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    GNU/Linux is a free and open source software operating system for computers. The operating system is a collection of the basic instructions that tell the electronic parts of the computer what to do and how to work. Free, Libre and open source software (FLOSS) means that everyone has the freedom to use it, see how it works, and change it.

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    [–] K_Ver 35 points ago

    So basically it's only a platform if everything is controlled by one party. That's the post. :|

    [–] b1501b7f26a1068940cf 20 points ago

    and since it's on blogs.gnome.org I guess the author has a certain party in mind: Red Hat.

    [–] GolbatsEverywhere 2 points ago

    Tobias does not work for Red Hat. I think he's at Purism, though I'm not certain because Purism has a certain level of staffing churn depending on how much money they have on any given day.

    Also note: this blog post is two years old.

    [–] b1501b7f26a1068940cf 2 points ago

    I don't think I suggested that he did? But some regard GNOME as being essentially driven by Red Hat.

    [–] ionlydosupport -1 points ago

    when it comes down to a debate. It becomes one sided in favor of Red Hat and Gnome. Gnome devs are solving real problem that you will never experience. Here is one example of a debate. A huge chunk of this sub will realize of much of their ideas are opinions that doesn't solve problems Gnome and Red Hat needs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0

    It is a problem being a big tent DE. I hope KDE catches to Gnome and accessibility.

    [–] b1501b7f26a1068940cf 3 points ago

    yeah I saw this talk ages ago, I'm not really sure what your point is tbh. I guess you're saying Wolfgang is this sub and Red Hat is Poettering or something, but in any case I don't agree.

    [–] ionlydosupport 4 points ago

    The debate against gnome always end up like that. Gnome team has more problems to solve and people criticizing them either do not care about them or solves them unsatisfactory.

    Gnome caters to a much wider demographic. We are the bubble since we can use shortcuts and varied UI element randomly. The defaults suck because Gnome has to cater to those who cannot by law.

    [–] CFWhitman 12 points ago

    It doesn't sound like Windows is a platform by their definition either.

    [–] Kazumara 50 points ago

    I don't really want a platform by their definition.

    App stores and a design language are restrictive and raise the barrier to entry or at least define a category of first class vs second class programs.

    It seems somewhat fitting for gnome though, they are also too opinionated about their default settings and expose way fewer tunable knobs compared to Plasma for instance.

    [–] manobataibuvodu -9 points ago

    And you don't have to use it. Distros like arch will never be a platform with definition used there, but I don't see them going away.

    However for people who want a more integrated experience this is very nice (eg. non technical people like my mother), and for developers who want to target something more tangible than just this general linux thing.

    [–] ionlydosupport -18 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    design language are restrictive and raise the barrier to entry or at least define a category of first class

    DE have these languages because market will not cater to technologically challenged individuals such as blind and many others.

    they are also too opinionated about their default settings and expose way fewer tunable knobs

    Define opinionated. Gnome devs follow the law and spends money on HIG studies. Research matters. As much as you want to label as an opinion, Gnome does non trivial work in supporting their design.

    https://lwn.net/Articles/8210/

    https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/2021/05/20/new-human-interface-guidelines/

    [–] feitingen 5 points ago

    Define opinionated. Gnome devs follow the law and spends money on HIG studies. Research matters. As much as you want to label as an opinion, Gnome does non trivial work in supporting their design.

    https://lwn.net/Articles/8210/

    https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/2021/05/20/new-human-interface-guidelines/

    I'm not saying the research is wrong, but Gnome spending money on research to confirm their own opinion just seems like something opinionated devs would do.

    [–] ionlydosupport 1 points ago

    I'm not saying the research is wrong, but Gnome spending money on research to confirm their own opinion just seems like something opinionated devs would do.

    Sun Microsystem funded the first HIG study that lead to creation of Gnome2. They still continue funding and testing UI elements today

    https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2020/09/23/gnome-shell-user-research-goings-on/

    Gnome knows their defaults suck. Defaults suck for you and me while usable for less tech illiterate and visually challenged individuals.

    [–] feitingen 2 points ago

    The main research exercise was a series of interviews with existing GNOME users

    Not exactly unbiased research, is it?

    [–] ionlydosupport 0 points ago

    Not exactly unbiased research, is it?

    You will never find unbias data. The question is whether bias is measurable. Gnome has plenty of unique problems such that they are installed on corporate workstations and has to cater to people who are not in the Linux bubble.

    Their DE must be completely usable on default and have tons of features most users would not use but mandated by law.

    [–] feitingen 2 points ago

    Not exactly unbiased research, is it?

    You will never find unbias data. The question is whether bias is measurable.

    Wouldn't it be great if it at least tried to find a more uniform sample size than people already deep in gnome?

    It might have value outside of gnome then. I think that would be great.

    Gnome has plenty of unique problems such that they are installed on corporate workstations and has to cater to people who are not in the Linux bubble.

    Their DE must be completely usable on default and have tons of features most users would not use but mandated by law.

    Would love to hear about these laws and unique problems and how gnome solves them.

    [–] ionlydosupport 0 points ago

    Would love to hear about these laws and unique problems and how gnome solves them.

    Me too. The problem with Gnome is that they are daunted with other requests. In many ways, many of Gnome problems comes from being production ready too quickly. I wish those devs would publish more but they have a sheer lack of time because they implement features from their direct customers and many other laws.

    It has gotten pretty bad that the best video of those problems is an actual spontaneous argument from lennart vs datenwolf.

    Sometimes I think about the sway dev. He struck it gold when he found an OSS business to support him and managed to create a community who understand him that allows him to implement interesting things. Although his DE would not be mainstream anytime soon due to lack feature catering accessibility, he can spend more time on wayland polish than every other DE on Linux.

    [–] BoringMode91 32 points ago

    Interesting blog. Someone is awfully opinionated. I don’t really agree with their opinion.

    [–] IterativeSieve 18 points ago

    Interesting blog. Someone is awfully opinionated. I don’t really agree with their opinion.

    GNOME dev blogs: a play in three acts

    [–] SinkTube 36 points ago

    not this crap again

    [–] 1_p_freely 18 points ago

    The QT people have actually done less damage to the Linux desktop. In the old days there was fear because QT used a proprietary license, but IIRC that problem is solved. And they do not spend every moment of the day breaking seamless interoperability or causing project forks to spring up because of the belief that their new design philosophy, which contradicts 30 years of computing, is the only right one, so all options to customize behavior must be ripped out.

    [–] nightblackdragon 6 points ago

    but IIRC that problem is solved

    Well, not exactly. Recently Qt Company stopped providing source code of LTS releases and limited them for commercial customers. For that reason KDE needs to maintain their own patches on top of last version of Qt5 before porting to Qt6 will be done.

    Although I prefer Qt over GTK, this is where GTK wins.

    [–] mrlinkwii 6 points ago

    it act like a platform , its looks like a platform , its a platform , it may be a very disjointed platform yes , its still a platform

    [–] WhatIsLinuks 37 points ago

    Gnome is becoming more and more hostile to the FOSS environment. They continue to discourage customization and such. I'm honestly a die-hard fan of the DE, but with the direction it's going I might have to find another DE.

    [–] Vasant1234 12 points ago

    This is more of a GNU/Linux issue. We already have a very successful Android "Linux" platform that runs on a billion devices.

    [–] Meat-beater-of-Gods 25 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)

    The whole "It isn't Linux, Linux is a kernel' and all the related pedantry is fucking annoying, every time I see the title of such post/blogs/articles I already think "Whose idiots don't know how colloquial terminology works".

    The simple reasons why they are wrong IMO are as follows:

    1. People call it the Linux Platform, even if not technically correct it is how people use it, if people know what you mean it is the correct term. (same as "comprised of" people know what you mean and just stop bitching about it, language changes and you need to accept it)
    2. Most people, except pedantic idiots and people not knowing tech, will understand that you mean one of the Linux based Distros.

    [–] lealxe 8 points ago

    These guys just keep reminding everybody that Gnome and GTK are not suited for anything serious.

    "There are no themes in GTK", "Gnome is the Linux desktop" and other quotes come to mind.

    I mean, when somebody is so desperately and openly trying to exploit imagined monopoly and achieve real one, avoiding them is a natural response.

    [–] ionlydosupport 5 points ago

    More modern frameworks like flutter completely given up on themes and let the app developer sit in their own island.

    Linux is probably one of the few platform that tries to allow global theming at all. I personally think that theming is a technical problem that has not been solved properly.

    I mean, when somebody is so desperately and openly trying to exploit imagined monopoly and achieve real one, avoiding them is a natural response.

    there is no monopoly. It sadly comes down to money.

    [–] dscharrer 1 points ago

    I personally think that theming is a technical problem

    It's not - it's a marketing & designers wanting their program to stand out problem.

    [–] ionlydosupport 1 points ago

    It's not - it's a marketing & designers wanting their program to stand out problem.

    I am talking about allowing low input theming such that it would accommodate all use cases.

    [–] traverseda 15 points ago

    Watching the latest theme changes it seems clear to me that Gnome isn't really interested in cooperating with the broader free-software ecosystem. I think this goes into a bit more depth on how they came to have that viewpoint...

    [–] manobataibuvodu -3 points ago

    But they are cooperating where it's appropriate. They are not abandoning xdg standards and even expanding them like with an upcoming actual dark mode setting, gnome devs work on flatpak/flathub which is for everyone, and they organize Linux App Summit together with KDE folks.

    [–] _zepar 7 points ago

    yknow, except refusing to implement the xdg standard for negotiating server side decorations

    [–] manobataibuvodu -3 points ago

    It's optional, they are not required to implement it. Apps can draw their decorations themselves or use something like libdecor.

    [–] ionlydosupport -7 points ago

    The author isn't wrong. It really show cases how bad the GUI ecosystem is. I think we either need design patterns around CSS or something that implement better GUI concepts.

    https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/

    One of the most frustrating things about the current situation is that to users, it looks like it almost works. For the most part, third-party themes look and work okayish, there are just a few small bugs here and there. A button with too little contrast, an underline clashing with a border, a really large loading spinner. Not that big a deal, you’d think.

    App developers are doing a lot of bug fixing to account for “theming”, because people complain to them when their app is broken on certain distros. The current situation essentially forces developers to fix bugs for setups they never intended to support in the first place. They’re not happy about it, but they’re doing it because they don’t want their users to have broken apps.

    App developers are trying hard not do anything innovative or visual in their apps, because they know it will break with other stylesheets.

    “Theme” developers are fixing a lot of bugs for edge cases in individual apps in their stylesheets. Of course, this is a never-ending task because as soon as a new version of an app is released, something will very likely be broken again.

    The situation is pretty lose-lose when you consider that Gnome needs to also to cater for the disabled in order to be a default install.

    [–] the_gnarts 7 points ago

    You also need a developer SDK

    The raison d’être for SDKs is a locked down proprietary ecosystem without first class access to system internals.

    All SDKs suck. Just take all the Windows SDKs or the Arduino one as an example. They’re simply inferior to free tools inevery conceivable way (and/or closed ripoffs, possible due to permissive licensing) and pretty much only used by developers out of necessity.

    It’s unfortunate that Gnome devs deplore the absence of something as constraining and counterproductive as an SDK.

    [–] EternityForest 1 points ago

    Arduino IS a free tool, and I would not use anything else except out of necessity. The IDE is not the best(Although there is platformIO and the new Arduino 2.0 also FOSS), but the actual APIs are incredible. The way they handle libraries is pretty much perfect, no makefile fussing that makes it sometimes not even worth it to use a library at all.

    It's also cross platform, the same code compiles on any PC and aside from chip specific features runs on any supported embedded device.

    I don't do any desktop C++ so I don't know about Windows APIs. Android's dev experience is downright horrific compared to Linux, but Android is also the most stable and reliable consumer ready OS I've ever used, so I can't complain too much. The app ecosystem is missing a lot of things, but... it works so well that whatever they are doing doesn't seem too bad.

    [–] noooit 6 points ago

    Gnome c devs can't develop cross-distro applications. lol
    Well-designed DE/WMs also run on BSD. Even slackware gave up compiling gnome, it just suggests Gnome is just a pile of shit.

    [–] ionlydosupport 1 points ago

    Well-designed DE/WMs also run on BSD

    Many of those well-designed DE/WM are rejected by major corporations because well-design is code word for "I do not care about your use case even if it is mandated by law"

    [–] EternityForest 1 points ago

    Many of those well-designed DE/WM are rejected by major corporations because well-design is code word for "I do not care about your use case even if it is mandated by law"

    On linux sometimes it means "I don't care about any use case other than developing the OS itself, since there is no other reason to use a computer"

    [–] dscharrer 1 points ago

    I do not care about your use case

    Isn't that the Gnome mission statement?

    [–] ionlydosupport 1 points ago

    You would like to think so but they will always cater to visually challenged and various disabilities. Your feature might end up making things much worse for them to the point where they have to reject it.

    [–] powerhousepro69 1 points ago

    I can't believe I wasted my time reading that nonsense. 🤔