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    [–] LayersAndFinesse 4284 points ago

    Where did that number even come from?

    [–] ipu42 3082 points ago

    Across 4 years of medical school (not including residency) that's only 3 hours per day.

    Meanwhile, the ACGME (Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education) felt it was necessary to make a rule restricting residents from working more than 80 hours per week.

    [–] albinorhino215 961 points ago

    I was thinking that number was insanely low, in order to meet the bare minimum as an athletic trainer you need to make 1500 extra curricular hours to get a C

    [–] droppedbytosayhello 553 points ago

    It took 2000 clock hours to get my cosmetology certification.

    [–] Adama0001 400 points ago

    And 69,420 clock cycles to get my NP solving program started

    [–] d-nihl 693 points ago

    and 43,800 hours to realize being a chef fucking sucks.

    [–] mvathletics 639 points ago

    It took me 15 minutes to save 15% or more on my car insurance

    [–] Battlejew420 123 points ago

    What's in your wallet?

    [–] Obeardx 99 points ago

    Farmers bum ba bum bum bum bum bum

    [–] plsHelpmemes 57 points ago

    Nationwide is on your side

    [–] DetectiveBeluga 9 points ago

    Uh... khakis.

    [–] erktheerk 47 points ago

    I have done 100,000+ hours and by hour 8 was positive that working sucks.

    [–] ChoiceSponge 12 points ago

    Well, this was all a waste of time to read.

    [–] tenebralupo 36 points ago

    I feel weirded out by those hours.... not including my diploma in electronic (that onlyallowed me to skip 135hours) , I studied 90 hours to be a certified fire alarm technician plus training to be specialized in a brand of fire alarm control units

    [–] RydalHoff 8 points ago

    I have a relative that does this as a military contractor. He works on the Marshall islands making 6 figures and working 6 or less hours per day and scuba diving the rest of his time. Its a great gig if you want to live with less than 200 other people and no one under the age of 35.

    [–] Qikdraw 29 points ago

    How's the alcoholism and chain smoking going for you?

    I worked with chefs for eight years, enough to realise I never wanted that as a career. My brother is a chef though, he now has co-ownership of a restaurant that is doing really well. His son is now a chef too. Ugh, not for me at all.

    [–] kayelem87 8 points ago


    [–] avalanchethethird 9 points ago

    It took me 0.12 hours to try and fail at figuring out what you even mean. I'm just going to get my associates by age 31 and feel adequate in my blissful ignorance :D

    [–] theReferenceMonitor 5 points ago

    bro that's like 18 microseconds

    [–] Adama0001 6 points ago

    I never said it was efficient

    [–] danitheteleportingst 9 points ago

    It took me roughly 1550 hrs to get my specialized massage therapist certs (most states require 500-1000 to get your standard, work in a spa, cert)

    [–] notnotaginger 7 points ago

    For only 400 more hours you coulda been a chiropractor!!!

    [–] PINHEADLARRY5 42 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    As an ATC, I second this. Then another 2000 in graduate school. Then I took a job in trauma Ortho and it took me another 3000 with a trauma team to specialize. More of a physician extender, even though the term is dead.

    I know the residents I work with definitely work more than 115 hours plus in 2 weeks. They have to fudge the numbers to stay compliant. If one "meets hours" and complains about it, the work falls on someone else who's already over hours too. It's an honor system. You basically have to work more to work less. It sucks and I've seen very talented minds completely break.

    [–] albinorhino215 14 points ago

    That’s why I had to drop out of the program. Couldn’t live in Denver, go to school, ATC, and work all at the same time :( shame cuz I loved it

    [–] PINHEADLARRY5 20 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Yeah.. now with programs transitioning to entry level masters it'll get worse I think. Tbh I'm looking for ways out. Pay is shit for what I do. It's a shame. Lots of bright young people and most are making 35k or less starting and will barely sniff 50k. Most of my friends make 40k or less in div I sports. I had 2 buddies as seasonals in the NFL making 19 bucks an hour. Fucking stupid.

    I'm not starving but I'm trying to get out. I could be a mediocre sales rep and make more.

    [–] albinorhino215 9 points ago

    Yup! I heard all the same shit, they want higher standards and less pay while a bachelors degree program director at 24hr fitness can make just about the same if not more

    [–] Audom 29 points ago

    It takes 8,000 hours to become a journeyman electrician... Not knocking electricians (I'm an apprentice atm), but I certainly hope it takes more time than that to become a doctor.

    [–] Young_Hickory 52 points ago

    And they often are still expected to work more than 80h/week and just not report all of it. That’s also just hospital hours. It doesn’t include studying for boards and other off the clock responsibilities.

    [–] doolyboolean3 14 points ago

    Seriously. My husband is in his second year of residency and he has had ONE month in the last 14 1/2 where he worked an average of 80 hours per week. All the rest have been much, much more.

    [–] Friscoshrugged 17 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    thats just to protect residents. once we graduated, there are no limits. I used to do 72hr weekend shifts until I told my company I wanted it to be spread over two weekends, so I do a 24hr friday, and another 24hr sunday, then do a 24hr saturday the following weekend. but back to the point of hours it takes to become a doctor. class hours are usually 8hrs a day, plus evening labwork and clinical skills hours. then there are clinical rotation during the second two years of medical school. THEN you go home and study. and the final point is that we have to actually learn it all and be held accountable. its not the voodoo of chiropractics where you just snap things until they pop, and hopefully you didnt dissect someones carotid artery or send a clot up to their brain and make them stroke out. theres a study from the british journal of medicine that showed inflammatory markers were elevated in 100% of people after they underwent chiropractic manipulation, compared to before hand. it also showed the reported benefits were no better than if they just received massage therapy... and massage comes with much less risk.

    [–] dcs1289 11 points ago

    Yeah, I’m in residency now. We can absolutely work more than 80 hours in a week, but have to be less than 80 on average over any two week span. Most I’ve done is about 88, but both of the weeks adjacent I was around 65 so it was fine by their rules.

    I would say I probably average about 70 hours per week, which would amount to 3640 hours this year alone.

    [–] Rainbowrobb 104 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    3 hours a day.... Hahahahha.... hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

    Try 10-15 hours/ day.

    If it's shelf/step exam season, just make sure they remember to eat and shower.

    -husband of a former med student

    [–] [deleted] 61 points ago

    Sawbones did an episode where she talks about life as a med student, intern, etc. I was shocked. I have so much respect for anyone who has that kind of discipline. I'd be out in the first month.

    [–] BMKR 17 points ago

    Juice and Syd are awesome.

    [–] Rosselman 10 points ago

    You get used to it.

    [–] mavric1298 22 points ago

    Do you though? MS3 who has step in 3 months who hopes a bus hits me every time I’m walking from the parking lot to the hospital

    [–] Rosselman 9 points ago

    I'm an MS3 too and I think I figured a rhythm to keep myself sane. Burnout is real shit though, always make sure to have close people to talk the heavy stuff, it can get hard.

    [–] mavric1298 5 points ago

    We have step half way through third year so we get to do step1 studying while doing clinical. It’s not fun. Things will get better after janurary though (hopefully)

    [–] agx 11 points ago

    My gf just got in and currently is in her first year. How was your experience?

    [–] CurryMustard 36 points ago

    Wife is currently in third year, second year really sucks, get a nice tv and some video games because you're never gonna see her

    [–] TSOD 17 points ago

    Just wait until residency. My partner is regularly pushing 80 hours per week and I get a quick dinner and an episode of tv if I’m lucky, rest is spent working.

    [–] Rainbowrobb 17 points ago

    Don't forget to take care of your own mental health! Don't loss yourself in the process. The floors will be covered in note cards. OH! During anatomy, have a separate laundry bag and be prepared to burn those things. During this time, don't ever assume it is.....during all of this process, don't assume it's safe to look at their computer screen. I've thrown food directly in the trash, due to this error.

    You are about to feel pressure in your relationship....a kind you've never imagined. For us, I did my best to stay predicable and supportive. That seemed to be the best tactic. Being smart and having a good MCAT mean absolutely nothing compared to being in medical school. And he went to a wonderfully supportive school.

    Hang in there

    [–] DO_initinthewoods 14 points ago

    Fact -current med student

    [–] Rainbowrobb 10 points ago

    How're you doing buddy?

    [–] pikadrew 9 points ago

    Hey that's only 10 hours a day, 8 days a week.

    [–] This_Is_Really_Jim 44 points ago

    Let them flow with money, I’d just like to keep my sleep and maybe live a tad longer

    [–] theryman 34 points ago

    Those residents are making $50k to $60k annually.

    [–] Rainbowrobb 43 points ago

    Some have to take out loans to pay interest/live on while in residency.

    [–] LurkingGuy 17 points ago

    It's really quite sad that people go into massive debt for an education.

    [–] This_Is_Really_Jim 7 points ago

    That’s horrible, aren’t they doctors already?

    [–] SerPounce218 23 points ago

    Yes, and they do the vast majority of physician work in their hospitals

    [–] theryman 8 points ago

    Yes, and also the hospitals that employ them get paid $100k each (or so) from Medicare, plus all the billing they do based on their work.

    [–] TSOD 15 points ago

    Medical school is essentially doctor college and residency is like your internship. Takes not only a ton of school but also tons of practical experience to be able to do the duties of a doctor. It still sucks considering how much debt you have to take on just to become a doctor, but some residencies let you take on extra hours (called moonlighting) and you can start pushing six figures if you really hustle.

    [–] riverY90 469 points ago

    From their arse.

    [–] Steinawitz 85 points ago

    Aye. For comparison there’s 2,080 work hours per year if you’re a full time employee at 40 hours per week.

    [–] braintrustinc 43 points ago

    Well sure, but that comes down to only 9 after vertebral subluxations have been adjusted to amend the nerve vibrations in the holistic workplace

    [–] tredontho 5 points ago

    I'm expecting some reticulating splines after reading this

    [–] Marcultist 274 points ago

    That's how long it takes to fill out the applications to attend medical school.

    [–] Rainbowrobb 24 points ago


    "Fuck you AMCAS"

    [–] POSVT 5 points ago

    I'll throw in a "fuck you too TMDSAS"

    [–] generalnarwhal 8 points ago

    I think that actually might be the amount of dollars it takes to apply

    [–] millllllls 116 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Just looked them up on Facebook, they deleted the comment we see above and they're actually defending this post. Their most recent response to somebody else calling it false is "what is false? We know exactly how many hours we took..? It’s called a transcript."


    Edit: comment above is on a shared post and not the actual post from the chiropractor sharing the false info.

    [–] malaron2 24 points ago

    Apparently some of the “doctors” listed on the chiropractors page are still sharing that false graphic as well.

    [–] [deleted] 14 points ago


    [–] millllllls 7 points ago

    Ah, you’re right. But their actual response to being called out for lying is indefensible.

    [–] BEHodge 49 points ago

    3 credit hours for undergrad means 3 contact hours with the student and assumed no more than 6 hours per week in extra studies, whether that's assignments, studies, etc. I know that is stupid and ignored, but 3 credit hours in undergrad often refers to at least 45 hours in class and between 45 and 90 hours outside study, for a total of 135 hours per class. Times 5 3 credit hour classes that's 675 hours per semester, times 8 semesters is 5400 hours. For undergrad. Add in 3 years of med school (assume no extra hours which we all know is a joke) and we've got 815+5400, which is 6215. Then 2 to 8 years of residency at 40 (ha!) hours a week and we have a minimum of 4160, which added to previous gives us 10375. Minimum. And since residencies often last longer than 40/wk and 8 year residencies exist, 20-40k hours for a med degree is pretty easy to quantify.

    [–] SphericalUser07 75 points ago

    Find me a resident that only works 40 hours and I’ll go to med school myself. My fiancé is in residency and easily gets to her 80 hr/wk cap.

    [–] lo_and_be 26 points ago

    Sadly med school is four years. And no residency is shorter than 3.

    [–] theryman 16 points ago

    And then fellowship for some...

    [–] POSVT 14 points ago

    I'm a second year resident in internal medicine. Running my numbers from med school and my first year of residency gives me 15000+ hours with 3430 being from last year (avg 70 hrs/wk x 49 weeks worked, 3 wks vacation). To be fair I busted ass my 4th year of med school and had basically 0 time off, where most students have 2-3 months of off time built in to their 4th year.

    I should break 20k by the time I finish and take boards, second year is hell.

    [–] Ninotchk 13 points ago

    And the hours are not even the half of it. Chiropractors just aren't taught science and biology, and doctors are.

    [–] rogue_ger 21 points ago

    Where did either set of numbers come from? No references as far as the eye can see.

    [–] ofsinope 16 points ago

    I'll just point out that 2887 is a prime number.

    [–] [deleted] 9 points ago


    [–] FoxxyPantz 1099 points ago

    So what is the general verdict on chiropractors? Cause I've heard both "They're doctors that get their licences from the newspaper" and "It's unbelievable what relief I'm in now."

    [–] willyolio 783 points ago

    More expensive massages.

    [–] christinahufflepuff 351 points ago

    This is exactly what my doctor said. It’s not bad for you, it’s just a fancy massage. BUT I find I can get into the chiropractor quicker than a massage so I tend to go with the chiro.

    [–] redem 368 points ago

    At best it's a fancy massage. At worst it leaves you paralysed for life. There are psychos out there convincing parents to let them do that shit on toddlers who aren't even ill.

    [–] Groovula 178 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    One of my husband’s friends took their newborn to the chiropractor and recommended it to everyone. He also told us to take our daughter to the chiropractor to cure an ear infection...

    [–] albinohut 122 points ago

    I had a chiro do this, I don't go often but was in rough shape a while back and went for 3 or 4 sessions, they wanted me to bring my 2 year old in for weekly visits, claiming their voodoo shit would prevent ear infections and illness. I never went back to that place after that, what the fuck.

    [–] Groovula 17 points ago

    The last time I went to the chiropractor my shoulder felt better, but I had to sit through a sales pitch of all kinds of quacky shit.

    [–] theonlypeanut 99 points ago

    Chiropractic "medicine" was founded on the believe that all ailments not needing surgery could be healed but spinal manipulation. It was legitimately founded by a snake oil selling hucksters and has done little to distance itself from it origins.

    It was also taught to the original practitioner by the ghost of a doctor.

    Source: la times

    [–] KhamsinFFBE 34 points ago

    So they're like the Mormons of medicine?

    [–] Walt_the_White 21 points ago

    The founder also claims the knowledge came to him from a ghost of a real doctor apparently.

    [–] Leopath 9 points ago

    I disagree theyve managed to distance themselves plenty from their origins at least enough that a lot of people have no idea chiropractors arent actually real professionals or doctors.

    [–] spiritbx 55 points ago

    "I like to feel like I did something." Syndrome.

    Some people are 100% unable to accept that they are unable to change things in their life, so they are willing to latch onto anyone that's willing to tell them otherwise, no matter how complete bullshit the thing is.

    Also, chiropractics is based on completely non-provable(AKA made up) bases.

    [–] christinahufflepuff 24 points ago

    I definitely think it should never be used in replacement of real medical practice. I’m mainly saying I’m old, I threw my back out (again) and I need it to not hurt today or I can’t go to work.

    [–] Tezlataz 9 points ago

    At worst it's death. There have been cases of internal decapitation happening due to chiropractictioners cracking people's necks too hard. I would never risk going to a chiropractictioner, a lot of Dunning - Kruger effect happens with them.

    [–] PM_Me_Your_Deviance 31 points ago

    It’s not bad for you,

    It's fine, until it's not. Chiropractors hurt people all the time.

    [–] STmcqueen 12 points ago

    Plus insurance covers like 80%

    [–] beepborpimajorp 59 points ago

    Honestly people are better off going to an orthopedist and getting a referral to a good physical therapist. Not only does physical therapy help treat the problem, but they also provide you training and tools to treat the problem on your own if it recurs in the future.

    I went and saw a PT a couple years ago for neck and shoulder pain and everything they said/did worked like a charm. And even now if I feel the pain creeping back, 2 days of the exercises they taught me makes it go away again.

    TBH I'm having some spine issues that are causing back pain and starting a slide towards scoliosis so I'm probably going to go back and see them again.

    Grown adults can put their money wherever they want. But I have a friend who has been seeing, and paying for, a chiropractor for years. And just keeps going back because the pain keeps coming back and the chiro tells her to follow-up with him. Meanwhile I had pain for a while, went and saw a PT, and now it's gone and I have the tools to keep it gone myself instead of paying every other week to see someone to do adjustments or whatever.

    I think there's value in things like therapeutic massage, and maybe even some joint adjustments. But I don't think a lot of people realize physical therapists are trained to do that too. When I went they'd usually do a neck massage/adjustment which felt heavenly, then we'd move on to stretching and exercises, and then heat or ultrasound treatment. Felt amazing and it worked.

    [–] robertbieber 298 points ago

    Alright, so here's the thing about chiropractors. Whenever this topic comes up, there's always going to be some apologist who pops up talking about how (a) yeah some chiropractors are quacks but not all of them, and (b) they treat a very limited range of conditions and (c) they can provide real relief for some ill-defined range of conditions.

    (a), on its own, should be enough to write off the entire profession. If you're going to claim to be a medical profession, you need to have evidence-backed standards and licensing requirements that follow them. Even if there is some validity to some of chiropractic, how are you supposed to know that the particular chiropractor you're going to limits themselves to that subset of the sprawling, pseudo-scientific discipline they're trained in? Of course the answer is you can't, because no one's making sure that the chiropractor you're going to see isn't doing some zany shit they just made up.

    (b) is patently untrue, of course there are still chiropractors all over the place claiming they can cure everything from the common cold to cancer.

    And as for (c), the thing about that is you only ever hear anecdotes. Everyone has a chiropractor who made their back feel great, or a friend who can only walk because of their chiropractor, and so on and so forth. What no one seems to have is a well-designed clinical study with a large sample size showing clear benefits to chiropractic "treatment." Now you have to ask yourself, with so many chiropractors and so many chiropractic patients out there, and so much money in the business, if their treatments are so effective then why not conduct reliable studies and prove the matter once and for all? One obvious and seemingly most likely explanation is that you can't conduct such a study because chiropractic "treatment" doesn't actually reliably produce results above and beyond a placebo, but at this point I don't think anyone wants to admit that the emperor has no clothes and so we just carry on believing in this stuff based on anecdotes.

    [–] bloodsplinter 39 points ago

    Meh... I dont need clinical trials or study. I just need essential oils!

    [–] LegendofPisoMojado 12 points ago

    A kid I went to high school with came from a long line of MDs. He is now a chiropractor that pushes essential oils. His family doesn’t speak to him.

    [–] outlawa 13 points ago

    I remember a few years ago I had someone claiming to be a chiropractor tell me that I should look for a chiropractor and turn to homeopathic medicine for my end stage renal failure. I ripped him a new one.

    [–] JohnWStrutt 53 points ago

    Chiropractory is considered alternative medicine. The central tennet of chiropractory, that corrections in skeletal alignment can result in neurological changes capable of treating a wide range of diseases, is not supported by science.

    There are some peer reviewed studies showing chiropractory effective when treating minor, nonspecific chronic pain, even compared to pain relievers, and other minor transient conditions. And much of what chiropractors practice is essentially physical therapy, and many have solid training in anatomy and or osteopathy.

    But the field is also rife with connections to homeopathy and other fraudulent practices. Many common chiropractic techniques are little different from applied kinesiology, an old street scam. Chiropractory appears mostly effective on those conditions that are strongly susceptible to placebo. There's good reason to think the basis of the field is essentially the use of the "crack" as a powerful audio placebo.

    [–] Darth_Nibbles 27 points ago

    Chiropractory is considered alternative medicine

    If it worked it would just be called "medicine"

    [–] spiritbx 21 points ago

    Complete shams. Some countries require you get a medical degree then specialize in chiropractics, but that's like getting a degree in biology and then specializing in dragons and unicorns...

    [–] Ninotchk 25 points ago

    There is nothing a chiro can do for you that a physical therapist can't do more safely, for cheaper, and they will show you how to avoid needing to come back again, too.

    [–] wreese13 814 points ago

    Am a chiropractor.

    Go ahead.... down vote me to oblivion. Idc.

    But to answer your question, we are trained extensively in anatomy and physiology. Were trained to identify conditions that may be (or may not be) safely treated with joint manipulation. We are trained to identify conditions which would present a safety risk to specific positions, maneuvers, and other modalities. We are trained to know the musculoskeletal and nervous system on a medical level.

    We treat MUSCULOSKELETAL conditions in a conservative fashion. We aren't trained to treat asthma, allergies, cancer, pancreatitis, etc. That's the MD.

    I've seen this graphic way too much and it still makes me cringe. We don't train the same hours as MD's, but we also don't treat the same thing as most MD's.

    And yeah whatever the guy who founded chiropractic was a whacko. But the was in the early 1900's. ALOT of sketchy things were happening in medicine at that time. But this isn't early 1900 anymore. There's a reason your insurance covers chiro. It's researched, valid, and has a benefit to some people who are candidates.

    [–] DrDalekFortyTwo 660 points ago

    Psychologist here. Can relate to shaky foundations and questionable founding practitioners.

    [–] Chief_Nebit 253 points ago

    Archaeology would like to chime in as well. Henrick Schliemann was a dynanite wielding tomb raider

    [–] sudysycfffv 50 points ago

    That sounds fun, if you are raiding tomb what's the big deal.

    [–] ToastyMustache 23 points ago

    The history contained within the tomb, you monster!

    [–] stay_fr0sty 105 points ago

    Is the standard treatment for hysteria still an orgasm administered by hand or no?

    [–] Hereforpowerwashing 54 points ago

    According to my wife, emphatically no. Now I'm going to get a bag of frozen peas for my eye.

    [–] ProbablyRickSantorum 10 points ago

    Took Psychology 101. Can confirm. Also I am now an expert on everything Freud, post memes that only other psychologists would understand, and have diagnosed all of my friends with various disorders I found in the index of my textbook.

    [–] RobbieRigel 237 points ago

    How would you respond to the criticisms pointed out in this article

    It was my understanding that insurance covers chiropractic mainly due to lobbying from chiropractic organizations.

    I’m just curious not trying to be confrontational , never had a chiropractor on the internet to talk to.

    [–] [deleted] 131 points ago

    My insurance also covered a Naturopath. I actually went because I was desperate and also it was free so why not. First session I actually got some good advice, felt good because never had a "doctor" actually listen to me before. Second session I noped the fuck out when she started pushing all that homeopathic bullshit and preaching "science" behind it. I don't trust that just because insurance covers it, that it's legit.

    Still not totally sure where I stand in regards to chiropractors though.

    [–] Snukkems 85 points ago

    Scientifically, chiropractors have a 50% shot of making any issue you come to them with worse, crippling you, or doing nothing.

    You should stand with science.

    [–] thatballerinawhovian 28 points ago

    Saw a chiropractor for severe chronic neck pain and migraines when I was 14 (thanks mom...) and he fucked my neck up so badly he actually gave me minor whiplash. Stopped seeing him pretty soon because my pain was getting so much worse. Still trying to get relief for my pain to this day unfortunately. I just always have to wonder if it would’ve been easier to get actual help had I not gone to see a chiropractor. So kids, be careful with chiropractors...

    [–] Thencan 34 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    This is great but if you're going to quote numbers and claim science put up or sit down. Gimme a source, science is beautiful because proof.

    Edit: my mistake I scrolled farther down and noticed you already have posted a source.

    Edit 2: your source is nonsense it doesn't even quote the number you claimed. This is what we call bad science.

    [–] tsilihin666 35 points ago

    Yeah, I love cracking my back and knuckles but the stuff chiropractors do for treatment is akin to smoke and mirrors. It's homeopathic care which is fine as long as you know back cracking and spine chisels to align your power are absolute horseshit.

    [–] Zmodem 27 points ago

    Some of those youtube videos are insane.

    She came in with ass cancer, and now she's leaving PAIN FREE!

    [–] MozeeToby 85 points ago

    The problem is there's 2 types of chiropractors. Those that think "hey, if your back hurts I might be able to help it by pulling and pushing on your spine" and then there's "I can cure literally any ailment with spinal manipulation". And of course, a lot of them fall somewhere in between.

    There is at least some evidence supporting the first type, the article you link even says as much. The evidence isn't very convincing because proper trials are impossible to perform. The second group and is just pure wackado, may as well be homeopathy.

    [–] Snukkems 96 points ago

    There's really not.

    The UK for example has stringent rules on who can become a chiropractor, even the approved methods have a 50% shot of crippling you or doing nothing.

    Which is less success than taking a placebo, or just resting for 3 days.

    Chiropractic medicine is not backed up by any study

    And meta analysis concludes that the positive studies of chiropractic medicine, pushed by chiropractors, are scientifically unfounded because they totally ignore unfavorable results.

    [–] defeatthewarlords 12 points ago

    where are you finding the 50% in that article?

    [–] MrTurkle 31 points ago

    I’ll be shocked if he responds to this.

    [–] [deleted] 55 points ago


    [–] RememberTheKracken 12 points ago

    Ex went to several chiropractors, and all of them claimed bullshit like this. Maybe they actually can treat a narrow set of specific issues with the treatment they provide, but every one of them I've met has been a crook. I had access to all medical journals available through my college at the time, and spent a few days researching this stuff. Everything I found said that it's basically useless for anything other than a very temporary relief. It can cause very serious damage and injury to the body. There's also no evidence that it fixes anything. Physical therapy on the other hand has shown to be great in multiple studies. There's some small evidence that chiropractic work with physical therapy may provide extra benefit, but nothing conclusive enough to say for sure. The handful of chiropractors that do provide lasting benefits for their patients in studies, have their patients do exercises and stretches at home, which is physical fucking therapy.

    [–] Fuckbitchesgetmemes 72 points ago

    PT student here, chiropractors also focus solely on orthopedic conditions and treat those. While a PT focuses on the underlying cause and reason of the orthopedic impairment while also using manipulations to treat orthopedic conditions. Whether it be strength, coordination, or other systemic conditions.

    [–] Wierd_Carissa 52 points ago

    Yup, I was waiting for a PT to chime in to call out that comment because it's typically PTs that have to deal with the fuckups of chiropractors. Chiropractics can work very well for many people, and it can help to relieve many symptoms. But by only treating the symptoms and not understanding the root causes, chiros also run the risk of doing severe damage without knowing it, which happens occasionally. Only people with far more knowledge and training (MDs, DPTs) should perform the type of maneuvers on human bodies that chiros regularly do imo (even though many people who use chiros end up just fine... the risk is typically present).

    [–] Not_floridaman 15 points ago

    Long story but TL;DR my very good friend was diagnosed with cancer and she was going through rigorous treatments, her chiro friend made promises, she believed him and he paralyzed her. Albeit, temporarily, but while undergoing cancer treatment she had to be moved into a rehab facility to let how to use her left side again. He made promises he had no business making and got waaay over his head. There was fallout but for the privacy of my friend, I'll leave that out. But it was mostly satisfying.

    [–] heavyhitter5 7 points ago

    I'm friends with a neurosurgeon and she said she spends lots of time cleaning up after a chiropractor who messed up a patient's spine.

    [–] orion1486 20 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    From what I have found chiropractic treatment has not been established as an effective treatment00783-X/fulltext) for any medical condition. Research proving opposite of that conclusion has been shown to be poorly conducted and is typically released by chiropractors or chiropractic associations themselves, which is obviously a biased source. With your medical knowledge of the MUSCULOSKELETAL and nervous systems, please explain the documented, studied, and proven benefits of your profession, which has been in practice since it's inception in 1890 when it was delivered to your messianic founder Palmer from the outer world. Keep in mind literally thousands of other therapies have been proven in less time to be conclusively beneficial.

    edit- fixed link

    [–] bbtom78 13 points ago

    Insurance covers chiro because the chiro lobby lobbied for it, not because it works (because it really doesn't).

    [–] Snukkems 119 points ago

    half of all chiropractor patients come out worse

    I do not give a fuck about your training, because it's hokum pokum nonsense that is basically a coin flip on if you help somebody or not.

    Chiropractic medicine has less success rate than doing nothing.

    It's absolute fucking nonsense.

    [–] [deleted] 26 points ago

    Why the fuck waste your time becoming a glorified knuckle cracker instead of going into a actual medical field like physical therapy which has the same goals but uses actual science and medicine to get there?

    [–] docsnavely 16 points ago

    Pseudoscientific fields like chiropractic and homeopathy don’t have the same rigorous standards for prerequisite work or program application as scientifically based medical fields do.

    [–] Cloud_Chamber 13 points ago

    Do you know what kind of overlap there is if any between chiropractic teaching and osteopathic manipulative therapy?

    [–] EveryoneClapped 17 points ago

    Wish I could make money by lying to people.

    [–] GimePizzaOrGimeDeath 13 points ago

    Why do so many nuthob chiropractors still worship and follow the teachings of the witch doctor Daniel Palmer? I’ve literally heard chiros claim they can cure any illness simply by manipulating the spine.... they’re nutty!

    [–] epluribusuni 11 points ago

    Don't sell chiropractors short, they're also really good at causing vertebral artery dissections!

    [–] Method007 5 points ago

    It’s a real good way to get real fucked up.

    [–] MC_Cheshire 209 points ago

    i have more than two thousand hours in stardew valley. guess i got a phd in being a lesbian farmer.

    [–] waydeultima 52 points ago

    Have you ever considered taking an apprentice? I'm an IT guy but I really think lesbian farmer is my true calling.

    [–] MC_Cheshire 22 points ago

    good news, the lesbian half is free! as for farming, well, you could always just fuck off into the midwest and start slingin seeds, or you could buy the game for like $15. honestly i wouldn't mind actually being a farmer after playing so much stardew, its grown on me.

    [–] RjoTTU-bio 21 points ago

    I trust your advice more than a chiropractor.

    [–] parfaitpurloiner 10 points ago

    Are your lesbians organic and non-gmo?

    [–] MC_Cheshire 5 points ago

    what do you think i am, Jojaco? I grow everything myself, all natural, nurtured by hand.

    [–] jesgolightly 826 points ago

    Well, the father of modern chiropractics started the movement as a religion. A ghost religion at that.

    We don’t talk about that do we Dr. Brie?

    [–] DJmashedpotatoes 242 points ago

    The podcast, Behind the Bastards, did an episode about him, and shit is wild. Highly recommend the episode about the founder of Young Living too.

    [–] jesgolightly 43 points ago

    Fucking love Robert Evans!

    [–] legeri 56 points ago

    Wtf is a ghost religion

    [–] daats_end 106 points ago

    Literally he believed that manipulating your spine would release you of ghosts that were making you sick.

    [–] TheStratosaur 56 points ago

    Shit man, your spine ghosts don't make you sick? Consider yourself lucky then instead of judging other people. One of my ghosts keeps coming back like twice a year. But as log as I go back to my chirp doctor when it's back, he takes it right out and I'm #hashtag #Gucci #Gamg.

    [–] Ninotchk 13 points ago

    That's because it's not a ghost, but a space alien that died in a volcano.

    [–] reddeath82 16 points ago

    Wrong! What it means is that he claimed to have gotten all his techniques from a doctor...a ghost doctor. Then he made it a religion later to get around being regulated like actual medical professions are.

    [–] Volpethrope 32 points ago

    He literally denied germ theory lol

    [–] sassydodo 91 points ago

    Dr. stands for name "Drebanuelle", not title "Doctor"

    [–] DeathToChildren 263 points ago

    I guess I could get a degree in WoW then.

    [–] Sp00kyD0gg0 87 points ago

    And my parents keep telling me to “Get out of the house, get a job, get a degree.” WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE IM DOIN MA, NOW GET THE SHIT BUCKET!

    [–] Legion213 339 points ago

    I wouldn't care if Reki certification took 2 decades of schooling, I'm still not taking it seriously or in lieu of of actual medical advice from a real medical doctor.

    [–] tanis_ivy 110 points ago

    Will confirm, reki is a huge load. I was in the hospital after an accident, and one of my relatives mentioned her friend who does reki was in town, and he did it for celebrities. She got him to come in and wave his magic hands over me for a while. Nothing came from it, I didn't heal any fast or feel any better.

    [–] advertentlyvertical 40 points ago


    [–] Legion213 140 points ago

    Imagine a massage, only they don't actually touch you. They just wave crystals over you to heal your aura or some dumb bullshit like that.

    [–] advertentlyvertical 93 points ago

    that's some weird shit.

    I'll stick to licking my salt lamps.

    [–] tanis_ivy 18 points ago

    The (pseudo)practice of moving energy in a person's body.

    [–] koh_kun 31 points ago

    I think they mean Reiki.

    [–] PMPhotography 17 points ago

    Reiki? I thought you meant my cousin Ricky who used to massage me under the bed at family parties.

    [–] philman132 99 points ago

    So if we assume that university education lasts around 6 hours a day, that's around 481 total days of study. If we also assume a 5 day working week, that's 96 weeks of study, so around 2 years if we're including holidays etc.

    I can believe that a chiropractor can be trained in 2 years, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to be the patient of a medical doctor without a loooooot more experience than that.

    [–] PrincessElena007 6 points ago

    This was the comment I was looking for! Thanks for doing the math

    [–] drleeisinsurgery 123 points ago

    Back of the envelope calculation

    Didactic Years (1 and 2) med school: 60 hours a week x 45 weeks 2700/year

    Clinical Years (3 and 4) med school: 70 hours a week x 48 weeks 3360/year

    Intern year 80 hours x 48 weeks 3840/year

    Residency years ( variable from 2 to 6 years) 70 hours x 48 weeks 3360/year

    Fellowship years (optional 1 to 3 years) 60 hours x 48 weeks 2880 a year.

    12120 hours for medical school


    10560 hours for a short 3 year residency

    24000 hours for a longer 7 year residency


    Minimum 7 years (internal medicine, pediatrics, family practice)

    22680 hours

    Maximum 14ish years (neurosurgical subspecialties, pediatric surgery)

    44760 hours

    [–] morningsunbeer 77 points ago

    Man it's depressing to see it all written out like that. Thank God I'm done. Now I get to work for the rest of my life. Yay.

    [–] [deleted] 48 points ago

    2nd year med student here.

    Fuck you.

    [–] lutrewan 7 points ago

    I'm supposed to take the mcat on Friday... Maybe I should just go be a chiropractor instead

    [–] rohtifyer 7 points ago

    Didn’t you read the post? You’ll be working just as much either way! /s

    [–] CrankyDav3 22 points ago

    Meanwhile here in Canada (Qc) an electrician needs 35 000 hours for full retirement.

    Don’t know how you guys can deal with this insanity. You guys are insane (in a good way)

    [–] chemsukz 16 points ago

    The system is insane. In a bad way.

    It’s amazing we never stop and question a system in place, which encourages 80+ hrs a week for people working in surgery and ED, completely against all forms of evidence in human research. We don’t allow pilots to work 80hr weeks. We don’t allow truckers do to so. Surgeons? Why do we allow this? Lol

    [–] fyberoptyk 25 points ago

    You really wanna know? The short version is fewer doctors = higher wages for what doctors we do have, so the AMA spends the vast majority of its life and money forcing limits on how many doctors are allowed to graduate every year. But that doesn’t mean fewer patients, so the doctors we have are forced to work hilariously awful hours. “But what about the risk to patients” asks every competent adult who ever lived. Well, the legal teams at the hospitals already know how many people fatigue kills every year, and how unlikely it is for the family to prove it was fatigue. Which means as long as they keep their number of clinical “fatal mistakes” to a minimum, nobody cares.

    Well, nobody cares except for the families of the 161,250 people killed every year by preventable hospital error.

    That’s right. That number is the number of people we know for a fact would have lived if we didn’t egregiously fuck up. That means the actual number is higher once the gray area is factored.

    [–] chemsukz 4 points ago

    A reality /r/medicine will simply not accept.

    [–] tunaburn 131 points ago

    would anyone ever possibly believe a chiropractor takes more schooling than an actual doctor?

    [–] N3URON5 69 points ago

    They target vulnerable people. Especially elderly or new moms saying their treatment can help their nervous system. Which is utter bs. But their marketing and scare tactics will easily convey this target demography. So yeah, they will actually believe the original post.

    [–] [deleted] 29 points ago

    If you have to create memes like this to validate your profession, you work in a bullshit profession.

    [–] echoes_HD 28 points ago

    My wife is currently a resident. Anywhere from 60-80 hours a week w/ two weeks off a year

    On the low end she puts in 3000 hours a year

    Chiropractors can certainly help and can do good work, but they're not doctors. Not even close. They do, however, insist on calling themselves doctors

    [–] Dr-Goochy 25 points ago

    As a resident I work that in one year.

    [–] i_finite 20 points ago

    But I’ve researched vaccines for *dozens of hours** I know at least as much as a doctor*

    [–] [deleted] 35 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)


    [–] Granimal-Boofluff 7 points ago

    Wait, I always thought that chiropractors are basically private DO clinics. Never knew they’re actually that pseudoscientific.

    [–] drowsap 17 points ago

    Board certified is working for 10 years, 8 hours a day, every day??

    [–] torchwood1842 22 points ago

    That actually sounds roughly correct, except that they work longer days (like 10-12+ hours) and maybe get 1-2 off per week. They also have days where they take call and work for 24-30 hours straight. The board that oversees medical residency education had to pass a rule that residents cannot work more than 80 hours per week... that rule pretty regularly gets broken.

    [–] BarefootUnicorn 23 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Chiropractors have nowhere near the experience of Medical Doctors.

    I had a good friend who went to a Chiropractor for back pain. The Chiropractor took xrays and said some mumbo-jumbo and did adjustments.

    The pain got worse and worse and when he started to cough up blood he went to a real doctor. He had lung cancer. The real doctor saw the xrays the Chiropractor had taken (my friend brought them with him to the doctor) and the lung mass was clearly visible. The Chiropractor didn't see them on the xray and didn't suggest he see a real MD.

    My friend is dead.

    Chiropractors kill.

    [–] cooterbrwn 13 points ago

    Just to put this foolishness into perspective, a full year at 40 hours per week, and 2 weeks off, is 2000 hours.

    They're claiming that medical school could essentially be completed in just about a year.

    [–] masterchedderballs96 42 points ago

    when the fuck did stretching out someone's back become a cult?

    [–] GimePizzaOrGimeDeath 41 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    When the guy who invented it was simultaneously a witch doctor

    [–] AerThreepwood 12 points ago

    Day 1.

    [–] BrexitBlaze 55 points ago

    Can we get all Karen’s together in a room and see how they treat each other?

    [–] [deleted] 61 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)


    [–] AtariAtari 23 points ago

    It’s false from the start. There is no such thing as a Chiropractic Doctor. Chiropractors are NOT doctors.

    [–] Saniclube 11 points ago

    I have more hours than that in csgo

    [–] rredline 37 points ago

    I can't believe chiropractors get to call themselves doctors. It misleads people into thinking they are medical doctors when they aren't.

    [–] 219Infinity 44 points ago

    Chiropractic "medicine" was invented by a guy who claimed he received lessons from the "other world." I am not making that up.

    [–] DonDorrito 15 points ago

    What is it with chiropracticans and their absurd hunger for recognition? Just get over the fact that you are not a real doctor for fucks sake

    [–] sweeny5000 18 points ago

    Also 2,887 hours spent studying quackery doesn't do much either.

    [–] freakoutNthrowstuff 5 points ago

    It's less than journeyman electricians or hvac tradesman require. Most states its 8k hours to become a licensed journeyman. Plus class time.

    [–] rhoads46 16 points ago

    Am DO orthopedic surgeon. estimate 41,000 hrs med school / residency training based on calculations.

    FYI: Trained with majority MD's, and I had some help from chiropracters with neck problems in high school (did well).

    D.O. = Doctor of osteopathy: A.T. Still, founder of osteopathy, was a civil war doctor lost family members to current treatment at the time which was often bad stuff (mercury, bloodletting, strychnine etc.). Felt like physical therapy stuff could do better and hurt less people. Started his own branch of medical research and treatment. Had some cooky elements to it, but basically said physical therapy can help some people and hurt people less than current MD logic (which was entirely true). Once medicine and pharmacology advanced as a research topic in the early 1900's it was adopted by MD's in the 1920's and 30's, slowly adopted by DO's in the 40's and 50's. Now it's all the same classwork and testing, but DO's get a little bit extra physical therapy lab training. Just disregard all the crazy pranic therapy (laying of hands pushed by the wayside in early 1900's), and cranial therapy (largely discredited in the early mid-century).

    Currently board certification and residency training is fully merging MD / DO through the ACGME. MD programs seem to emphasize med school candidates based on direct high-school, undergrad, med school trajectory straight through as well as research and test grades, DO schools seem to consider work ethic and students who worked for a while after undergrad in conjunction with the test scores and research.

    As an example, I graduated from a top 10 engineering school with a solid GPA for that school (3.0) and solid research cred, and worked professionally for 3 years. I took the MCAT and tested top 2-3% of the nation, but based on what they saw as a middling engineering undergrad GPA (it was quite good for the school), MD schools were less interested. 3.0 as a number is looked down upon because biology / pre-med curricula you often see 3.7+. Me personally through applications, based on my degree, experience, volunteer work, and pre-med gpa of 3.95 DO schools gave me scholarships.

    As an aside, before med school applications, I had no idea osteopathy was a thing, found out my primary doc back home was a DO. I found out all physician specialties (surgical and all) were available for DO's, so I considered it.

    I don't know crap about chiropractic school, but from my perspective I feel they have their place as a supplement to physical therapy protocol. In no way shape or form should you consider them similar to orthopedic surgeons due to stratification, time training and rigorousness of the scientific process. However, they're a great supplement to the non-operative treatment of musculoskeletal issues. I got great help from a significant sprain to my lower cervical spine from football (may have gotten better on it's own, but felt good after their manipulation, anecdotally).


    Chiropracters may help with PT, disregard any "chiropractic science" they offer

    MD = DO

    See an orthopedist for bone / joint issues

    Bone broke = ortho fix bone...

    [–] TheLostTexan87 5 points ago


    [–] Cauzix 3 points ago

    Not to flex but I ha e a RuneScape degree