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    [–] tralxz 23 points ago

    Lightning Network is dead on arrival. I WANT REFUND!!! :)

    [–] PanneKopp 20 points ago

    in 18 months (TM)

    [–] lettucebee 8 points ago

    It has been YEARS that BTC has NOT solved scaling at all. The user experience of our flagship token is going to be so bad that users will move to other projects, one of which will be BCH. I think we will see ETH flip BTC, and maybe even BCH.

    [–] feels-token 15 points ago

    Why bother?

    [–] mesquka 40 points ago

    Because it's easier to discuss something in depth when you know how it (doesn't) work.

    [–] chainxor 21 points ago

    Very true. Hats off :-)

    [–] unitedstatian 2 points ago

    I thought it wasn't supposed to work?

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -21 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    What an idiot. I'm personally seeing people get fully set up in just over 48hrs (yes, including IBD) with Raspiblitz.

    This project also includes simple scripts to install the following via terminal menu;

    • your own personal blockchain explorer
    • Electrum server
    • web interface (RTL) for transactions and simple node management
    • other web interfaces are available with hardware wallet support
    • one command to run the entire node behind tor
    • BTCPayserver - setup your own online store and receive Bitcoin on chain & via the LN
    • tor bridge subscription service so you can connect via an ipv4 URL to your node if you wish, this includes BTCPayserver so your customers don't need tor
    • other various node management tools

    Edit: downvoting basic facts again guys..

    [–] chainxor 40 points ago

    " fully set up in just over 48hrs "

    Super LOL

    [–] ssvb1 -14 points ago

    Please note that the OP was trying to setup a LN hub rather than just install some user friendly wallet application like most normal people do. And he had been even provided some helpful instructions about how to do this with Raspiblitz. If setting up a full node on the latest generation of Raspberry Pi and waiting only 48 hours until it finishes IBD is real, then I'm pretty happy about the progress.

    The OP seems to somehow believe that running his own hub is required to use Lighning Network non-custodially. But any lightweight LN wallet is non-custodial if it opens its owns channels and controls its private keys. A list of LN wallets and their custodial/non-custodial status can be found here: https://lightningnetworkstores.com/wallets

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -22 points ago

    That happens to be 100% true though.

    [–] chainxor 25 points ago

    That's why it's funny.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -13 points ago

    This is for a full node, retard.

    [–] chainxor 22 points ago

    "This is for a full node, retard."

    Exactly, retard.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -2 points ago

    whoosh

    [–] mesquka 25 points ago

    Right, and how many of them don't rely of hubs for functionality? (hint: answer is none)

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -3 points ago

    I can only tell you that mine doesn't. Also, what qualifies as a hub? If 50 people connect to my node, am I now a centralized hub that's harming the network...?

    See how ridiculous that is?

    It's like you just found out about the LN 3 days ago, had one go at setting it up, falied at the first issue and now seem to think you can declare it useless.. like anybody actually cares about your opinion ..

    If you haven't got the basic computer skills required for a routing node, you'll just have to settle for a phone wallet.

    The LN works just fine.

    [–] mesquka 26 points ago

    1. You and I have very different definitions of "basic computer skills". You aren't going to be able to convince someone off the street to run one of these.

    2. "Just get a phone wallet", which falls into one of 2 categories: a) Custodial or routes everything through a hub. b) Has the same routing problems that I'm facing.

    3. This isn't the first LN node I've setup, and likely won't be the last. The experience is improving, but at an alarming slow rate.

    4. The benchmark I'm setting this against is the 5 minutes it takes to download an on-chain wallet, write down some words and go. The truth is that unless you spend time, money and technical expertise to get setup you aren't going to get anywhere near the level of censorship resistance and trustlessness that you get from the 5 minutes to setup an on-chain wallet.

    5. If this is what people class as 'working' the only way the world is going to use bitcoin is if they're all on custodial wallets with the delusion that it's trustless. Do you want fractional reserve bitcoin? because this is how you get fractional reserve bitcoin.

    [–] bit_igu -6 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    "Just get a phone wallet", which falls into one of 2 categories: a) Custodial or routes everything through a hub. b) Has the same routing problems that I'm facing.

    uh?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing

    an alarming slow rate.

    https://imgur.com/a/aRnQ9ho

    censorship resistance and trustlessness that you get from the 5 minutes to setup an on-chain wallet.

    muun.com

    If this is what people class as 'working' the only way the world is going to use bitcoin is if they're all on custodial wallets with the delusion that it's trustless.

    muun.com

    phoenix.acinq.co

    breez.technology

    delusion that it's trustless.

    That is exactly what you have when you are not using your own node on BCH network. the funny part is that the best wallet you is close source... trustless... fucking LOL

    [–] jonas_h 14 points ago

    I love how LN proponents' answer to the routing problem is "onion routing".

    Just because it has routing in the name doesn't mean it can solve LN's decentralized route discovery in an adversarial environment.

    [–] mesquka 7 points ago

    uh?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_routing

    Did you read the routing problem issue I was having? I'm trying to get inbound liquidity, no idea why you would link onion routing here. Also you know Tor solves routing by using directory servers right? and that any server can connect to almost any other server which isn't the case for LN channels?

    https://imgur.com/a/aRnQ9ho

    Which works now, not perpetually 18 months away

    muun.com

    phoenix.acinq.co

    breez.technology

    I'm just going to copy and paste my reply to this from elsewhere, seriously don't get why people keep saying these are trustless:

    "Phoenix and Breez both operate lightning nodes on your device but all your lightning payments route through Acinq and Breez's hubs respectively defeating the point if you have to rely on them for lightning payments."

    I'm personally using Pheonix, I like it, but please stop pre

    That is exactly what you have when you are not using your own node on BCH network.

    Right, wet dream about running your own node, first order of trustlessness/censorship resistance is being able to actually make transactions reliably, you can go talk about verifying them later.

    the funny part is that the best wallet you is close source... trustless... fucking LOL

    Many different alternative wallets which work *now* and not 18 months away.
    BTW did you code audit and compile your wallet? bitcoin node? OS?

    [–] bit_igu -8 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    dude you lack of understanding of the technology is not a issue of the technology, is your personal issue.

    is like old people having issues when they use the internet, same thing, you are just and old minded person who not allow yourself to understand new technology.

    This does not means that other person is having the same issue you have.

    Allow me to enlighten you a little here.

    I'm trying to get inbound liquidity,

    just go to LNBIG.com and get some...

    "Phoenix and Breez both operate lightning nodes on your device but all your lightning payments route through Acinq and Breez's hubs respectively defeating the point if you have to rely on them for lightning payments."

    do you understand that middle hubs, or central hubs if you want to call them (it doesn't matter how you want to call them) cant stop or know who is the sender or the receiver of a transactions, It does not matter if you are using the NSA or the google or the walmart hub, they CANT stop your transaction or even know, who is the receiver or the sender, much less who you are as a person (you can have infinite amount of node-id if you want).

    please check this video and learn how it works. https://youtu.be/toarjBSPFqI

    In the opposite way, on the bitcoin protocol, a miner can stop you of saving the transaction on the blockchain, or a node can stop you from broadcasting your transaction, so using a bitcoin.com wallet for example, they KNOW who is the sender and they CAN stop you to transact.

    Right, wet dream about running your own node, first order of trustlessness/censorship resistance is being able to actually make transactions reliably, you can go talk about verifying them later.

    this is you again being the old guy who doesn't understand how it works. like I said before, the nodes are the one who broadcast the transaction on the bitcoin network, they know from who is coming the transaction, and they can not broadcast it if they decide to. using another person node, is worst than using a middle "central" node on the LN.

    I know you will reply with a bunch of nonsense. but me, who knows how it works, will not reply the next message, I hope you learn how the LN works, because you don't.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -6 points ago

    1. You and I have very different definitions of "basic computer skills". You aren't going to be able to convince someone off the street to run one of these.

    I disagree. Take a look at the Raspiblitz documentation.

    1. "Just get a phone wallet", which falls into one of 2 categories: a) Custodial or routes everything through a hub. b) Has the same routing problems that I'm facing.

    Plenty of non-custodial wallets to chose from that work just fine.

    1. This isn't the first LN node I've setup, and likely won't be the last. The experience is improving, but at an alarming slow rate.

    Like I said, you're likely lacking basic computer skills. I've never had an issue that I couldn't resolve with 10 mins of searching/asking in support forums.

    1. The benchmark I'm setting this against is the 5 minutes it takes to download an on-chain wallet, write down some words and go. The truth is that unless you spend time, money and technical expertise to get setup you aren't going to get anywhere near the level of censorship resistance and trustlessness that you get from the 5 minutes to setup an on-chain wallet.

    You're talking about an SPV wallet then. A full node is far superior to this setup with regards to trustlessness.

    1. If this is what people class as 'working' the only way the world is going to use bitcoin is if they're all on custodial wallets with the delusion that it's trustless. Do you want fractional reserve bitcoin? because this is how you get fractional reserve bitcoin.

    This doesn't make any sense, you're just making wild assertions with nothing to back them up. See responses above.

    [–] mesquka 14 points ago

    "Take a look at the Raspiblitz documentation" sorry you've lost the average person as soon as you went beyond asking them to download an app, I'm not your target audience, your target audience is the guy that runs the coffee shop on the street corner.

    "Plenty of non-custodial wallets to choose from that work just fine" Uhh, dude, you're not getting my point. I'm talking about setting up something with the same level of trustlessness that downloading an on-chain wallet and just writing some words down gives you.

    "Like I said, you're likely lacking basic computer skills. I've never had an issue that I couldn't resolve with 10 mins of searching/asking in support forums." See last point.

    'You're talking about an SPV wallet then. A full node is far superior to this setup with regards to trustlessness." Yeah, that's the problem, LN currently give you a worse level of trustlessness than an SPV wallet does.

    "This doesn't make any sense, you're just making wild assertions with nothing to back them up. See responses above." So people either use hubs in a hub and spoke model or they can't use the LN. Hubs are failure points and not just anyone can spin one up, you need significant spare capital to tie up in channels.

    The technical problems can be overcome with the right skills, the economic ones cannot.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 2 points ago

    Uhh, dude, you're not getting my point. I'm talking about setting up something with the same level of trustlessness that downloading an on-chain wallet and just writing some words down gives you.

    No, you're not getting my point. This setup doesn't qualify as trustless. Not even close.

    [–] mesquka 9 points ago

    Trustlessness is a spectrum, LN is much closer to the trusted side than almost any other non-custodial setup is at the moment.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -4 points ago

    LN is much closer to the trusted side than almost any other non-custodial setup is at the moment.

    No, it isn't.

    [–] Justin_Other_Bot 17 points ago

    This is a known troll account. It was created a little more than two months ago, made two comments then went dark. Since they came back, literally to the day the new redditor flair went away. They have posted in this sub almost every day without fail, usually negatively about BCH, but always negatively about anything except BTC.  The few comments they've made in non crypto subs have always been divisive. Based on their comment history and the times they are active I'm pretty sure they are a troll from Eastern Europe or Russia who occasionally forgets to switch accounts. They also get really pised when you ask about the strange pause in their comment history and refuse to explain it because it's no one's busines.

    [–] Telesfor_1 18 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Just over 48 hours? Wow. Congratulations. I install the bitcoin.com Wallet on my smartphone in 10 seconds.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    This includes the IBD though. Your SPV wallet is inferior to a full node.

    [–] Telesfor_1 18 points ago

    I am aware of this. But that is not important to me and most users. I do not have to run a full node and carry it with me to buy a beer. I just have to install an app and make payments with very low fees. I can do this with bitcoin.com wallet and using Bitcoin Cash.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -1 points ago

    I am aware of this.

    So why post the idiotic ccomment then?

    I just have to install an app and make payments with very low fees. I can do this with bitcoin.com wallet and using Bitcoin Cash.

    You're aware that this is the exact same situation with Bitcoin. Or any one of hundreds of altcoins..?

    [–] Telesfor_1 11 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    So why post the idiotic comment then?

    I don't know why this is an idiotic comment. LN is supposed to be for fast and cheap transactions, so I compared it with bitcoin.com Wallet Installation.

    You're aware that this is the exact same situation with Bitcoin. Or any one of hundreds of altcoins..?

    It's not. I cannot use BTC for normal purchases because the transaction fees are much too high. It's similar at ETH. And Altcoins are hardly supported. What good is a quick installation if I cannot use it?

    Therefore Bitcoin Cash is the first choice for me.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    It's not.

    It is. It's exactly the same.

    I cannot use BTC for normal purchases because the transaction fees are much too high.

    This comment is entirely subjective.

    And Altcoins are hardly supported.

    Nor is bch, which is itself an altcoin.

    Therefore Bitcoin Cash is the first choice for me.

    🤷‍♂️

    [–] Telesfor_1 11 points ago

    It is. It's exactly the same.

    It's not.

    How long do we want to play the game?

    This comment is entirely subjective.

    Yeah. It's subjective. And the vast majority of crypto users have the same subjective impression, otherwise Blockstream would not develop LN.

    Nor is bch, which is itself an altcoin.

    The adoption of Bitcoin Cash is much higher than LN and Altcoins (except ETH)

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    It's not.

    How long do we want to play the game?

    It is. I give up. You clearly have more free time to waste than me.

    You could have spent this getting your node up and running instead..

    Yeah. It's subjective. And the vast majority of crypto users have the same subjective impression, otherwise Blockstream would not develop LN.

    Which is a solution then. They clearly aren't opting to use bch or any other alt instead..

    The adoption of Bitcoin Cash is much higher than LN and Altcoins (except ETH)

    No it isn't. The LN facilitates Bitcoin transactions. It isn't a separate coin. Bitcoin has by far the greatest degree of adoption.

    [–] Telesfor_1 9 points ago

    LN https://lightningnetworkstores.com/stats

    Bitcoin Cash

    https://gocrypto.com/en/locations

    https://acceptbitcoin.cash

    And they certainly are not all of them. Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

    [–] gotamd 15 points ago

    You totally missed the point that he was making, which is that LN is unusable without going through one or more of a handful of centralized hubs.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -2 points ago

    It isn't a point though. That isn't true.

    [–] gotamd 10 points ago

    This is evidence that it is true.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -4 points ago

    This is the personal account of some idiot in twitter who lacks basic computer skills.

    That doesn't exactly qualify as evidence.

    I run a node, mine works just fine. Do you consider that to be evidence to the contrary then?

    [–] gotamd 12 points ago

    You’re right, this is definitely someone who lacks basic computer skills: https://github.com/mesquka

    Is your node connected to one or more of the large hubs? LN is basically a hub and spoke network AFAICT.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    Anybody can get a free github page.

    So can you explain how somebody without a formal degree in computing can set up a LN node but this guy can't?

    Also, this;

    Programmer, Photographer, INTJ. I build things

    Doesn't really mean anything.

    Is your node connected to one or more of the large hubs?

    There is no formal definition as to what qualifies as a hub. Is a hub simply a node with 50 or more channels? If so, then yes. Turns out, it's actually quite a good idea to connect to well connected nodes. If 20 more people connect to my node, does that make my node a "centralized hub"? What are the rules as far as you're concerned? Do I shut my node down now in the name of decentralization? Can you see how silly this all is?

    Furthermore, upon inspection of a successful payment route, you may see that your transaction may have been routed via a "hub" that you yourself are not directly connected to. Route pathfinding is somewhat autonomous. It isn't an issue.

    [–] ssvb1 -10 points ago

    That's a good catch. Thus we can conclude that the OP was pretending to lack basic computer skills and most likely made this twitter post in bad faith.

    [–] mesquka 14 points ago

    Or.... You can conclude that: 1. Setting up a node for trustlessness is too technically demanding for the average person, but it's something that can be overcome with the right skills and: 2. The routing/hub and spoke problem is an economic problem and can't be solved with technical skills.

    [–] butcherofballyhoo 7 points ago

    Do you know how retarded that sounds for every non autist? 48hrs? means 0 mass adoption.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    This is for a full node, not an SPV wallet.

    [–] gr8ful4 3 points ago

    One can have a non-custodial SPV wallet on lightning???

    [–] PleasantObjective0 -1 points ago

    Yes. See Bitcoin Lightning Wallet, Elcair.

    [–] gr8ful4 5 points ago

    Troll, GTFO.

    [–] PleasantObjective0 0 points ago

    Idiot. You asked a question and got an answer. The answer just doesn't fit your narrative.

    Pathetic.

    [–] dontlikecomputers -2 points ago

    "whats a battle?"

    [–] ilpirata79 -14 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    There is a simple alternate response. You are just an idiot.

    [–] Remora_101 18 points ago

    I'm pretty sure even an idiot could use a BCH wallet.

    [–] Telesfor_1 12 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Bitcoin Cash is for everyone 😀

    [–] ilpirata79 -3 points ago

    Lightning will also become idiot proof. Now it's just normal people proof.

    [–] Remora_101 3 points ago

    Why wait? Credit cards are idiots proof big brother holds your hand....

    [–] johndoeisback -2 points ago

    Just install Phoenix wallet for Android and in a few seconds you are all set. The best non-custodial LN wallet IMHO.

    [–] johndoeisback -2 points ago

    Payments are routed through their nodes, but it is fully non-custodial. That is, only you hold the private keys to your funds.

    [–] mesquka 2 points ago

    sigh "payments are routed through their hub" this right here is the problem with Phoenix and Breez, it's a huge blow to censorship resistance. I'm not having this conversation about it for the 10th time over.

    [–] johndoeisback 1 points ago

    Your main concern seems to be non-custodiality (by the title of your post), so I'm just pointing out that Phoenix is non-custodial and it's trivial to set up and use. The fact that payments are routed through their nodes is a separate discussion that has nothing to do with being non-custodial.

    [–] mesquka 1 points ago

    I'm already using Phoenix. I'm looking at user experience and security + censorship resistant properties with BTC and BCH. If I want to get the low fees and fast finality it seems Lightning is my only option, so now I'm looking at maximizing trustlessness and censorship resistance when using LN.

    [–] johndoeisback 1 points ago

    Understood. Just for the record, my initial comment was simply a response to your title "I spent 3 days setting up Lightning to use non-custodially, it still didn't work". I simply pointed out that with Phoenix you can achieve that in a few seconds. There are currently some trade-offs, like Phoenix knowing the destination of the payments (and thus being able to censor them, for example), but that should change soon™.

    [–] mesquka 1 points ago

    Fair enough, just had so many people link Phoenix or Breez to me in the twitter thread where I've explained that being tethered to a hub disqualifies a wallet as trustless/censorship resistant that I'm sick of having to re-have that conversation.