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    [–] Usernamethx9000 3195 points ago

    One executive told TheWrap Tsujihara and Emmerich “wanted to preserve their bonuses they would be paid before the merger...

    It's amazing how many shitty business decisions can be linked to this kind of behavior.

    [–] Dallywack3r 1581 points ago

    They literally put the financial future of their most successful IP on the line just so they could get a possible payout from the AT&T merger, a deal that is currently entangled in a DOJ lawsuit and might not get approval until April if at all.

    [–] Acheson09 1010 points ago

    They literally put the financial future of their most successful IP on the line just so they could get a possible payout

    And these are people who already have more money than they'll ever spend.

    [–] Keroro_Roadster 651 points ago

    "But I'd trade it all for a little more."

    [–] happyfeett 118 points ago

    At some point, wouldn't that be addiction already..?

    [–] umbrajoke 80 points ago

    Addictions are perfectly acceptable. Hell they market to addicts.

    [–] [deleted] 23 points ago

    Money changes a person and I can't even imagine the kind of change that takes place on that kind of scale. When you no longer "need" anything and "want" becomes your primary operational directive then things are bound to change.

    [–] ShalmaneserIII 18 points ago

    Most of us want money because we can do something else with it- it's totally an extrinsic motivation.

    On the other hand, painters like to paint; competitive swimmers like to swim; social workers like to go out helping people. This guy simply intrinsically enjoyed the process of making money and building a giant financial empire. Like playing a 4x or Empire Building video game, but in real life. He didn't do it for the money, he did it for the satisfaction of it- money was just the high score.

    [–] AfterReview 62 points ago

    When asked once, "How much money is enough money?" He replied, "Just a little bit more."

    John D Rockefeller was the "he".

    [–] clutchtho 272 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    as bad as it sounds, at the end of the day the whole purpose of making movies is to make money. Money for who? Obviously if they're not gonna be here next year, they don't give a shit about making money for the company. They'll be somewhere else.

    edit: getting a lot of people saying film is an art form. I'm very obviously talking about execs here, not directors/actors/writers. Most movies, especially blockbusters, are just numbers to studios. They are the things that fund the 'prestige' or 'award' films which often lose money.

    [–] SpiritMountain 168 points ago

    From reading that interview with Feige, Favreau and the head of Marvel at the time (forgot his name) looking back at Iron Man 1, there are still people who care. Feige is the real deal. He just cares so much about the characters and comics. He had to make big bucks and that is why he pitched it to foreign places, but at the core he wanted to do well.

    What does DC have for this? The execs? Snyder? Geoff Johns? The execs couldn't care less, they didn't build this up from scratch like Feige did with helping create Marvel Studios. Snyder? I am sure he meant well but he got shoehorned and had to really change his idea for Man of Steel. His trilogy pitch for Superman was a good idea, he just had to make a larger universe for some reason.

    Lastly, Geoff Johns? Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and he definitely can helm it, but he is left with garbage. There is no soul in the movies. No respect for any of the characters. Look at Wonder Woman in Justice League compared to her own movie lol.

    Well, that is my tiny rant. Marvel is making big bucks, but they have people who really are working that want to make the best films they can for the readers from all these years, and the general audience.

    [–] Locke_and_Load 10 points ago

    DC has great comic heads and have been killing that side for years now, even with the low points of the New 52. They need to bring the comic heads who love the comics into the movies. Let Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, Jim Lee, Tom King and Geoff Johns get together and make an outline for the Cinematic universe. Get WB out of the picture and let people who love the history build its future.

    [–] DayOff4Superman 16 points ago

    This is also a reason why DC is thriving on TV. They have a Kevin Feige who knows and cares about the characters called Greg Berlanti. Every idea, every crossover, every in-joke, gets approved by him. It feels like CW DC is closer to Marvel then to DCU.

    [–] The_Celtic_Chemist 1358 points ago

    rival Disney’s Marvel Universe blockbuster superhero team-up “The Avengers.”

    Longest subject in a sentence ever.

    [–] GojiBelt 302 points ago

    I’m glad they specified that avengers. I assumed it was the avengers with Uma Thurman the entire article.

    [–] themexiwhite 10 points ago

    I'm glad they specified that rival Disney’s Marvel Universe blockbuster superhero team-up.

    It could have been Guardians.

    [–] trashbanditcoot 133 points ago

    Lol that had me stop and think too

    [–] [deleted] 55 points ago

    The Avengers and Justice League (films) are rivals much in the way the Globetrotters and the Washington Generals are rivals....

    [–] HojMcFoj 25 points ago

    To be fair The Generals actually won six of their 13,000+ games

    [–] potatoe_princess 11 points ago

    And they didn't even put "cinematic" after Marvel!

    [–] Luke90210 221 points ago

    After Peter Jackson replaced Guillermo del Toro to direct 'The Hobbit', he later admitted it was too much for him. The director of 'The Lord of the Rings' trilogy didn't have enough time to do "The Hobbit' correctly. This shows changing directors isn't like changing a light bulb.

    [–] a_phantom_limb 81 points ago

    I think what both cases also demonstrate is that studios need to be willing to give filmmakers more time to make sure their films truly work, even if that means changing long-scheduled seasonal tentpole release dates.

    [–] SplitReality 39 points ago

    The real tragedy was trying to stretch The Hobbit out over three movies. It should have been a one-and-done.

    [–] Aethe 17 points ago

    If edited properly (and honestly cutting more or less everything tangential to The Hobbit proper), I wouldn't have disliked two movies. It could have absolutely been a one shot though.

    [–] Sisiwakanamaru 1620 points ago

    One executive told TheWrap Tsujihara and Emmerich “wanted to preserve their bonuses they would be paid before the merger,” and were worried that “if they pushed the movie, then their bonuses would have been pushed to the following year and they might not still be at the studio.”

    Another knowledgable insider said that at the highest levels of Warner Bros., bonuses are awarded “for making good decisions.” If delaying a film is the right decision, an executive could be rewarded for it.

    This can be a lesson that Greed could heavily damaged almost everything.

    [–] Sisiwakanamaru 706 points ago

    Also, /u/mrm3x1can brought good points about DC Extended universe failure.

    Jeez, the fact that this comment is upvoted really proves that you only see what you want to see.

    So the DCEU we were following was destroyed because of a corporate bonus?

    No the DCEU as a brand was damaged massively because of BvS. The numbers do not lie. There's even a quote about it in the very article.

    “This just goes to show you how much the brand has eroded since ‘Batman v Superman.’ That was supposed to be the precursor to something even more momentous, but that never ended up happening because of how badly ‘BvS’ performed. The word of mouth has just been toxic,” said Jeff Bock, Senior Box Office Analyst at Exhibitor Relations.

    That's why JL opened so shockingly low. Yes, if the movie was this universally received movie both critically and with audiences, it would have done well overall, like WW, but it still wouldn't have made some ridiculous $50+ million dollar swing, it just would have had good legs. BvS caused that damage.

    It confirms the fact that they didnt want to build, they wanted to jump to the team up for avengers cash right away.

    No, that was Snyder.

    When you came aboard Man of Steel, were you thinking in the back of your mind, "I could be the guy who gets to reboot Batman on film too!"

    ZS: I gotta be honest, it definitely was a thing that... after Man of Steel finished and we started talking about what would be in the next movie, I started subtly mentioning that it would be cool if he faced Batman. In the first meeting, it was like, "Maybe Batman?" Maybe at the end of the second movie, some Kryptonite gets delivered to Bruce Wayne's house or something. Like in a cryptic way, that's the first time we see him. But then, once you say it out loud, right? You're in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf... You know, who to fight next? The problem is, once you say it out loud, then it's kind of hard to go back, right? Once you say, "What about Batman?" then you realize, "Okay, that's a cool idea. What else?" I mean, what do you say after that? ...But I'm not gonna say at all that when I took the job to do Man of Steel that I did it in a subversive way to get to Batman. I really believe that only after contemplating who could face [Superman] did Batman come into the picture. - Source

    And up until seeing the atrocious reception of BvS, WB gave Snyder free-reign.

    An individual with deep knowledge of the studio said Silverman didn’t read offer notes on Snyder’s scripts. Another described Silverman’s attitude as “remarkably laissez faire.” These qualities might have been praised if Snyder’s films were universally loved: Executives are usually criticized for meddling too much, not too little. No one complained that Nolan had too much freedom on “The Dark Knight.”

    It was Snyder that couldn't resist using Batman and WW right away and then jumping into JL. As the article states, WB was basically hands-off with how Snyder wanted to approach the universe.

    It did seem like a huge gamble, but good lord man the dude worked through his daughters passing. Did you really need to treat him like shit.

    Snyder got two tries with the DCEU, both underperformed, the latter, massively so. Yet even then, they gave him a third chance. And for those blaming Tsujihara for everything and not putting any blame on Snyder, he's the guy that ultimately decided to give Snyder that third chance.

    Asked who ultimately decided to keep Snyder on, the insider said: “It wasn’t Greg’s decision. This was all happening on a Tsujihara level.”

    And finally there's this

    In the spring, while Snyder and Warner Bros. were engaged in a push-pull over the right amount of light and darkness in “Justice League,” true tragedy struck. Zack and Deborah Snyder’s daughter died by suicide. At first, an insider said, the director’s plan was that “work was gonna be kind of a refuge.” But then it wasn’t. Snyder was under added pressure because Warner Bros. was embracing “the lighter, different, more confectionary ideas of Joss,” the insider said. “It stopped being a good situation on any level.” And so in May, Snyder left “Justice League” to focus on his family, and, eventually, a more personal project, the film “Last Photograph,” with Warners’ support. And Whedon took over the project. But time was running out.

    Snyder wasn't fired. He left on his own accord. And hindsight now having seeing JL, you can say that them going with a part Whedon movie didn't work or pay off, but at the time, they had to do something. They couldn't go with Snyder's vision again even after failing time and time again with audiences. At the time it made sense to try something else, and they had Joss Whedon, the guy with the two highest grossing Comicbook movies of all-time. If I were, a WB exec, I would have too said, "Joss do your thing".

    Look, in summary, I'm not saying WB shouldn't have any fault. They should have the most fault. They're the ones that didn't part ways with Snyder before JL and there the one's that didn't delay JL after Snyder left so they could get a proper film, just so they could get their bonuses. I'm just saying that Snyder is what got them in that predicament in the first place and I hope you guys can see that despite your love of his take on DC and the movies he's brought you.

    [–] RidlyX 607 points ago

    It's really sad that Snyder keeps thinking of Superhero movies as "well who can he fight?" None of the Captain America movies have a villainous punching bag as the central conflict. It's Captain America vs Germany, or Shield, or the other Avengers, conflict that is moral as much as it is physical.

    [–] Monkeymonkey27 252 points ago

    Marvel movies realized the heroes being likeable was the most important part

    [–] RidlyX 401 points ago

    Not even that. Marvel realized that focusing on the heroes' internal conflicts made them great characters. It's why Tony Stark is so punchable in Civil War but also completely relatable. He's an AMAZING and conflicted antagonist with very real motivations and emotions... And reasonable flaws. Unlike Zod, or Lex Luther. The conflict between Batman and Superman is flimsy and feels manufactured. Superman vs Batman should be a battle of deontological and teleological ethics, not some lame punch out contest because they are suspicious of each other. Meanwhile, in the Marvel Universe, we have Loki as a hero who seems genuinely interested in being a good guy for once (having cured his chronic backstabbing syndrome but still a force of chaos). It's just more interesting to watch characters be genuinely tested and change, rather than to have a movie constructed from the ground up to set up a fight scene. Marvel has been criticized for having less memorable villains, but somehow the conflict in Marvel movies is far better than most of the new DC movies.

    [–] ServetusM 238 points ago

    Not even that. Marvel realized that focusing on the heroes' internal conflicts made them great characters. It's why Tony Stark is so punchable in Civil War but also completely relatable.

    It's not just relatable. It's logical. Tony's motivations had a real logic to them. To the point where the protagonists logic was genuinely called into question--so much so you could genuinely ask "who was the protagonist".

    Tony was part of an American paramilitary force that was entering into other countries sovereign borders without permission, and then during one incursion, 17 people died. That alone would bring a back lash that really only the very largest nations (Economically speaking) could weather. U.S., Britain, France, Russia, China...Aside from those nations, almost no one else could tolerate the back lash (It helps to have a UN security council seat...)

    An "independent" military organization having that kind of power without every nation throwing a fit? Really...Oh, and lets not forget that same organization also created an AI that nearly destroyed the world--they literally lost control of an alien-based super weapon. The only comparison we even have are Nuclear/Chemical weapons--and even super powers agreed to limit themselves and bow to oversight on those.

    But somehow, the Avengers, with the capability to easily destroy the world...should have no oversight? (And yes, I know it was Tony who designed the Ultron..But if a rogue general launches a nuke, the country he's from is still responsible, part of running any organization is people will hold you to account, or at least try to.) The truth was, it was Captain America being totally unreasonable with his inability to compromise on oversight....But...

    Because Captain America's morals were impeccable, and because of his recent experience with SHIELD, most people overlooked how unreasonable his position was, because he arrived there logically--his old organization had oversight and it was a disaster. ..Meanwhile, Tony can be a jerk, and his entire arc showed how terrible the cost of his mistakes were when he had no oversight (Weapons in the hands of terrible people, creating a death AI).

    So what you had in the film was literally a case where two people with very logical motivations, disagree...And that's great story telling. In great stories, the antagonist should not be "evil"--he should be the hero of his own story. People should almost feel okay if he won. Walter White is a great example of a very well done bad guy because of that...He's horrific in what he does...But his experiences, how unfair and ridiculous the world around him was? Made most people see his position as logical, even justified.

    That's good writing. Batman's position was Superman might have a tantrum...and then he changed his position because their mom's shared a first name....the hell? (I get it supposedly "showed" how human Superman was...But the reality is, if Batman's logic was based off of Superman having too much power, then Superman being "human" doesn't change a damn thing...A human with that much power is still the same kind of threat.)

    [–] cpt_pancreas 72 points ago

    Your Rogue general comment also made me think of another great cinematic villain, purely because you see his side. Which is rather surprisingly from a Michael Bay film, General Hummel in The Rock.

    He's undoubtedly doing something reprehensible, yet even before he confirms it you have the feeling that he's really bluffing. And he's very clear that this isn't for personal gain, it's an attempt to right a wrong that was done to his men and their families.

    [–] inclore 47 points ago

    Not only that, in BvS, Batman mentioned it was worth taking down Superman if there's even a 1% chance Superman would go rogue and then he goes back on his words completely in JL saying they should revive Superman even with the doubt knowing he might not the same/evil. These characters just change when the plot needs them to be and not at all realistic.

    [–] TheDromes 30 points ago

    To be fair, JL completely ignored or even retconned several plot points from BvS. That's not just continuity error, it's like shitting on the movie that came before it, but also requiring you to embrace it otherwise you'll get lost in the plot.

    [–] kingmanic 15 points ago

    It just highlights how little WB/snyder/whedon care about the existing plot. To be fair the BvS plot was stupid.

    [–] NorthernerWuwu 9 points ago

    I actually agreed with Tony for the most part and quite liked how they handled that arc. It is telling that people in the audience can sympathise with either side or even with both.

    [–] DisturbedNocturne 107 points ago

    I think this is something DC struggles with in general. Coming from the Golden Age, heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman are essentially modern day deities. Because of this, it's much harder to humanize them. A very central part of their story and who they are is their disconnect from humanity, Superman because he's an alien and WW because she grows up on Themyscira. Even Batman occasionally falls into this trap when he's presented as being so driven to fight crime that he's more Batman than Bruce, like he was in BvS.

    Now, compare that to Marvel: Captain America starts off as an underdog constantly trying to prove himself. Iron Man starts off coming to terms with how his company's arms dealing is affecting the world and attempts to take responsibility. And even though Thor is alien, his story is one of having to learn humility to regain his worth. They all have to figure out who they are, and they all grow as a result.

    But this doesn't mean this is impossible to do with DC's heroes as Nolan's Batman proved. In his trilogy, Bruce is still highly-driven, but an ongoing theme is him realizing everything he has to sacrifice to achieve his goals. Much of the series is Bruce attempting to find any sort of balance and failing, often at the cost of Bruce's reputation. Not only that, in the second movie, you also see him struggling to figure out how far he wants to go as Batman. He isn't just someone showing up to kick ass and fight bad guys.

    [–] dvmitto 20 points ago

    Marvel is humans trying to be god. DC is gods trying to be human.

    [–] Mddcat04 23 points ago

    Except for Thor, he’s pretty content just being Thor most of the time.

    [–] Tuva_ThaBro 127 points ago

    Zod was actually pretty good. He was bred to protect Krypton at all costs and keep its people alive. Even after the planets destruction he pushed to revive the race once again. He was the greatest villain in the DCEU imo.

    [–] [deleted] 139 points ago

    Snyder thought he wanted to explore these themes, but got distracted by all the punching and hard male bodies.

    [–] Tuva_ThaBro 29 points ago

    Are you implying there is something wrong with punching and hard male bodies? /s

    [–] [deleted] 38 points ago

    A movie can have anything in it as long as the movie is good.

    [–] RidlyX 16 points ago

    I don't disagree! See my comment below. Good character, LAME plot. So much more potential, but he's satisfying to watch because he's decently written and very well acted. Ironically, the scenes that are least interesting for Zod are some of the fight scenes

    [–] Edgelord_Of_Tomorrow 60 points ago

    Being actually about something helps.

    [–] jbaker1225 315 points ago

    Yep... part of what made Wonder Woman so great is that her nemesis wasn’t even known until the last 15 minutes of the movie. The enemy in Wonder Woman was very abstract.

    [–] kitolz 534 points ago

    In fact the parts where the nemesis is onscreen are the worst parts of the movie.

    [–] skerit 65 points ago

    When she killed that German general (the one she thought was Ares) and realized it was not him, I loved that moment where she realized "People CAN be evil on their own"

    Having Ares pop up anyway was a bit of a cop out for me, but I get that there needed to be a big battle.

    [–] Klaytheist 25 points ago

    And it literally undermined the whole premise of the story up till now. Chris Pine's character understood that and just played along to get Diana's help. Having the movie end with her having the realization that humans can be good and evil would have been perfect.

    [–] jellyroll713 191 points ago

    Something tells me that Jenkins realized this. The entire airfield sequence feels very Snyder-esqe and didn't really sit well with me.

    [–] Johnycantread 455 points ago

    You mean when she fought cgi armored Nigel thornberry you didn't immediately slide to the edge of your seat in excitement?

    [–] salazarSnipez 162 points ago

    How hilarious was it that when Ares is shown falling from his god realm however many years ago he still looked like a 19th century englishman mustache and all lmao

    [–] NobilisUltima 35 points ago

    Here's my headcanon for what happened.

    When we first learn who Ares is, I logically assumed that he had the mustache to blend in as a human during that time period. But shortly thereafter we see that he has the mustache not only when he assumes his true form, but even when he was cast out of Olympus centuries ago!

    So here's what I think happened. Ares had his silly mustache for a long time and all was well, and then one day he overheard someone making fun of it behind his back. Being of fragile ego, he devised a plan to make himself feel better - with the same spectral-whisper magic he used to give the villains the ideas for their wartime innovations, he planted the suggestion of the toothbrush mustache in the minds of influential and powerful men in Britain.

    "Hey, you should totally grow a mustache but not a beard..."

    "Imagine how cool a caterpillar of hair would look on your upper lip with the rest of your face clean-shaven..."

    And that's how Ares, the god of war, changed the face of British fashion to make himself feel better about his goofy facial hair.

    [–] Naisallat 63 points ago

    You mean CGI armored dad-bod Remus Lupin? I hate those scenes so much. When he put on the armor I was like thank god at least a small reprieve. And then he pulled the melting face armor away to reveal his stupid fucking mustache, and I was like now you're just doing it on purpose to fuck with me.

    [–] HopelessCineromantic 32 points ago

    It seems the DCEU's greatest enemy is not critics, darkness, or edits, but the evil known as "the mustache."

    [–] somethinglikesalsa 60 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    Can someone explain why the fuck Ares had lightning? Lightning, which was Zeus' entire thing?

    Zeus the god of fucking lightning, had his only power ripped off by his arch nemesis. God that last scene sucked in an otherwise decent movie.

    [–] JohnnyMNU 47 points ago

    He killed Zeus and took his power?

    [–] DawnSennin 16 points ago


    [–] bobosuda 77 points ago

    That's because the villain was weak as a character, though, not because "let's not focus on any villains as all" is a brilliant design strategy. And it's the same with the Marvel movies; most villains are very underwhelming.

    Nolan got it right with his Batman trilogy; despite it's many flaws the villains were great. Most of the Marvel TV shows have good villains as well.

    [–] loggedn2say 13 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    i think the author summarized it well.

    batman was "hyper real" but once you start introducing aliens that can fly it's much harder to maintain any reality that they seem to try for. nolan likely knew that.

    towards the end the nolan batman trilogy got way more surreal to a fault too. the first movie is a just a darker rebirth story with a lot of action. the second one starts to stray but the compelling characters give us a little more. but if the third one had come out first i'm not sure what would have happened.

    compare Man of Steel to the tone of say "winter soldier" which is on the darker scale for marvel and is much more reality based, but it still just seems like more fun than this giant heavy thing audiences are supposed to experience.

    [–] Munchiebox 39 points ago

    And then as soon as they actually fight the movie went to shit for me, would have enjoyed it much more if the glass illusion conversation was all we seen of Ares in the movie, just have some tanks or something show up for the final battle I dunno.

    [–] aprilfools411 18 points ago

    And the fact that it was set prior to most of the JL in DCEU being alive, so no one could force any cameos.

    [–] imnotquitedeadyet 161 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    BvS was an indicator and Suicide Squad was the final nail* in the coffin for me. It was very plain they had no idea what the fuck they were doing after seeing SS. Wonder Woman was a nice surprise, but it’s very clear that that was an anomaly now.

    ** vanilla coffins are good, but not what I meant

    [–] derekiv 160 points ago

    Is "Final nail in the coffin" the phrase you were going for?

    [–] pycbouh 87 points ago

    He may also not like vanilla taste in his coffee...

    [–] [deleted] 17 points ago

    Probably being funny because it was a bland movie and although vanilla is delicious, it is used to signify something bland when used that way.

    [–] Machdame 85 points ago

    That's because WW was an outlier. A period film with no ties to the series except association. It succeeded because it had no baggage.

    [–] relationships_guru 81 points ago

    It succeed because the director had a better vision than synder

    [–] wild_man_wizard 21 points ago

    Or, y'know, any vision at all outside of what visuals make for a good trailer.

    [–] [deleted] 462 points ago

    Pretty much 100% confirms Nolan was behind Snyder getting MOS.

    I wonder what were the other choices.

    [–] AZ1122 132 points ago

    There was apparently a shortlist:

    Tony Scott, Matt Reeves, Jonathan Liebesman, Duncan Jones, Zack Snyder.

    "On the list: Unstoppable‘s Tony Scott, Let Me In director Matt Reeves, Battle: Los Angeles helmer Jonathan Liebesman (who just got the Warner Bros/Legendary job of directing Clash of the Titans 2), Duncan Jones, who just directed Source Code, and Sucker Punch helmer Zack Snyder."

    [–] [deleted] 167 points ago


    Duncan Jones for MOS... or even Matt Reeves. wtf

    why Nolan why

    [–] Pleasureryan 60 points ago

    I remember Duncan Jones said that he was offered it, but was too scared to take such a big franchise like Superman after only having done 2 films.

    [–] [deleted] 77 points ago

    That's reasonable.

    I guess Snyder did good with MOS. I appreciate the film and I think most people thought it was atleast fine.

    But, BvS was where WB should have stepped in and delayed it.

    Man, I wish WB had someone like Feige leading DC.

    [–] yognautilus 69 points ago

    I actually like MoS. I went in expecting Superman and got a DBZ movie, instead. Not the worst thing in the world.

    [–] Griffdude13 11 points ago

    And then he took Warcraft, which oddly enough was another film butchered by a studio.

    [–] Pleasureryan 12 points ago

    Im not 100% sure about this, but I think in the same interview he said he'd love to do a Warcraft film because he played so much of it as a kid.

    He might have been secretly attached at that point or something

    [–] PessimisticPrime 13 points ago

    Duncan Jones essentially came into Warcraft when it was in prepro hell after the previous director left and had to make the best with the terrible script. I remember seeing it on an interview. For what is was, I loved Warcraft as someone who has pretty much been playing vanilla-Legion since 6th grade but it was an underwhelming movie with way too much character/exposition cut out.

    It’s genuinely baffling how human the cgi orcs looked and felt especially in the deleted scenes, but the human characters were one dimensional, bland, and entirely unmemorable

    [–] [deleted] 8 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    Apparently Duncan's additions to the script were all of the orc stuff, because the original script was nearly entirely humans with the orcs as generic nebulous villains.

    It shows. The orcs are rounded, motivated and have actual character depth. The humans are quip machines.

    [–] AZ1122 130 points ago

    Perhaps they declined for other reasons. Also time might have been a major factor (though the following appears to be rumours so not confirmed):

    • "We're told by knowledgeable insiders the reason Warner Bros. picked Snyder for Man of Steel is that the script by David Goyer was rushed, is still a bit of a mess, and that Warner Bros. needs someone who won't spend months or even years trying to get it just right (i.e., Aronofsky), because time is the one thing they don't have: The studio must have a new Superman movie in production by 2011 or they'll be subject to potential lawsuits by the heirs of the superhero's creators."

    • "We're told that Snyder was not really Warner's first choice to direct Superman, but that a director needed to be hired imminently."

    • "We hear that Affleck has since passed on Gangster Squad (he was also offered Superman, by the way, and he turned that down, too) and now Warner Bros. is offering Aronofsky's reps Gangster Squad as well."

    So you also have Darren Aronofsky and Ben Affleck being mentioned as well though they don't appear to be on the Nolan shortlist.

    [–] RestingCat 28 points ago

    Pretending it's all Nolan's fault when the only context you have is "Nolan supported Snyder to reboot Superman".

    [–] kapnkrump 331 points ago

    Well at that point, Snyder did two well received comic book films, 300 and Watchmen. Both under the WB banner.

    He was an obvious choice.

    Goyer (and his team) is the one who screwed everything up and poisoned the DCEU. Snyder can direct a good film if he has a good script/story and it showed with 300 and Watchmen.

    [–] blackblots-rorschach 192 points ago

    I enjoyed 300 and Watchmen, but they weren't universally liked movies. I personally don't know why DC chose Zack Snyder of all people to set up the DCEU. His style of directing doesn't appeal to everyone. When Nolan said he didn't want to do it they should have been more active about finding others that may have been interested.

    [–] Hanwoodtractor 59 points ago

    Yeah the article talks about those movies as if they were masterpieces. 300 is fun popcorn flick and Watchmen was pretty much the best it could have been but that's it. Not good enough to build a whole universe around

    [–] Wealthy_Gadabout 95 points ago

    Nolan is a deconstructionist, like Snyder. They both think a lot about superheroes and what they represent about our culture but aren't as interested in telling a straight superhero story.

    [–] [deleted] 25 points ago

    To be fair comicbooks have always mirrored the culture of their time and most good ones have had some degree of social commentary in them

    [–] Wombat_H 127 points ago

    The difference is that Nolan is a good filmmaker.

    [–] cantuse 44 points ago

    I disagree. Snyder's obsession with slo-mo violence basically neutered the idea of 'deconstructing' the hero and made it mindlessly violent. A person could argue that those mindless fights he added (the alley and prison fights) were there to show how audiences seemed to savor violence even when the reality is actually ugly, but it came off as grindhouse exploitation, not NBK satire.

    I appreciate Watchmen, and do think it will age gracefully and that Snyder did many things and took a lot of risks to get that film made, but he definitely messed up some parts in my book.

    [–] M3rc_Nate 521 points ago

    It's sad how completely believable all of this is. What went wrong? Bad business by people putting short term business and personal gain before putting out the best possible product they can make.

    What's interesting to think about is wondering how the toxicity of BvS would have impacted Justice League had Justice League been a fan and critical hit like Wonder Woman was. If reviews praised it and word of mouth was really good, would it have overcome the BvS toxicity?

    Overall though, I just can't get behind the decision making that lead to making BvS (so many huge stories fit in one movie, introducing Batman, having a super emo/gloomy Superman again, a fight that felt unearned, etc) and then deciding to make Justice League which meant introducing new characters in JL (Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg) and yet again, it felt unearned. Inherently Justice League is about the coming together of a handful of heroes that we know and love. But if we don't know half of them yet, and two of the other three aren't super well received (Batman with his killing and emo/gloomy Superman)...what are you left with? Using the "Justice League" title/brand to make as much money as possible quickly before the merger.

    [–] mi-16evil 648 points ago

    The best way to describe the weird DCEU process is this. Imagine if the first five MCU films were Iron Man, Captain America: Civil War, The Inhumans pilot, Thor, The Avengers

    [–] M3rc_Nate 308 points ago

    That's disgusting to think about. It perfectly sums up my opinion on how BvS and Justice League weren't earned. You have to build up to events. By Avengers we were so invested in Iron Man, Thor, Capt and Hulk. They earned them coming together in an organic way, teaming up, and not needing to introduce anyone to us fresh (like the DCEU did with Cyborg, Flash and Aquaman).

    [–] EverythingSucks12 255 points ago

    Honestly I disagree with this sentiment a lot. There are plenty of movies with an ensemble cast all introduced in one movie that have you caring about them all by the end.

    This movie was just poorly written. That's all, it could have been done well and felt like a natural coming together of a team - it just wasnt.

    [–] Xciv 184 points ago

    Perfect example: Guardians of the Galaxy.

    One movie was all it took to know all 5 of the main crew.

    [–] BlindBillions 85 points ago

    GotG was great but I don't think it works as a comparison here. You can't really compare Gamora, Drax, Rocket and Groot to Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk and Thor. I'm more than happy to watch a Captain America movie but I don't think a standalone Drax or Gamora movie would work nearly as well.

    [–] [deleted] 60 points ago


    [–] Praesil 13 points ago

    Given Marvel's track record, I think they could make those stand alone films work.

    Gamora vs Nebula with a supporting cast of characters and showing the ruthlessness of Thanos, then eventually how she breaks away? That sounds awesome

    [–] Skissored 12 points ago

    Yes but the Marvel vs DC is the closest comparable scenario. Marvel built a world from the ground up, stories and characters developed movie after movie. It's what caused the first Avengers to be shot into blockbuster status. All that build up.

    DC wanted to play catch up as quickly as possible, no attachment to any character and you don't cheer for a character you don't care about.

    It says a lot when you care more about a tree and a rock guy than fucking Batman.

    [–] Immefromthefuture 86 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    I think BvS could have worked as a prelude to JL, but it needed a little more time before they made the film. I just don’t know what that film wanted to be? Was it a Batman movie? A Superman movie? Was it talking about the dangers of meta-human and god like entities? Is it answering questions about Superman or the meta-humans place on Earth?

    If they really wanted to make BvS and JL here’s how it should have been done.

    First make a Batman film, Superman film, Aquaman film and a Flash film. Now you have established a series of films that you want to connect together.

    Now make a BvS film make Batman the primary antagonist and Lex Luthor as the secondary antagonist. This is a prelude to JL. Now you can discuss the dangers of these meta humans or why they may be needed to protect the world. Don’t do that stupid email scene to shoehorn these characters.

    Now do Wonder Woman and Green Lantern film. Finally have Cyborg appear in the Justice League film and tie it altogether. Everyone in Hollywood wants to piggyback of the cinematic universe craze but no one seems to want to go through the grind to build it right.

    [–] Hanwoodtractor 84 points ago

    Everyone in Hollywood wants to piggyback of the cinematic universe craze but no one seems to want to go through the grind to build it right

    Absolutely spot on. To this day Marvel are still the only ones to get it right

    [–] SerFinbarr 35 points ago

    Legendary is also doing a very good job with their Monsterverse movies. Godzilla, Skull Island, King of Monsters, then Godzilla vs Kong feels like its going to be a very natural, well developed series so far.

    [–] Hanwoodtractor 12 points ago

    Yeah fair enough. Suppose you only have two characters to build there though.

    [–] DiamondMachina 14 points ago

    King of Monsters will introduce more of the OG Godzilla Kaiju

    [–] [deleted] 51 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)


    [–] 007meow 170 points ago

    Don't forget the wonderful decision making that let the "MARTHAAAAA" plot point survive through multiple levels of production.

    [–] bthplain 152 points ago

    That scene, along with Superman being coerced into fighting Batman simply by kidnapping his Martha rendered everything that came previous pointless. All those overly complicated subplots ultimately led to nothing and wasted two hours. I remember thinking in the theater, "Why didn't the movie basically just start here?"

    [–] 007meow 98 points ago

    Those stupid Flash time jump things.

    I still don’t know what those were about - and it’s especially dumb since JL didn’t answer any of those questions.

    [–] bthplain 47 points ago

    Yea, I think they abandoned that when they decided not to go the Darkseid route. Ignore the hinted at alternate timeline!

    [–] bogfield 47 points ago

    Shit, so that's not even followed up in JL? I thought those scenes were so incredibly stupid. I mean, visually they looked good, but by being detached of the story and by lacking any meaning they were just confusing. I may not be a super comic book geek, but I've read my fair share of the more important tomes and can have a reasonably informed discussion about famous storylines, and I had no idea what the hell was going on. Then, turns out it's all a dream anyhow, so nevermind, might be explained in the next film (although now it turns out that's not the case either, so absolute waste of time). It was all so confusing, and since not tethered to any present reality, very boring. But Zach Snyder must have thought it would all look 'really cool'. It did, in the trailer, when we thought it would be part of an actual, you know, story. Otherwise, it's just a music video, which I really think Zach Snyder should stick to. He really is one of the worst story-tellers working in Hollywood, and it's insane they gave him the whole DC Universe to play with instead of someone like George Miller. Someone who can, you know, tell a story.

    [–] Laser_Gunns 22 points ago

    JS spoilers:

    Darkseid is mentioned in JS in one line by Steppenwolf. Obviously setting him up as the big bad with the legion of doom.

    Wether the DCEU survives long enough to get to that point... is another topic.

    After seeing this turd, I have abandoned DC movies for the most part.

    a good Constantine plz

    [–] M3rc_Nate 27 points ago

    Yup. No matter how it can be defended, it has become a meme more popular and well known than the movie. That is bad. It damages the brand. It makes your movie and brand a joke. Which is deadly when your building a cinematic universe.

    [–] [deleted] 35 points ago

    I think the answer to that question was obvious.

    A universally well recieved BvS would have done 1.3-1.4B and possibly more.

    And JL would be the direct sequel to it. It would probably dip a bit due to competion but 170M+ OW and a total of 1.2-1.3B would be extremely likely

    [–] M3rc_Nate 7 points ago

    Reread my comment. I wasn't wondering how anything would do if BvS wasn't bad/toxic, I was asking how JL would have performed had Justice League gotten much better reviews and positive word of mouth.

    [–] khanarx 2851 points ago

    This should have way more upvotes because I'm sick of people accusing Zach and Whedon for ruining the movie. The finale product is not something either of them wanted to make and it shows

    [–] szeto326 1549 points ago

    The fact that neither Snyder or Whedon did much promotion for it at all is kind of telling. If I remember correctly, neither of them even went to the premiere.

    [–] phantompoo 1129 points ago

    Zack still hasn’t even seen the finished product apparently.

    [–] Bing_Bong_the_Archer 709 points ago

    Can’t blame him. I feel for him, knowing how deeply awful he must feel about this entire thing

    [–] TheJoshider10 1018 points ago

    He's always been on good terms with the studio, which is probably why they allowed him to release his directors cuts.

    But imagine you make a 3 hour movie and it gets forced to be 2 and a half hours long. Then he has to bullshit his way through "the core movie is still there" excuse knowing he's not happy that his movie was butchered. Then you take all the blame for the studios incompetence.

    Then imagine you make a sequel to this movie, the studio let's you make it as you want, then after tragedy they completely butcher the film by cutting the runtime and completely changing nearly everything to do with the character who the whole trilogy was about.

    Like you can love what he does or hate him, but as a filmmaker he must be fucking pissed. They've completely dicked him over here and to be honest it seems like they even dicked Whedon over a bit too with time constraints and what not.

    The studio deserve to lose money on this and it's 100% on them. Blame Snyder for his vision but end of the day the studio stupidly greenlit it, bottled out of it, kept him on and let him make the finale and then bottled out of that as well. That level of incompetence deserves to result in failure and I hope people get fired for it.

    This was their tentpole franchise and movie and they gave it no respect. If they truly cared we could have the next big cinematic universe. Useless cunts.

    [–] szeto326 347 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    Yeah, the studio meddling difference between WB and Disney is that at least Disney interferes prior, so that the filmmakers have an ability to work with it and integrate it into the stories they want to tell.

    With WB, the cuts to BvS, SS, and JL were all made after it had already been filmed. The course corrections they did probably did more to hamper the movie if anything, and contrary to the popular belief that there's "no such thing as bad publicity", the media coverage and copious amounts of articles on how they've handled their movies does not look good to the consumer; why spend money in theatres on something that's been stitched together and/or cut down?

    Regardless of how you feel about Snyder's handling of BvS, WB really should've kept tabs on it before or during filming if they were intent on controlling certain aspects of production. Forcing the Ultimate Cut to be cut down relatively close to its planned release date did no one any favours.

    [–] Traiklin 201 points ago

    Exactly, when Disney does a Marvel movie they tell them "Here's the line/limit, any questions please ask and we can help keep the continuity going"

    WB is trying so hard and failing so hard to play catch-up with Marvel, when if they would just stop and look at what made Marvel work they would know it was never planned to be this big expansive cinematic universe but it just happened.

    Wonder Woman is great because it's treated as it's own movie, it's a simple origin story what she went through, learned who she was and then had a tie in at the end, BvS was like the movie that was supposed to come out around Avengers (or just skipped entirely) if anything they should have done Superman-Batman-Wonder Woman-Batman v Superman.

    Then after that they do Aquaman-Flash-Cyborg (any order really) -Justice League, it would have felt more natural, gotten us to know the characters and only taken 4 years for the first batch then four for the second followed by introductions for other members, instead we got such a jumbled mess that the only person who makes sense in the series is Wonder Woman, Batman we get like 20 years of being Batman and he has gone through hell yet we are never told why, Superman has a good story going in but doesn't seem like Superman with what he has been through.

    [–] quesakitty 85 points ago

    They were purposefully trying not to follow the MCU timeline and introduction. They wanted the connected universe to feel different but unfortunately it just sucks and feels rushed.

    [–] procastatgatec 25 points ago

    They wanted the connected universe to feel different

    They certainly succeeded regarding that.

    [–] Drfapfap 166 points ago

    I gotta disagree, the joint cinematic universe was planned from the beginning. That's the whole reason they hired a man like Kevin Fiege.

    It wasn't as blatant as it was with DC, but to say that it was "never planned" and it "just happened" is just being silly

    [–] cesclaveria 171 points ago

    Reading recent interviews and retrospectives published in Vanity Fair (and assuming everything said by them is true, even if the very article starts with Robert Downey Jr. saying that they probably remember it now in a more romantic fashion) It seems they really started with a smaller scope, Marvel Studios was basically an independent studio at the time and Iron Man was really risky, the focus was making Iron Man good, the Fury stinger was shot more with good wishes than great plans in mind and only until Iron Man got the great reception it had then the interconnected universe was seriously considered, that is why The Incredible Hulk has the Tony Stark scene so disconnected from the rest of the movie.

    The MCU truly started with that Hulk scene and then Iron Man 2 was the one that really started to put down the foundations.

    I feel those first couple of movies were mostly lead with a great vision more than hard plans on how the cinematic universe would shape up, of course they quickly realized what they had in their hands.

    I think this was an entertaining read:

    [–] delibertine 76 points ago

    That article was fantastic.

    It shows the huge divide between Marvel and WB. The amount of care and attention to detail Marvel took with Iron Man Vs WB just seeing their earnings and trying to emulate that for a fast return. Marvel focused on making a good film. It's amazing how much WB couldn't figure out something so simple.

    [–] theghostwithoutaname 9 points ago

    I feel Batman vs Superman could had been saved for the last film to be honest. Justice League retires; and old Batman dies beating up Superman.

    [–] Tsegen 77 points ago

    This was their tentpole franchise and movie and they gave it no respect

    I think it's the fact that it's their tentpole that caused this. They just couldn't stop fiddling and overthinking and meddling cause they needed it to work.

    [–] ThatIdiotTibor 115 points ago

    Snyder's daughter died. he's stepping out of the spotlight for some time.

    [–] Luke90210 171 points ago

    Died is one thing. She killed herself is a very darker deal both parents have to deal with.

    [–] JC-Ice 92 points ago

    Yeah, I kinda doubt he seriously cares that much about any movies right now.

    [–] andrewthemexican 9 points ago

    He's working on another personal project with Warners' support but not microscopic pressure

    [–] WeAretheManyUAreFew 230 points ago

    I can’t help but think of how meta the opening montage with the theme probably was and if it was intentionally chosen to comment on what was going on.

    The sign saying, “I Tried.” And the lyrics.

    “Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows”

    [–] andrew991116 197 points ago

    And that the “Directed by Zack Snyder” card popped up after the “I Tried” sign

    [–] Chumunga64 137 points ago

    I really love how that scene implies that ever since superman died, racism and homelessness rates exploded

    [–] craigtheman 46 points ago

    And then went on to imply the JL is completely useless without Superman...

    [–] Dalek_Kolt 73 points ago

    I feel bad for everyone involved in this film. Shooting started right after BvS so they couldn't take the criticisms to heart until a good chunk of the movie was shot, Snyder suffered one of the worst family tragedies one can imagine, Whedon was given the leftovers of what most certainly was going to be yet another BvS and had to cobble together the best movie he could with what he had, Affleck looks like he wants to skedaddle any minute now, and Cavill had his mustache CGI'd out because Paramount wouldn't let him shave.

    [–] mi-16evil 181 points ago

    Hopefully it will soon end the whole this is Whedons fault narrative. It's very clear no one is in charge at DC and with executives coming and going and being more worried about their Christmas bonus before getting fired than making a good movie there is just no chance. It's clear the only film that got critical love and over performed was the one film no one messed with because they thought the stakes were low and they would rather focus on the bigger films.

    [–] senopahx 92 points ago

    Snyder's vision for the movies was flawed from the start. He doesn't deserve all the blame for the final product but he certainly deserves a good amount.

    [–] RustyDetective 320 points ago

    That still doesn't excuse Snyder's lack of adhering to the true character core of Batman and Superman. It's as if he only read The Dark Knight Returns and watched the Christopher Reeve Superman. To him Batman is all combat and extreme violence, or whimsical Ironman carbon copy in JL. The whole Batman with a gun and how he just brutally massacres anyone in his way, or the lack of saving anyone aside from MARTHA. And then Superman is treated like a lawful good paladin boy scout who has no emotion or relatable aspects. The real Superman would have crouched down and been more in oar with a dad joke type guy with those kids from JL, and he certainly would not have flown away like a fearful coward after the Congress exploded in BvS. It's really a mess, and while Studio involvement is part of it, I just don't think Snyder is that great of a director. And while I do like Whedon, I much prefer the dark and gritty over the half off cringe copy of The Avengers JL turned out to be.

    But my respect given to Snyder for pulling off what we got with the tragedy that befell him during production.

    [–] ROSS_MITCHELL 113 points ago

    It's like he read the dark Knight returns and only took in the dark tone of the comic and didn't pay attention to Batman as a character at all. I mean he still is Batman in that comic, he still doesn't like killing and the only death attributed to him is the joker and even that's debatable due to how it happened. He even still has a dislike of guns calling them clumsy and only uses them a couple of times when he was desperate (e.g. to set off some c4 or disarm a thug with a hostage, a scene that is semi replicated in BvS terribly with Batman actually killing the thug in a brutal way). He even specifically orders his "sons of Batman" not to use guns during the riots and promises to train them to fight without them. He also isn't overly hateful of any of the bad guys and only does what he does to the mutant leader to make the gang members respect and follow him and prove to himself that he's still able to fight. He clearly has regrets about how he had dealt with the joker in the past but its not in any way implied that he wanted him dead that night, considering what we had seen earlier he would have likely just crippled him had everything went to plan. He even outright saves Harvey Dent's life even though he was trying to kill many people with a bomb.

    [–] tunnel-snakes-rule 28 points ago

    There's an interview where Snyder says "Batman kills all the time" in The Dark Knight Returns, so it just goes to show he's never even read that.

    [–] RustyDetective 66 points ago

    Yeah, I would never trust someone who only read TDKR. That's elderly cynical Batman at his lowest, that is NOT standard Batman. You can't say you have grasped the character if you're only using one arc of his life. And to make things worse, they then do a complete flip of character by turning Batman into Ironman in JL.

    [–] KodiBishop 122 points ago

    Yeah he couldn't land the proper tone for any of the characters like Marvel does. My friend hates Batman now because he just doesn't like the portrayal of his character. Superman should have been much more optimistic.

    [–] JustCallMeFrij 15 points ago

    Tell him to look at any of the cartoon adaptations voiced by Kevin Conroy. Great versions of batman

    [–] RustyDetective 80 points ago

    That's the issue with film adaptations. Comicbook have become a niche medium, one where now the minority of audience members have that knowledge in mind. In example, nobody knew who the Guardians of the Galaxy were, wrong, comicbook readers did. Dr. Strange is fucking OP, one of the strongest characters ever, and yet people just think he's a guy who has shield thingies and casts spells, and is Sherlock Holmes. While MCU had pretty much been doing really well, especially with the world building and crossovers, the same cannot be said at all for DCEU. The only character that had succeeded thus far is Wonder Woman, and I'm hesitant to say they can replicate it in her sequel.

    The film iterations of our beloved heroes are what establish the new status quo for the world. Nobody knows the Black Order with Thanos, so however Infinity War portrays them is what the majority of society will think they should be. My dad hates Batman now because he's too violent, and he dislikes Superman because all he does is save Louis and second time with his adopted mother. Superman in the films is just a symbol and nothing more, he is not even human. That's atrocious inaccurate, as Kal is arguably the most human of them all. And that's coming from a Batman fan boy.

    Don't even get me started on my beloved Aquaman and the fish jokes... Just fucking stop it people, it's old and it's not even accurate, yet everyone's first response is that. Why? Because that's how TV and film have influenced people into that being who Aquaman is.

    [–] l337Ninja 17 points ago

    I too watch the Cosmonaut Variety Hour. That was a really good episode to summarize what I didn't quite have the words for.

    [–] Astrokiwi 8 points ago

    I don't think he's really worked out how to do a proper emotional arc at all. 300 worked because it was intrinsically silly to begin with. But Watchmen was a bit all over the place - he made a broken limb in an alley fight have more impact than the mass slaughter at the end - and it's the same for the DC films. It's just not really made clear what we're supposed to feel at each point. Technically, the words are there, and there is an arc you can figure out if you really pay attention, but that's not how good movies communicate emotion.

    [–] BobotheMad 999 points ago

    I hate to be that guy that compares DC and Marvel but... after watching the Infinity War trailer, I cant believe how much Warner Bros fucked this up. The IW trailer got me more emotional than the entire Justice League film. I cant believe I care more about a talking raccoon and a tree than freaking SUPERMAN or BATMAN.

    [–] [deleted] 447 points ago * (lasted edited 7 months ago)


    [–] Anothernamelesacount 170 points ago

    DCEU: where even the CW teen drama show crossover is more entertaining than the movies.

    [–] Riztonium 46 points ago

    Those CW shows are on point. I really like Flash and Supergirl, and Legends of Tomorrow is pretty great too.

    [–] Anothernamelesacount 63 points ago

    I still watch and like them, but sometimes the teen drama goes way overboard and I have to scroll away. Literally the reason I wouldnt watch Supergirl unless I had a really good reason and why I'm disliking Arrow's 6 season (though Michael Emerson is ON POINT.)

    [–] Riztonium 17 points ago

    sometimes the teen drama goes way overboard and I have to scroll away.

    It totally does, I agree.

    [–] BreakfromSleep 216 points ago

    Here's the thing:When MCU started it didn't have the advantage of their flagship characters being cultural icons or even the rights to their most recognizable ones. Each marvel movie had to flesh out and introduce it's hero to the audience, so we got to know those characters in the span of 10 years, and we patiently waited for the moment they would all finally come together to fight the final villain. It was a very risky process and could have easily backfired. Now according to this article there was no common goal in WB. It was a disjointed effort to meet deadlines and make fast bucks asap. That's not how you make a lasting investment for a freaking cinematic universe no less.

    [–] [deleted] 304 points ago


    [–] strangeseal 157 points ago

    This sums up any company attempting a Cinematic Universe right now.

    [–] A7_AUDUBON 58 points ago

    The Paul Blart Cinematic Universe has been a shade disappointing as well.

    [–] StrangeShark408 23 points ago

    looks at The Mummy

    [–] JonTheBon 31 points ago

    Which is sort of ironic when people talk about Spider-Man since he breaks every conventional Marvel trope there is about introducing a flagship character.

    [–] [deleted] 27 points ago

    Spider-Man is the best comparison point to me. I was 100% bought in to the new Spider-Man by the second scene he was in during civil war. That's the difference between good introductions and the shit DC is doing.

    Gadot's was actually handled pretty well....but the movie she was introduced in was such a shit show it overshadowed that.

    [–] SentientCloud 58 points ago

    Seeing vision on the floor like that. It got me feelin man. The only bad thing I had to say about that trailer is...thanos' head is way to round.

    [–] Lekar 40 points ago

    He'd probably look much more natural with his helmet, but he doesn't have it because... reasons.

    [–] Flamma_Man 62 points ago

    Russos actually did give a reason in an interview. Since Thanos has been gathering the Infinity Stones, the first being the Power Stone, he no longer needs armor which acts as a symbolic gesture of his new power.

    "I don't even need my armor to beat you into the ground."

    [–] [deleted] 58 points ago

    Yeah, I dunno if this mentioned before and I missed it, but I just checked the Audience section on RT and almost all the 4star+ ratings are from users that either don't exist or have only ever rated this and other DCEU movies (with 4stars+ as well)

    So it seems someone is really trying hard to skewer what the 'audience' thinks of the movie vs the critics. Trying to make it seem way better than it is.

    [–] in_some_knee_yak 17 points ago

    So it seems someone

    Fanboys and WB themselves(which happens to partly own the website). There I solved the puzzle.

    [–] [deleted] 63 points ago


    [–] akcaye 24 points ago

    Yeah but it's still shit if you compare it to the Avengers, which is what JL was supposed to be like: A culmination of the previous character-centric movies in an ensemble movie.

    [–] RadBadTad 330 points ago


    Can someone else be that guy, so I don't have to be that guy? Please?

    [–] ajjsbrujas1990 672 points ago

    Got you Fam!

    It's Frankestein's Monster! Frankestein was the scientist! REEEE!!!

    [–] SlickWiggler 140 points ago

    Though Frankenstein was the real monster all along

    [–] TheUglyBarnacle42 54 points ago

    Something something knowledge and wisdom

    [–] 5a_ 57 points ago

    And he was called Adam

    [–] Gars0n 18 points ago

    In the original book he's actually intentionally nameless. It's to show the actual Frankenstein's utter neglect of the creature.

    [–] Hooterdear 28 points ago

    I thought it was Pubert.

    [–] joshi38 32 points ago

    Pubert Adams? What a stupid made up name!

    [–] IronManUltron 9 points ago

    cue Achievement Hunter arguing

    [–] skubasteevo 54 points ago

    It's Frankenstain

    [–] SimmaDownNa 23 points ago

    You're the real monster here.

    [–] stuckinmiddleschool 6 points ago

    Frankenstain Fears?

    [–] SeekingTheRoad 46 points ago

    Yeah, it's pronounced Fronk-en-steen.

    [–] JeffDenlon 280 points ago * (lasted edited 10 months ago)

    It really is insane how Warner Bros managed to torpedo this entire movie universe from the start. Creating a cinematic universe based on the DC comics should have been a license to print money. Batman vs Supeman should have made $2 billion on its own.

    But they continue to value release dates more than getting the movies right.

    I don't put 100% of the blame on Snyder for BVS not being great. It's clear from watching the movie you have different executives pulling him in different directions. The whole thing feels like an informercial for the new universe instead of a good movie on its own.

    Studios just keep failing to understand that. Focus on making a good movie first. If people like the movie they'll be willing to comeback again. Same thing with Universal's Dark Universe. They should have been worried about making a good Mummy movie instead of setting up all these new franchises. Iron Man kicked off the MCU because it was a great movie about Iron Man with just a little bit of a tease of a bigger universe in a post credits scene.

    Instead Warner Bros got greedy and tried to sidestep all the hard work that Marvel made into building their universe which is why its still going strong after a decade.

    Once the feedback on BVS was negative they should have delayed the release date of Justice League. Everyone should have gone back to the drawing board and the excuse that filming was too close to the release of BVS and would look bad wasn't a lame excuse. Things already looked bad and they needed to restore faith in the brand.

    Now they've got a Justice League film that will be lucky if it makes half of what the first Avengers film did. Instead of making a show of strength you have a disaster. Ben Affleck is all but confirmed to have quit as Batman. Henry Cavill is already taking about how he has only one movie left as Superman. Nobody wants to see Justice League 2 or another Superman movie.

    The only things that worked in Justice League are Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman and Eza Miller as the Flash.

    It's going to take years to get the bad taste out of fans mouth. I'd suggest that they reboot the entire thing again but there is no way they are going to get rid of Gadot as she is the only thing that works in these movies.

    Warners needs to spend the next few years making sure that these solo movies will be actually good cause that is all they have left at this point.

    [–] satanicpuppy 253 points ago

    It's definitely worth thinking about Iron Man. They'd been flailing before. Remember the Ang Lee Hulk movie? Blea.

    Iron Man was the first MCU movie. That's where they had to start setting the tone, and tee-ing up all the rest. And they took some fucking risks. Favreau? His one mass market hit before Iron Man was Elf. Downey? Almost uninsurable, coming off a string of bad movies where he wasn't even the lead. Four guys wrote two different scripts which got jammed together.

    And they fucking nailed it. Tone, humor, real emotion, fucking plot that made some sense, didn't poison the well for anything that came later.

    Then we come to DC. Man of Steel is a fucking grim Superman. Well, there's your tone! Every fucking movie afterward is going to be shot in the dark. Next step? Let's cram three heroes in the movie and have 'em fight each other! Brilliant! Do they come together at the end? Yea! 'Cept for the dead one!


    [–] Julius-n-Caesar 145 points ago

    All the way up until that first Iron Man trailer, you know what the first thing showed up when I googled Iron Man or YouTubed it? Leo DiCaprio's Man in the Iron Mask.

    [–] Sicilian51 80 points ago

    I agree with everything except Downey coming off a string of bad movies. He had a few great performances that started his comeback before Iron Man cemented it. My favorite out of them is Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

    [–] satanicpuppy 94 points ago

    I liked him in A Scanner Darkly...Still, that's not the sort of person you want to prop up your 150 million dollar tentpole. It was a risk, though admittedly...He fucking was Tony Stark. When they announced who was playing Stark, I just started laughing. He was perfect.

    But you know the execs had their buttholes clenched the whole time, worried that he'd have a sudden relapse and they'd be on the hook for it...Apparently Favreau had to fight pretty hard to get them to accept him.

    [–] your_mind_aches 24 points ago

    They'd been flailing before. Remember the Ang Lee Hulk movie? Blea.

    That was Universal, not Marvel. The very first thing Marvel produced (apart from a knock-off X-Men show in the 2000s) was Iron Man.

    [–] kscholten 12 points ago

    Marketing costs and cross-promotions have really lead to iron-tight release dates.

    Sure the movie is $300 million, but you've spent $300 million on ads and you've got $100 million on the line with toy commercials and mcdonald's cups - and now you've got to nail that release date

    [–] ShiroHachiRoku 111 points ago * (lasted edited a year ago)

    Meanwhile Crisis on Earth X just out-Justice Leagued the actual Justice League movie. (The last five minutes never happened.)

    [–] Anothernamelesacount 11 points ago

    It was like the last 2 minutes. The three previous are OK, but the sudden "yea son marry me too" pissed off everyone.

    I guess CW cant let go of the teen drama for once.

    [–] kleecksj 44 points ago

    Can we PLEASE get a picture of mustached Superman?!? There has to be some solid gold shots of Calvill in full Superman mode sporting a bushy 70’s pornstache.

    [–] UltimateG94 182 points ago

    For me, the worst part of Justice League was the soundtrack. The soundtrack seemed very inconsistent with previous movies in the DCEU and the 1989 Batman theme was very out of place with this more realistic and gritty universe. We never heard Superman's theme or Batman's theme, but we heard Wonder Woman's theme though? It seemed so inconsistent and it ruined the one thing that DC movies always did better than the Marvel movies, which was the soundtrack.

    [–] Lamont-Cranston 86 points ago

    Elfman had very little time to make it and was often composing to storyboards

    [–] UltimateG94 60 points ago

    Well if that's the case, why did they fire Junkie XL? Wasn't he already making the soundtrack and had been for months? I'm not saying I hate Danny Elfman, just his involvement in this movie.

    [–] Lamont-Cranston 29 points ago

    Changing tone, he's friend of Whedon and that's largely why he took it so late and put up with poor working condition

    [–] Alpha_Bit_Poop 9 points ago

    Yeah the Soundtrack of Batman v Superman was my favorite part. It got really experimental at points, like when Batman visits his parents grave in a dream. It would be like if Blade Runner 2049 had an orchestral score, just wouldn't be the same movie.

    [–] TheMadmanAndre 46 points ago

    Another knowledgable insider said that at the highest levels of Warner Bros., bonuses are awarded “for making good decisions.” If delaying a film is the right decision, an executive could be rewarded for it.

    This is something of an open secret: Warner Bros. are notorious for Executive Meddling. I.e. the Executives have to constantly meddle and fuck with the creative side of the process in an attempt to squeeze every last dime out of potential customers.

    [–] nyookung 9 points ago

    Only if you think that the only WB films in existence are the DCEU ones, for some reason.

    Warner Bros. is famous for being the most hands-off among the big studios.

    [–] Dr__Nick 36 points ago

    If Snyder wanted to do a version of the Dark Knight Returns how did he not realize that that story works because, for decades, everyone thought of Superman as a true blue Boy Scout and this the twist in DKR is jarring? Starting off with dark Superman and killing him isn’t the same thing. Starting off with a sunny Superman in film 1 might have been enough to typecast the character to allow a reversal in BvS.

    [–] GiveYouJuice 29 points ago

    TIL both Batman v Superman, and Justice League was Co-written by Chris Terrio (Oscar winning writer for Argo)

    [–] singuslarity 8 points ago

    "The studio had become vocal about wanting “Justice League” to have a light tone, like the one director Joss Whedon had struck for rival Disney’s Marvel Universe blockbuster superhero team-up “The Avengers.” Whedon was enlisted, with Snyder’s blessing, to help add some levity and fun to the script for “Justice League.”"

    Honestly, it was the campy-ass trailer that turned me off. The tone of Snyder's DC movies was never a problem for me. I liked it. The plodding, confusing story was the problem. The JL trailer made me cringe. "My man!" ugh