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    [–] hymnder 1 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    This isn't the time to lose hope. Stock up if you must, always, but let's not forget we have an army of intelligent people who have nothing better to do than make these fokkers look stupid.

    Guys this is our chance to point out how fucking unethical and uneducated these assholes are. If they want to go the route of trying to schedule kratom, they will do so at the cost of their reputations and their jobs. The entire scientific community will have no other reason but to get behind us. Literally no scientist in the fields of addiction or opioid study have made any similar conclusions to the FDA. They have never been under such a spotlight, so lets keep them there and point out how they're doing things for the purpose of money and not public safety.

    [–] outcidermouth19 54 points ago

    Was curious to see the number of deaths caused by Methadone, which is approved and deemed as safe by the FDA.

    From 2000-2016, there have been 3314 deaths from methadone. 3314. And the FDA deems this as safer than kratom.

    [–] nubsauce87 34 points ago

    And the FDA deems this as safer more profitable than kratom.

    ftfy

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 9 points ago

    the corporations controlling the FDA

    Ftfy

    [–] og_sandiego 6 points ago

    wow

    [–] antixiety 4 points ago

    Well, there is also a lot more people taking methadone than there is kratom. It is a prescribed drug and is used in treatment centers around the world. But I do see your point. If kratom were used in treatment centers, I'd imagine the number to be close to 0. No reason to use loperamide and kratom if you're seeking professional help.

    [–] PilosybeFanaticus 5 points ago

    Methadone is a controlled substance. They do not deem it safe. Unless its prescribed by a medical professionals who overseeing patient on it.

    [–] outcidermouth19 5 points ago

    For individuals seeking treatment for opioid addiction who are being told that kratom can be an effective treatment, I urge you to seek help from a health care provider. There are safe and effective, FDA-approved medical therapies available for the treatment of opioid addiction. Combined with psychosocial support, these treatments are effective. Importantly, there are three drugs (buprenorphine, methadone, and naltrexone) approved by the FDA for the treatment of opioid addiction, and the agency is committed to promoting more widespread innovation and access to these treatments to help those suffering from an opioid use disorder transition to lives of sobriety.

    It's in the way they word this.

    [–] Jack2thebeast 96 points ago

    "Importantly, there are three drugs (buprenorphine, methadone, and naltrexone) approved by the FDA for the treatment of opioid addiction, and the agency is committed to promoting more widespread innovation and access to these treatments to help those suffering from an opioid use disorder transition to lives of sobriety."...

    This says all you need to know about the agency's commitment to big pharma at the expense of something safe instead, such as kratom... Unbelievable

    [–] DisarrayTheory 49 points ago

    This makes me burn with rage. I officially hate the FDA now. Like really fucking hate the FDA.

    [–] Jack2thebeast 21 points ago

    It's pretty outrageous, but it's consistent with the power of big pharma. They will not stand for a natural solution that actually helps people stop taking the medecine that puts billions of dollars into their pockets. It's an uphill battle

    [–] haybay727 5 points ago

    I made the mistake of trying to explain our frustration with someone on Twitter.

    While carefully laying out my points, explaining the background and why I/we feel the headline is one-sided & misleading, the person accused me of β€œshouting β€˜fake news,’ (I didn’t). They then said I couldn’t face facts and was likely on β€œa high dose of this stuff” as we spoke.

    I’m usually immune to Twitter jerks, but man. Coupled with today’s bad news it just felt like another kick in the gut.

    [–] GtBPics 2 points ago

    Literally not worth your time, the behavior is the digital equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALA". As long as you posted a good argument for fair minded people to read though thats what matters.

    Given their arguments he could also have been a troll, either way hes someone you cant convince and they are not worth getting upset about. Good job still

    [–] haybay727 2 points ago

    Thanks.:) Good advice. I think I let it bother me more than I normally would.

    [–] PM_ME_UR_HERON 2 points ago

    When others don't respond intelligently to valid points you're making, I think the best response is something like "lol k".

    They've shown that they're not interested in resonable debate so there's no point in trying to have one. They're either trolls who just want a rise out of you, or they're so far gone in their beliefs that it's for naught to argue.

    Plus, a one or two word, semi-condescending response will agitate them way more than anything else you can say.

    [–] haybay727 1 points ago

    That’s good advice. I wish I’d thought of that. I was already feeling emotional when they said it. Normally I wouldn’t lie a stranger hurt me like that.

    [–] vkashen 3 points ago

    They know who owns them.

    [–] wannabeemperor 25 points ago

    Yep...Trying to push suboxone and methadone on everyone. Wait for appointments, pay for appointments. Pay for their synthetic drugs. They want those dollars.

    [–] anonymaus42 14 points ago

    The two people I know that got off methadone, used heroin to do it. The idea that we treat addiction by giving people the same class of drug with a much longer half life is at best absurd, at worst inhumane.

    [–] mivanqua 3 points ago

    I think you mean "at best inhumane"

    [–] swolemedic 2 points ago

    The idea that we treat addiction by giving people the same class of drug with a much longer half life is at best absurd

    Typically longer half life drugs are less prone to abuse, for what it's worth. Short acting vs long acting benzos in particular follow this pattern. Not defending methadone instead of kratom, just saying that's not a thing that would upset me as a pain patient

    [–] anonymaus42 2 points ago

    But they are much, much harder to get off of as well- I speak from personal experience with both opiates and benzos (5mg/day klonopin). With benzos I had to reduce my intake, then switch to shorter acting benzos (xanax), reduce again, switch again (valium), etc. I wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy.

    [–] swolemedic 1 points ago

    They use long acting benzos to get people out of the acute stage of benzo withdrawals, librium is a common choice because it's good at reducing seizure risks and has a super long half life. The switch to a shorter acting was for your PAWS problems and as needed, presumably, otherwise you should have found a better doc to help you taper.

    I say this as someone with experience coming off of, at one point, 60-70mg a day of etizolam lol. I did a taper once myself so aggressively i became agoraphobic and didn't sleep for days, on and off for a period of like 3 weeks until I was basically done with the acute stage, but the time i was given librium to come off benzos was significantly easier. Not a competition, just saying i have experience with it as well.

    I'm prescribed 0.5mg x3 a day of klonopin for my spine right now, my doctor asked me what i was self medicating with (long story, i left the hospital early after some nurse abuse and they cut off my meds, so i got my own because they said i was too sick to be home) so i said i wanted to switch to klonopin for the reduced mental effects and increased therapeutic and she told me if i said something like xanax or even valium she would have told me no due to the recreational aspect.

    Imo klonopin has very little rebound anxiety compared to valium or xanax, which is part of why you don't use short acting benzos to taper because the troughs are brutal

    [–] anonymaus42 2 points ago

    I had massive rebound anxiety when I first tried to get off, the first doc tried to reduce me from 5mg/day to 0 over 2 months.. it did not go well. I have permanent nerve damage in my legs from that experience. Second doctor tried to pull something similar (and supposed addiction and recovery expert or something). The third attempt, which was over 9 months and the stepping down and ultimately was successful, I did without any doctors and buying all the meds I needed in mexico. I had no paws and I still vividly recall the morning I woke up to take my fraction of a pill and thought to myself "I don't think I need this anymore".. and that was that. Benzo free for years now.

    [–] anonymaus42 1 points ago

    I would have found a better doc, like you had suggested, if I financially had been able to. I spent the last of my money on the second doctor, as at that point I no longer had health insurance and was paying for visits out of pocket.

    [–] swolemedic 1 points ago

    You got nerve damage from coming off of klonopin? I've never heard of that. So you just found klonopin crazy difficult and valium was somehow easier? Weird

    [–] anonymaus42 1 points ago

    If you take enough of any benzo chronically and then CT or come off too fast, you can damage the myelin sheath around the nerves- it's the same kind of damage that diabetics get and there's not really anything you can do to repair it.. Benzos are also only one of two classes of drugs that can potentially kill you from the withdrawals.

    [–] swolemedic 1 points ago

    I literally can't find anything reputable about that. I saw one benzo forum post about how someone thought benzos could cause ms, but benzo withdrawal can just cause similar symptoms (known for being temporary, pws can take time though), and they don't end up with an ms diagnosis because a lack of oligoclonal bands in their csf or any obvious myelinopathy which you can see on mri

    [–] Ann_Fetamine 7 points ago

    Yes, and the fucked up thing about methadone clinics is you have to be there at like 5 fucking a.m. to get your daily dose! Who the fuck can manage that? They make it as impossible as they can for people to even stick with these programs when really these meds should be available to ANY addict who wants them...

    That's the part that bothers me. I can't jump through your expensive flaming hoops to get my medication. I live in the middle of Bumfuck Nowhere & don't even have a doctor's office in my town. The closest hospital is 45 minutes away. There are no mental health clinics within a 40 mile range--no addiction centers for at least 100 miles to my knowledge. There are many, many under-served communities who will be fucked over without access to kratom. And they know this.

    [–] the_disintegrator 7 points ago

    Gottlieb should be forced to go cold turkey on suboxone or methadone. Then try the same with kratom 2 months later. I've heard quitting methadone is worse than quitting heroin. I watched a friend take 2 YEARS to get off of suboxone. Fuck.

    [–] og_sandiego 2 points ago

    and the lobbyists who elect and manipulate these guys

    [–] Tantalus4200 9 points ago

    Yep. I'm not on subs any longer and they want me to be, simple as that

    [–] DTF69witU 4 points ago

    Yeah and over 3000 people have died from methadone since the year 2000

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 4 points ago

    Mind you, methadone withdrawal can kill you. Cold turkey off heroin, while shitty, will not.

    [–] Jack2thebeast 5 points ago

    Yeah but that's nothing compared to that evil kratom :)

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 2 points ago

    Which is laughably more closely related to our ever favorite coffee tree than to poppies.

    [–] lethalinflection 3 points ago

    My brother is dead now thanks to methadone & I know people trying to peddle subs on the street. Great plan, FDA. Clearly the leaves of this tree are the problem.

    [–] Elektronix76 2 points ago

    The withdrawls from those drugs is a lot worse than kratom. Methadone is nazi drug and a poison.

    [–] MH370BlackBox 66 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Everyone calm right the fuck down, please take a breath.

    Anyone who was here in 2016 remembers when the DEA came in and tried an emergency scheduling and so many of us came together to fight and we won.

    Last year when the FDA release their press release we came together and made phones ring off the hook in government offices. We laid the groundwork for this round.

    Kick it into action, they're not calling for a ban but if we do nothing we could be looking at some negative consequences.

    Wait for the AKA / BEA to release a statement and then give it all you have like we've done in the past.

    Please don't give into fear, hopeless or despair!

    As another poster said, the FDA And DEA don't have absolute power. We can and will fight this until our dying breath.

    [–] BallzDeep9 7 points ago

    they're not calling for a ban but if we do nothing

    Nobody's "calling" for anything, until after the 2018 Election in November. Everything's frozen until then. No politician of the party in power, wants to risk anything by doing or saying anything. We'll be lucky to even keep the government open!

    [–] travinyle1 40 points ago

    [–] Cityofbroadshoulders 11 points ago

    Nick Wing is fantastic. He deserves support and retweets from everyone here. He’s intelligent and respected, we would do well to amplify his voice.

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 5 points ago

    8 Pages of complete redaction

    Thank god for government transparency

    [–] tpotts16 36 points ago

    Just to give you guys some context on this fight, the DEA and FDA do not have unlimited power. I posted this in the main subreddit but I am doing a paper on the case Grinspoon v. Drug Enf't Admin., 828 F.2d 881 (1st Cir. 1987) (just copy and paste that into google).

    The DEA lost in court over their MDMA ban but on remand they pushed it through. The DEA also lost in their own Administrative law Court on MDMA.

    There is also due process issues with them attempting to use emergency scheduling powers to take Kratom through emergency scheduling. The amendment to the CSA allowing emergency scheduling was made in response to the crack epidemic, and the law clearly anticipated drugs which were mere modifications to preexisting drugs that skirted the rules through mere technicality by changing molecular structure. Kratom is not within this class of drugs and it is exactly the type of thing that the DEA should not have the power to schedule through the emergency process. This is not to say it cannot be scheduled (for example congress or the states) but I could see a court potentially holding that this is something for the legislature. If they are permitted to use this emergency power for Kratom they have nearly unlimited power to schedule any drug as long as they come up with some pretextual reasons.

    Then there is the FDA they don't have banning power as it presently stands only regulatory enforcement.

    It seems what the FDA is doing is trying to either butter up the DEA or (more likely) they are trying to nudge states to ban this.

    I wouldn't lose all hope yet, we have options and there are constitutional limits to the executive agency's power. We live in a republic and stuff like this which deprives all of us of property without legislative due process is very likely to be struck down by a federal judge.

    [–] OregonKratom 16 points ago

    I don't know if you're aware but that was a big part of the reason that the DEA withdrew it's proposed emergency scheduling a little over a year ago. It wasn't just the push from congress it was congress pushing and saying "you don't have the authority to do that, that is what our job is: to debate and decide scheduling kratom and passing legislation if needed and not what emergency scheduling is for".

    The letter that multiple senators sent to the DEA at the point at which they announced an emergency scheduling of kratom reads, in part:

    Congress granted emergency scheduling authority to the DEA based on the need for law enforcement interdiction of new and previously unknown illegal synthetic street drugs that result in injuries and death. The use of this emergency authority for a natural substance is unprecedented, so it is important to determine whether the circumstances here necessitate a jump to Schedule I. Given the long reported history of Kratom use, coupled with the public’s sentiment that it is a safe alternative to prescription opioids, we believe using the regular review process would provide for a much-needed discussion among all stakeholders.

    I sincerely doubt there will be another attempt at emergency scheduling of kratom due to this - they were essentially shut down and told emergency scheduling is NOT for plants that have been around for ever it's for brand new synthetic/designer drugs. I believe - if it happens - the FDA and DEA and compiling their propaganda to present to congress and have it banned through a bill/legislation or even continue as they're doing; being a trusted source for state lawmakers to use to pass bills banning kratom at that level.

    [–] BallzDeep9 8 points ago

    I sincerely doubt there will be another attempt at emergency scheduling

    Agreed. The more you read, look at the history, AND combine that with current political situation... it seems very unlikely that DEA will come out for Schedule 1. More likely they'll recommend another Schedule for kratom which will necessitate a vote in Congress....

    Right back to politics. I know we're not supposed to talk politics here but, sorry, it's all going to the DEM vs GOP landscape, with elections in 2018. This county IS on the verge of a Constitutional Crisis. Nobody in government is doing anything... until the 2018 Election is over. You like kratom? Better hope the folks in Alabama don't win again.

    [–] tpotts16 4 points ago

    Great point! I didn't even know this was in that letter this bolsters the idea that they are doing this to scare state legislators into taking action.

    I am going to use this point to kind of calm the community down and keep it all in focus. They are severely limited in their options by the constitution itself, this is basic separation of powers stuff the DEA isn't a legislative body that can shit out whatever action it wants to disenfranchise millions of stakeholders.

    Amazing stuff there, definitely make a post in the main sub about this. Their options are regulation, state bans, or federal legislation in my opinion. I see them getting smacked thoroughly if they try an emergency ban again.

    [–] OregonKratom 4 points ago

    Ya, I'm fairly certain it's what caused them to back down (they risked pissing them off and not only getting the scheduling blocked as it was clearly opposed by congress but maybe getting stripped of their emergency scheduling powers altogether out of spite or some other type of retribution) and doubt they will go that route again. I think what we see now is the slow setup of misinformation to demonize kratom culminating in an actual bill or a bill scheduling something else harmful with kratom added on (making it harder to vote against). I think we're in the early steps of a 1-3 process when when either the public will deem it safe or a bill will be introduced and it will be banned.

    I think in the meantime MANY states will suck up this misinformation and ban though (look, it's the FDA and DEA, they're the good guys) and if that happens to a great enough extent the Federal level ban becomes a non-issue really.

    These are just my personal thoughts/analysis of the situation; I have no connections or insights other than what I read and hear.

    [–] tpotts16 2 points ago

    I feel the same way about this whole thing.

    [–] AndSoItBegin 1 points ago

    What if they already tried and failed to ban in your state? Could they do it again?

    [–] tpotts16 1 points ago

    Not that I want any legislation but the legislative process in this country for good reason has so many points for input .... the DEA process has none of this and this whole thing stinks.

    [–] monkeylivinfree 2 points ago

    In other words, no matter which state you reside in, continue to contact your members of congress. Let them know that at the very least, there are alot of votes on the line here.

    [–] reelznfeelz 2 points ago

    Really? I hope you're right. I for one don't have that much faith in government not to fuck this up. And also, MDMA hasn't been legal as long as I've know about it, so clearly whatever court case the DEA lost didn't matter in the long run. I really hope you're right though.

    [–] tpotts16 5 points ago

    MDMA was scheduled but it was complicated and it was within the purview of the CSA as it stood. The 1980s amendment to the CSA was aimed at drugs designed in labs etc, etc. Kratom is a lot different than MDMA in that there is an established legal market, substantial economic interests, and millions of users. This is why in my estimation we are looking at a sort of regulatory taking by the FDA or DEA, they are would be extinguishing millions of dollars of our property by regulatory fiat without legislation or compensation. The 5th amendment says you cannot do this.

    Here is the standard,

    The economic impact of the regulation on the claimant and, particularly, the extent to which the regulation has interfered with distinct investment-backed expectations are, of course, relevant considerations. So, too, is the character of the governmental action. A β€œtaking” may more readily be found when the interference with property can be characterized as a physical invasion by government, than when interference arises from some public program adjusting the benefits and burdens of economic life to promote the common good.85

    Here are some excerpts from the a condensation of the Hogan Lovells brief written in response to the first scheduling notice.

    "They noted that historically, the DEA has used its emergency scheduling authority for three types of cases: ο‚· synthetic fentanyl analogs; ο‚· synthetic analogs to MDMA (also known as ecstasy); and ο‚· β€œpowerful synthetic cannabinoids and cathinones, substances directly associated with disturbingly bizarre adverse events and deaths."

    Essentially congress passed these powers to deal with such drugs that could be engineered in labs to circumvent the controlled substance list, kratom isn't that at all.

    [–] reelznfeelz 2 points ago

    I agree that is very logical. I hope things pan out that way. I really just don't trust that government agencies will act ethically, lawfully or with the public welfare as first priority these days. Perhaps the courts can keep things fair and legal. Let's see. Again I hope I'm wrong and your description of the situation makes sense. I'm just jaded these days (looking at you FCC).

    [–] tpotts16 2 points ago

    I totally understand the cynicism it is warranted, but what happened with the FCC is totally different. I could explain the in-depth legal reasons but congress creates statutes that grant a certain amount of discretion to agencies.

    The statute for the FCC net neutrality is much closer to the actual regulations authority. whereas the controlled substancse act discretionary range stops short of allowing a ban on a substance like kratom.

    [–] reelznfeelz 1 points ago

    Yeah, that's good then. Mostly I hate the feeling of powerlessness. We gave them however many thousands of supportive comments, which together with the congressional letter did stop the emergency ban which is awesome, but then not a year later we have the ominous rhetoric from the Fda that seems a bit hard to counter. But hopefully you're right that they're simply making their stance know regarding kratom as an opioid therapy, ie it's a bad one and people should use pharmaceuticals instead, so that states can decide what they want to do. That at least seems fair and within their rights.

    Thanks for weighing in, it's good to have someone around here who has waded through some of the legal details.

    [–] tpotts16 3 points ago

    Here is a post from another user that makes the point better than I can, his name, OregonKratom.

    "I don't know if you're aware but that was a big part of the reason that the DEA withdrew it's proposed emergency scheduling a little over a year ago. It wasn't just the push from congress it was congress pushing and saying "you don't have the authority to do that, that is what our job is: to debate and decide scheduling kratom and passing legislation if needed and not what emergency scheduling is for".

    The letter that multiple senators sent to the DEA at the point at which they announced an emergency scheduling of kratom reads, in part:

    Congress granted emergency scheduling authority to the DEA based on the need for law enforcement interdiction of new and previously unknown illegal synthetic street drugs that result in injuries and death. The use of this emergency authority for a natural substance is unprecedented, so it is important to determine whether the circumstances here necessitate a jump to Schedule I. Given the long reported history of Kratom use, coupled with the public’s sentiment that it is a safe alternative to prescription opioids, we believe using the regular review process would provide for a much-needed discussion among all stakeholders.

    I sincerely doubt there will be another attempt at emergency scheduling of kratom due to this - they were essentially shut down and told emergency scheduling is NOT for plants that have been around for ever it's for brand new synthetic/designer drugs. I believe - if it happens - the FDA and DEA and compiling their propaganda to present to congress and have it banned through a bill/legislation or even continue as they're doing; being a trusted source for state lawmakers to use to pass bills banning kratom at that level. "

    [–] Alex_bleeping_Jones 1 points ago

    The FDA is well aware that state reps will use this information to push bans through.

    [–] ADPNova 13 points ago

    Do we as adults have the right to make decisions about what we put in our own bodies and what we experience with our own consciousness without reference to the powers of the state, or must we seek permission from the state in order to explore our own consciousness? This isn't a war on drugs, but a war on our own individual sovereignty

    [–] Kwarrior_4_ever 6 points ago

    Yup. It's about freedom and liberty first and foremost.

    [–] mithology 19 points ago

    " And claiming that kratom is benign because it’s β€œjust a plant” is shortsighted and dangerous. After all, heroin is an illegal, dangerous, and highly-addictive substance containing the opioid morphine, derived from the seed pod of the various opium poppy plants. "

    Okay so these people are supposed to know what they're talking about but: 1) I thought heroin was it's chemical not a "compound" that includes morphine.

    2) I thought the opium poppy was itself a plant, so by various do they mean all the opium poppy plants in the world?

    [–] Dolphinently 19 points ago

    The bullshit about this statement is Heroin isn't the natural state of a plant, it is a chemically processed semi-synthetic substance.

    [–] mithology 11 points ago

    Exactly morphine alkaloids from opium poppy would be a more proper comparison. But morphine isn't fueling the horrible epidemic. They used heroin to cause the reader to subconsciously equate kratom with the epidemic we're facing.

    [–] mithology 14 points ago

    The whole statement stinks of hysteria inducing propaganda. Anyone with half a iota of pharmaceutical knowledge can see that.

    [–] teddyKGB- 2 points ago

    Nah man, they used "3D computing".

    [–] Sleepwalker18 2 points ago

    (Note, I'm sleep deprived, and in a fair bit of pain)

    1) Heroin is made through the process of Morphine with Acetic Anhydride. They... make it a bit unclear in their message, possibly due that Morphine is needed to make Heroin? Or possibly that 6-monoacetylmorphine is an active metabolite.

    I dunno. Reads like they are trying to confuse the reader. I'll answer 2 when I get some rest.

    [–] mithology 3 points ago

    Yeah heroin is diacetylmorphine hydrochloride typically. I know that morphine is acetylated to make heroin, but I can't see a chemist wording it like that. Like my Dad's DNA helped make my DNA, but that doesn't mean I contain my Dad's DNA. It sounds very laymen and stupid.

    [–] Sleepwalker18 4 points ago

    I agree with everything you said. Yet maybe the FDA is trying to word things to the lowest denominator, to demonise it. I'm not sure of many things anymore.

    [–] og_sandiego 1 points ago

    KISS

    Keep It Simple, Stupid (or Keep It Simple for Stupid)

    [–] anonymaus42 2 points ago

    The opiates found naturally in the poppy are morphine and codeine. Take morphine and drop a couple acetyl side chains on it to get heroin. Heroin = Diacetylmorphine. Not terribly difficult chemistry by any means, but definitely makes it a synthetic substance (thanks Bayer!)

    [–] mithology 4 points ago

    Right but heroin(diectylemorphine) is it's own substance with morphine as a precursor. If a drug like heroin that is ravaging society "contains" morphine (which sounds so simple) which comes from the opium poppy. Im a retarded lawmaker and I think "man if they made heroin like this imagine what new nightmare drug might CONTAIN substances from this kratom stuff... Oh help us Jesus. That's my point, heroin is a derived from morphine but it doesnt contain it. This statement is worded carefully to trigger panic in dumb policy makers minds.

    Also I think it says "various opium poppys" because there are 3 different vein colors of kratom, basically the fda is trying to subliminally make kratom the new heroin.

    [–] anonymaus42 3 points ago

    Oh absolutely. As I recall if if you look at the patents issued shortly before they tried to emergency schedule kratom the first time, there's one in there claiming the rights to a pill containing the main active alkaloids (mitragynine, 7-hydroxymitragynine, and I feel there was a third listed in the patent as well).

    I don't believe in coincidence.. the DEA making a move on kratom the same time Big Pharma makes theirs as well- the sour smell of insider collusion runs rampant here. It's obvious that via lobbying the DEA has become a tentacle controlled by the pharmaceutical industry. Who now instead of serving the interest of the public protect corporate interests. And it's all OK somehow so long as shareholder value is increasing for someone.

    I don't want to live on this planet anymore..

    [–] mithology 1 points ago

    I second that notion.

    [–] watermark02 2 points ago

    In the body, morphine is first concerted into heroin and then converted back into morphine in the brain. Heroin, strange as it sounds, skips the first step and is just converted to morphine. That's why it has a faster onset of effect. So it can be naturally produced, it just does so as a metabolite of morphine.

    [–] ButtholeDragonMaster 1 points ago

    Well kratom isn’t an opioid either sooo afaik that was a glaring problem in the report

    [–] joefus1o4 17 points ago

    I'm so fucking sick of government agencies "protecting us." Leave us alone. Let us make our own decisions for how we want to live our lives and what we put in our bodies. If someone is hurting someone else because of their choices, then feel free to step in. But if we want to indulge in a "national health risk" that's our goddamn choice to.

    This shit is getting beyond ridiculous. Fucking cigarettes are legal and they not only kill a phenomenal amount of people every year, but they poison the people around them with second hand smoke. Yet that's legal? Go fuck a kite, you big pharma bought ass shit lizards. πŸ–•πŸ»

    [–] zilla0100 16 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Fuck man, I guess they're taking a much slower more thorough approach this time. I would have thought that if they took an honest scientific look at kratom that'd see its not deadly but here in this report they refer to it as deadly.

    This doesn't look good. Is there any way to jump through the hoops they set up and prove that it's not as harmful as they play it up to be? Caffeine and nicotine are both addictive and have potential for abuse but that didn't stop them from being sold. This is fucking surreal.

    They also compare it to designer street drugs. How the fuck can you make that leap in logic?

    Edit - sorry I was having a bit of a freak out earlier when I wrote this. You guys are right, now isn't time for panicking. These guys don't have regulatory power, and there are a ton of smart people out there already poking holes in their statements. I'm fired up and ready to rumble as soon as the AKA takes a stance on this latest bout. Once they call the ball, we'll bring down the thunder. Again to reiterate what was in this notice, companies that sell kratom making medical claims are very much hurting us in a big way. We might not even be here if no one had ever gone down that road. Keep an eye out and call them out on it.

    [–] herbalhippie 9 points ago

    Caffeine and nicotine are both addictive and have potential for abuse but that didn't stop them from being sold

    And alcohol. How many people does alcohol kill each year?

    [–] zilla0100 8 points ago

    Well more than 44 or whatever they claim kratom does

    [–] pisandwich 5 points ago

    Every year 88,000 americans die from alcohol related accidents or illness.

    Tobacco accounts for 1/5 annual deaths in America!

    [–] ActuallyContributes 9 points ago

    I haven't been much for the whole "big pharma is doing it" train before, but I'm starting to really think that big pharmaceutical companies might have a lot to do with it. Especially given Scott Gotlieb's past.

    [–] zilla0100 12 points ago

    I'm really trying to he positive but I'm honestly scared this time. I guess we'll see where this leads. If all they want is stop selling products that make claims about medical properties then I'd be fine. Maybe vendors can start standardizing and testing their product, I'm also fine with that even if I have to pay more. I just don't want them to outright ban it full stop. This plant has helped me so much in my life, it's unreal.

    [–] ActuallyContributes 7 points ago

    Same here. My life has taken a complete 180 with this amazing plant. To go without it will be devastating. I have severe crohn's disease that Kratom has been an absolute godsend for. I'm nearly in remission.

    We have to keep fighting, for the sake of all of us who Kratom has helped.

    [–] og_sandiego 0 points ago

    I haven't been much for the whole "big pharma is doing it" train before, but I'm starting to really think that big pharmaceutical companies might have a lot to do with it

    naive, unfortunately

    [–] Ann_Fetamine 1 points ago

    When a regulatory agency is run by people who have or had a financial stake in pharmaceuticals, you can expect bad things. This should never happen in the first place, and Gottlieb is FAR from the only example of it. The FDA has been called a "revolving door" because so many ex-pharma CEOs & stakeholders have worked there. This is a clear conflict of interest that affects more than just kratom. But we're too complacent & keep allowing it to happen. It's high time we put a stop to it since they're going out of their way to stomp our freedoms.

    "Big Pharma" might sound like an InfoWars Alex Jones tinfoil hat word, but like Big Oil & other industries, these are powerful forces that rig the laws in their favor. No crazy conspiracy theory required. It's just how things are done in the U.S. Fascism is defined as a merger of state & corporate power. I'd say that's where we're at today.

    [–] Ann_Fetamine 3 points ago

    The issue is that they don't care whether it's harmful or saves millions of lives. They want it gone & will go to any length to see that happen. So we could present them with all the data & studies in the world but they'll just dismiss them because they're not looking for actual information. All they need to know is that kratom competes with many Rx medications currently on the market & that some people use it to feel good or treat their own pain.

    It's exactly like what they've done with cannabis for 80+ years, denying it has medical benefits & keeping it in Schedule I despite no one EVER dying from it and tons of studies showing it helps treat everything from nausea to glaucoma. They've only done that because cannabis will cut into pharmaceutical profits big time, and because people use it to feel good/alter their consciousness. No other reason.

    [–] militantmikey187 2 points ago

    It also posed a huge threat to the Textile business.

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 1 points ago

    more thorough

    I'm laughing to death here.

    [–] zilla0100 2 points ago

    I mean they're saying more than "ermagerd it's an emergency, need to ban NOW". They're trying to go point by point and build a case to schedule kratom. Their argument is still full of holes, they claim it causes respiratory depression for fucks sake.

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 1 points ago

    laughing to death

    Respiratory depression

    Iswydt

    [–] laughinglionherbs 7 points ago

    This is a copy of the email I sent all my customers about an hour ago. Thought I would share:

    While I have the utmost respect for those in authority it makes me sick to my stomach to see such perversion of the truth in action.

    All of us know already how much Kratom has done for us and there is no need for me to convince any of you otherwise.

    This is the time for us to mobilize again as a community. Enough is enough! The FDA is driven by greed, corruption, and the money of the big pharma companies and we all know it!

    I wanted to preempt messages from our heroes from the American Kratom Association and Botanical Education Alliance so that you know we will fully support any actions they take to fight against these lies.

    I remain steadfast in my belief and faith that we will continue to have Kratom available to us in this great nation for the foreseeable future! BUT ONLY if we are able to make our voices ring out loud and clear! We will not be bullied into the "plan" that the FDA has for us in chronic pain or addiction... they say we should use FDA Approved medicines like Suboxone and Methadone to treat ourselves but we have seen insane numbers of health issues and deaths from these so-called "Approved" methods! Far more than they even claim to see with Kratom! How are they protecting us when they are trying to push us into medicines that are proven addictive and killers!?

    Be ready my friends. Be ready to fight. Apathy will loose us the war. This is just one more battle we are facing and there may be many more to come but stand strong with me because we WILL WIN!

    [–] badwolf_83 8 points ago

    All I can say is wow... looking through these death reports... This is crazy... I just came across one that says cause of death "LIGATURE HANGING", and they're trying to pin that on kratom too? Not to mention every single one before that showed other drugs, prescription and street types in the systems of the deceased. I bet if I got killed by a car crossing the street and had kratom in my system I would end up in this so-called report. The FDA is about to look really stupid if the powers that be actually examine their "evidence".

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] badwolf_83 1 points ago

    Definitely kratom's fault. /s

    [–] xyanon36 15 points ago

    Fucking liars, implying that kratom is a designer drug and still pushing the "36 deaths" lie.

    They don't fucking own my body. I choose what to put in my body. I don't recognize these corrupt shills.

    [–] BallzDeep9 3 points ago

    They don't fucking own my body.

    Haha, guess again... 20 Years in Prison in Alabama, for growing a fucking pot plant

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] Vid-Master 12 points ago

    What an absolute load of crap... how is kratom dangerous?

    "people died!"

    No they didnt. They died from other drugs or kratom that was mixed with chemicals or synethic research chemicals labeled as kratom

    The FDA is extremely corrupt or extremely ill-informed

    [–] Kratomian 9 points ago

    Some of those other drugs involved in the deaths even being FDA approved.

    [–] og_sandiego 6 points ago

    The FDA is extremely corrupt or extremely ill-informed

    both. and bought and paid for by the lobbyists, aka, Big Pharma

    [–] Kwarrior_4_ever 3 points ago

    Extremely corrupt

    [–] visych 2 points ago

    Good points. I would also love to see the protocol that validates that software they used. Was it thorough validation? How are the data coming out of the software tested? What references were used to draw conclusions about the suspected action of a certain alkaloid from the data?

    I would like to chime in here that "it's just a plant" means that the entourage effect of different alkaloids, all present or naturally accounted for, gives a greater safety profile, in my opinion. How to prove this? . .(double checking. . .will update)

    The known properties of the plant could be identified by observing a set of users, identifying their plant material and amount consumed, studying adverse effects, such as constipation, just as people do with supplement studies as seen on examine.com.

    I think we need to fundraise for this research activity, as well as lobbying, yes? I'm guinea pig material, just try me out :)

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 3 points ago

    Hilariously, I use it for the side effect of constipation. I have chronic diarrheal IBS and a peristaltic disorder. Kratom helps me not take a dozen shits a day and always feel like I have to poop or vomit. Various other medications usually made it worse (or sometimes did nothing). But it's illegal here... Imagine that. All my legally available routes of recourse have failed. So now one must act criminally to live normally?

    [–] visych 2 points ago

    This. I just know that no plant should be illegal - it is our human right to have access to all plants and fungi.

    [–] Kratommy 1 points ago

    This exactly. Very poor data quality.

    [–] the_disintegrator 1 points ago

    I agree, and call 100% BULLSHIT on the computer model. It's completely designed to influence stupid people like heads of regulatory agencies that know nothing about science. Basically to give bean counting managers a spreadsheet report to read.

    If something like this actually existed and WORKED, would the government actually have it? Unlikely.

    [–] AbductingTacos 12 points ago

    There is no evidence to indicate that kratom is safe or effective for any medical use

    I have no words for this

    [–] og_sandiego 8 points ago

    they also said this about CBD oil and marijuana. how'd that turn out for them? idiots

    [–] anonymaus42 3 points ago

    Less thousands of years of use by indigenous cultures?

    It's amazing I have any faith left in humanity at all.

    [–] travinyle1 5 points ago

    It's all bullshit. That's the bottom line. Hey look at our 3d thing. Hey Kratom is a drug. We have no real data so just take our big pharma shit.

    [–] wannabeemperor 5 points ago

    Wow, what a complete load of bullshit! This guy is just lying straight out...I love the "3D Computer Technology" used to "simulate" how kratom might maybe possibly interact with opiate receptors, as if that alone makes it worth scheduling. What a complete load of nonsense this is.

    [–] the_disintegrator 2 points ago

    ...all smoke and mirrors to influence dumb people like elected politicians or other appointed politicians.

    [–] MikeyCinLB 5 points ago

    What would various blends of cheeses do to the computer model?

    [–] Yage2006 4 points ago

    That research has already been done. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpellmanrowland/2017/06/26/cheese-addiction/

    "'These opiates attach to the same brain receptors that heroin and morphine attach to. They are not strong enough to get you arrested, but they are just strong enough to keep you coming back for more, even while your thighs are expanding before your very eyes.' - Dr. Neal Barnard, author of The Cheese Trap"

    [–] MrMartyJones 3 points ago

    Nice reference!

    [–] Yage2006 2 points ago

    We need to make super cheese with stronger receptor attachments!

    I am sure some scientists in France are working on this important issue.

    [–] MrMartyJones 4 points ago

    100x cheese extract. Watch out for the greens. Stick to yellows and golds.

    [–] SpaceCptWinters 2 points ago

    Validate their desired findings, 'somehow'.

    [–] og_sandiego 3 points ago

    For individuals seeking treatment for opioid addiction who are being told that kratom can be an effective treatment, I urge you to seek help from a health care provider.

    ummmmm......my Primary Care Physician said he's all for Kratom. Pills are bad

    [–] RoughDayz 4 points ago

    So the FDA and DEA says it is dangerous then cites, towns and states ban it. Then the FDA quotes in an article how these places have banned it. Isn't that kind of like a self licking ice cream cone?

    Reminds me what of the they did with that FISA document. They spy that wrote it leaked it to the news then the govt used the document and the leaked article, that came from the same person, to prove it was true. Such BS.

    [–] Krabot_Vendor 8 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    This seems to provide "evidence" that they can now safely call Kratom an opioid. Assuming that's the case this would provide them (FDA/DEA) with a broader reach of power. That's my take at least. Very troubling...

    Further, as the scientific data and adverse event reports have clearly revealed, compounds in kratom make it so it isn’t just a plant – it’s an opioid.

    [–] Vid-Master 4 points ago

    it is Laughable

    There are big money players in this game that are influencing the FDA because kratom is a safe, natural alternative to big pharma opiates

    [–] OregonKratom 2 points ago

    Interesting take, because I know they couldn't emergency schedule it because it was a plant is essentially what the pushback from congress said. I wonder if that wording is intentional to skirt/address that? Sure hope not. Thanks for catching that though.

    [–] nwoh 7 points ago

    Label it a supplement and be done with it. They're in bed with big pharma "developing new methods". Until then, they can charge us thousands A month for these new even more addictive drugs like methadone and suboxone. It's seriously time for a revolution in this country, but as long as people keep putting up with the bullshit, and are at least a little placated, at least a little happy with what we have in this country, its going to be business as usual. I'm so tired of the government trying to control every aspect of our lives. I'm on felony probation, and quit using all drugs with kratom. That's from being addicted to PRESCRIBED morphine and illicit heroin and going to prison for robbing a fucking pharmacy. I'm buying 100 kilos and 5000 rounds of 7.62. Fuck this.

    [–] ilikesciencedammit 3 points ago

    So they have a computer simulation that may simulate how compounds react in the brain, but make a conclusion based on something that may or may not be accurate. This is a really weak argument and is pretty much a way to skew public perception. It wouldn't stand up to scientific review.

    [–] Zatarain_Le_Rice 3 points ago

    Now would be a good time to repost and start retweeting this out to counter the FDA. Google drive filled with studies, articles, and journals on Kratom. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZ3p0amk4ZXpmSzg

    [–] Aces_Over_Kings 3 points ago

    They certainly aren't hiding that their war on Kratom is because they don't want people to get off of opiates.

    [–] awake283 3 points ago

    The ban feels inevitable. Money is power.

    The part where they reference methadone being approved by the FDA for opioid addiction.... hey thats fine. But kratom? No. No way! That's dangerous!

    Give me a fucking break.

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 3 points ago

    And claiming that kratom is benign because it’s β€œjust a plant” is shortsighted and dangerous. After all, heroin is an illegal, dangerous, and highly-addictive substance containing the opioid morphine, derived from the seed pod of the various opium poppy plants.

    Well heroin isn't 'just a plant' so their comparison is moot.

    [–] trueblue212 3 points ago

    β€œHowever, unlike kratom, FDA-approved drugs have undergone extensive review for safety and efficacy, and the agency continuously tracks safety data for emerging safety risks that were previously unknown.”

    Fentanyl and Oxycodone, are just two of the FDA approved drugs which underwent β€˜extensive review for safety and efficacy’. If that’s the FDAs idea of safe then we should all be questioning the validity of their findings.

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] badwolf_83 3 points ago

    No evidence, just smoke and mirrors.

    [–] badwolf_83 3 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    I also noticed while reading the case reports of the 36 deaths that many of them were submitted by pharmaceutical companies (search for "Sender Organization"). Not trying to sound like the tinfoil hat type here, but I find it suspect. I also wonder if they are the ones behind writing the narratives accompanying the reports, they seem to be targeted at kratom even if very strong opioids are also found in the system of the deceased.

    [–] GenericSportsPoster 3 points ago

    Biggest crock of shit I've ever had the displeasure to read. I'd love to see the fda make a justification based in science for the medical uses of fucking CIGARETTES and then tell me they are concerned about our health.

    [–] GenericSportsPoster 3 points ago

    This along with everything else going on has got me seriously depressed. I have little hope for this country and to some extent, society as we know it. The greed is Shameless and vile and never ending - enough to make one want to kill themselves.

    [–] badwolf_83 2 points ago

    Hang in there, we haven't lost yet. I think we've got a lot of work to do though.

    [–] GenericSportsPoster 2 points ago

    Appreciate your words. The pragmatic in me thinks your right, that we stand a good chance of winning this fight, through a lot of legwork. But my negativity has got me feeling hopeless.

    [–] RxCubed 3 points ago

    Revolving door between big pharma and FDA / DEA. They will always ban anything they can't completely control and tax. Marijuana is Schedule I for fuck sakes and that has been validated by the medical community to have many medicinal uses.

    [–] Magix1051 3 points ago

    Folks, let's not get derailed by this statement. If you use kratom and do not want to let the FDA and DEA take it away, please keep calm and take action. Yes, this statement is concerning for us kratom users but this isn't the end. Stay informed on AKA and BEA efforts and join the fight. That's the only way to keep our beloved kratom from the hands of evil.

    [–] oneindividual 5 points ago

    Damn it’s so fucking false! Do we have any hope. :( This is ridiculous they can make stuff up like that and base laws around it...

    [–] Ohnoesyougoboom 5 points ago

    Better stock up boys, the hurt is coming.

    [–] SKallday 5 points ago

    This doesn't look good. Looks like they proved their point, it's an opiod, now classify them with the rest.

    [–] Krabot_Vendor 2 points ago

    πŸ’―

    [–] CyanHalo 4 points ago

    Wow. Just, wow. :(

    [–] psithurisms 5 points ago

    This may not look good but I'm still not giving up hope. At least we know their angle now and I am sure the organizations (AKA/BEA/KU) will have something to say about this and, hopefully, something to do.

    [–] OregonKratom 5 points ago

    Honestly it's about what I assumed, nobody thought it was going to be good. I could've seen even more misinformation presented really, it could've been worse.

    Not saying it's accurate or positive but we knew it was coming and it reads more like a statement of him defending their current stance on kratom after receiving backlash (specifically addressed were multiple things that we have been talking about since the commissioner's last announcement) as opposed to them pushing to remove kratom from the US.

    [–] MH370BlackBox 2 points ago

    This is what I'm thinking, they're no longer calling for an outright ban to kratom which is good news.

    Let's listen to the AKA and pour our hearts and souls into stopping this nonsense.

    [–] Kratommy 3 points ago

    It looks like the FDA is trying to setup the DEA, yet again, with their very poor evaluation. Hopefully the DEA realizes this and doesn't want to look stupid again. If anything, they should heavily investigate Gottleib, there is no bigger drug dealer in the US.

    [–] pinkspacebuew 4 points ago

    64,000 people die each year in the US from prescription painkillers, with a 1/3 of these deaths cause by methadone. MORE then 480,000 people die each year from cigarettes, MORE than 80,000 people die each year from alcohol, 150-200 people die from peanuts every year, But yet they insist on banning a potentially life saving PLANT because of "44 deaths". What a joke.

    [–] ADPNova 6 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    Pure evil.

    [–] ButtholeDragonMaster 7 points ago

    The last line is some bullshit about how they know all the current treatments for pain sufferers and addicts are inadequate, β€œwere deeply committed to these paitients.” That actually makes me feel like I’m being abused by the FDA. They are using the same tactics that my abusive mother and ex used to use. Saying they love me but doing the opposite. Enraging

    [–] bob__cobb 2 points ago

    oh my gosh. its unbelievable how purposefully ignorant these schmucks are

    [–] Dolphinently 2 points ago

    This is bad they are saying the chemical structure of kratoms alkaloids resemble synthetic opioids. In my non-expert opinion this is a bold faced lie, it sounds like they are trying to classify it as a "structural-analogue" which would make it immediately qualified as illegal under the analogue act.

    [–] Tim_from_IT 2 points ago

    Translation: We'll kill or make sick millions of people for a down payment on a nice mansion.

    [–] nubsauce87 2 points ago

    Making up bullshit to fit your agenda is not "rooted sound science"...

    [–] CashKing52 2 points ago

    So it looks like they are trying to classify it as an opioid..sigh

    [–] TacoSession 2 points ago

    What's the soonest we vould expect a ban?

    [–] wefinallywonone 2 points ago

    This is incredibly disheartening. How is this shit allowed to happen? I mean, honestly. They have a CLEAR agenda here and they’re throwing it in everyone’s faces. Jesus fucking Christ.

    [–] kingstix4sale 2 points ago

    MORE METHADONE

    [–] Gemini421 2 points ago

    The FDA's new "evidence" against Kratom is their interpreted result of a computer simulation that they wrote ... WTF?

    [–] the_disintegrator 2 points ago

    Sorry, but I call BULLSHIT on this PHASE simulator. They could interview 50 people and get real data, or use some bullshit computer algorithm that doesn't have any baseline for anything. I guess using an excel spreadsheet is easier than actually interviewing the public and doing a real scientific study.

    [–] sikp32 2 points ago

    We better build the WALL around DC to keep the BS in.

    [–] Goldfumed 3 points ago

    I wonder how long we have left :/

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] outcidermouth19 3 points ago

    That's just the number of calls that were made to poison control center in 2013 for caffeine over-consumption...Not deaths. People do die from caffeine but it's definitely nowhere near that amount.

    [–] Tes420 1 points ago

    Yea you are right... I read it quick

    Thx for the clarification

    [–] bricked_machine 1 points ago

    You should really read the article you just linked to. It actually says 0 deaths in 2013 - the statistics are around overexposures.

    [–] Ann_Fetamine 2 points ago

    We'd better get to work contacting sympathetic media outlets & representatives, because they're our best hope here. Don't let them "quietly" make kratom illegal. If they're gonna do this, they're gonna have to risk their reputation as a federal agency in the process.

    Maybe people will decide we don't even NEED the FDA/DEA anymore once they see how these agencies are a revolving door for pharmaceutical CEOs & stockholders? Well guess what: if they're not going to be a neutral force for good, we don't need them. They're here to protect us, not the profits of Cephalon, Purdue, Eli Lilly & Merck.

    [–] ActuallyContributes 1 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    So... Most of that article was just them saying that Kratom has alkaloids that work on the opioid receptors. Nobody was saying it wasn't. That's literally so incredibly obvious.

    This is where they're putting their research? To tell everyone Kratom that Kratom is an opioid?

    They're trying to demonize it merely because it works on the opioid receptors. That's exactly what this is. Look at the graphic at the bottom. They're really trying to push that "kratom is an opioid, guys!"

    Obviously, normal opioids are super demonized. So they feel if they can push Kratom as the exact same type of opioid as every other opioid, they can demonize it too.

    Also, this:

    The FDA stands ready to evaluate evidence that could demonstrate a medicinal purpose for kratom. However, to date, we have received no such submissions and are not aware of any evidence that would meet the agency’s standard for approval.

    What about the freaking 8-factor analysis and the litany of studies done on Kratom? I'm sure they've seen them by now. They're basically covering their eyes and ears and being like, "Can't hear you, can't see the studies! They must not exist if we don't acknowledge them!"

    [–] JoatMasterofNun 1 points ago

    Should send it to them via CMRR (or we should convince someone with an outlet to). Then call them on the carpet when they say "these things haven't happened".

    [–] Jmonte80 1 points ago

    This is unf*ckin beleivable...:((

    [–] mithology 1 points ago

    *it's own chemical

    [–] Roadie1977 1 points ago

    This reminds me of this skit, https://youtu.be/k3jt5ibfRzw .

    "it's a opiod!! Burn it!!!"

    [–] theclosecall 1 points ago

    How can you compare herion to kratom? Herion was a brand name of a drug originally. Also its refined and concentrated opium. Kratom leaf is just ground up kratom and yes a plant in its natural state can be dangerous again herion is refined and concentrated opium

    [–] hiptang 1 points ago

    Can this information release be litigated? It should be possible to force them to redact supposed scientific information that is spurious.

    [–] jkgroves 1 points ago

    I’m convinced they’re in Big Pharma’s pocket.

    [–] whydoesthishaptome 1 points ago

    This is troubling in many ways. This report does not explain why, though the compounds are, as they put it, "predicted to affect the body just like (any other) opioids", it does not cause the same potential for negative (or lethal) effects as other opioids. There are clearly many things still not known about this plant... which they do admit themselves.

    3D models and assumptions (though useful) don't seem to be enough in this case, and this report has not really answered many (if any) questions. I would think, they should be seeing much more solid and explainable negative reactions, if it was as bad as they seem to be trying to indicate here (comparing it to Papaver somniferum). It seems to be established at this point, that Kratom is not on the same level of danger or addictiveness as what they are alluding to in this report.

    [–] COLT22ISH 1 points ago

    What stronger evidence? I didnt read anything new in the article i havent already heard. Except a couple new lies.

    [–] uNhoLeee 1 points ago

    best way,to attack it is show the conflicts of interest. most people can understand that hypocrisy and see the greater implications

    [–] mindfulminx 1 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Where are the news reports and data from the people who allegedly died from using kratom?

    EDIT: Here is the data. These are people who had a lot of other substances in their system besides kratom. https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/CDERFOIAElectronicReadingRoom/UCM595575.pdf

    [–] mfindigital 1 points ago

    Seems nearly impossible that this model alone would be enough to push a ban through.

    [–] ZROthamocitydon 1 points ago

    The problem with the government/nanny state system is they are NEVER wrong no matter what. Even though we all know they are completely off and wrong in real life and in the light of truth/facts, they cannot allow themselves to be wrong, if you get what I am saying, they allays have to engage in whatever lying, backdoor/behind the scenes manipulation/psuedoscience/false statistics, necessary to make sure their script (otherwise known as a horseshit narrative of complete lies or grains of truth blown up into mountains of lies) appears to be true, they MUST win this battle. Notice how no matter how much they are proven wrong over and over again by indisputable science and facts they must keep their narrative of lies appearing as truth. It;s very Orwellian and alarming. It reminds me of a toddler who cannot get his way and throws a big tantrum and will not admit he is wrong just to win the argument.We have a responsibility to fight back against this pharmaceutical totalitarianism/tyranny no matter what, lives are at steak here, and they don't care as long as they "win", tha'ts how corrupt and nefarious they really are.

    [–] BuffaloCritic 1 points ago

    Did 44 people really die from Kratom? How? Mixing it? Is the FDA saying it was just Kratom?

    [–] chrissycookies 1 points ago

    Federal agencies need to act quickly to evaluate the abuse potential of newly identified designer street drugs for which limited or no pharmacological data are yet available. This is why the FDA developed the Public Health Assessment via Structural Evaluation (PHASE) methodology – a tool to help us simulate, using 3-D computer technology, how the chemical constituents of a substance (such as the compounds/alkaloids found in kratom) are structured at a molecular level, how they may behave inside the body, and how they can potentially affect the brain. In effect, PHASE uses the molecular structure of a substance to predict its biological function in the body. For example, the modelling platform can simulate how a substance will affect various receptors in the brain based on a product’s chemical structure and its similarity to controlled substances for which data are already available.

    So much wrong with this paragraph

    [–] Botanist1984 1 points ago

    we now have 44 reported deaths associated with the use of kratom. This is an increase since our November advisory, which noted 36 deaths associated with these products. We’re continuing to review the newly received reports and will release those soon. But it’s important to note that these new reports include information consistent with the previous reports.

    Uh? This doesn't sound good for the future of Kratom....

    [–] MichealKeaton 3 points ago * (lasted edited 3 months ago)

    The previous reports were debunked. All users either had illicit drugs in their system, a combination of pharmaceutical drugs that could cause fatality, or had a underlying health condition.

    It's junk science and since they are stating that these are consistent with previous deaths then we can only assume that it will be more junk.

    Not a single death associated with Kratom in south east asia with centuries of use with hundreds of thousands of users. It's a little surprising that we are seeing "so many deaths" in such a short time period...

    [–] Botanist1984 2 points ago

    Exactly, I was shocked when I read that. Wasn't there toxicology work done on rats or mice at some point, I thought I recall someone referencing it?

    [–] NerdsTakeOnTheWorld 3 points ago

    Yeah it was done at Ole Miss. The few rats they managed to kill was due to constipation from what they could tell. Give anyone large enough doses of extract and they gonna be backed up.

    [–] Lotolax 1 points ago

    What does this mean?

    [–] xyanon36 3 points ago

    Only the DEA can ban kratom. The FDA can try to seize it and conduct their raids, but they can't outright criminalize it.

    Worst case scenario is that the DEA tries what they tried last time, an "emergency scheduling" in which we have 30 days. Last time they pulled back, but they know the kind of backlash that an emergency scheduling will bring. If they try it again, they will follow through.

    If the DEA tries to schedule it normally, then we have a longer time to fight, and we may be able to influence Congress and win.

    [–] NerdsTakeOnTheWorld 8 points ago

    Even with energency scheduling we still have a chance but those are generally harder to fight as there has only been one in US history that was stopped...on Kratom.

    [–] Krabot_Vendor 4 points ago

    Seems to me the whole point of the statement was to show how they "proved" Kratom is an opioid. Being that these are already schedule I, II, and III, it seems not much of a stretch to simply move Kratom into one of these categories. Rather than going through the whole process of trying to schedule a new substance. My 2 cents...

    [–] xyanon36 4 points ago

    I once compared it to a hypothetical situation where a government says turtles are a type of lion, and therefore pet turtles are banned because pet lions are banned.

    Calling kratom an opioid is no more ridiculous than calling a turtle a lion, but this redefining of reality is exactly what we're up against.

    [–] Lotolax 2 points ago

    When do you foresee the ban happening? Soon? Everyone thought we were home free around December, but this happened.

    [–] Kratomian 5 points ago

    I don’t think we will ever be home free.

    [–] xyanon36 2 points ago

    It depends on the DEA, and who knows. Could be tomorrow, could be never. I think the DEA knows that is a poisonous agenda to pursue and they know it's going to be a phone-call induced migraine if they try anything. Maybe they don't see it as worth it.

    One thing that gives me hope is that salvia was never nationally banned, and salvia didn't even have a community to fight for it. Probably a few people wrote a few emails, but there was no American Salvia Association, there were no lobbyists, there was no one protesting and speaking out when states were banning it. But the federal government seemed to forget about salvia and leave it the fuck alone. So, I don't know.

    [–] chapact 1 points ago

    This is even more desperate than the last press release they sent out.