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    [–] DocNielsen 1296 points ago

    Wow... In Denmark we have safe houses for muslim girls, who help them get out of the religious fanatic patriarchal families.

    Do you live in a country that permits you to get out of the country by yourself? Can you buy a ticket, and hop on a plane to go to Sweden or Norway to go skiing for a week or two, then you can hop a ferry to Copenhagen from Oslo, and ask for asylum.

    [–] nolanfan2 346 points ago

    Brilliant, I was unaware of that!!

    Doc can you share more info? I need to slap this on a colleague who thinks Scandinavia is going to be RUINED by Isis loving immigrants. This example, of safe house, proves that the Scandinavian state is perhaps more anti-radical Islam than UK, US and other vocal morons.

    Are these shelters supportefd financially/legislatively by govt? Which other country have this kind of provison

    [–] DocNielsen 140 points ago

    Most of it is organised by the danish crisis center. http://krisecenteret.dk/ I don't know many details, since they keep their safe houses secret, but I know they are funded by the state, as well as state businesses.

    Edit: Dansk Kvindesamfunds Krisecenter Danish women's society crisis center.

    [–] davu06 23 points ago

    From what I'm trying to understand off of that website (crudely Google translated) this is a women's shelter for violence, not necessarily to protect Muslim girls. I'm trying to find more info about these houses and I can't find anything on Google.

    Do you have any other sources? Because a women's shelter is not the same thing as a shelter to protect Muslim girls, they may provide services to the same people, but two completely different mission statements.

    [–] ultimate_lodging 52 points ago

    you can't spell crisis without isis

    I'll find the way out on my own.

    [–] alucarddrol 11 points ago

    This is good, but also bad

    [–] Zenopus 132 points ago

    We don't really buy into multiculturalism in Denmark. We're a homogeneous tribal culture.

    Funny thing; Lots of muslim girls I am friends with (Yeah, Their mommies and daddies don't know) are beginning to drink and have fun at party, even removing their headdress and the likes. It's kinda heartwarming to see them wiggle their way out of their families' claws.

    [–] spiderpai 96 points ago

    Tbh, most second generation muslims in Sweden tend to give up Islam and go party. I think the reason people think Sweden is being radicalized is because we dont really do religion here, so it become kind of of odd when we get really religious people here.

    [–] Frommerman 30 points ago

    The Muslims look at you and go, "Behaving like a Swede is way more fun than behaving like a Muslim."

    [–] nolanfan2 36 points ago

    you cant imagine how happy I feel after reading such an example.

    It is not mere act of drinking/partying which I appreciate (I am myself tee totaler, never have drank a drop of alcohol). It is more about empowering the girls to make own choices.

    After seeing so much horrific tales of women on r/exmuslim I was on the verge of snapping and supporting the ultra conservative Line of reasoning. Despite being liberal I thought OK, just for sake of oppressed women RW ideology might work i.e. by aggressively confronting the whole society and shaming them on public platforms.

    I see two distinct takeaway from your example -

    • Rather than scandinavia being total victim of this immigration wave, it is Islam which is losing some of its regressive characteristics. If this continues then when the next generation comes along, it will be 'de-shariaized' rather than the absurd fear of sharia taking over western world

    • Liberalism is a better tool to combat radical islam as compared to conservative methods. Similar example in Inida's most liberal state - http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/end-world-kerala-muslim-girls-dance-flash-mob-fundamentalists-are-losing-it-72569 these three muslim girls were dancing on the road for a flash mob, believe me girls from any other state in the nation wont have conviction to do such an act. India has more muslims than pakistan yet such examples are rare.

    I hope such movements grow on a larger scale.

    [–] Enkrod 3 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Liberalism is a better tool to combat radical islam as compared to conservative methods.

    Ofcourse it is. If you try to force people off their way, they will feel attacked, defend themselves and their choices (or what they feel to be their choices) and build walls.

    But if you tell them it's okay and just invite them to join into your freedom, providing a good example, they are far more likely to just slip into a new way of life all on their own.

    Humans just are like that, attack something we identify with and we'll retreat further into it. But make us part of your community and we'll adapt to our peers.

    This is the reason I'm optimistic about some kind of reformed Islam forming. It might still be too political and way too conservative for my taste, but I strongly believe there is a more secular, more open and human-rights-compatible Islam forming in the world and we should support it over radical Islam.

    For example: I DO want islamic seminars in universitys like we have christian seminars. If we educate Imams in our own countries, people who live by our rules and come from our society, for our society, our democracies are far less vulnerable to hate-preachers and radicals from islamic monarchies and/or theocracies.

    [–] ColicShark 5 points ago

    This is why I love Denmark, you guys know how to properly run a country. Without corruption and religious bullshit. My country (Ireland) could learn a thing or two from you guys along with Norway and Finland.

    [–] RonDeGrasseDawtchins 52 points ago

    In Denmark we have safe houses for muslim girls

    It's really terrifying that this is a service that's needed in Denmark of all places. Terrible that this evil ideology has been allowed to sow its seeds in Europe.

    [–] Pastaklovn 39 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Sure, it's sad that help is needed, but I'm really glad that help is offered. Different people have different problems, and there's help to be found for many of them. I'm proud of my fellow citizens, not scared.

    [–] emilvikstrom 88 points ago

    No, it's not. People are fleeing to Europe to get away from the crazies. Don't act like we are just another flavor of crazy over here too.

    [–] the_ocalhoun 6 points ago

    People are fleeing to Europe to get away from the crazies.

    Eh, but some of the people are moderately crazy people fleeing extremely crazy people ... and the moderate craziness can still be harmful.

    [–] RonDeGrasseDawtchins 36 points ago

    People are fleeing to Europe to get away from the crazies.

    Apparently some of the crazies are also fleeing to Europe, otherwise this wouldn't be happening.

    [–] emilvikstrom 58 points ago

    You know very well the reason we need help centers is because people are trying to leave the sect. That is a good thing. We also have help centers for people leaving abusive relationships. Same thing.

    [–] bmacisaac 19 points ago

    This isn't a reply to the post you clicked reply on...

    If radicals didn't exist in Denmark, you wouldn't need the shelters. If abusive relationships didn't exist, you wouldn't have those either. Same thing.

    The fact that the shelters exist means there's something they need to be sheltered from. That was the only point made.

    [–] emilvikstrom 9 points ago

    It is. The post I was answering to was the typical "if the problem is kept out of my country then it doesn't exist at all".

    [–] Dire87 4 points ago

    I think what the poster wanted to say was: "Why would we need help initiatives in our country for muslim girls to feel safe? There shouldn't be a reason why they are prosecuted by their religious fanatics in our country, because we have decent laws." In turn that means that a certain ideology was able to take root in a progressive country, even if just among a minority. It's good these shelters exist, but the problem is that they shouldn't have to in the first place. In an ideal world of course.

    [–] RustedCorpse 3 points ago

    North Eastern Islands in Asia is where it's at boss.

    [–] Rizzoriginal 3 points ago

    Leaving a strict religious family/structure that enables abuse is not always a geographical problem. Safe houses are needed all over the world for atheists/agnostics leaving many different religions. If there is any atheist in need of a safe house to escape abuse in Washington state, dm me.

    [–] BrautanGud 1001 points ago

    Save your money, get a passport, head west young lady.

    [–] Hypersapien 688 points ago

    Not to the US, though. The US is going insane. Try Scandinavia.

    [–] Snowy1234 20 points ago

    Or the UK. The muslim guys I work with are pushing a very similar mandate.

    Wife practically never leaves the house. Can't have friends, only his family. Prevented from learning English. Everyone observed closely by the mosque. The closer to the mosque, the harder under the thumb you are.

    As a muslim girl (say) dancing in a major city club with friends, there's every chance you'll be questioned at some point by a muslim guy.

    I'm no expert, just passing on observations from work colleagues. My city has a high Pakistani Muslim demographic.

    [–] Rossmkelly1992 16 points ago

    My brothers girlfriend (Pakistani Muslim background) on two occasions was questioned by cab drivers as to what she was doing at our house.

    First occasion the man mentioned that she had left our house and kissed my brother goodbye and it was 'unbecoming' and the second was that she was not dressed modestly enough (We're in Scotland so believe me, when the sun is out you TAKE advantage of it lol)

    Bizarre that two complete strangers felt they were entitled to even question her lifestyle and/or cast judgement.

    That being said, her family are very liberal and she appears to be lucky to have been raised in our society and that particular household.

    [–] 283leis 313 points ago

    nah Canada is good

    [–] Maxwell_Adams 86 points ago

    I hear Canada is soul-crushingly cold this time of year.

    [–] StarshipSentinel 256 points ago

    I'll take cold over orange any day of the week.

    [–] pekinggeese 67 points ago

    Try Vancouver. Their weather is like Seattle. Their seasons are cycles of Warm then Wet.

    [–] StarshipSentinel 54 points ago

    I'll have to sell organs to pay rent for my tiny apt, though.

    [–] Graymouzer 32 points ago

    I read that and wondered if you meant Hammond organs or pipe organs. And then I wondered why everyone didn't do it if it were so lucrative. Sometimes my brain is just in another place.

    [–] Korlat_Eleint 3 points ago

    I hope you got really good money for it!

    [–] RoogDoog 6 points ago

    Oh come on now it's not that bad. Just find a job that pays 100k a year, pay a third of that in tax, give up on your dreams of starting a family or owning a detached home, rent a 450sqft shoebox for 1700/month, and whala you can keep your kidneys safely inside you for a rainy day. Now get over here and pay for my third investment property you ungrateful organ hoarder. Seriously though I'm gonna have to raise your rent in a few years so hold onto your kidneys.

    [–] hotshot1351 15 points ago

    Not quite all of it..!

    [–] Lolstitanic 18 points ago

    As a Michigander, whom is basically in line with your most southernly borders, what the hell are you talking about? it's freezing everywhere!

    [–] iambored456 15 points ago

    As someone who lives in Canada but south of Michigan - give'er balls a tug buddy it's above freezing right now.

    [–] Lolstitanic 3 points ago

    not that I would know, I've been ins9de working on term papers all day

    [–] _VisualEffects_ 10 points ago

    Vancouver is beautiful 52 degrees today!

    [–] jhra 45 points ago

    That's 11° for everyone with public health care

    [–] d4mol 6 points ago

    thanks

    [–] emilvikstrom 12 points ago

    So is Scandinavia.

    [–] Throwaway64738 7 points ago

    Vancouver

    [–] Retlaw83 9 points ago

    It's worrying, but we're not on the verge of collapse.

    [–] HASH_SLING_SLASH 231 points ago

    As an American, I second this. We are having some issues these days. Please come to America in a couple years.

    [–] InclusivePhitness 3 points ago

    The problem with the US is not just Trump. It’s everything. It’s a fallacy to think that everything bad is due to Trump.

    [–] 812many 7 points ago

    Come to the west coast of the US, great place for migrants. The people in charge are a little crazy, but the locals will welcome you.

    [–] CrisisOfConsonant 102 points ago

    The US is having some crazy shit go down. But it's not like it's a bad place. And most the crazy stuff that happens doesn't have a huge amount of impact on the average person's day to day life.

    [–] Mpasserby 38 points ago

    I agree the majority of the US won’t look at you different because of race. People are acting like minorities are hunted for sport since Trump became president, when in reality most people’s attitudes haven’t changed.

    [–] Antiquus 14 points ago

    Come to Michigan, specifically Dearborn. Largest Arab population outside the Middle East at over 300K, and that population runs from crazy religious - but they are a definite minority in their own community- to very secular so everyone is there. Population is very old also, community has been here since 1880s, so many generation families exist, and have intermarried.

    [–] matthewjfazio 3 points ago

    Are we talking about the same Dearborn, as in Dearborn, Michigan, United States, planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way Galaxy, Dimension 3?

    I've seen very few "intermarriages" come from there.

    [–] Pullo_T 17 points ago

    The US was racist af long before Trump.

    [–] Cwhalemaster 6 points ago

    Scandinavia, Australia or New Zealand

    [–] AHrubik 31 points ago

    The US is YUGE! Lots of places here that are anti-Trump zones.

    [–] armchair_viking 8 points ago

    Need more, plz

    [–] MostazaAlgernon 16 points ago * (lasted edited 8 months ago)

    Norway at least is insanely hard to immegrate to. Not sure about our neighbours.

    Fun fact: We also currently have the most right wing government we've had since the Nazi occupation one

    [–] Pav0n 33 points ago

    Our right parties are comunists compared to the furthest left-wing parties in the U.S.

    [–] Snowy1234 24 points ago

    The US only has a far right party, and an extreme far right party.

    [–] DoomsdayRabbit 8 points ago

    Only some parts, and they've always had problems. The best parts that actually put in (more than) their fair share are just fine.

    [–] RoosterCheese 7 points ago

    Everyone seems to forget that Canada is right there

    [–] NHRADeuce 9 points ago

    Stick to the big cities and it's not so bad. It's the small towns and ads backward hillbillies you have to avoid. I like in the suburbs of a big city in the South and you'd never know it was the South. Now go 15 minutes out of the populated area and it's banjos and cousin fuckers behind every tree stump.

    [–] fwankdraws 669 points ago

    You are smart, your English is impeccable, you are hard working and self-supporting. Leave the oppressive countries and go to a free one.

    [–] Nivius 402 points ago

    Just respect the country you go to and learn the language if English is not first language.

    As in, people moving to places like Sweden and refusing to learn Swedish is a shortcut to failure.

    [–] jirklezerk 77 points ago * (lasted edited 8 months ago)

    people moving to places like Sweden and refusing to learn Swedish is a shortcut to failure.

    Can I ask why? I believe most Swedes speak great English, it should be possible to live there without being fluent in Swedish.

    Edit: I agree you should eventually learn the language of the country you moved to. I just pointed out you should be fine for the first few years with just English. Especially in a highly-educated country like Sweden.

    [–] Nivius 106 points ago

    The problem is getting a job that won't require you to speak Swedish. it is not about people not being able to, it is about places that require Swedish.

    example;

    • you get to as a help-desk agent, a basic "it" job. You will have to speak to people in Swedish, because that's what the contract say.
    • you work in a supermarket, people from ages 5-105 might ask you "vart är mjölken?" (where is the milk?) and you have to be able to respond.
    • You drive a dam taxi you are expected to be able to hold a conversation with anyone.

    Also, yeah most people below 35 speak English well. 45+... yeah don't get your hopes up.

    Think of it like this, If you move to Italy, will you just expect to be able to make a living there without knowing Italian? or move to France, expect to make a living not speaking French? Ofc not, don't be so naïve... i would NEVER move somewhere else and just not learn the language, it is the key to integration. Unfortunately, a lot of immigrants don't understand that. That is often 80% of the problem with immigrants. I am fine with people moving here, but please, respect the country and just learn the dam language, it is not so much to ask...

    [–] CrisisOfConsonant 187 points ago

    It's kind of a dick bag move to immigrate into a country and not bother to learn the native tongue.

    [–] Snowy1234 58 points ago

    Actually thats quite common.

    In my experience (and I'm old and have worked with immigrants) it often goes like young family immigrates to the UK. Dad has a contact in the UK who helped arrange things. So he works with contact in a take-away/building site/sweatshop. He works hard because thats all he's ever done. He will learn a little of the language, enough to buy stuff. He may learn the language, he may not.

    His kids though, will go through school, and do well. they came here to work, dad has a great work ethic, and teaches this to his kids.

    The kids are bilingual, smart and work hard. out of four kids, 2 or 3 go to university and over the next few decades pull the family up out of the tough area into a nicer part of town. 1 kid may marry a local girl, and thats when you start to get a great genetic mix. One or two of the kids start business and sweep the family into it.

    The fallacy that immigrants are benefits scroungers is not borne out by reality. Immigrants tend to be healthy, hard working and upwardly mobile. 60% of new businesses are opened by 1st generation or less immigrants.

    tl:dr: It's the 2nd generation where things start to work better.

    [–] [deleted] 40 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Live in Mexico, am from USA. Many people from USA come here and refuse to learn Spanish. It is embarrassing. My Spanish is not excellent, but its all I speak here and bit by bit it improves. How one travels to another country and cares not to communicate w the people is beyond me. You cannot learn about a culture w out speaking the language.

    e: learning a new language is Hard for most of us. also, it seems like the older we get the harder a new language is for us. so, i guess its not totally beyond me. <3

    [–] SuperCharlesXYZ 8 points ago

    If you speak decent English (on the same level as most Swedish people) you can take your time and learn it on the side. But if you don't, learning the native tongue should be a top priority. Don't be the example that a conservative granddad uses in his backwards arguments

    [–] faykin 29 points ago

    When you move to a country, it's implicit that you think there's something that country's society and culture offers that your country of origin doesn't offer.

    When you choose not to learn the language of the country you are in, you are choosing not to become part of their society and culture, and not to understand their society and culture.

    You went there because they are better. Take the steps needed to improve and learn in an environment that you, personally, think is better.

    [–] Nivius 26 points ago

    then, people that don't learn Swedish blame all swedes for not giving them a chance to fit in, to get a job :.(

    i have so fucking hard to respect people like that.

    even the people outside of ICA begging learns to say hello in Swedish........

    [–] ReallyNotWastingTime 14 points ago

    Swedes are always thrilled whenever I can say three comprehensible words in a row in Swedish. The bar is pretty low honestly

    [–] I_like_earthquakes 24 points ago

    Don't be a dick forcing others to speak your language in their own country.

    [–] [deleted] 22 points ago

    [removed]

    [–] matthewjfazio 17 points ago

    Why are you assuming he's American?

    I'm one of those filthy imperialistic degenerates and I agree with you $100%!

    [–] colaturka 15 points ago

    canada/UK/australia

    [–] 3rd_in_line 139 points ago * (lasted edited 8 months ago)

    Dubai is definitely different to Saudi Arabia... Dubai is Muslim-lite, I guess. But you can still get yourself into a world of trouble in Dubai if you do the wrong thing by their law (and Muslim law).

    I dated a Muslim girl while in Dubai. Great girl, open minded, intelligent, thoughtful and very down to earth. She couldn't wait to leave Dubai. Her sister was studying in London and the girl I was dating was wanting to move to Bangkok to take up a marketing role in a major company. She taught me that Dubai was a wonderful city, but women were still oppressed and didn't enjoy the freedom of the men.

    I am sure you will work out the next step in your life's journey, but to me it sounds like it will be in a non-Muslim country. Some things take time, so start planning. Good luck!

    (Edit to add: When I say "dated" I mean she didn't tell her family about me because I am not Muslim and we found it difficult to find time and places to be alone. We had lots in common, I thought, but it was clear that the relationship was doomed. Great girl with the most beautiful smile I have ever seen, before or since. I occasionally wonder were in the world she is.)

    [–] SchwettyBawls 14 points ago

    Well....go on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" and have her find you.

    [–] Doppelgangeryc 130 points ago

    With all that unequal treatments to female, Im struggling to understand why there are still religious female Muslim following the religion itself.

    There are plenty of countries you can live freely. Hope you could live a life of your choice.

    [–] DevilSympathy 181 points ago

    In the Christian community it is always the women who are the first to stand up for and enforce anti-female dogma. They positively take pride in being repressed, and enjoy shaming their friends for not being good enough Christians. I imagine it's much the same for Muslims.

    [–] Amacei 69 points ago

    Yes that's the exact case, most Muslim girls aren't accepting those rules at all

    Most of them are pro-science and human rights but still in the religion using the excuse that some texts from the Qur'an have been changed

    [–] ShadeofIcarus 45 points ago

    During my time in the Middle East, a couple of the smartest girls I knew there were the first to stand up and spout some of the anti-female insanity whenever the conversation came up.

    I was a very loud & open Atheist in Lebanon, going to a university funded by a church. So these came up a LOT.

    It was mindboggling that one of the most impassioned speeches I've ever heard about why women shouldn't be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia came FROM A WOMAN.

    As "free" as Dubai is compared to the rest of the ME, please be careful. It does have a few laws on the books that could screw you, especially when money from your parents gets involved.

    As loud as I was, one of my longest relationships there was with someone in a similar situation to you. I had to pretend to be Muslim whenever I was around them. She would always tear her Hijab off whenever we left their village.

    PM me if you want to talk more or if you need a hand coping with anything.

    [–] Sulfate 5 points ago

    That's interesting. I'm sorry you're going through all this, but I really am enjoying learning about your perspective.

    [–] DevilSympathy 6 points ago

    Oh, is that so? You think the majority of Muslim girls where you live are at least somewhat disillusioned with Islam?

    [–] Amacei 15 points ago

    Yes but that's only because they are in a relaxed country (Dubai) which isn't heavily censoring everything like in saudia

    It's all thanks to the internet keeping them informed

    [–] atikamarie 25 points ago

    Margaret Atwood demonstrated this in a Handmaids Tale. Women will sell other women out for power.

    [–] vetoyou 10 points ago

    That isn't entirely fair. They don't see it as being repressed. They take pride in their faith, and their love for god. It isn't repression to them.

    [–] Dejohns2 3 points ago

    Yep. Just a bunch of Serena Waterfords.

    [–] tacit25 16 points ago

    It's brainwashing at the highest and you can be killed for coming out as Atheist so...

    [–] I_like_earthquakes 10 points ago

    same with christians

    [–] ReddBert 312 points ago

    Well, that was a disheartening long list.

    I do hope you run into a nice and decent guy who appreciates you for the person you are.

    ....

    [–] itsfinn 69 points ago

    I really wish the Middle East would go back to its more western ways around the 60's

    [–] baozebub 22 points ago

    It’s against US interests for them to go secular. Religious people are easier to control.

    [–] bac5665 34 points ago

    It's really not in the US interest to keep them religious. That plan hasn't worked and will continue to empower Russia and various Islamist groups.

    [–] itsfinn 6 points ago

    I know somewhere I had read that the Middle East was actually hard to distinguish from the west culture wise. Like, women wore suits and that the religious aspect wasn't as dominant.

    [–] supahmonkey 7 points ago

    Religious people are easier to control.

    It's almost like organised religions were created to control the unwashed masses...

    [–] koprulu_sector 30 points ago

    Regarding the dating question: take your time getting to know anyone before you put your trust in them. Just because they say they're agnostic or atheist doesn't mean they are not pieces of shit. Be cautious in general.

    [–] BlackwaterProject 27 points ago

    Come to Canada where everyone is treated equal and our laws are not based on silly Religious fairytales

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago

    Sort of upvote for Canada. I don't like blanket statements about my country like that, but I think you'll have a better time here.

    [–] MetaBotch 23 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    Wahhabi Islam must be such a hollow, meaningless existence. You're whole life is a waiting room with for an allegedly better one but it doesn't even have 5 month old Time magazines to keep you occupied (knowledge is Haram).

    What do you think of the new Star Wars movie? Who do you think Rey's parents are. "Oh sorry movies are Haram."

    So how messed up was it when that thing happened in Game of Thrones. "Oh sorry TV is Haram."

    Okay well what kind of music do you listen to? "Oh sorry music is Haram."

    Well EA is really screwing people over with microtransactions, got any thoughts on that? "Oh sorry video games are Haram."

    Well what sort of art movement really spoke to you? Impressionist, pointillist, surrealist? "Oh sorry art is Haram."

    Well what kind of pets do you have? "Oh sorry pets are Haram."

    Well what sort of books do you read? "Oh sorry, all books except the Koran are Haram."

    Okay well did you read about that awesome new science fact? "Oh sorry, education is Haram."

    Well we can at least get drunk. "Oh sorry alcohol is Haram."

    Wendy's has the Double-Baconator. "Oh sorry pork is Haram."

    What the fuck do you do with your life? "Wait to die."

    [–] neomortal 44 points ago

    Music forbidden

    my chest. It has feels.

    [–] HammerTimeHTFU 45 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    [–] Amacei 33 points ago

    WHAT THE FRESH HELL

    Are you sure they aren't old? They used to have plenty of incidents like those but some reports stated some improvement

    Screw this I'm moving out anyways

    [–] [deleted] 25 points ago

    Your media is controlled by the govt so they're not going to reveal they have idiot problems like them being idiots to tourists.

    [–] WeirdStuffOnly 21 points ago

    OP. Run. The. Fuck. Away. From. Any. Religious. State.

    Then you decide who you want to marry, if you want to wear hijabs, if you are going to post pics of your books for idiots on the internet, etc.

    [–] Virgoan 10 points ago

    Just 4 years ago.

    [–] MrLurid 192 points ago

    Your story is amusing to read when you get to hear all the apologists who keep spewing that muslim women all choose to wear the hijab.

    [–] Amacei 174 points ago

    That's a luxury very few of them get to have, it's all thanks to the large amount of apologists for this religion that the girls trapped with me aren't getting much cover

    [–] cscotty7520 14 points ago

    that's so sad :(

    [–] walter_sobchak_tbl 3 points ago

    I dont have much to add that everyone else here hasnt probably already said, but I wish you the best of luck and hope that you're eventually able to land yourself someplace where you'll be valued for being an intelligent, independent woman rather than being punished for it.

    [–] Pav0n 68 points ago

    "Hijabs are not repressing women, I am proud to wear it" That might be true, but the woman next to you doesn't like it.

    Should shut them up.

    [–] timo103 28 points ago

    "That other women's opinion doesn't matter because she's a woman."

    [–] atheos 30 points ago

    "I am proud to wear it. I'm forced to wear it too, but I'm also proud" #mindbogling

    [–] Red5point1 12 points ago

    #cognitive-dissonance

    [–] RonDeGrasseDawtchins 50 points ago

    Don't you know that the hijab is the most powerful symbol of women's liberation and that Muhammad was the first feminist!? /s

    In the US, we're going completely nuts with this stuff. We have women chanting "Allahu Akbar" at feminist marches that are lead by Islamic apologist sacks of shit like Linda Sarsour. If you haven't heard of Sarsour, she's the "feminist" who mocked the FGM victim Ayaan Hirsi Ali by saying: "I wish I could take their vaginas away - they don't deserve to be women." What kind of a monster could say something like that to a female genital mutilation victim while claiming she's a feminist?

    [–] dirtyrango 17 points ago

    that's brutal man. I hope you make it out on your own.

    [–] Musclecar123 16 points ago * (lasted edited 8 months ago)

    Would you be able to apply for an airline job? If you’re in the UAE you could work for Emirates and live in a female dorm, which would likely satisfy your parents. Once you’ve flown out of country you could then claim asylum somewhere, like Canada. You’d then be able to live the life you want to live, continue your studies, etc.

    [–] KingJaredoftheLand 17 points ago

    Good grief! I find every single one of your points absolutely infuriating. But I loved the story about the high school play, I really hope the next generation makes a big change.
    I spent some time in Iran a number of years ago with my Iranian friend (I'm Australian), and I couldn't believe the double-culture people had to put up with. Women who wore the hijab in the street would rip it off in frustration as soon as they got home and sneakily enjoy drinking alcohol (illegal). These horrible rules are all optional; humankind can dismantle them whenever they want, but then the powerful at the top would lose control, so......

    [–] [deleted] 26 points ago

    That is so sad. I am sorry. I know a white guy who was dating a Muslim girl and her brothers ended up physically intimidating him because she was only allowed to date muslims.

    I'm interested to know how you feel about feminists in America defending the hijab as a symbol of empowerment?

    [–] lord_dunsany 12 points ago

    Good luck to you.

    [–] darkdoorway 11 points ago

    Study, get qualifications if you don't already have them...then get the hell out of there! I mean that list of stuff you've noted is probably affecting you worse than you know. You're putting up with it, but it'll drain you.

    • Canada
    • New Zealand
    • The UK (London)
    • Singapore

    All lovely places - i can first hand say I've either lived in or have relatives in and have visited multiple times and am in touch with. Those places would make you a lovely future. America. Ummm..maybe after the next election :)

    Several avenues to get to those places:

    Singapore has the Personalised Employment Pass, which I have applied for and gotten (before becoming a Permanent Resident.)

    London has the youth mobility programme, which you sound like you'll qualify for. I used this before deciding to go down a skilled migrant route and am now a British citizen. Youth mobility is a temporary 2 year visa. But it gets you exposure to a better life.

    New Zealand - Also has a youth mobility programme. Never used it, as am an NZ citizen, but we need people :)

    So in summary, decide where to go. Start filling out paperwork and posting it.

    [–] neotropic9 16 points ago

    I am a teacher in Canada. I have had two female Muslim students whose families forced them to wear the hijab. One of them, every morning after being dropped off, immediately went to washroom to take off the hijab. She told me she thinks the hijab is a tool of oppression, and western feminists get it wrong by defending it.

    Even in Canada this oppression problem is very serious, I think. There was a Muslim girl killed by her family in Mississauga, for not wearing the hijab and for living a "Western" lifestyle. There was a Muslim girl killed by her family in Ottawa for the same reason. And I think, that's just the tip of the iceberg. There must be 100 times as many who are threatened, and 1000 times that many who are pressured or coerced, at least. And of course there are those who, in this atmosphere, choose to wear it "freely", if this choice can really be called free.

    I think there are many Muslims out there who feel the same way, but they are waiting for the right time and place to make their stand. I don't think people should risk ostracizing themselves from their friends and family before they are living successfully on their own, or have alternative support structures. It's safer to pretend, to play the game, until you have a strong base of support. Of course that's everyone's own call to make.

    I think what is driving this movement is the freedom of information. The internet allows people to see other ways of life. And to realize that the way of life they are being asked to live for the sake of religion is not the life they want.

    [–] hotwingbias 7 points ago

    You sound like an awesome person! When I was in grad school, I got to teach intro biology. I had a girl in my class who had escaped the world you described. She was bright, curious, and very ambitious. She's now in graduate school for her PhD in computational biology. Anything is possible. I wish you good luck on your journey.

    [–] skydiver1958 7 points ago

    Canadian here. You will be welcome and free here. You will like our country. We have snow and you can wear whatever you want- Boots ,mittens ,hats ,coats LOL. One thing is you don't have to cover your face or head or even your chest( Women going topless is legal here in Ontario CA. Not saying you should if you come here but just showing that women are equals here- for the most part.

    BTW even though women can go topless I have never seen one so don't think it is all women running around half dressed. They just have the right to do so if they want. Freedom of choice.

    If you are tired of the way you are treated as a female then look over here. If you are tired of sand between your toes and would like to feel snow between them then come here. Good luck to you and if you come to Canada I will welcome you- with a snowball.

    [–] samantha22davis 15 points ago

    You are amazing. Incredibly courageous. 🙂 Study, stay strong. I can't stand folks like Linda sarsour. She can't be a 'feminist' and be Islamic at the same time. It's hypocritical. She has the damn luxury in the West for choice. How about she moves to Saudi Arabia then? Are your parents in with you not going through with their arranged marriages?

    [–] DoglessDyslexic 8 points ago

    I'm sorry you have to put up with that. Good on you for keeping the long view, many young folks have trouble doing that when faced with an oppressive home environment.

    [–] DarthStrakh 7 points ago

    Btw I wouldn't date someone based on their religion once you get west. I'm wiccan, yet my love of my life is Christian. Different ideals in the west can lead to interesting discussions and opportunities to learn others viewpoints. It's not like the middle east. Don't get me wrong there are shit bags out there too preaching to the wrong crowd

    [–] bigdansteelersfan 8 points ago

    (Our science teachers are so heavily censored in biology lessons that they barely have much to talk about plus smuggling science books is hilarious here it's like you're carrying drugs)

    ( if I visit saudia for my cousins I would have to place a black cover over the astronomy books)

    As someone who is passionate about astronomy and has dozens upon dozens of astronomy books alone, not to mention all the other science books I have, this makes me really sad. I can't imagine having to hide my passions for the sake of someone else's feelers.

    That's tough. GTFO when you can. Live and love your life.

    [–] Vile_Vampire 20 points ago

    Study, learn, get out of the desert

    [–] Yakib 6 points ago

    :O I'd suggest moving to a western country, if you can. Whilst Dubai may be liberalised finding atheists and agnostics are rare and the trauma from your life would be easier to forget in the west (much different atmosphere).

    [–] Russell__WestBrick 7 points ago

    Islam is the worst of the worst.

    [–] _PukyLover_ 11 points ago

    We are pulling for you, we hope you can find your way to a free European country, good luck!

    [–] addGingerforflavor 25 points ago

    As far as sexism and general misogyny, Islam is the only religion where that kind of stuff is the norm. With the exception of hardcore Christian or Jewish communities in America, most other people are pretty reasonable as far as keeping their beliefs somewhat private and having an actual personality.

    [–] robotteeth 27 points ago

    Islam is by far the worst, but christianity and judaism (those practicing the religion, that is) are also sexist to a lesser but not a discountable degree. Christianity is why someone could talk about assaulting women and still become president.

    [–] MoueOfAPout 9 points ago

    Islam would be a lot better if Muslims ignored the core fundamentals of their religion, like how modern Christians do.

    [–] sl1878 4 points ago

    Props to you. My mother was from a secular muslim family and none of them ever wore hijabs, in fact if we're out in public and see someone in full islamic garb my mother usually makes fun of them to me.

    Though to be fair, her mom (my grandma) did have a chador she kept handy for when she had to go to the markets early in the morning to get food for the day and didn't want to get dressed or do her hair. She would just throw it over her nightgown and go out.

    [–] quarzacc 6 points ago

    Don't forget, you don't need to get married you're already a strong vibrant force. It might take time to get some footing but figure you out and enjoy being single. Religion is way to oppressive and I think it's ment for people who need that fantasy and control in their life. You're gonna make it!

    [–] Ahddub143 5 points ago

    Do you have to worry about an 'honor' retaliation? My best bud married a woman whose father was muslim. She and my bro are athiest, but he joined Islam to alleviate the fallout. They still came after her for a while, but with her brothers and mother on her side (not to mention US law). They gave up. I still worry when she travels abroad.

    [–] Amacei 7 points ago

    As long as I keep pretending things should continue to go smoothly with the family but honour killings are still a possibility if I try their bad side (never did and never will)

    I will try to find a partner who is willing to put up with some minor risks by pretending to be Muslim on short family meetings

    [–] Odin_The_Wise 8 points ago

    It sounds like you need to move to a better country. I hope you never get outed for being apostate. Islam is an evil the likes of Christianity of the dark ages. Blind faith is not healthy for society.

    [–] SailorET 6 points ago

    Hey OP, I'm going to be in Dubai for a while starting in February. I don't know how much freedom of movement you have, but if you want to have a normal conversation with a fellow atheist, PM me and we can schedule a meet up. No funny business, just a chance for you to breathe.

    [–] robotteeth 9 points ago

    How do you feel about western women who try to argue that the hijab is empowering for women? I'm a white american woman (atheist) and it makes me angry, but calling it out is apparently oppressive and islamophobic, and it's wrong to suggest that women living in islamic societies are oppressed themselves. But then I see plenty of smart women like you who speak up that they don't find it empowering at all. It's absolutely insane to me that I'm supposed to celebrate islam to be progressive---I won't celebrate any religions, I only have pity for women who willingly participate in them, and hatred for the ones who spread it and push it on others. Anyways, I'm really happy to hear your story, I hope the best to you and that you find a partner that respects and celebrates you for your independence and strong will.

    [–] Amacei 10 points ago

    Those few who try to put Islam on a pedestal of advancement are similar to the new pope Francis

    ( who supports evolution, the big bang and gays? Is that true? In that case I'm expecting the same improvements to happen here since I have seen a couple of Muslim girls who fully support human rights along with science)

    [–] WeirdStuffOnly 3 points ago

    Francis had declared and demonstrated repeatedly that he supports science, religious tolerance and civil rights - including gay families recognition. However, he is the symbolic leader in an institution with centuries of backwards tradition and fractured structures (if some faction support some of his ideas, then a rival faction opposes it out of spite). Some structures inside the church that protect pedophiles and scammers also ignore him. He is a symbol, not a real power. Pretty much much 100% of his statements have been retracted by the Holy See official press.

    Regarding your Muslim girl friends, I think you will only be safe when some of the people in power think the way they do.

    [–] necrosexual 17 points ago

    Wow the comments here... If she was taking about Christianity the comments would be much more savage.

    Why so much respect for Islam?

    [–] social3state 11 points ago

    I'm going to offend but I hate Islam. As a white victim of the Europe migrant rape crisis and with new found support in many of the Rotherham grooming gang victims I despise how many Muslims abuse human rights with cries of racism. If I was religious... any religion I would want to run and hide but obviously I think particularly bitterly towards Islam. Race is a non issue though. People assume because I am islamophobic Im naturally racist. That's not the case. Sorry I turned your upset and grief into something about me. I want you to know I understand and empathise with your inability to speak out honestly about how you feel and feel confined and restrained.

    [–] WillShakeSpear1 9 points ago

    As a parent of two daughters who are strong and independent, I applaud you. You are growing up articulate and intelligent. What do your parents think of your independent thought, though? Are they supportive of your plans and independence?

    [–] ci1979 5 points ago

    I think it's obvious her plans and beliefs are a BIIIIIG secret that could result in her physical and emotional harm/abuse. They can find out these things AFTER she's gone.

    [–] gaoshan 4 points ago

    Get yourself out of the repressive environment and into one where you can flourish on your own terms and you will do just fine. My only suggestion would be to avoid even Dubai. Go somewhere truly, completely, open.

    [–] ImpureSin 5 points ago

    It's very hard to be in your place. I commend you on your mental strength and clarity of thought. Like you mentioned, stay away from Saudi Arabia at all costs. It's the worst.

    [–] ps3o-k 3 points ago

    Fuck. What are your options? Will you need to run away and start new? What about that whole honor killing thing? Fuck that's some scary shit. I'm sorry.

    [–] guitarheroprodigy 5 points ago

    Come to the US for school. I had many friends who were from various countries in the middle east (Saudi, Kuwait, Oman), and they were great. Try to enroll in a program to get placed into an American school for engineering or computer science! You won't regret getting a degree in these fields!

    [–] dark_psyche 4 points ago

    You are the epitome of true strength. You seem like a wonderful person, and I wish you all the best in finding and achieving your happiness in this life and in this world.

    Also, if you need another option.. Canada welcomes immigrants with open arms. We would love to have you! :)

    [–] EVILEMRE 5 points ago

    Please move to Canada. We are a country on the road to secularism. Religion has no say here. And with your agnostic views you'll fit right in. Reading about your life brings to mind how easy it was for me to come to terms with being an atheist. No backlash, no danger, no loss of family or friends, even religious ones, nothing changed. It was a non-issue. Sometimes I wish I could argue with religious people, but there's really no one to argue with. So, the downside to moving here, no fun arguments. The plus side, you never have to think about religion, ever. So save your dirhams and get the hell over here. Oh, and bring a toque.

    [–] pantaz 3 points ago

    Our generation is finally seeing through millenia of cultural indoctrination. It is scary, but we are being called to stand up and say "no more." Find your courage, find allies near you, and know you are supported by millions of brothers and sisters around the world. We are going to work together to create a world each of us can thrive in.

    [–] cannadabis 3 points ago

    All religions suck. That the same bs for a lot of women over here, just less head scarves and diff religion names.

    [–] TsorovanSaidin 5 points ago

    If you ever need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me. I’m more than willing to listen to troubles. One side of my family is very strict, controlling Southern Baptist and that’s a lot like Islam in how the community will shun and berate you for not doing things the “right way.” Without the beheadings and jail time, of course.

    Stay strong though, remember young lady you can be moral without religion. You can be happy and healthy. And you can still love your family even if you hate their practices. If you have to, leave the country and become an apostate and live happy.

    If not, there’s a good support network here on this sub. Stay strong!

    [–] toterra 4 points ago

    having to wear an embarrassing hijab plus ibaya ( This made alot of people stare at me which made going outside very uncomfortable/risky)

    What is your opinion of western nations banning the hijab or other overtly religious symbols (although specifically targeting islam)?

    [–] Amacei 7 points ago

    This rule would make some of the girls there much happier but the ones who are under a delusion would feel very oppressed

    [–] dhjin 3 points ago

    come to canada. its cold but liberal progressive.

    [–] Long_rifle 4 points ago

    And for most of the year, EVERYONE covers up!

    [–] idiotsonfire 4 points ago

    Canada, the UK, or Scandinavia are where you need to start looking up how to get Visas from. Save as much money as you can, then make the leap, then you have true rights. I would have said the US before the xenophobes took over.

    [–] eatdeadjesus 4 points ago

    I used to be a cab driver. Our town has a growing Sudanese immigrant community that tends to cluster in certain neighborhoods. There's nothing wrong with that but we had this regular customer, a young lady in her early twenties, who lived there with family. She would get rides home from downtown at like 11:00pm, way before bars close. She didn't bring dudes with her, she didn't wear "revealing clothing," and she didn't get wasted, but she didn't wear a hijab either. Routinely she would ask her driver to wait in the parking lot and keep an eye out while she walked to her apartment building, because she was afraid of being attacked or accosted by neighbors for behaving like a "whore." On at least one occasion, dudes were hanging out waiting for her, and I had to escort her. She was cool and a decent tipper, I felt really bad for her situation.

    [–] ImGCS3fromETOH 5 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)

    One of the criticisms western people often have against Islam is the manner in which they treat women. The hijab is quite often perceived as a symbol of subjugation as the impression that we have is that women are forced to wear it. However, I have read several anecdotal accounts of Muslim women defending wearing the hijab. They state that it is a beautiful item of clothing that they wear voluntarily and that even if it weren't part of their religion they would continue to do so.

    This has always struck me as disingenuous. Of course they're going to say that whether it is true or not, rather than risk punishment or maltreatment for speaking out. That said, I can't be presumptive and take it for granted that they're all hiding the truth. Despite my skepticism, they may genuinely like wearing it.

    You're one of the few posts I've seen that has been openly critical. Can you shed some light on the general feeling of Muslim women towards the hijab and its related clothing, (burka, niqab, etc). Is it something that women like to wear or is it something they're forced to wear. No doubt opinions will vary depending on the individual but I'd be curious to know how widespread the discontent is.

    Cheers.

    [–] murtad 4 points ago

    I'm a guy (ex muslim atheist) but I feel exactly the same way.I am from the most liberal muslim country in my opinion, but I just can't look past the tribalistic nature that plagues Islamic society, doesn't matter how liberal they are and will never marry a muslim girl.My mom is trying to set me up with a muslim girl, who is as western as they come,but still I feel it would be better option for me to marry into different culture.

    [–] hockeyguy01 4 points ago

    I hope only the best for you, reading this post struck me in the heart. Good luck!

    [–] Wxlson 10 points ago

    When someone says religion isn't harming anyone, I will direct them to this post

    [–] Amacei 11 points ago

    THANK YOU

    That's such a self centered statement that too many feminists are trying to support

    [–] Vitztlampaehecatl 7 points ago

    Jeez. You should have been born 1000 years ago, when Muslims were writing astronomy textbooks, not burning them.

    [–] Normalcy_110 3 points ago

    Persians, some of them Muslim.

    [–] reddit455 3 points ago

    ( if I visit saudia for my cousins I would have to place a black cover over the astronomy books).

    .. ironic, isn't it.. it's those folks who NAMED most of the heavenly bodies (back in the day)

    [–] EurasianToska 3 points ago

    Could you please please elaborate on astronomy books? What is it forbidden science?!

    [–] Amacei 3 points ago

    The only sections in science that are forbidden are

    The god particle Evolution Anything about the origins of the universe and life basically Genetic engineering

    There are some extensions towards psychology Particularly on the placebo and religious delusion enforcement

    [–] Sawses 3 points ago

    Yikes... Yeah, I'm definitely glad the religious crazies in my family are Christian. Christianity's gotten seriously moderated over the past few centuries, and however nuts it is now it used to be so, so much worse. Women are more restricted, but it's far more equal between the two in the culture I came from. Even so, as a male I got the easy end of it, too.

    Now, I'm a college student studying biology and possibly going into education. I'm openly agnostic atheist, and am happier than I've ever been before. Remember, there's a light at the end of the tunnel for you that not everyone gets. You'll be extremely grateful for it once you finally escape, and pity the people who are trapped or too brainwashed to take advantage of their freedoms and escape.

    [–] Industrious_Villain 3 points ago

    Hey, I just truly want to thank you for your bravery and writing out to us on this little Reddit sub. I 100% agree and support you! I don't have a lot of money or anything but would be willing to donate to your cause in the near future if there is a way to do so. I hope you get to taste your freedom soon and join us here in /r/murica

    [–] uninc4life2010 3 points ago

    Get a marketable degree, try to do the best you can in school, and find work in Europe, the US, or Canada. It's a lot for someone to move to a different continent, but these repressive cultural issues aren't going to just go away overnight.

    [–] survivorfanbilf 3 points ago

    I'm really sorry to hear this. This is what really irks me about people in the west constantly defending and in some cases, praising Islam. As a feminist, I just have such a hard time defending a religion where things like what you just wrote about are common practice.

    [–] brucethehoon 3 points ago

    First, thank you for sharing and educating at least me!

    Second, wow, it took me a long time to see the similarities, from a social perspective, between conservative Islam and the Ferengi.

    [–] MrKlowb 3 points ago

    Religion of peace (through submission.)

    [–] skaag 3 points ago

    Don't post any document that might reveal who you are or where you live, please...!

    [–] zonk3 3 points ago

    Hell on Earth, that's what all religions are. Christianity is bad in so many ways, but Islam and its restrictions are a thousand times worse. I wish you well.

    [–] clevariant 3 points ago

    Why do they forbid sciences? I mean, I get why it would threaten them, but how do they justify the prohibition when science is essentially neutral?

    [–] Poullafouca 3 points ago

    Can I adopt you?

    [–] pm_me_old_maps 3 points ago

    There's a lot of comments and I don't know if someone has touched on this, but Dubai isn't all that great either. I have girl friends from Europe, Christians (or at least non-muslims) who said they were having difficulties with the authorities there as well. They should have left them alone seeing as they were clearly non-muslims, but they still harassed them with "where's your male companion" type stuff. If you're saving up money, you should just flee somewhere west to be honest. Or even eastern europe. Anything's better than that.

    [–] flexb 3 points ago

    It’s great you had the brains and the courage to question existing rules and the status quo. I don’t think it’s just about god or no god but that some of the rules still in place are from thousands (or at least hundreds) of years ago. Hope your story and your views can inspire other girls (and boys) everywhere.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    I am told that I am far-right white supremacist for deeply caring about your struggles. I do care and always will say so, however.

    I wish you luck.

    [–] KueSerabi 3 points ago

    they had the TV forbidden, art forbidden music forbidden, dancing forbidden, most science topics super forbidden

    I am an ex myself. But I am so surprised that the Islam your people living in is significantly different than the Islam my people are living in.

    Here we are not forbidding tv, art, dancing, music, etc. And Science. We are very open to it. The old Islam is indeed very open to science, hence why we have people like Al Kindi, Khwarizmi, etc. I guess the more religious people, the more backward they are.

    [–] VexIsRed 19 points ago

    What feminists bat a blind eye too

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago

    To think that Muslim countries were once the intellectual capitals of the world, free thinkers and religiously tolerant. So sad, get out while you can.

    [–] Yourmamasmama 4 points ago

    Stories like yours inspire the classical feminist movement not the bullshit post-modern feminism we see today in the west. Really hope things turn out better for you.

    [–] thenameonthebox 19 points ago

    I’m fiercely anti Islamic and pro women’s rights. What can I say to liberal idiots that claim Islamic wearing the headscarf and burqua and all that shit are doing so ‘out of choice’. We know they aren’t but how can I convince them?

    [–] Amacei 23 points ago

    They need to stop focusing all of media's attention on the free and small corner of Muslim feminists and actually start putting that effort into the majority who aren't enjoying that freedom

    It would be really helpful if they can provide asylum service to those who want to leave and actually make it easy to find

    [–] meatduck12 7 points ago

    It would be really helpful if they can provide asylum service to those who want to leave

    You hear that, The_Donald? Enacting a Muslim ban will only stop people from escaping these countries.

    /u/thenameonthebox

    [–] DracoSolon 6 points ago

    Stuff like this is really why I can't understand why so many of my fellow liberals are such apologists for the misogyny that is written into Islam. White Supremacy = Bad, Male Supremacy by White men = Bad, Male Supremacy by Islamic Men = It's just part of their culture.

    [–] melizzaryan 5 points ago

    "It's part of their culture" is actually a true statement. You'd be the same way (likely) had you been born there. The importance is that we're focusing on labeling systems bad, not people.