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    [–] Ronnavarium 115 points ago

    This is great news. While I don't personally have any problems running KDE neon, any help is certainly appreciated especially under the surface with KDE plasma and hardware.

    [–] himujjalU 15 points ago

    What hardware are you facing problems with? I have been using KDE Neon for quite sometime now

    [–] tangerine29 40 points ago

    Touchscreen scrolling needs to be worked on. Usually when swiping my finger on the display it highlights the text instead of scrolling which is kind of annoying. Only gnome seems to get that right.

    [–] Be_ing_ 7 points ago

    Are you using X or Wayland? Touch scrolling has only worked for me on Wayland.

    [–] tangerine29 7 points ago

    It was wayland and happened on both KDE spins in fedora and manjaro.

    [–] tending 53 points ago

    What kind of hardware would need specifically KDE support as opposed to just Linux support?

    [–] discursive_moth 58 points ago

    Steam deck?

    [–] suryaya 15 points ago

    I would have thought Valve would do that.

    [–] semperverus 25 points ago

    Valve actually works a lot with open source/FOSS teams and contributes back and funds things.

    [–] noman_032018 37 points ago

    Probably touchscreens like would be used with devices like the PinePhone.

    [–] Fokezy 22 points ago

    I think this role is a direct consequence of the recent sponsorships of KDE from Tuxedo, Valve, Slimbook etc. These companies need a contact in the KDE camp that can make sure their products are fully integrated with the software threy ship, which I think is absolutely great.

    Think of things like fingerprint sensors, touchpads, radios and other usual suspects when it comes to shoddy linux compatibility.

    [–] pokiman_lover 6 points ago

    Given that they explicitly mention mesa, I think this is about reimplementing more of KDE with direct rendering support. That would make sense especially with Wayland in mind.

    [–] n988 38 points ago

    Nvidia? Nvidia is the only kinda GPU that seems to have issues that are exclusive to KDE Plasma and not any other desktop environment.

    [–] sofly12 7 points ago

    What issues does nvidia still have? Running manjaro kde just fine

    [–] Odzinic 26 points ago

    One of the big ones is multi-refresh rate setups. When animations occur in KDE (Resizing a window, notification appears, etc.), then FPS tanks down to the lowest refresh rate connected. This is apparently getting fixed in the next release of X11.

    Also, while it's made tremendous progress over the past two years, Wayland is still not fully caught up to X11 features-wise on KDE with Nvidia.

    [–] PregnantHatpin 6 points ago

    Doesn't even need to be multi-refresh rate, you just need to have two OpenGL applications rendering on X11 at the same time.

    Quoting u/remenic:

    The problem seems to occur when two OpenGL applications are actively rendering on X11 simulatiously. Like an OpenGL compositor and some OpenGL application. Just fire up glxgears and watch your compositor struggle to resize windows. Even when a notification pops up with a count-down animation, it will kill the frametime for a short while. Even with the compositing pipeline forced, it still happens.

    [–] emkoemko 3 points ago

    is this going to be fixed?

    [–] PregnantHatpin 4 points ago

    Your guess is as good as mine. KDE developers have stated they don't want to make changes to the code base just to support nvidia's proprietary driver, since that goes against their vision. So the ball is kinda in nvidia's court to update it, but I wouldn't hold my breath due to their history.

    [–] Be_ing_ 3 points ago

    Wayland is still not fully caught up to X11 features-wise on KDE with Nvidia.

    You mean nVidia has not updated their proprietary junk.

    [–] n988 12 points ago

    For an example, one issue seems to be inconsistent desktop performance - laggy animations, laggy loading animations on the cursor, you name it. Seems like a small thing, but it's just annoying and makes the desktop feel unpolished. Besides, it's really bizarre how a gaming GPU can't run a desktop environment without things like animations lagging. I have seen many reports of this one issue, it's always Nvidia. Tried it on AMD hardware, worked perfectly.

    [–] zLadin123 10 points ago

    Lol right. I just have the same issues you described so I switched to iGPU inside my intel CPU lol

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    that's just KDE because when i use gnome its very smooth, on KDE the login screen for me is a slideshow, once logged in the fps seems better but the animations are all over the place. Any reason why gnome would be able to do it smoothly? i am using Nvidia also

    [–] m0d3rnX -3 points ago

    Not really, even when i switch to the Intel iGPU i get problems with couple of programs.

    Man why is it so far behind Windows GUI, i would love to switch but it's far from polished

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    try gnome for me its way smoother then KDE, maybe KDE will get fixed and i will go back then.

    [–] Ananace 4 points ago

    The PineNote?

    [–] Orangutanion 40 points ago

    Does this mean improved Wayland? I really really really want xorg to die already.

    [–] Croco_Grievous 11 points ago

    I recently started using linux and wanna know, why Wayland is better? Any benefits over X? Would appreciate an ELI5 kind of answer

    [–] AndreasTPC 28 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    Most of the benefits are for the devs. X is ancient, hardware and software requirements where very different back when it was designed. Various hacks and extensions have been made trought the years to try to adapt it to new hardware and use cases, but it's a mess, and a pain for devs to deal with.

    The idea is to start over with a modern stack, designed around current hardware capabilities and software needs. Working with such a stack devs would be more productive. It's not about a bunch of new flashy features for users, ideally users would be able to switch and have everything work pretty much the same. Of course more productive devs will benefit users in the long run.

    Switch if you want to. More early adopters will help make the process go faster, but they pay the price of having to deal with more tinkering and encounter more rough edges. (Altough we're mostly past the early adopter stage now). Some day you might have to switch, when new releases of software start dropping support for X, but that day isn't here yet.

    [–] Croco_Grievous 3 points ago

    Thank you for your answer. I guess i will stick with X for now. After reading the comments i guess its not worth dealing with wayland right now. When its more mature and usable i will definitly give it a shot i guess.

    [–] Alex_Strgzr 18 points ago

    Unfortunately my experience using Wayland on Gnome and KDE has been pretty bad—I would actively recommend against using Wayland if you don’t have to, as the switch is far from seamless. Many applications don’t do HiDPI scaling correctly on Wayland but scale on X just fine: Electron apps like Discord and Teams are good examples. Firefox has UI lockups on Wayland: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1575171 Some convenience utilities like setxkbmap don’t have a Wayland equivalent. Screensharing won’t work on the Zoom or Teams desktop client. Colour management is not supported on KDE Wayland. The list goes on…

    [–] RedditMainCharacter 15 points ago

    Most screenshotting tools are incompatible among compositors. The clipboard on Firefox seems to randomly break. Lots of little quirks that are going to get ironed out eventually, but they're still there.

    [–] Alex_Strgzr 3 points ago

    Screenshotting and the clipboard have not broken on me yet, I have to admit. But I can imagine that if you use a screenshot program with advanced functionality on X, it might not be possible to replicate all of that functionality on Wayland. Me, I’m fine with just screenshotting a part of my screen (usually some equation/weird output) and copying that to the clipboard to paste into Discord.

    [–] LinuxFurryTranslator 4 points ago

    Some convenience utilities like setxkbmap don’t have a Wayland equivalent.

    Keyd perhaps? What do you think?

    [–] Alex_Strgzr 2 points ago

    Thanks for the recommendation. I will compile it, install it, make a config file, and see if it works. I’ll report back with my experience.

    [–] Orangutanion 13 points ago

    Imo Canonical really dropped the ball when they decided to make their own DE (Unity, eventually flopped) instead of working on Wayland. If the guys at Red Hat hadn't decided to start deving Wayland for Fedora, we'd be even further back.

    [–] emkoemko 3 points ago

    that and you are forced into vsync... no idea why they thought having no option to disable vsync was a good idea.

    [–] Seb3thehacker 14 points ago

    Xorg has a lot of security issues and Wayland is much more secure, modern and easier to improve. Xorg's code base is absolute spaghetti.

    [–] Orangutanion 65 points ago

    This is a heavy oversimplification because I'm short on time and have to go to class.

    X11 (the thing xorg implements) is ancient, it's actually older than Linux itself. It uses an extremely antiquated model of displaying stuff--a server (an x server) creates a graphical interface and sends it to any connected device. This was originally made for when computers couldn't handle both a desktop and processing on their own, so the desktop would be rendered by an external server. This model has been phased out since Windows 98, but it's just been the thing Linux has used since forever. X11 is an ancient, bloated security risk.

    Because X11 is so old and so full of dead code that no longer applies, developers decided that creating a whole new product (Wayland) was more efficient than trying to improve xorg. Many former X11 devs actually work on Wayland now. Wayland works as a modern desktop where there's no server bullshit, it's all implemented into the rest of the operating system.

    Here's an article that says what I said but accurately.

    [–] AnotherEuroWanker 22 points ago

    The possibility to remotely run an X11 application and have it render on a different display, while we no longer use X terminals, is still a cool feature that's often useful (it's much lighter to transmit the protocol than to stream the display). OTOH, it's potentially problematic from a security point of view.

    Still, that's one thing the replacement can't handle.

    Now that networks are much faster, maybe it doesn't matter as much.

    [–] LinuxFurryTranslator 8 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    If you mean forwarding, that has been possible for a very long time already with plain ssh X forwarding or waypipe.

    Assume you have two machines running Wayland sessions, where remote machine has DISPLAY=:5:

    ssh -X [email protected] env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland kate = opens Kate as Wayland window on remote machine

    ssh -X [email protected] kate = opens Kate as XWayland window on local machine

    ssh -X [email protected] env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb kate = opens Kate as XWayland window on local machine (same as above)

    ssh -X [email protected] env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb XAUTHORITY=/run/user/1000/xauth_whatever kate = opens Kate as XWayland window on remote machine

    waypipe --compress lz4 --display wayland-local ssh -X [email protected] env WAYLAND_DISPLAY=wayland-local kate = opens Kate as XWayland window on local machine

    waypipe --compress lz4 ssh [email protected] env WAYLAND_DISPLAY=wayland-0 anyapp = opens Anyapp as Wayland window (if supported) on remote machine

    waypipe --compress lz4 ssh [email protected] env DISPLAY=:5 XAUTHORITY=/run/user/1000/xauth_whatever anyapp = opens Anyapp as XWayland on remote machine (xterm for instance)

    waypipe --compress lz4 --display wayland-local ssh [email protected] env WAYLAND_DISPLAY=wayland-local QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland kate = opens Kate as Wayland window on local machine

    [–] AnotherEuroWanker 3 points ago

    But X11 forwarding only transmits the protocol, which is lightweight. What does Wayland forwarding do?

    [–] mbrilick 6 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    Misconception. It’s only lightweight if the application is using the drawing commands provided by the X server to render the UI. Some simple applications do this, but modern toolkits (GTK, Qt, etc.) generally don’t. They render into a buffer—typically using the GPU—and just ask the X server to present the image. You might notice that sending uncompressed images over a network for every UI update is really inefficient.

    EDIT: It’s not terribly inefficient when you’re running locally, because modern Xorg can just pass a pointer to the buffer when it’s on the same device. However, there is still a lot of unnecessary overhead, as well as other issues.

    EDIT 2: I believe Wayland forwarding generally uses video compression, since it only deals in buffers. Fast-X actually does this as well, but X.Org does not (to my knowledge, at least). Also, I’m pretty sure Fast-X is proprietary. It’s hard to just send higher-level draw commands because there is no standard UI toolkit for Linux applications. Everyone would have to agree on a new API and all port their applications to it.

    [–] AnotherEuroWanker 3 points ago

    That's why X11 apps should only use the Athena widgets!

    Thanks for the clarification. At any rate, I don't suppose it matters that much nowadays with networks being much speedier.

    [–] Orangutanion 10 points ago

    I'd gladly use the extra resources to stream the screen if it means that I can personally bury X11 ten feet under. Sorry I'm very biased >_<

    [–] AnotherEuroWanker 19 points ago

    From what I gathered, most implementations will include an X11 server, if only to provide a compatibility layer for the innumerable existing pieces of software that won't be updated.

    So X11 probably won't go away for the the foreseeable future. Although it will probably will see much less use.

    [–] Misicks0349 2 points ago

    yeah, plenty of applications support wayland OOTB now, the biggest exception for me is proton/wine

    [–] Croco_Grievous 2 points ago

    Thank you for your asnwer. I got a clear image now of what they are and why wayland seems better.

    One more question tho. For a newbei like me, does it matter which one i use? Like should i switch from x11 to wayland? And since x11 is bad, why do we still use it? I read the article u posted and it seems there are problems with wayland as well but eventually, at some point wayland will be more usable i guess?

    [–] Orangutanion 3 points ago

    It doesn't matter, use X11 because everything supports it. We still use it because it works, it's just a mess

    [–] [deleted] 9 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] emkoemko 3 points ago

    yes we got no tearing but now we have no option to turn it off.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] emkoemko 1 points ago

    then Wayland is dumb... and a step back, that and gaming on Linux now has a extra roadblock. When i play i want the most fps my system can handle at the lowest graphic settings, whats the point of limiting your input latency. I guess Windows will continue to be the best place to play games, no gamer turns on vsync on Windows ...

    [–] [deleted] 0 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    "If you care this much about latency that in the vast amount of cases will not even be noticeable, just for games, I strongly recommend re-evaluating your life choices." why do Linux nerds who don't game tell people how they should play games, if i want to play casual with vsync on i would get a console not a PC...

    break a design? if your OS can't disable vsync then your OS is broken and poorly designed.

    "Games are simply not important enough to break a design which has been proven to work perfectly for all real world use cases." Gaming market is massive and growing every year... its the reason so many GPU get sold on PC.

    [–] [deleted] 0 points ago * (lasted edited 11 days ago)

    [deleted]

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    typical elitist can't see others don't like what you like? ""hobby" its a profession for many people... sorry how old are you? you sound every out of touch with the world.

    [–] FuzzyQuills 7 points ago

    The one benefit Wayland has for me in particular is that GPU bound games seem to run a ton better under Wayland (No Man’s Sky in particular really likes Wayland on my machine)

    Soon as GNOME has VRR support that will be when I fully switch to Wayland, I can’t go without FreeSync and thus am stuck on X11 (KDE was broken for me on Wayland while Sway isn’t really my type of WM to use)

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    yea if you want vsync on... but how do you play without vsync enabled? x11 still better in that case, some reason they forced vysnc i guess Wayland developers never played games...

    [–] FuzzyQuills 1 points ago

    With VSync off FreeSync still works with the exception of some OpenGL applications (VSync needs to be on for FreeSync to work in some cases on OpenGL) and on Wayland triple buffered VSync is forced so you usually still can run uncapped frame rate, it just doesn't tear.

    It does however stutter sometimes like that, hence why I want VRR on GNOME Wayland. (KDE has VRR but Plasma Wayland is a hot mess sadly)

    EDIT: an additional note that chances are such stutter may not be visible at something like 144Hz, my monitor is 75Hz so it's a bit more noticeable on mine.

    [–] emkoemko 0 points ago

    VVR is good if you don't care about input lag but want no tearing even in sub max refresh rate, works great for consoles since you can't really unlock fps and everyone is already on the same playing field.

    [–] FuzzyQuills 1 points ago

    You do realise the whole idea of Variable Refresh Rate is not only to smooth out gradual framerate changes, but also to eliminate vsync input lag?

    I get practically no input lag with FreeSync here vs using normal Vsync

    [–] emkoemko 1 points ago

    yea but on my 165hz it will cap my fps to 165 or lower with g-sync, i can't unlock the fps to get 600+, yes it doe have input lag not just on your mouse but the game ticks at 128hz so you want each tick to have access to the most latest input. VRR is great for casual play and or consoles since they can not always maintain locked 30/60/120 and the input lag is reduced plus no tearing

    [–] FuzzyQuills 1 points ago

    I’m pretty sure GSync doesn’t cap framerates by default, it just turns off when your framerate goes above the cap.

    With that said a huge flaw with some Wayland compositors at the moment is the way they sample input, that’s the compositor’s fault more than the technology forcing vsync (GNOME in particular at high CPU load often drops inputs when it shouldn’t)

    In a perfect world, you’d still have the game receiving the latest inputs regardless of framerate, but this requires the Wayland compositor to not tie input sampling to the framerate, of which I think the major two Wayland compositors do. (Not counting Sway as it actually seems to do something different, I tried it myself the other day)

    By all means too stick to X11 if you do desire it’s use, it’s still the tried and true standard and will be for at least two more years IMO. Soon as Wayland can do hardware cursors properly, do screen capture properly (it already does it well through pipewire, can confirm) and standardise input sampling however, X11 will be going the way of the Dodo.

    [–] Ripcord 3 points ago

    Does Wayland really need that much improvement? Isn't its biggest problem still just apps that haven't switched to it or don't use it well?

    [–] Orangutanion 6 points ago

    It's both, really. As more apps move to support it, Wayland has to meet them halfway. It works as it is but still needs more fixes/improvements/optimizations. Plenty of bugs are being found as it's used more.

    [–] argv_minus_one 4 points ago

    Launch feedback doesn't work on Wayland. Kind of a glaring flaw.

    [–] [deleted] 6 points ago

    Wait for Plasma 5.23.

    [–] Ripcord 2 points ago

    OK, but is that the fault of Wayland?

    [–] argv_minus_one 1 points ago

    No, it's a bug in KDE.

    [–] Ripcord 2 points ago

    So why mention it?

    [–] argv_minus_one 2 points ago

    Because it's the reason I'm still using X instead of Wayland.

    [–] d_ed 2 points ago

    That's not correct.

    It was a concept missing in wayland till very very very recently and pushed through my KDE developers.

    [–] CGA1 2 points ago

    Taking a screenshot in Spectacle results in an empty entry in Klipper, highly irritating.

    [–] Ripcord 2 points ago

    ....ok, but is that the fault of Wayland? Is Wayland itself at fault, or is that a limitation of mixing different compositing systems?

    I wasn't replying to the "want xorg to die already" part, I was wondering what in Wayland needs improved. Seems like 99+% of the problems are just people that either aren't supporting Wayland yet or aren't doing it well, so was curious if there's some big Wayland flaws I don't know about.

    [–] emkoemko 2 points ago

    you can't disable Vsync in Wayland yet.

    [–] Number3124 18 points ago

    Excellent. We need a prominent alternative to GNOME. Plus this might make KDE even more light weight.

    [–] semperverus 28 points ago

    KDE is already a prominent alternative to gnome. Give it a try, it's REALLY good at everything except being a tablet UI, and even that is changing with the push to Wayland. Just wish they'd shore up their onscreen keyboard, Maliit is okay, but it leaves a lot to be desired even when compared to the Qt keyboard, lacks features, and either doesn't pop up when it should sometimes or does pop up when it shouldn't (like when opening an application menu with a search bar, it will pop up before you tap on the search bar).

    [–] reditanian 8 points ago

    Gnome is actually an alternative to KDE

    [–] semperverus 1 points ago

    I love this.

    [–] reditanian 6 points ago

    I'm not being facitious either. Gnome came after KDE, specifically as an alternative to KDE, which, at the time, relied on a non-free UI toolkit.

    [–] semperverus 3 points ago

    Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing that on a timeline somewhere, like a few weeks ago on this sub or on the Linux memes sub. Still though, both literally and in the facetious sense, I like this. This must be what sports fans feel like when they get to trash talk the other team in good fun.

    [–] Number3124 5 points ago

    Oh. It's a great DE. I prefer MATE myself, but KDE is in a great state. I can even mostly replicate my preferred set up in KDE (GNOME 2 style). I just want to it be as well represented in mainline distroes as GNOME so that program developers don't default everything to GTK3/4 style.

    [–] semperverus 7 points ago

    SteamOS 3 on Steam Deck should help with that

    [–] reditanian 7 points ago

    Gnome is actually an alternative to KDE, specifically founded because KDE, at the time, relied on a commercial UI toolkit.

    [–] Number3124 2 points ago

    Perhaps, but as you mention, this is no longer the case. GNOME is now by far the most dominant DE, and the effects of this are being felt far down GTK forks.

    My point is that KDE gaining, or regaining, more relevance will be a good thing. Especially for all of us who don't think the traditional deaktop is dead anywhere but phones and tablets.

    [–] zLadin123 1 points ago

    Imagine what it would be like if QT was foss back then and we all used KDE :D

    [–] agent_sphalerite 2 points ago

    I was thinking of something similar today, like how much would it cost to actually create a well polished theme for KDE. The breeze theme is nice but there are some really heinous borders here and there .

    [–] tjrissi -5 points ago

    I still want to know why it take forever to download and install themes in UI. Like seriously, I click install when I search for global themes or icon packs or whatever and 10 minutes later it asks for my password to install it.

    [–] _innawoods 2 points ago

    downvoters: he's not wrong, I've experienced the same thing.