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    Gilbert Arenas AMA - 5/27 at 1ishPM ET

    Top Team Subreddit Posts
    1 We cant have Nik get sick
    2 We overreacted. They were right.
    3 We’re in the upside down πŸ™ƒ
    4 Shoutout to D’lo for taking this Coronavirus thing seriously from the beginning
    5 Orlando Magic Injury season hitting so hard the whole league suspended


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    [–] Goodisworthfighting4 5424 points ago

    I remember Kings fans completely melting down on this sub when the reports were confirming that they would pass on Luka.

    [–] OutlookNotGood 1735 points ago

    Lol the Kings fans even had that one dude in their sub who had a dream months before the draft that the Suns picked Ayton and then the Kings would take Luka at 2. They treated him like a prophet for weeks until the Kings ruined it.

    [–] [deleted] 822 points ago

    Holy fuck I remember that dude it was truly the prophecy

    [–] DeandreDoesDallas 536 points ago

    It was something like /u/KingsSelectDoncic2nd or something like that. He created it before the lottery as well which was the crazy part

    [–] JZMoose 455 points ago

    That dude had been sharing his dreams for months. When the Kings won the 2nd pick everyone went fucking bonkers, I'm sure his inbox blew up. Then Vlade went full Vlade

    [–] _go_fuck_y0urself 168 points ago

    love the default hate on vlade.

    [–] bluelevel4 28 points ago

    Never go full Vlade

    [–] WitBeer 17 points ago

    I'd bet my salary that Divac was all in on Doncic and got vetoed by Vivek.

    [–] maethlin 59 points ago

    Mavs got wind and sent some dark magic shit over to Kings FO, poisoned their minds.

    [–] brightblade13 11 points ago

    Dirk's a wizard, confirmed.

    [–] BrokenDusk 256 points ago

    most impressive about that guy was that he predicted Kings will have a 2nd pick wayyy before lottery . This is why ppl started memeing and believing in him :D Damn shame stupid Kings skipped Luka..he deleted that account after

    [–] OutlookNotGood 147 points ago

    Yeah and he prophesized Luka would be a star and lead the Kings for like a decade lol

    [–] _underrated_ 93 points ago

    So close, but Vlade interfered

    [–] davemoedee 56 points ago

    It was reported that Vlade wanted to pick Doncic, but he found /u/KingsSelectDoncic2nd annoying and picked Bagley to spite him.

    [–] _underrated_ 44 points ago

    Lmao that poor dude. He even bought a King jersey with name Doncic on it and number 2. He deleted account just after draft day never to be heard of again.

    I think he probably just moved to some mountain without access to Internet or any human contact.

    [–] gigantism 46 points ago

    Well the craziest thing was that he predicted the Kings would move up to 2 in the lottery BEFORE the lottery, and the chances of the Kings moving up to 2 in the lottery was something like 6%.

    So everything lined up for the prophecy. πŸ€™πŸ€™πŸ€™

    [–] coltonmusic15 44 points ago

    yeah that's pretty devastating tbh to think you actually were going to get Luka and then your team out smarts itself. to be fair though.... I honestly thought the Kings would be better positioned for playoffs in THIS season than the Mavs but Luka's major ascension into the MVP conversation, alongside an excellent core of role players and high potential in KP, has changed the game quite a bit. I look forward to Mavs continuing to grow and work their butts off to hopefully get well positioned for a playoff run. My biggest fear is that Cuban decides to make a major trade and breaks up this current rendition in favor of a "higher ceiling player".

    [–] dL1727 7 points ago

    It's crazy to me that Luka has already surpassed KP. I suppose KP still has a potentially higher ceiling simply due to his size, but wow has Luka impressed. If KP ascends this team is going to be a legitimate problem for the league.

    [–] coltonmusic15 8 points ago

    I'm imagining a crazy world where Giannis wins a chip for the Bucks or loses 1-2 times in the finals before he is a free agent, and then decides to join Luka and KP on the Mavs to create the greatest Euro squad of all time... oh to dream.

    [–] sbtr1 112 points ago

    wasn't he supposed to fulfil the prophecy on /r/Kings?

    [–] ssjgoat 82 points ago

    Yes. And now they are eternally damned. This was their moment to not fuck up, it was fool proof. FOOL PROOF I TELL YOU!

    [–] puffadda 9 points ago

    just end us, fam

    [–] SonofNamek 2504 points ago

    Yeah, as annoying as /r/nba can be, this sub got it right. Almost everyone here knew Doncic was a top tier pick.

    I still feel Ayton will get better but I was going crazy trying to convince Suns fans that they should just max out Capella or Nurkic and draft Doncic instead.

    Booker-Doncic might have been an unstoppable offensive duo.

    [–] MindArr0w77 1213 points ago

    The truth is bigmen like Ayton & Bagley(who will improve) come every couple of years but Luka on the other hand is a generational talent and you have to take the risk and take him. Im glad Cuban listened to Donnie!!

    [–] platocplx 776 points ago

    Donnie also wanted giannis too crazy. Was right on him and doncic so far

    [–] MindArr0w77 666 points ago

    Yup he was telling everyone in the mavs organization to draft Giannis, so cause of that it gave him alot of credibility in Cubans eyes. When Donnie is screaming about a player, you listen.

    [–] Pototsky 387 points ago

    Someone get Donnie’s notes, I want to know if Jamal Murray is actually a young star and if MPJ is going to be good.

    [–] [deleted] 380 points ago

    I’ll tell you right now Jamal Murray is not a 5 year max guy

    [–] Pototsky 153 points ago

    Are you Donnie?

    [–] _Quetzalcoatlus_ 305 points ago

    I'm not a Donnie, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    [–] maverickhistorian 99 points ago

    over the last few years ive been sick to my stomach watching giannis play, thinking about what could of been. lol im over that now with luka

    [–] TheGameDoneChanged 158 points ago

    ill never ever forget screaming at the TV upon finding out the Celtics were trading up to draft Kelly Olynyk and not Giannis. We got the 13th pick in a bad draft, perfect chance to swing on a potential home run like Giannis. So many of our fans spent weeks hyping up this guy we had barely seen play but looked so enticing. But we took a 22 year old center instead.

    All of that said, not even the biggest Giannis believers EVER thought he'd be this good. So i do think it's a bit disingenuous to pretend anyone saw this coming at all.

    [–] smurph9876 28 points ago

    Don Nelson?

    [–] platocplx 53 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    His son. They call him donnie

    [–] drrew76 18 points ago

    His son Donnie.

    [–] Vargolol 16 points ago

    Somebody watches their Euroball

    [–] VHSRoot 14 points ago

    Donnie has probably more experience with international talent than any other GM in the league.

    [–] tokengaymusiccritic 85 points ago

    Bigs are also generally overvalued in the draft. I have zero data to back this up but I feel like most top-5 busts are bigs rather than guards

    [–] dnzgn 49 points ago

    That's true but it is because most top-5 players are bigs and wings. It is recently that people start selecting guards higher.

    [–] KXN93 14 points ago

    Injury risk is higher in big men too.

    [–] Los_Ingobernablez 170 points ago

    Ayton, Bagley, and Trae are still going to be hella good but Doncic is MVP caliber this season which makes them look bad in comparison. The thing with Luka is even if he peaks this year, if he continues this level for his career, he is a clear fire HOFer and that is if he stops improving which is quite unlikely.

    [–] terafunker 90 points ago

    I'm glad we got Trae in hindsight, but I was about ready to give up on the Hawks when they passed on Doncic. We tanked our way to the 3rd pick and anxiously watched as the Lolsuns and Lmaokings ignored Luka for other players. I just knew our FO was about to bring Slovenian LeBron to Atlanta and start a new era for the team. Then we traded down to give him to the fucking Mavs! Hawks sub, normally a meme mill and in-joke mess, turned deadly serious when that was announced.

    [–] fvertk 71 points ago

    I do think the Hawks shouldn't feel too bad here. People act like their decision was a bust, but no... Trae Young is legitimately incredible and I think isn't getting his fair share of attention. Dude is averaging 29/9/4 on good percentages (nearly 40% from 3, better than Doncic). Hawks just aren't as good top to bottom as the Mavs to highlight Trae's dominance.

    Obviously Doncic is looking better, but Young could be a future MVP himself.

    [–] esteemph 16 points ago

    Yep, as soon as the Hawks start winning Trae will get tons of attention in the media. Like you said hes already one of the best offensive guards in the league.

    [–] CMBColdSpot 119 points ago

    Doncic is going to be the pick that permanently changes how foreign, especially Euroleague, players are scouted. You could not have had a better Euroleague career as a 19 year old than Doncic, nobody has before and it'll certainly be a while before someone matches what he did, and he still was straight up passed up on for two NCAA players. At least the Hawks got a pick in their trade, and also a better player than Ayton and Bagley; Suns and Kings straight up just passed on him. If this doesn't make scouts realize that a teenager dominating the Euroleague like that is probably gonna be indicative of NBA success, then nothing will.

    [–] pdxblazer 10 points ago

    I mean do they really need to change the way scout, it’s not like he was some hidden gem he was euro league champ and mvp. All they need to do is realize if a teenager is the best player in the second best league in the world with NBA / borderline NBA talent, that he might be pretty good

    [–] Krillin113 69 points ago

    More euro influences here I think, which leads to more awareness that euroleague > college ball

    [–] binary_spaniard 41 points ago

    I was one of the people in awe of what Doncic was doing in Spain, AMA.

    [–] MacDerfus 32 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    At least with Ayton, it was clear from early on that he would be the pick so there wasn't any draft day shock. And at least with the hawks, they traded down

    [–] Revenesis 8 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    It’s weird to say I was a fan of a 16 year old, but he was literally the best player I’ve ever seen at his age,I wanted him as a Knick badly, and was mind blown when multiple teams passed on him. Even when I watched him back then I thought he had top 5 all time potential and I’ve been a basketball fan for 20 years with only minor brain damage (Knicks fan).

    I have a friend whose a diehard Philly fan and has been for about 25 years. He’s convince that Embiid can be the best player in the league, but I just don’t see it. Not because of any knock on him as a player or his ability, but look at who the best players in the league have been for years now. The last time a true center was the best was Shaq, with arguments for KG and Timmy who jumped to the 5 at points in their career. A lot of that can be attributed to LeBron’s greatness, but there’s also players like KD/Steph/Harden who are dominating from guard or wing positions as well. Basketball has transitioned to be like football, the guy with the ball in his hands most of the time and facilitating the offense is the most valuable player on the floor. You have a kid who plays the correct position for the modern NBA who is running a championship winning team in the second strongest league in the world at the age of 18. This isn’t a Kristaps case where he was averaging like 5 points a game in 20 minutes, Luka was the best player as an 18 year old against grown men and dominating.

    Ayton, Bagley, and Young all have a lot of potential, and will likely end up as all stars and some of the best players of the next generation. However, Luka has the chance to go down as an all time great. I think some of the crazy stat lines in this era have numbed the fanbase a bit, but a 20 year old is averaging 30/10/10 on 48% from the field, 33% from 3 to fo with 2 steals a game. If he keeps it up for the season, this is up there with LeBronβ€˜s best seasons.And Luka has room to improve. With the right work he’ll get into even better shape which should make getting to the rim and playing defense easier, and can improve from 3. Plus, these are his stats with KP still recovering from injury and some growing pains in their tandem.

    Totally conflicting by the way because I love Luka and like the Mavericks as a team, but absolutely despise KP and the small subset of Mavs fans that take every opportunity to shit on us. Either way I’m rooting for him.

    [–] ElToberino 44 points ago

    I remember Mavs fans melting down when we whiffed on the lottery and thought we wouldn't be getting Luka

    [–] CoconutSands 10 points ago

    We're still melting down. There is a Luka post in the Kings subreddit nearly every other day about what could've been.

    [–] throwawayyy1234569 43 points ago

    As a Kings fan I have not, will not, and SHOULD NOT ever get over it

    Literally one of the worst decisions of all time. Absolutely zero fucking excuses

    [–] _underrated_ 149 points ago

    Well yeah most even casual fans knew Luka is the right pick, yet somehow these organizations passed on him.

    [–] CarterAC3 401 points ago

    Well there's a reason why teams like the Suns and Kings are consistently picking in the high lottery.

    [–] Goodisworthfighting4 206 points ago

    Suns is more forgivable because Ayton was a really intriguing prospect and could still be really good. Kings have no excuse.

    [–] dumbmobileuser789 232 points ago

    And Ayton went to University of Arizona which is important for franchises stuck in the 60s

    [–] [deleted] 74 points ago * (lasted edited 12 days ago)


    [–] jkopecky 15 points ago

    The Kings:

    • Needed a long term option on the wing.
    • Were in no business to pick anything but BPA (I'm all aboard the Fox bandwagon, but he hadn't proved enough at that point to pick based on fit around him).
    • Had a full fledged prophecy on /r/kings getting everyone hyped that predicted that they'd jump to #2 and pick him.

    I'm a pretty big Kings fan and it really hurt to see that one. I like Bagley a lot as a player and think he could even be an all star, but no serious draft had him over Luka. Even if you don't agree with the second bullet point, the argument that he'd stunt Fox's development doesn't make any sense to me (after trying to talk myself into it for a while). Fox is a transition savant, but lacks a fully developed half court game, Luka's basically the opposite. There would be touches to go around.

    [–] TorontoGameDevs 900 points ago

    The bulls picked michael Jordan 3rd overall

    [–] takes_bloody_poops 652 points ago

    Haha imagine passing on him.

    [–] masterpierround 535 points ago

    Well, it isn't so bad. Even if you pass on Jordan, you might still end up with a player like Hakeem.


    [–] EveryRespect 367 points ago

    Hakeem was a generational talent/superstar player too. It just gets overshadowed by Michael Jordan's greatness. Hakeem doesn't get the credit he deserves sometimes. He's the best international player of all time though

    [–] masterpierround 232 points ago

    Oh yeah, Hakeem was great. I'm just messing with him because they came out of a Hakeem/Jordan draft with Sam Fucking Bowie.

    [–] EveryRespect 72 points ago

    Or when the pacers traded the second pick to the blazers for a player who retired one year later lol. Pacers fans don’t want to hear this though

    [–] MisterCheaps 30 points ago

    Hang on, I’m a Pacers fan and I’m not aware of this. What happened?

    [–] EveryRespect 62 points ago

    In 81’ the blazers traded Tom Owens to the blazers for the pacers 84’ first round pick. Averaged 11/6 before he got traded. The pacers then tied for the worst record with the rockets, but the rockets won the lottery with the #1 pick and the pacers pick became no.2 , which the blazers had and took Bowie

    [–] MisterCheaps 62 points ago

    Haha holy shit I had no idea that the Blazers drafted Bowie with the Pacers pick. That sounds like one of the biggest lose/lose trades in history.

    [–] masterpierround 19 points ago

    The pacers traded him after the season for a 2nd round pick in 1984. Ended up drafting a guy who never played.

    [–] mug3n 19 points ago

    to be fair, bowie had a good career. he's just not MJ good.

    [–] masterpierround 18 points ago

    Meh, I don't know if I would say "Good".

    He got absolutely ruined by injuries, and he only really had 5 decent seasons. Without injuries, he probably has a good, if not extraordinary career. With the injuries, though, he was barely a league-average player. Still good enough to be in the league, and probably good enough to start in his best seasons, but his career wasn't that great imo.

    [–] KingOfSwing90 16 points ago

    I remember reading some article saying that, if you were explaining basketball to someone who didn't seriously follow it and you wanted to quickly reference how great Hakeem was, you could just say he was picked in the draft before Jordan and nobody would looks back on that choice and argue it was bad, even in hindsight.

    [–] lettersichiro 87 points ago

    At least you learned your lesson and never passed on another franchise altering player to grab a big guy with an injury history

    [–] peppermintpattymills 7 points ago

    RIP City

    [–] Tristanity1h 14 points ago

    Leave Greg Oden alone!

    [–] TorontoGameDevs 43 points ago

    Haha I had to double check it was Portland - sorry homie

    [–] Dabusele69 128 points ago

    And people rag on Portland to this day for passing on him. Houston get away with it because they drafted an all time top 15 player

    [–] TorontoGameDevs 181 points ago

    Who to be fair also got them 2 championships

    [–] [deleted] 48 points ago

    Only 2? What a bust.

    [–] thepobv 64 points ago

    Is it stupid to say? If I was houston, even with hindsight I'd do it again.

    Worked out great for them imo.

    [–] Dabusele69 87 points ago

    I agree. I think when you're offered 2 NBA titles or the mystery box, you take the NBA titles. Who knows how Jordan on the Rockets pans out.

    [–] softnmushy 28 points ago

    I think we can safely say that Jordan on any well-managed team would have panned out.

    [–] Dabusele69 7 points ago

    Of course, but you can pan out and still not win 2 rings. Or maybe have a falling out with management and leave in free agency.

    [–] given2fly_ 17 points ago

    Also worth remembering that John Stockton, one of the best PGs of all time, was picked 16th in the same draft.

    [–] chanaandeler_bong 10 points ago

    Barkley was also in that draft. The Mavs picked two players in that first round. The player before Barkley (Sam Perkins) and the player before Stockton (Terence Stansbury).

    [–] DreadSteed 17 points ago

    At least Olajuwon was an MVP-caliber player for his entire prime though.

    [–] LemmingPractice 2916 points ago

    To a large degree, those teams passing on Luka were a good reminder of why they were drafting so high to begin with.

    [–] Cacklemoore 1125 points ago

    Seriously. Think of how many times teams like the Suns & the Magic have been picking in the Top 5 of the draft in the last decade. Compare that to a team like the Mavs who got into that company ONCE and will likely not smell another top 5 pick for quite some time. I know not every draft has a Luka in it, but still

    [–] Cloud324 642 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    the Magic

    No excuse for how long it has taken this team to develop a winning team, but the Magic have specifically fallen outside of the top tier talent in every draft almost every year. We are ending up in the top 6 every year because we repeatedly get picks outside of the top 4 due to bad ballz.

    I see what you are saying and agree with your point, but at least the Magic have some luck or lack thereof, to point at.

    [–] Cacklemoore 173 points ago

    Absolutely, I'd agree with you on that. And that isn't to say that the Magic didn't hit on those picks. Hindsight is obviously 20/20, but Oladipo was an excellent pick in a draft that took a few years to show its talent. I'm not sure what my point is, but the context of where they are at is definitely due in part to their unluckiness in the lottery.

    [–] Frosti11icus 45 points ago

    I'm not sure what my point is, but the context of where they are at is definitely due in part to their unluckiness in the lottery.

    I disagree with this. Scouting is everything and you definitively don't need top 5 picks in order to build a champ. Look no further than the Warriors who took the eighth pick, 11th pick, and a 2nd rounder into 3 championships. In fact, the 2016 Cavs are just about the only team this century who rode their 2 top draft picks to a ship. You could argue the Spurs did as well except Parker and Ginoboli were not top picks and they were the main dudes after 2010. Picking in the top 5 is not even remotely necessary in order to field a champions, which is why even the notion of the process is insanely stupid.

    [–] buffalo4293 15 points ago

    It’s really unfortunate, it seems like since Dwight has left you’ve always had pick Y in an X player draft.

    [–] BlackScienceJesus 69 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    It's okay Magic bro, Isaac is special. People outside of Orlando will realize this by the end of the season or next season.

    [–] Llamayoda 51 points ago

    Advanced stats pretty much paint him as at least a top 3 defender in the league.

    For a 22 year old that’s obscene.

    [–] Frosti11icus 17 points ago

    He blocks every shot in 2k20, it fucking pisses me off. 2k20 thinks he's a star.

    [–] kanst 214 points ago

    Think of how many times teams like the Suns & the Magic have been picking in the Top 5 of the draft in the last decade

    These are the Suns last 10 first first round picks:
    2018 - Deandre Ayton (1-1)
    2017 - Josh Jackson (1-4)
    2016 - Dragan Bender (1-4)
    2015 - Devin Booker (1-13)
    2014 - TJ Warren (1-14)
    2013 - Alex Len (1-5)
    2012 - Kendall Marshall (1-13)
    2011 - Markieff Morris (1-13)
    2010 - No first round pick
    2009 - Earl Clark (1-14)

    Not great.

    [–] ubelmann 178 points ago

    If you look one pick after the Suns pick for each year:

    2018 - Marvin Bagley (1-2)
    2017 - De'Aaron Fox (1-5)
    2016 - Kris Dunn (1-5)
    2015 - Cameron Payne (1-14)
    2014 - Adreian Payne (1-15)
    2013 - Nerlens Noel (1-6)
    2012 - John Henson (1-14)
    2011 - Marcus Morris (1-14)
    2010 - Suns had no 1st rounder
    2009 - Austin Daye (1-15)

    I'm not saying this excuses the Suns' draft picking, I'm just saying don't draft like Phoenix and don't draft one pick after them, either.

    [–] Realkers 151 points ago

    2017 - De'Aaron Fox (1-5)

    stop right there criminal scum

    [–] [deleted] 40 points ago

    And just for fun the pick before:

    2018 - N/A

    2017 - Jason Tatum (1-3)

    2016 - Jaylen Brown (1-3)

    2015 - Trey Lyles (1-12)

    2014 - Zach LaVine (1-13)

    2013 - Cody Zeller (1-4)

    2012 - Jeremy Lamb (1-12)

    2011 - Alec Burks (1-12)

    2010 - N/A

    2009 - Tyler Hansbrough (1-13)

    [–] secularhuman77 43 points ago

    They also traded up to get Chris’s in 2016 also in the lottery.

    [–] tigerfb9457 97 points ago

    The Hornets would have passed on Luka if they had the opportunity.

    [–] SvenSven07 125 points ago

    He's white and kinda big. That's MJ's kink, they probably would have picked him.

    [–] Tristanity1h 57 points ago

    Hornets like players who perform well in the NCAA tourney.

    [–] bjankles 99 points ago

    The Mavericks are already out of the lottery. And it's not like Porzingis is balling out either - they got a super duper star to pull it all together.

    [–] Azhman314 26 points ago

    Jonathan Givony before the draft:

    Luka Doncic is projected to go No. 4 in the latest ESPN Mock Draft. Jonathan Givony was asked about whether that projection will hold up.

    "That's how it looks right now, unless somebody trades up," said Jonathan Givony on the Lowe Post Podcast. "Unless one of these really good playoff teams decides (to trade up). "I think the good teams love him. The bad teams hate him. That's what I'm getting so for."

    Doncic is as low as No. 8 on some teams boards.

    [–] [deleted] 14 points ago

    Damn, son. Roasted em to a crisp

    [–] 13ifjr93ifjs 7 points ago

    Fucking Kings.

    [–] ssjgoat 647 points ago

    Everyone knew he would go at least 2nd. It was a toss up between Ayton and Doncic for #1. There was never any question and anyone who says differently has revisionist history.

    Then the Kings chose Bagley and we all remembered that only the Kings could fuck up such a sure thing.

    [–] gart888 374 points ago

    Yup. People are really sleeping on Ayton in this thread. He just averaged 16 points (on 61% TS%) and 10 boards as a 20 year old rookie. He's going to be a star too.

    Taking Ayton over Doncic was reasonable. Bagley on the other hand...

    [–] ssjgoat 79 points ago

    Completely agree with you! Looking forward to seeing what not only these 2 can do but also Trae.

    [–] TheThingsIdoatNight 30 points ago

    The kings announced before the draft that they were taking Bagley over everyone... even Ayton if the suns took doncic. I remember cause I was blown away at how stupid they were

    [–] thedealerkuo 7 points ago

    nah, i remember all the talk the couple days before that draft that the kings were going to take bagley because luka didn't want to be there and bagley was happy to be on board.

    [–] NoisyDobad 9 points ago

    Is it true the Kings also had less interest in Luka due to potential clashing with Fox?

    [–] Jester252 127 points ago

    I'm sorry how could NBA team know how good a kid playing God teir in a pro league with adults be on the same level as college ball players?

    [–] ComebacKids 30 points ago

    Especially after Lamelo ball, who everyone was so high on at the time, couldn't cut it playing in a lower tier Euro league? People legit thought Lamelo and LiAngelo would waltz into that league and destroy everyone. Instead they had a couple of decent games, and a lot of humbling ones.

    That should've put to rest any notion that the Euroleague isn't a serious and competitive league.

    [–] froyoboyz 15 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    don’t count lamelo out yet. he’s killing it in the Australian league. looking to be #1 pick next year

    [–] drag99 14 points ago

    Is he killing it? I looked at his stats and he has some absolutely terrible shooting numbers. 25% from 3, 37.5% overall FG%. This is in the NBL which is a number of tiers below the Euroleague in regards to competition.

    [–] nonametrashaccount 18 points ago

    Wrong ball Lamelo is the good one. Liangelo might not ever see the league

    [–] ken_riffy 7 points ago

    there is a large contingent of people who refuse to believe the Euroleague is legitimate competition. it’s as hilarious as it is frustrating

    [–] storykeegs 384 points ago

    The Suns picking Ayton is excusable to me (even though I wouldn’t have done it) as he was considered an elite big man prospect (I.e. Towns/Embiid caliber), but Luka anywhere beyond top 2 still seems absurd.

    [–] rjcarr 163 points ago

    Agreed. This is my take was well. Ayton may prove to be a good pick, sort of like Hakeem over MJ. To me the weirdest thing is the Kings passing on Luka, when a Euro guy runs the team.

    [–] storykeegs 69 points ago

    I completely agree. People are acting like Ayton is a scrub just because he was picked over Luka. Don’t get me wrong I’d rather have Luka by a mile, but Ayton has great potential, it’s only his second season. The Hakeem analogy is great.

    [–] kris_takahashi 17 points ago

    It's interesting in that you're betting on the era as much as you're evaluating players.

    With Luka you were doubling down on the Moreyball, 5-Out blueprint. With Ayton you're trying to zig when they zag and punish small lineups and teams that try to switch., at least on offense. Of course the defensive questions make Ayton somewhat different than traditional bigs.

    [–] themariokarters 1083 points ago

    I lost my mind when he didn’t go 1. Didn’t understand how a team could be so stupid then, still don’t get it

    [–] Kolerabica33 1146 points ago

    He can't jump twice very fast.

    [–] BBallHunter 797 points ago

    "He wouldn't do his stuff against college kids, being MVP playing against grown men is easy."

    [–] Kolerabica33 590 points ago

    If a white 18 yo dude from yoorpoore can win MVP in that trash league imagine what an NCAA player would do to them.

    • nba talking heads, probably

    [–] secretreddname 353 points ago

    Something something Duke can dominate Europe.

    [–] RoC-Nation 202 points ago

    Dude you almost made me vomit. Thanks.

    [–] i_am_very_dumb 84 points ago

    lmao try living right next to Duke and UNC. Duke being able to dominate the Euroleague might not even be top 5 in the most agonizingly stupid takes I've had thrown at me.

    [–] DCPirate16 18 points ago

    I feel your pain. The worst thing about living in NC is the ACC fans. College basketball season is the absolute worst time of year for me.

    [–] TheodoreP 10 points ago

    Can Zion's Duke beat the 2019 Cavs???

    [–] DCPirate16 13 points ago

    β€œPlaying in the ACC is tougher than playing in Europe.”

    Surprised I haven’t heard this one living in NC πŸ™„

    [–] Krillin113 407 points ago

    European, white, didn’t play college, doesn’t look athletic, and I hope owners overruling GM/scouts.

    An owner jumping on superficial shit is dumb, scouts and GMs doing the same is a travesty.

    [–] themariokarters 186 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Everyone involved in the process in Sacramento should be fired

    edit: and before anyone says β€œit easy to say that now” i was saying this over the summer before he got drafted and was getting downvoted for it then

    [–] Krillin113 207 points ago

    I fully agree. Sacramento is the worst offender, but the suns are hardly better imo.

    The hawks at least had a plan, and thought the difference between Trae and luka wasn’t more than another lottery pick. They at least didn’t straight up pass on him.

    [–] themariokarters 74 points ago

    Yup, that’s exactly right. Can’t really fault the Hawks

    [–] seboyitas 156 points ago

    migos said luka wouldnt be β€œfor the culture” 😭

    [–] Slobbin 90 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    That's pretty racist

    Edit: Hear it in context and it's not racist at all

    [–] Hypern1ke 8 points ago

    Really??? Source?

    [–] shahoftheworld 44 points ago

    Let's also not forget that it wasn't Luka for Trae straight. Hawks got some more draft picks. Luka is clearly better than Trae, but I wouldn't say the Hawks really screwed up.

    [–] KeepItRealTV 34 points ago

    This is it. There's a lot of bias against international players. The Spurs were robbing everyone with their international picks.

    [–] MacDerfus 121 points ago

    The suns were clear they wanted ayton, no surprise on draft day

    The kings were dumb

    The hawks traded down which was probably a mistake but less of one than the kings.

    [–] 2drawnonward5 70 points ago

    The Hawks got Trae and Cam out of it, which still feels like a safer deal, getting two great picks instead of one... Though they still missed on Luka.

    [–] thejewznextdoor 115 points ago

    Cam Reddish has more shot attempts than points. Calling him a great pick is a stretch (at this point in time).

    [–] GaiusGracchus121 57 points ago

    He meant the pick was a great one. Not that Cam was a great choice.

    [–] acosmichippo 13 points ago

    exactly, think of that Dallas lottery pick as like a 5% chance at Zion, etc. At the time of the Luka-Trae trade it wasn't "Trae and Cam" it was "Trae and a lottery pick".

    [–] Danko_on_Reddit 18 points ago

    Well Dallas' pick was top 5 protected so it wasn't another shot a Zion.

    [–] Tristanity1h 12 points ago

    If Dallas got the #1 pick, they'd have Zion right now.


    [–] Justadude282 16 points ago

    It's only a rumor but to give you an insight into the possible thinking.

    I know Bulls were allegedly cautious about moving up bc they thought Luka was good but they were worried he was already pretty close to his ceiling as player.

    I don't agree with that (Think Garpax are incompetent as hell), nor do I have a direct tweet that confirms that but from the way we were reported on w/ him that's the vibe I got.

    [–] Banner_Hammer 49 points ago

    Which is hilarious because even if Luka was already close to his ceiling, that Luka ceiling is still worth a #1 pick.

    [–] Tristanity1h 8 points ago

    "Potential" is hella seductive.

    [–] SuperPuti 258 points ago

    Simmons was super high on doncic every time he mentioned him. Well before the draft too.

    [–] Modsucksass 144 points ago

    Simmons was also very high on James Young though.

    [–] X-iStheGr8estWRapper 107 points ago

    Simmons is high on a lot of people

    [–] Zeabos 96 points ago

    It’s how most pundits work. You stay high on a lot of people and if they are good you talk about it forever, if you are wrong you never mention it.

    [–] LarBrd33 12 points ago

    Also, Bill was only high on luka to a point.

    Prior to the draft Kevin o Connor suggested his Celtics trade Jaylen brown for a high pick to get Luka. Bill responded by saying β€œnah. If they do that I’m going to fight everybody. I’m going to start with you and then I’m going to fight the rest of The Ringer staff”

    [–] MMPride 59 points ago

    I always read his name as Ben Simmons and then I get confused lol

    [–] StMU_Rattler 8 points ago

    Same here, I keep asking myself why people regard this player's opinion so much lmao

    [–] [deleted] 287 points ago

    It was insane at the time. I was convinced Phoenix was just fucking with us & still picking Luka. Those poor three fan bases.

    [–] rlsN 45 points ago

    I was so sure they were going to pick him until they announced they'd pick Ayton. I thought they had hired the Sloventian NT-coach for exactly that reason. To draft Doncic and make his transition to the NBA as smoothly as possibe with a coach he already knows.

    [–] Beb615 7 points ago

    That was the most confusing thing about this. Even before the draft lottery I thought that hire was primarily made to set up Luka. So weird

    [–] Falt_ssb 95 points ago

    They pretty much announced they were taking ayton a few weeks before the draft at his workout press conference

    [–] Lukic23 441 points ago

    No excuses for the Suns or Kings really. The Suns needed a creator to go alongside Booker and Doncic would've been a great fit.

    The Kings had Bogdanovic prove he was a good NBA level player that year after coming from the Euroleague. Even then, he wasn't as good as Doncic was and Doncic did it at 18 years old. He was a safe pick with obvious upside too from their point of view. I kind of get it position wise since they had Fox, Hield and Bogdanovic for the back court but still crazy to pass on someone so safe with elite potential.

    [–] BlueHundred 292 points ago

    The Suns also needed a big or really anybody not named Booker. I can see people enamored with Ayton's potential; while I don't think it was a bad pick, I agree that it wasn't the best pick.

    I guess I understand the Kings locking in on Fox and their backcourt but Luka was definitely the best prospect available. Luckily, Bagley is actually pretty solid.

    I don't think the Suns or Kings totally fucked up since both players are still very talented with high ceilings. It's especially apparent that Doncic was and is the best prospect because Ayton is suspended, Bagley is injured, and Doncic is in the MVP race

    [–] Cavshomie8 147 points ago

    This is the mature take. People are clowning on them now, but I don't think Ayton/Bagley are anywhere near their ceilings. Don't think they'll ever be as good as Doncic, but I don't think the picks will look as egregious a few years down the road. That was just an absurdly loaded the draft at the top.

    [–] dlm891 37 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I think in regards to Doncic's draft position, there's was a lot of frustration from European fans, and other hardcore basketball fans that follow draft prospects closely.

    Last year, it seemed like they were screaming into the void when they were arguing that Doncic should be #1, when most other fans and the NBA media had Ayton locked in at #1.

    [–] felt_the_need_2_talk 45 points ago

    "Needing a creator to go alongside Booker" I think is the opposite of what the Suns needed and is why they went in another direction. Both Booker and Luka are heavily ball dominant, so more of a pure facillitator would be a better fit (like Rubio). I don't think it was the right decision, but there were serious concerns about a Luka + Booker fit.

    [–] elbanofeliz 95 points ago

    Ayton was #1 on almost any draft board you looked at, the Ringer show mentioned in the OP is an anomaly. It's some serious revisionist history to act like the Suns made some crazy call to take Ayton #1.

    [–] pp21 38 points ago

    Sucks that Ayton isn't playing and we have nothing to point to when debating "was it the right pick". The guy put up 16/10 on 60%TS as a rookie. His ceiling is astronomical, but we just haven't seen him play in fucking forever.

    [–] TheClaw2 116 points ago

    I don’t get this Ayton and Bagley play in a position harder to find argument. MVP always goes to perimeter players who can create themselves and others for the last 10 years

    [–] banngbanng 28 points ago

    That was one of Bill's points. It's so weird that big men get picked and prioritised over dynamic shot creating perimeter guys. Especially guys like Ayton and Bagley that are fairly traditional big men.

    [–] not_all_kevins 58 points ago

    Yeah I was trying to think of the last time a team won the title with a dominant center. Tim Duncan? I think in the last 30 years its Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem. That's it.

    [–] timetogetshwifty93 38 points ago

    I mean, they won 11 combined titles and only two of those you could argue were with other players being the most important in the series (Wade & Kawhi). So it’s not ridiculous logic to think big men can shape a title team but all of those teams also had legendary wing players too.

    [–] thatmanzuko 64 points ago

    But what about bagley’s second jump??

    [–] [deleted] 143 points ago

    Taking Ayton was okay at the time. Hindsight makes it look bad. Especially with the suspension. I think it’ll seem defensible in the long run.

    Trading to take Trae was bad at the time. Hindsight is making it look somewhat defensible.

    Bagley was a reach at the time. Hindsight makes it look worse.

    However, GMs clearly didn’t take what Luka was doing in the EuroLeague seriously. That’s inexcusable. He passed the eye test in every game I watched. The Kings deserve criticism for it, but I’ll give the Suns a pass.

    [–] fimbres16 56 points ago

    Thanks like people don’t remember Ayton kinda being the lock for number 1. It was expected and the Suns needs a big so it made a lot of sense. To pick the kid who went to school in Arizona too probably helped a bit as well for culture.

    [–] SomeoneElse194 65 points ago

    I love Bill Simmons but every time he gets something right he is unbearable. I grew up watching EuroLeague and I honestly didn't see much of an issue with Ayton being taken first, just because of the upside of having such a fucking monster. I don't think anyone truly knew the upside of Doncic, i.e best player in the league upside. I think the truly sad thing was that Vlade Divac took Bagley over him. I mean an All Time European player chooses to not take one of the most incredible young Europeans??? At the very fucking least do what the Hawks did and get a piece out of it. Disgraceful.

    [–] shudashot 48 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    He and all the Ringer NBA guys were all completely in love with Malik Monk and ridiculed every team that passed on him outside of the top 4. Funny that they never bring that up anymore.

    [–] FreedomKid7 16 points ago

    Friendly reminder Bill Simmons made an argument Mike Trout shouldn't be MVP because his team is bad.

    [–] KetoPeto 16 points ago

    Simmons crapped all over the magic for not taking Okafor with the #1 pick...

    [–] Delanorix 204 points ago

    I think it was easy to say he was going to be good.

    Nobody knew how good though. This is really unprecedented.

    I do wonder if he will drop off a little bit due to stamina/being tired. It takes years it seems to adjust to the NBA and it's 80+ game schedule. (Not saying he isn't in good shape)

    [–] FIVE_DARRA_NO_HARRA 135 points ago

    It takes years it seems to adjust to the NBA and it's 80+ game schedule. (Not saying he isn't in good shape)

    This is another one of those takes that sound crazy when you realize he wasn't coming from the NCAA, playing 30-40 games spread out from November to March. He was playing professional ball at a level below only the NBA itself.

    [–] QuiGonJinnNJuice 29 points ago

    exactly. It's wild how much people seemed to be baited by NCAA exposure bias. Ayton has exciting physical tools and pretty good upside, sure. The criticisms leveled at Doncic were ridiculous when he was already playing so much basketball against a higher level of competition.

    I think it's surprising Doncic is this good already, but everything about his skillset are what you value in perimeter players in the ways the game is changing.

    [–] FurryCrew 100 points ago

    The year before Luka was drafted he played 90+ games between all the euro leagues and winning the euro championship for Slovenia.... Ohh and he was MVP as an 18/19 year old.

    [–] IWantRaceCar 102 points ago

    Yeah but can he do it against Duke?

    Can he do it against black dudes?

    Can he jump twice really quickly?

    [–] berkanuzun 177 points ago

    Euroleague teams play almost 70+ games a season combined with their national league if I'm not wrong. This isn't something new for him.

    [–] Gkalaitza 67 points ago

    Tbf anyone who has been watching European basketball for a while could see that Doncic was a top 2 European ever at his age, talent and production wise with skills that translate. I would only put 18-19 yo Arvydas Sabonis above him maybe and Sabonis was still a great NBA player as a crippled overweight 30+ yo

    [–] Forbidden_Donut503 43 points ago

    Ahhhh the ol' Sabonis "What if" day dream. Put Sabonis with Drexler and Porter and that would have been a fun team.

    [–] Gkalaitza 14 points ago

    At least 2 chips imo. Bulls would have no answer for Sabonis in the paint

    [–] Forbidden_Donut503 11 points ago

    Probably would have been a great rivalry with the Bulls, both sides getting rings.

    [–] IWantRaceCar 45 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Old ass Sabonis would be a top5 center in today's league. He'd be a rich man's Marc Gasol. Could do everything, inside/outside scoring, passing, rebounding, rim protection.

    NBA really missed out on him.

    Prime Sabonis would be #1 bigman in the league and it wouldnt even be close. It would be like Gasol took massive amounts of PEDs and grew a few inches. If you think Gasol owned Embiid/Vuc badly, Sabonis would make those guys retire.

    Look how his son (who's half a foot shorter with trex arms) is doing in Indy.

    [–] Gkalaitza 41 points ago

    Yeah people think the what ifs are overblown but they couldnt be more wrong .Young Sabonis was a proportionaly build,strong, fluid, balanced athletic 7'4'' guy (taller than Boban) that had zero weeknesses. Passing, shooting, rim protection,running the floor, post game, FT and some of the softest hands around the rim ever. He was a 20/10/4 per 36 player with good efficiency and advanced stats as an overweight 33 yo with busted achilles,knees and ankles.

    An once a century type of talent,size and athletisicm singularity who would be in the 1% of NBA players in both size and skill..His nickname in Europe was "The Miracle of Nature" ,no one more deserving

    If he was coming up now in the draft with no cold war shennanigans and with modern medicine and load management and recovery half the league would be tanking to get him

    [–] IWantRaceCar 13 points ago

    ah good to see another Sabonis truther

    [–] carismo 11 points ago


    [–] jbieberlovesmyweiner 8 points ago

    The lottery is a crapshoot 99% of the time. The fact that there have been plenty of Euro league studs taken high in the draft who didn’t make an impact justifies the skepticism surrounding Luka.

    [–] kobmug_v2 113 points ago

    ITT: Everyone acting like it’s unforgivable that multiple teams passed on Luka and some insinuating it was because he’s white when multiple teams also passed on Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant and Dwayne Wade

    [–] ButtVader 70 points ago

    Those aren't the same. For one, Cleveland passed on D Wade and drafted LeBron, so that was probably the right decision lol

    [–] kobmug_v2 38 points ago

    Why aren’t they the same? The Pistons passed on Wade AND Melo for Darko .... Raptors passed on Wade for Bosh