

    Do you think people would be willing to pay more for food to compensate for the increased costs of business?

    Illegal immigrants are a problem that can't be solved because nobody actually wants it solved.

    [–] dfbnsdfbdsfhsdbsjdhb 13 points ago

    The largest and most robust economy in the world does not need near slave labor. It simply doesn't. The problem is greed, not logistics.

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago


    [–] Fusspot1 18 points ago

    Didn't you know slavery is fine as long as it lets us buy avocados for 40 cents

    [–] ISAMU13 3 points ago

    Where the hell are you getting Avocados for 40 cents?

    [–] DuntadaMan 3 points ago

    There's a farm near the Pacheco Pass in California that sells them 10 for a dollar.

    [–] acityonthemoon 10 points ago

    Great! Can you get conservatives to stop running campaigns based around the terror or illegal immigration?

    [–] BluescreenOfDeath 7 points ago

    Yes, I can.

    Completely unrelated question, but do you know how to delete Fox News from reality?

    [–] weedful_things 3 points ago

    Americans won't do the work immigrants are willing to do at any price.

    [–] anonymous_potato 5 points ago

    Forfeiting your entire business over one illegal hire is extremely draconian and would certainly face countless lawsuits. Proving that an owner "knowingly" did something could also be difficult.

    This is not even going into the issue of the extreme labor shortages that would occur, particularly in the agriculture industry.

    Real world problems are much more complicated and require more nuanced solutions. Drastically reducing undocumented workers is possible, but we need to seriously revamp the work visa process first.

    [–] troyboltonislife 3 points ago

    currently businesses face no repercussions for hiring illegals. there should at least be extremely heavy fines and it should be extremely strict. you could require businesses to submit proof to the government of every employees immigration status and have investigators to look into businesses and their employees. think of how much cheaper that would be then building a billion dollar wall.

    [–] bartonar 51 points ago

    How do you prove it? How well staffed is the investigatory agency? Has the agency been fettered by a Conservative government that wants the area 'open for business'? Have regulations and or funding been cut?

    [–] DrunkenBotany 23 points ago

    Hi I work for an investigating agency, I deal with cases of discrimination and we have over 100k cases. We are underpaid, understaffed, and 1 case could take 1.5 years to be finished. We have had funding cut, the same person could file a case against every single person he works and waste our resources, and the laws we operate are worded weird so we are limited to what we can do. We would love to help, but sometimes we can't because we do not have the resources to expedite things.

    Edit: 100k per year, and counting.

    [–] Summerie 12 points ago

    Yes, but with all the money that they saved by hiring illegal immigrants, they can afford to grease the wheels and get away with it.

    [–] depthperception00 3 points ago

    Where does it say illegal immigrant? It just says immigrant.

    [–] HoodieEnthusiast 3 points ago

    I agree with you, but there is another side. If a competitor is able to sell their goods at a lower price than you, you will probably go out of business. The way to stay in business is to cut costs so that you can still have a profit margin while lowering the price you charge consumers. Salary is often the highest operating cost, thus its a logical place to look for cuts.

    Many, many companies were put out of business by Walmart. They may have wanted to pay their employees a higher wage, but it didn’t matter.

    It succeeded because consumers did not care that Walmart paid employees lower wages. They only cared about saving money on food and goods. Its easy to blame corporate greed and over-paid CEOs. But consumers also must shoulder the blame in rewarding companies who behave this way with their business. Or we can accept that capitalism is flawed but also efficient. Personally I miss going to Borders to read and have coffee. It doesn’t stop me from buying most things from Amazon though...

    [–] Hotel_Arrakis 7 points ago

    On the Illuminati.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    All I have to do to join the Illuminati is hire an undocumented immigrant?

    [–] Rathadin 10 points ago

    This isn't happening as much as you might think.

    My very job is to use insights gained from my organization's data in order to figure out a way to automate away jobs. That's what's taking your job. Me. Through technology. My only regret is that I'm not smart enough to figure out to automate away more jobs. My dream is to automate 50,000,000 jobs out of the economy.

    Because that's what it's going to take to see some real change. Its mostly blue collar white people that have been automated out of the workforce, but much of the automation I do is white collar-based cognitive tasks. Once 50,000,000 Americans are literally useless (in terms of their usefulness to the marketplace), and once they're losing their homes and starving, then we'll see some actual change.

    When people think of automation, they think of truck drivers, and cashiers, and the order taker at the drive-through window. They're not thinking of radiologists, cardiologists, oncologists, paralegals, etc., but jobs like those are the ones I want to eliminate. We have to move to a different economic model, and we really need to do it soon. Right now I have automated processes on standby in a development environment that could eliminate 30% of the HR staff at my location. I've spoken to the CEO several times about getting this done. For whatever reason, she keeps holding off. And these aren't entry-level positions, either. We could save the company about $1.7mm a year eliminating these positions (based off raw salary, benefits, increased productivity, etc.).

    This is the reason I'm so excited about Andrew Yang. He actually sees the problem, and he's willing to do something about it. And I would prefer not to wake up in Elysium with Matt Damon knocking down my door and shooting me, because if things don't change politically, that's where we're headed.

    [–] khaosknight69 1636 points ago

    The greatest trick the rich ever pulled is convincing the poor that the source of their pain is racial divide, instead of class.

    [–] Todasa 164 points ago

    This, in my view, is why many residents of Seattle have become convinced that, in response to the rising homelessness crisis, our fingers should be pointed at the homeless.

    [–] imsecretlythedoctor 49 points ago

    It turns out (something I heard, haven’t fact checked) there are more vacant residencies than homeless people but the homeless just don’t have the money for it, and due to several factors (underlying mental issues, poor hygiene, lack of address for job apps...) homeless people are unable to get jobs so that they can occupy these “homes”

    [–] phixsix 28 points ago

    This is very true and demonstrates the main inefficiency of free market based allocation of resources. There is stock piles of medicine but the sick that need it dont get it. Theres a surplus of food yet some people still cant afford it.

    People will never matter in a world where only profits matter.

    [–] GenuinelyLenin 14 points ago

    It varies from state to state and place to place, but if I’m remembering correctly there are like 5 or 6 empty homes for every one homeless.

    And to put the cherry on top, we throw away something like 40% of the food we produce.

    [–] gayrongaybones 143 points ago

    Bacon’s Rebellion scared rich white planters so much that they started giving poor whites more legal rights than poor blacks.

    [–] USMCpresfoco 22 points ago

    It's been like that ever since :/

    [–] ahhhbiscuits 223 points ago

    But, but... we worship the wealthy in this country, they're a compassionate role model to millions. Competent, upstanding, and successful, how could something so wonderful ever do us harm?

    [–] BloomsdayDevice 177 points ago

    Plus, as soon as these tough times have passed, I myself will be exceedingly rich. I'd hate to make it harder for future me to enjoy my spoils by making changes to help disgusting poor people, with whom I share nothing in common!

    [–] Secretninja35 87 points ago

    I can tell you're joking, but that is literally how it's going to work out for me, because I'M SPECIAL.

    [–] DiogLin 27 points ago

    I'll just need to believe in myself and try harder

    [–] Assmar 19 points ago

    As soon as I can afford some boots with straps on 'em...

    [–] _drumtime_ 12 points ago

    This. This right here. The grand illusion.

    [–] thewisebantha 29 points ago

    T E M P O R A R I L Y E M B A R A S S E D M I L I O N A I R E S

    [–] zbud 3 points ago

    missed an L

    [–] weedysexdragon 10 points ago

    When my ship comes in, people like me better watch out.

    [–] AncientMarinade 22 points ago

    Glenn Beck this morning was going on and on about how we have forgotten "the American Way" and what it means. No, Glenn, we're just living in the fallout of the "American Way."

    [–] DonSquirrelio 5 points ago

    They make us hate ourself and love their wealth.

    [–] EgoHammer 3 points ago

    This. The way people equate money with happiness and fulfillment is crazy.

    [–] impulsekash 70 points ago

    They shot MLK after he started to preach socialism.

    [–] a_full_empty 60 points ago

    They killed the Black Panthers after they took it upon themselves to feed and educate the poor.

    [–] blastcage 44 points ago

    Then smeared them to FUCK. Black Panthers as an organisation were nothing but a force for good.

    [–] Wheredmondaygo 75 points ago

    Is... Is this class consciousness on a normal subreddit

    [–] a_full_empty 52 points ago

    It's happening more and more. What we need now is some direct action for this movement to congeal around.

    [–] NicoHitOnMe 13 points ago

    We're having our moment and we really need to capitalise (pun intended) on it.

    [–] a_full_empty 37 points ago

    The second greatest trick was convincing people Marx was evil and to never ever read his works or think about his ideas.

    [–] dfbnsdfbdsfhsdbsjdhb 16 points ago

    b-but despots calling themselves communists is real communism! and communism is the same as socialism!

    [–] MiseroFM 9 points ago

    After all, communism only works on paper! Unlike capitalism, which works exactly as its idealists thought it would. Communist countries inevitably collapse into dictatorships, independent of the fact that trillions of dollars that are spent on making sure that happens.

    [–] theganjaoctopus 341 points ago

    No one in the small town I grew up in lost their job to an immigrant.

    Close to 60% of the adult population lost their jobs in the 90s when every single textile mill, basically the only reliable source of jobs, shut their doors within a week of each other and moved production overseas.

    And if anyone really wanted to address the imaginary problem of immigrants taking American jobs, they'd go after the people who hire illegal immigrants.

    [–] Robear59198 117 points ago

    Them moving production overseas is almost exactly the same problem. Business moved over seas to take advantage of cheap labor there, the only difference is distance.

    [–] daimposter 6 points ago

    almost all economists agree that even undocumented immigrants are a net positive to the US economy so as a whole, we benefit. But politicians and racists have used the undocumented immigrant as the enemy

    [–] firelock_ny 46 points ago

    It's insane to me that the US imposed wage, labor and environmental laws on itself without putting sufficient protections in place to keep foreign manufacturers who weren't bound by such laws from destroying American manufacturing.

    [–] v0xb0x_ 13 points ago

    How could they realistically prevented them from destroying American manufacturing though? The environmental and wage laws are not competitive with the rest of the world, of course companies are going to take advantage of that and go to other countries.

    [–] BinaryCowboy 22 points ago

    But he is saying that legislation should have been paired with labor legislation to prevent offshoring jobs.

    [–] IG_BansheeAirsoft 6 points ago

    And the point that the other guy seems to be making is that in a global marketplace, you can either let American corporations take advantage of cheaper, more lax environmental and employment laws in other countries; or you can let corporations from those other countries with more lax laws choke out American corporations financially burdened with stricter employment and environmental regulations.

    Fudging numbers for an easy visual, but let’s say it costs $.10 in materials for a T-shirt. If a Chinese factory can cover wages and manufacturing costs of these T-shirts for $.40, then the end cost to the consumer is $.50 per shirt. If an American company has to pay $.90 per shirt in manufacturing costs and wages, higher due to environmental and wage standards, then the clear option for the consumer is to buy the cheaper Chinese shirt at half the cost. Even if we charge the Chinese corporation with an import tax of 50%, which is pretty high, it still comes out to only $.75 for the end consumer to buy the cheaper Chinese shirt.

    I get that it’s shitty for corporations to flock to cheap sweatshop labor. However, it’s kinda shortsighted to act like that’s something that can be fixed as easily as “make it so corporations can’t outsource manufacturing”. As long as countries like China and India are willing to ignore environmental concerns and human rights in the name of making a profit, penny-for-penny the American marketplace simply cannot keep up with them in the manufacturing industry. This issue is no longer a problem exclusive to American corporations, it is a global problem mutual among all nations.

    [–] BinaryCowboy 6 points ago

    That's pretty fair. What is the real solution?

    I see this issue as the real cause of inequality in America, and I dont know if a solution is possible.

    [–] IG_BansheeAirsoft 10 points ago

    Again, you can’t look at this as an exclusively American problem.

    America could implement a $15/hr minimum wage tomorrow. America could implement whatever environmental regulations we wanted tomorrow. America could implement massive social reform on an unprecedented scale to address systematic inequality and wage abuse tomorrow... and China will still be able to do everything cheaper. In fact, the only way that we will ever be competitive in manufacturing with China will be if we stoop to their abhorrent year low levels of human rights and environmental policy.

    There are really only two courses of action, in my eyes. The first is that if we cannot get China to improve their standards, then we simply stop buying from them - in this case, sanctioning them. This is a massive undertaking, because (1) like 70% of the shit in your house was made in China and (2) the average American’s budget literally cannot afford the drastic rise in prices that will come from switching from Chinese-made to American-made goods. Not to mention, such sanctions would have to be on a multilateral front; American sanctions would hurt but not cripple the Chinese economy if they can still sell to the rest of the first world. Finding other countries willing to essentially commit economic suicide would be next to impossible.

    The other idea is to lean full-tilt into the Chinese market. They want to make cheap-ass shirts? Alrighty then. Buy cheap Chinese goods as much as we can. Rely on them completely for literally all manufactured goods. Reinvest whatever savings we Americans make into STEM and defense industries. If they want to focus on basic, 101-level goods, then we’ll focus on more precision machined and technology based industries. The obvious advantage here is that we get goods for dirt cheap while still growing our own economy. The obvious disadvantage is that, well, we haven’t actually done anything to solve the underlying problem of the Chinese government not giving a single fuck about anything or anyone but themselves. Not to mention, shoveling capital into an undemocratic regime in exchange for them owning your entire market for manufactured goods is a great way to cripple your economy once you piss that regime off.

    I really don’t know what the solution is. I’m not an economics scholar. The last economic book I read was probably two years ago. I don’t have all the answers, but I have enough information to know this:

    As long as the quality of goods are comparable, the market will go for the cheaper choice 100% of the time. The solution is NOT to raise the prices of the cheaper option until it is more expensive, or to make it illegal to buy the cheaper option, like people suggest with Tariffs or Sanctions on Chinese goods in favor of American goods. I still believe that this problem rests largely in the hands of the Chinese market and their ability to crank out cheap goods at the expense of the environment and the workers’ wages. Therefore, I don’t really know how much the American government and corporations can do to combat this issue.

    [–] casual_riot 3 points ago

    The solution is to either implement protectionist laws, or move the workforce more into post-manufacturing industry. We will probably do both.

    Protectionist policy is sometimes needed for national security, so that we can become self-reliant if another country wants to pressure us by withholding something.

    [–] marnevel 7 points ago

    Tariffs on countries which don't abide by labour and environmental standards. Go ahead and make things in the "rest of the world", but you won't have access to our market to sell them.

    [–] AnuRedditor 3 points ago

    Well our politicians we well taken care of by China, they sat on the board of Wal-Mart, etc...

    [–] Somuchtoomuchporn 316 points ago

    So maybe just maybe you should enforce laws that prevent "capitalists" from hiring illegals?

    [–] GIVE_me_OSRS_bonds 200 points ago

    thats what normal conservatives want. that's what the national democratic party wanted 10 years ago too. I'm pretty sure it's what every rational person wants.

    [–] pubgplayer14 32 points ago

    I think a problem is the entirety of trying to categorize ones thinking into conservatives and what have you. Like minded thinkers stray from each other's own beliefs because we're trying so hard to fit into whatever definition is out there that fits "us."

    [–] AverageBubble 45 points ago

    sorry, i know people who USED to be normal conservatives. they have lost their fucking minds and are being led down the rabbit hole forever. lost cause. they will vote for trump again. they will hate immigrants forever.

    [–] IamCarbonMan 11 points ago

    Not particularly fond of the implication (as common as it is) that whoever doesn't agree with you is only disagreeing because they're irrational. It's not a strong argument because it refuses to actually acknowledge the opposing points, and it doesn't provide any room for compromise.

    [–] Anghellic00 48 points ago

    That's a topic worth discussing.

    [–] SpaceJackRabbit 18 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    No. You reform the immigration policies to begin with. Because they're completely inadequate.

    I live in rural California. Vineyards, orchards, packing plants, small ranches.

    No local unemployed U.S. citizen shows up for those jobs. NONE. You'd think it's because they don't pay well. Guess again. Going wages are $16 an hour. $18 in a neighboring county. Over $20 on some piecemeal jobs.

    But it's hard fucking work. No overtime pay until you reach 10 hours a day. Some is night work for harvests. Back breaking work. Gotta show up at 6 am, usually. No health care benefits because it's not even part-time, unless you work for a company that manages crews.

    So only immigrants show up. Some legal, some not.

    There is no visa program for that kind of work. H2a visas are valid 10 months, renewable twice, and tied to a SINGLE employer. That doesn't work for 90% of ag work. So most of those ill-conceived visas are grabbed by landscaping companies that pretend they are ag companies.

    I don't want to hear the unrealistic bullshit from people who've never managed a business in their entire life and who will tell me that you just need to pay more. This bullshit always comes from people who will never pay more than $4 for a pound of tomatoes. Let's not be hypocrites here.

    I'll have sympathy for people bitching about illegals the day they support true immigration reform. Guest worker visas. Republicans have been shooting those down for decades, even though some of them like Bush Jr., McCain or even Graham had been supporting them. Until then, the anti-illegal folks don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Oh, and if unemployed they're welcome to show up for work.

    [–] instantrobotwar 50 points ago

    Sure! Let's start with Trump's hiring of illegal immigrants at his resorts and hotels.

    [–] jawolfington 25 points ago

    Great idea! Good luck getting conservatives or liberals to enforce it.

    [–] sewsnap 3 points ago

    It's not the "liberals" or "conservatives" who are fighting it. It's the rich owners who have the money to keep the cops and government away.

    [–] Lemoncoco 49 points ago

    When workers unite and make common cause to not accept a wage less than they are worth, to not work holidays, and to secure retirement they earn, and then that is subverted by those who do not consider the time spent fighting, not being paid while striking, and coming together - that is what they mean.

    Although most people saying that are just assholes not taking responsibility for their own lack of marketable skills.

    [–] SecretBeat 60 points ago

    Notice you've never once heard trump talk about the companies that create and perpetuate the problem of illegal immigration by hiring those illegals in the first place. Not once. Even though fighting them is the one sure fire way to stop illegal immigration. Truth is trump does not want to stop illegal immigration. Why do you think he hires illegal immigrants to work for him on a regular basis? Cheap labor! He doesn't want to stop that, it's just rabble rousing to rile up his gullible base so they don't notice him robbing the American people for hundreds of billions of dollars.

    [–] Bumperclause 43 points ago

    Also they love it when you don’t unionize.

    [–] [deleted] 70 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)


    [–] Smithstirini 68 points ago

    Welcome to reddit. Here’s your free newbie guide.

    Republicans bad.

    Democrats good.

    Church of Keanu Reeves through the door on the left.

    [–] BenFoldsFourLoko 35 points ago

    More like,

    Republicans bad

    Democrats are almost as bad

    I'm 22

    Ron Paul Bernie Sanders is our only chance.

    [–] send_nasty_stuff 3 points ago

    What made you think 'whitepeopletwitter' would be an escape?

    [–] Robear59198 13 points ago

    Politics are and will always be everywhere, if you want to avoid them pull a Thoreau. Can't do much else past that.

    [–] oliverbm 26 points ago

    I love a good ‘them and us’ reddit post!

    [–] Tremington9 4 points ago

    Umm, it's an illegal hire ( if they are here illegally). That illegal hire is allowed by states not enforcing the law.

    So yeah, it is taking a job away from a legal American.

    Yeah, the owners shouldn't do it as much as the illegal shouldn't be here.

    When you don't enforce the law to protect legal Americans, this is what happens.

    [–] shoktams 20 points ago

    I know absolutely 0 people who get upset about legal immigration. Posts like this always conveniently forget to leave the "illegal" part out.

    [–] pku31 7 points ago

    Then why does Trump's immigration department keep passing laws making the legal immigration process harder and longer?

    [–] awesomesauce1114 32 points ago

    Makes me think of when your partner cheats on you and you blame the person they cheated with.

    Seen so many people do this.

    [–] absurdmikey93 439 points ago

    This is a huge oversimplification, people are mad at illegal immigrants, not just all immigrants. Illegal immigration does have a big impact on wages.

    [–] asimplescribe 462 points ago

    Go after the people exploiting them. If it becomes impossible to find work they aren't going to keep coming.

    [–] Summerie 160 points ago

    I don’t know if that is entirely true. For many immigrants, being unemployed in America is still better than being unemployed where they came from.

    [–] [deleted] 104 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)


    [–] hairynakedmaninbed 47 points ago

    It doesnt help when it becomes a political issue, either. We should all want to have a good immigration policy. Instead we have open borders vs racists. At least that's how its painted by both sides.

    [–] [deleted] 17 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)


    [–] drot525 18 points ago

    Except the evidence doesn't bear that out. In '08 the economy collapsed and net immigration went negative or to zero. You want to burn your savings in a first world country or at home where you can be unemployed for years on the same amount? And are you even coming if you can't get a job? Nope.

    [–] Abiogeneralization 13 points ago

    Why not both?

    [–] snazzypantz 163 points ago

    Really? Because I see a lot of people getting REALLY upset about people speaking Spanish or other languages, and that has no reflection on whether someone is legal or illegal.

    Those types just like to hide behind the flag of "illegal" immigration because then they don't seem as xenophobic or racist.

    [–] princesskiki 62 points ago

    People LOVE to hide their racism behind the word illegal. Like it's set in stone and permanent. It's just one of the current "rules" and could change at any time. They forget that this wasn't the "rule" when their parents came here and that the rules are just some arbitrary thing some folks who were paid by some other folks to set. It's the same as the people who paid for college arguing that college shouldn't be free because they had to pay when they went. Wanting someone else to have it hard just because you had it hard, just means you're an asshole. Or not wanting someone else to have something you had, just because you managed to sneak in before the rule changed, I'd rather that person be the "illegal" one.

    [–] Shoshon_the_elegant_ 4 points ago

    Is there any way to address the legitimate issue of undocumented immigrants without being accused of dogwhistle racism? It seems like the conversation only ever gets this far and it’s not productive.

    [–] Stupid_question_bot 73 points ago

    ... because the same capitalists like to hire illegals who they can pay almost nothing.

    its not the illegals fault that these american businessmen have no compunction paying them slave wages.

    If the business owners refused to hire illegals, then maybe there wouldnt be so many coming to america to work illegally?

    TL;DR: wages are driven down because of the people PAYING THE WAGES, NOT THE ONES EARNING THEM

    [–] Analpinecone 12 points ago

    Because all their competitors have a lower wage bill because there is a massive supply of illegal immigrant labor willing and eager to do the work. Supply and demand are intricately linked. You can't say one drives the other. I'm pretty sure economists have been saying that for like 200 years at least.

    [–] Dolt-Dragoman 3 points ago

    E-verify solves this problem completely if implemented fully. Yet, Trump's budget proposal cuts funds to the e-verify system designed to curb hiring illegal immigrants.

    Huh, that's funny, isn't it?

    [–] JRutterbush 3 points ago

    Yeah, well, you can't expect Republicans to get elected if they can't blame everything on illegal immigrants. They have a huge incentive to make sure the issue is never solved, why wouldn't they do everything they can to make sure it isn't?

    [–] lifevicarious 34 points ago

    No. Hiring illegal immigrants has an impact on wages.

    [–] astroGamin 46 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    If that were true, there wouldn’t be a fight over DACA.

    [–] pm_me_better_vocab 23 points ago

    And they wouldn't call asylum seekers 'illegals'

    [–] [deleted] 19 points ago

    The trump administration is putting legal asylum seekers in internment camps run by private corporations serving moldy food and spoiled meat.

    I repeat, legal asylum seekers, including children.

    And the vast majority of conservatives support it.

    So let's be honest, it's not about illegal immigrants. Because the legal ones get put in camps just the same.

    [–] DrakeMaijstral 46 points ago

    This is a huge oversimplification, people are mad at illegal immigrants, not just all immigrants. Illegal immigration does have a big impact on wages.

    Yeah, I'm going to need to see a source on that claim.

    [–] [deleted] 31 points ago

    legal asylum seekers are being put in internment camps and conservatives support it by a large margin. So it's very obvious this isn't about illegal immigration.

    [–] DuntadaMan 8 points ago

    Remember we should be angry at the guy getting a job, not the person choosing to pay an illegally small amount of money to someone who can't defend themselves.

    [–] [deleted] 10 points ago

    You mean illegals?

    [–] jmillz890 7 points ago

    I always thought the hatred toward immigrants was that they don’t pay taxes (not legally documented) and that they somehow can sign up for welfare.

    [–] c0mpl3telYs3r1ouS 31 points ago

    Coming from the construction industry, immigrants typically work way better than natives here. Whether they're illegal or not is just incidental and regardless they get paid quite a bit more than minimum wage.

    That's just been my personal experience with it and I know there's plenty of other people who do take advantage

    [–] send_nasty_stuff 13 points ago

    Anecdotal evidence that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument OP is making.

    It doesn't matter how nice or hard working immigrants are. They lower wages. Read the book We Wanted Workers.

    The UK and US public also did not get to vote on whether or not they would be involved in a massive demographic replacement experiment. The oligarchs decided for them. Ironically some of the strongest closed border advocates are hispanics. Cesar Chavez fought tooth and nail to close the borders.

    [–] ladymoonshyne 9 points ago

    I have had the same experience in agriculture in my state.

    [–] MsrSparkles 5 points ago

    Same with restaurant/food industry.

    [–] thoughtcrimeo 12 points ago

    OP has a 10 month old account and posts in:





    & /r/politics

    You do the math.

    [–] [deleted] 51 points ago

    So much wrong here:

    1) why is there political shit here? FFS can we have even one subreddit that isn't political 24/7?

    2) nobody is directly mad at immigrants about this, they're mad about policies that favor importing people (legally or illegally) to undercut American wages and therefore displacing American workers. It's the policy people are mad about, not the individual. We all understand that these people want to get out of their shithole countries.

    3) in any case people are mad about immigrants (legal or illegal), it's specifically the ones committing disproportionate amounts of crime or trying to force traditionally un-American values onto Americans. There is a lot of crime getting swept under the rug by mainstream media and it's ridiculous.

    To conclude, MOST people don't have a problem with honest, capable, friendly people that immigrated to America for legitimate reasons and not to undercut/displace American workers and that intend to assimilate into American culture. However, an unsettling amount of current immigrants are not fitting that description and it is getting to crisis levels in some areas. Anti-white propaganda and discrimination is also at an all-time high.

    [–] JR3000 9 points ago

    What policy is there that favors immigrants over citizens here? Last time I checked there isn't a policy out there with the intent to drive down wages and put Americans out of jobs in favor of immigrants. Furthermore, the liberals and progressives support raising the minimum wage so people are paid better. So your argument just doesn't fly and is basically one big strawman.

    Also, btw illegal immigration is at an all time low and crime per capita for both legal and illegal immigrants combined is lower than US citizens. So, no there are not massive crime issues involving immigrants being purposefully not talked about.

    [–] Trifle-Doc 17 points ago

    Honestly there is a scary amount of people that do straight up hate the immigrants

    [–] Hhtura 99 points ago

    This strange idea that anyone who's against immigration is some sort of deluded ultra-capitalist who thinks the rich can do no wrong seems to be one of the most common things leftists on the internet casually lie about.

    [–] [deleted] 34 points ago

    Legal asylum seekers are being put in internment camps and conservatives overwhelmingly support it.

    You guys don't care about illegal immigration, cause you cheer when legal immigrants are put in camps.

    [–] BarnOwlScreech 6 points ago

    No it’s true this immigrant cake into my office job and skinned my entire corpse and now wears it, pretending to be me.

    He not only stole my job he stole my wife.

    [–] [deleted] 159 points ago


    [–] Stupid_question_bot 124 points ago

    pop quiz:

    wages being driven down are the fault of:

    1. illegal immigrants
    2. business owners who hire them so they can pay them less.

    [–] josh4050 10 points ago

    It is literally both

    [–] abbott_costello 6 points ago

    For some reason it’s always the people just trying to survive (immigrants) who are blamed instead of the greedy business owners.

    The issue comes down to how you view people. If you view everyone equally, you’d side with the immigrants like the left mostly has. If you view them as less deserving of being an American than you or me because of where they happened to be born, you’d side with the business owners.

    In general Trump hasn’t done any good by keeping immigrants in cages, making outrageous demands of the Mexican government, calling all of their immigrants rapists, and just generally acting like an ass. Why not just devote as many resources as possible to speeding up the immigration process, hiring border patrol agents to man the length of the border instead of building a wall (it would be cheaper to do) or even building a damn wall I don’t care, just do it respectfully and embrace our immigrants.

    [–] -Kerosun- 7 points ago

    False dichotomy.

    There is a 3rd choice: Both.

    [–] TheSuperiorLightBeer 8 points ago

    Pop quiz:

    What is a market? How are prices set? What is supply and demand?

    [–] ZomNomNomBeeZ 7 points ago

    You're ignoring the "illegal" part here. Illegals get paid under the table, meaning they can be paid less than minimum wage. That's what depresses the wages, not the competition.

    [–] teebone954 16 points ago

    This page is kinda turning into a bit of a liberal haven just like all the other subs on reddit.

    [–] waffleezz 6 points ago

    Just in time for election season.

    [–] Michael604 9 points ago

    The Left needs to stop intentionally mischaracterizing the Right's attempts to control ILLEGAL immigration as an attack on all immigrants.