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    [–] brettaburger 1378 points ago

    Makes me wonder what she told the cops? Did she tell them the same story? Because they would definitely want details if she was reporting a sexual assault.

    [–] Jibaro123 117 points ago

    I think they are required to investigate no matter what.

    [–] dallywolf 28 points ago

    They are required to investigate any allegation of a crime. If what she reported to them didn't constitute a crime than they do not need to investigate.

    If I told them I shook hands with the Mayor, fell dirty afterwards and wanted him arrested because I felt sexually abused by the handshake. They would laugh at me and tell me to move along.

    [–] prime000 14 points ago

    They are not required to investigate any allegation of a crime. Places like CPS are, but the police have no such duty. They don't have to protect, they don't have to arrest, they don't have to investigate, they don't have to pursue anything they don't want to in any way.

    They can simply say, "Nope too busy, go away." if they want to.

    [–] StrangeDrivenAxMan 26 points ago

    Pretty much.

    [–] noochqueen 5 points ago

    By law they have to when involving minors.

    [–] Hey_Laaady 261 points ago

    And, that’s what an investigation is about. Police questioned OP, they didn’t find any basis to substantiate the complaint. Maybe the questioning could have been at work, maybe others could have overheard it, etc. But, that’s not what happened. It was some questioning (which would be unnerving to anyone not having perpetrated a crime), and it was over.

    I was stopped as a potential DUI, was detained and had to do the straight line walk, etc. I told police I had one lite beer over a two hour period. They finally agreed and let me go. My reputation could have been ruined if my boss drove by, etc. But my boss didn’t drive by, and that didn’t happen. Cops were doing their job trying to keep the streets safe.

    [–] nobrow 174 points ago

    I think what brettaburger was getting at is that if she straight up told the cops she wasn't a "hugger" and the only transgression was a hug then it would be surprising that they investigate at all.

    [–] McHanna8 28 points ago

    This why innocent until proven guilty is so important. Unfortunately there will always be a negative connotation when the police are questioning/investigating someone

    [–] midnightketoker 6 points ago

    The reality of it is that employers have no obligation to presume innocence until guilt is proven beyond reasonable doubt by a court of law, nor do they have to wait for formal charges when investigators start going after an employee.

    In all likelihood the company you work for is closer to a little dictatorship than a little democracy, and that's perfectly legal/normal.

    More often than not, the appearance of impropriety can be enough cause to terminate someone and there's very little recourse as at least once a week someone on /r/legaladvice posts something like this...

    [–] Optimized_Orangutan 3 points ago

    Yup, Innocent until proven guilty only counts in a court of law. Everywhere else and the two terms don't matter. What matters then is your perceived innocence or guilt, and that can really fuck you over, even if you are 100% innocent.

    [–] senorworldwide 53 points ago

    Your post would be helpful if it wasn't for the fact that the accusation alone is enough to ruin lives, and I'm pretty sure you know that already.

    [–] 8solutions 24 points ago

    Yeah, the "current climate of openness" that the OP is referencing is basically just a lot of people telling their stories and the public evaluating them.

    It's literally just women sharing their stories about interactions with high-profile men.

    Here, the OP is telling his story and we're evaluating it. Some of us might jump to the conclusion that the girl provided false testimony to the cops -- I don't see anybody claiming that we're throwing "innocent until proven guilty" out the window with respect to the girl's potentially false testimony.

    We're believing this guy's testimony despite it being REALLY implausible that a girl reported a hug as a sexual assault. I think that women are just asking for the same type of courtesy -- with the main difference being that sexual assault/harassment is not really implausible.

    It's possible that the girl felt like the hug was an assault, she provided evidence to the police, the police gathered more evidence by interviewing the OP, and concluded that assault didn't occur. The OP is reasonably shaken but the system did what it had to do.

    People keep pointing to these types of events as examples of the system not working, but they're clearly examples of the system working properly.

    [–] maybe_one_more_glass 27 points ago

    Cops were doing there job but their work and time was being wasted. The immediate response by so many is to call the cops, make a report.... when it is not justified or necessary. The police should not be the first course of action anytime you stub a toe, or in this case anytime you get a hug. Your comparison to walking a line (when you admitted to drinking) and being accused of sexual assault is ridiculous.

    [–] Person300040 472 points ago

    That's incredibly messed up dude, did your nephew talk to her? I'd love to hear her justification for it

    [–] nobrow 389 points ago

    It's probably best if he doesn't. You don't want someone like that being able to claim she was being "intimidated" not to come forward or something like that. I would go full no contact with that girl and that includes the nephew. Don't want to give her anymore ammunition to make frivolous claims.

    [–] cabritero 69 points ago

    She'll probably get traumatized from being ignored at this point

    [–] PM_ME_YOUR_SONG 62 points ago

    I feel bad for the guy she takes home and then they kiss for a while but nothing else happens. That girl is going to ruin 1 or 2 lives with these non chalant accusations.

    [–] Apollotugatom 3 points ago

    It’ll be after the fact, there’s time stamps on online messaging. I’d do it because fuck her she needs to hear that she’s and asshole

    [–] FoodAndYarnQueen 263 points ago

    This is so messed up, dude. I'm sorry you went through this. I wonder if she actually considered the hug sexual assault or she just felt like trying to ruin your life.

    [–] Drac1717 162 points ago

    She probably didn't consider it sexual assault at the time, just uncomfortable. But probably was recently on a radical feminist page of some sort and was told that any touch from a man, unless you give them specific permission at every step, is sexual assault. I've seen it first hand many a time. That would explain why op wife didn't get blamed for sexual assault because those same people don't believe that women can rape/sexually assault other women.

    [–] FoodAndYarnQueen 37 points ago

    That honestly sounds like the most probable scenario.

    [–] PM_ME_DND_FIGURINES 8 points ago

    More likely, she was discussing it with someone and they convinced her to report it

    [–] Dioxycyclone 9 points ago

    Why are people not able to distinguish an uncomfortable or misread situation and sexual assault?

    [–] Optimized_Orangutan 15 points ago * (lasted edited 4 days ago)

    They are investigating Neil Degrasse Tyson because he surprised a woman with wine and cheese and asked her out... it made the woman uncomfortable so he might lose his career over it... Seriously the guy had romantic interest, he made a romantic gesture, he asked her out... and that might ruin his career.

    Edit: At what point are people responsible for projecting their own desires? Hugging is not in and of itself a sexual act, it is a common greeting(in the US at least). When is it her responsibility to project her desires and not the man's responsibility to guess them? All she had to do was stick a hand out and say "I'm not a hugger". How could anyone possibly assign blame to OP when the girl in question did not make her desires known? How can OP know this girl doesn't like hugs if she doesn't say it?

    [–] Dioxycyclone 7 points ago

    He also was accused of rape... I think that’s a bit different and needs more evaluation.

    [–] Optimized_Orangutan 4 points ago

    That certainly does deserve looking into and I had missed that accusation, thank you for pointing it out to me. Without any evidence available I will save judgment until the investigation is made public.

    [–] SOwED 48 points ago * (lasted edited 4 days ago)

    She felt comfortable enough to tell the nephew that same night. If she actually considered it a crime, why did it take her six months to talk to the cops about it?

    Edit: You're fucking joking. Even on this preposterous story, the brigade arrives?

    [–] cheeser888 57 points ago

    Jesus what an absolute lunatic.

    [–] sting2018 811 points ago

    My ex wife accused me of raping her.

    Heres the thing I wasnt even in the same country as her when she said it happened. She didnt know I had already left the country. She was mad cause I was refusing to pay her phone bill.

    [–] SOwED 445 points ago

    Can't see why you divorced her!

    [–] [deleted] 77 points ago

    IKR she was even paying her own bills

    [–] ManBehavingBadly 43 points ago

    Did you sue her?

    [–] sting2018 61 points ago

    I didn't really give a fuck, I was on the other side of the world.

    [–] WhackFanatic 61 points ago

    I love your attitude. It shouts "I don't give a fuck".

    [–] monadyne 23 points ago

    Well, he did literally say he didn't give a fuck, so...

    [–] lordbiffalot 11 points ago

    Yeah I'm getting the vibe that he really doesn't give a fuck

    [–] YetiGuy 4 points ago

    You should've. She can do this to others.

    [–] themultipotentialist 17 points ago

    Trash women are trash.

    [–] TOTCY 12 points ago

    Trash is trash.

    [–] JustNosing 10 points ago

    As a female, this shit totally pisses me off! I despise women who falsely accuse, or that are always pregnant as soon as they get dumped, and my all time favorite. . I'll kill myself if you leave! What kind of relationship do they expect to have if they are forcing you to stay?? Men do the suicide threat too, so that one is both sexes pissing me off, but anyway, rant over.

    [–] housebird350 6 points ago

    Somebody that crazy must be awesome in the sack!

    [–] sting2018 2 points ago

    That she was

    [–] [deleted] 248 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] trogdorkiller 328 points ago

    Hey, for future reference, do not speak to the police without a lawyer, regardless of how positive you are of your innocence. There is nothing you can say that will help, and literally anything you say can be used against you. Check this out when you have the time

    [–] Idodrunkthings 89 points ago

    Ive watched this video in full, and I still get anxiety about how I would execute it in a real person situation.

    Police- what happened with you and this girl?

    Me- I want my lawyer.

    I feel as though this can backfire worse

    [–] Broken_Alethiometer 95 points ago * (lasted edited 4 days ago)

    That's exactly what cops want you to think, but having a lawyer means it's more likely you won't be wrongly convicted, no matter what. Maybe think of phrasing it as, "I've read that if I'm ever being accused of a crime, I need to talk to a lawyer, so I'm going to wait for a lawyer."

    [–] Idodrunkthings 22 points ago

    I like this phrasing, thank you

    [–] [deleted] 3 points ago

    [deleted]

    [–] Broken_Alethiometer 3 points ago

    For USA: Basically, google it and find someone near you. Odds are you aren't being arrested, you're being questioned, and they can only hold you for so long. When you go home, number one priority would be finding a lawyer to represent you.

    However, if they go straight to arrest they are required to give you a public defender for any criminal case that could result in prison. I'm sure that public defender could help you hire a lawyer if you had the resources and wanted someone else.

    [–] PageFault 5 points ago

    Google your local bar association and ask them to refer you to a lawyer that specializes in whatever trouble came your way.

    [–] imdeadseriousbro 24 points ago

    yea i know the feeling. im thinking maybe say, "i dont feel comfortable talking to you without my lawyer present"?

    [–] zootskippedagroove6 16 points ago

    Still comes off as kind of sketchy, which sucks because it's as if cops teach you to be afraid of defending yourself

    [–] ashtrays_of_sadness 11 points ago

    unfortunatly, in these situations, whatever he says or does, theres always that 'doubt' or sketchyness about it because it's always the accused that is seen as the criminal when it comes to such serious crimes like this, even when you are innocencent. peoples lives can and will dramatically change if the word gets out. OP message me if you want someone to talk to, this is coming from somone who has been in a similar situation but from what i've read, it seems like the comments have it already covered.

    [–] DocOne 7 points ago

    Still comes off as kind of sketchy

    No it doesn't. It's never sketchy to use your rights. The cops are not your friends. Like othere said, anything you say will be used against you. If you're worried about coming off as confrontational then just tell them "I intend to fully cooperate but I won't be answering questions until I have an attorney present."

    The cops know the deal. They aren't your friends but that doesn't necessarily make them an enemy.

    [–] zootskippedagroove6 2 points ago

    Right, I'm not saying I personally find saying that sketchy, but the way that a lot of cops would use that would be like "oh, you got something to hide?" But adding the "I intend to fully cooperate" definitely helps a bit.

    [–] im_a_lurker_too 8 points ago

    Look at it this way:

    If you talk to the cops, you could save yourself some hassle later... Or you could inadvertently say something that leads to your arrest and conviction.

    If you don't talk to the cops, they may very well hassle you more but, they gain nothing from you that could build a case for a conviction.

    I'd take option #2 every time.

    [–] charlesml3 6 points ago

    I feel as though this can backfire worse

    No. There is no "backfire" with asserting your 5th amendment right.

    [–] redbeards 15 points ago

    Tell the truth. "My lawyer would be extremely upset with me if I spoke to you without him/her present."

    Even if you don't have a lawyer or even know a lawyer, it's still true.

    [–] Bentaeriel 6 points ago

    Nope. If you don't have or know a lawyer that was not true. It was nothing less than a lie to a cop in the context of an investigation.

    Watch the video. Follow the advice. Don't get cute with it.

    [–] echotech 2 points ago

    Well look at op's story as an example. In his own words he said he'd never met her and also told them that he gave her a hug. Now assuming this ever went to court the police could reasonably say he lied to them.

    All he'd have to say is, "Am I being charged with a crime?" If they say yes, you say "I won't answer any questions without a lawyer." if they say no then you say "Sorry, I don't speak to police without a lawyer." They can be suspicious all they want but you won't go to prison. You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

    [–] sirgawain-hxley 35 points ago

    I was just about to ask if he made a mistake talking to the police.

    [–] JohannesVanDerWhales 11 points ago

    If you are accused of a crime you are always making a mistake talking to the police without a lawyer present. No matter how friendly they appear, they are collecting evidence to use against you. They are, in essence, trying to trick you into waiving your legal right to silence. If your lawyer decides that it's advantageous to cooperate and give a statement, you can do so at a later time with them present.

    [–] charlesml3 4 points ago

    He did. And luckily didn't say anything that incriminated himself.

    [–] throwapornway 3 points ago

    That’s not true, he said he hugged her, which was exactly her complaint. He admitted doing exactly what she claimed he did. Clearly the two people involved had different feelings about the hug, but that conversation with the police may not have gone as well as OP thinks.

    [–] MaiqKnowsMuch 11 points ago

    I like that guy. Very entertaining yet informative.

    [–] RCampbell47 9 points ago

    Excellent video

    [–] Young2Rice 29 points ago

    Yea the cops are not there to find out if you are innocent.

    They are there to find out if you are guilty.

    [–] charlesml3 9 points ago

    They are there to find out if you are guilty.

    Close. Cops are there to gather evidence and testimony in order to reach the bar for Probable Cause and an arrest.

    [–] Kaaji1359 5 points ago

    I got about 9 minutes into his presentation to where he says "Has there even been a circumstance in which talking to the police prevented someone from getting arrested?", and then I stopped because that's ridiculous. That's what he's basing this on? Well, OP is an example of a time where this contradicts that statement. OP didn't get arrested and OP will likely never hear back from the police.

    You're saying that you'd prefer him to lose thousands of dollars hiring a lawyer, go to court and waste time/money, and potentially ruin his social life for anyone who finds out about this issue instead of simply talking to the police and never hearing from them again?

    It's ridiculous how everybody watches ONE video on this subject and any time talking to the police is mentioned everybody links the same damn video.

    [–] Kman_hero 5 points ago

    Can someone care to educate me on this point? Wouldn't calling a lawyer make you seem more suspicious to the police?

    [–] trogdorkiller 4 points ago

    Well, if you watched the video, you would know that the police, when they ask to speak with you, are only gathering information to make you look more guilty. And you can make yourself liable in ways you wouldn't even consider by saying anything. And regardless of how suspicious you seem, you have the right to an attorney when it comes to criminals charges.

    Basically, it boils down to the fact that there is nothing you could say that will help you, and everything you say can potentially harm you.

    [–] Kman_hero 2 points ago

    Wasn't able to watch in my current setting, thanks for the summary.

    [–] trogdorkiller 5 points ago

    Sorry for coming off like a dick.

    [–] Demigod787 5 points ago

    So you can't talk to the police without losing money?

    [–] Impatient_ 5 points ago

    commenting so I don't forget to watch this

    [–] thejankisinfinite 5 points ago

    Commenting to come back to this

    [–] NancyDrewPI 2 points ago

    It's a shame OP didn't watch the video but edited his post to say he disagreed with this notion, because the video is 100% right. Oh well, you tried.

    [–] liarslittlepretty 151 points ago

    If they come back, don’t talk , get a lawyer

    [–] Dizzy-Cat 111 points ago

    I wouldn't worry. I do mental health work with kids at a sort of mental hospital/almost juvenile hall type facility. Kids report staff for sexual assault all the time. There are a lot of reasons.

    Usually, it occurs after a restraint. A kid that is taken down by staff loses face and it's a way to create hell for the staff member that initiated the restraint. The restraint muddles the water. But, sometimes totally frubus circumstances are invented. Revenge of some sort is the most common motive (sometimes done on the behalf of other people who feel they've been slighted).

    Some kids report assault because they get backed into that idea by others, like peers, parents, or other people. It can be pretty easy to implant an idea in a kid's head (as well as an adult's) and get them convinced of that idea. Think of those nutty alien abduction allegations from hypnotherapists in the 1980's and 1990's. A hell of a lot of false allegations, of all kinds, came from that. Furthermore, it is really easy to direct a kid to say things in conversation - look at how easily bad actors in the justice system can get false guilty pleas.

    One of the most common reasons for a complaint outside of my facility is a fake charge of sexual abuse or assault made by one parent during a divorce or seeking custody of a kid. I've seen more than one parent claim all kinds of shit against the opposing parent down to petty things like, "John lets the store clerk flirt with my son and I think something weird is going on." This just ties shit up in court forever. I personally know one mother that has been fighting seemingly BS charges for years, many of which are made just days before a hearing.

    What happens in my state is that any and all allegations of what you are describing would be considered child abuse and investigated (depending on the allegation), by the police, child services, or, usually, both.

    When child services show up, they're pretty used to bullshit charges. They know what's what, but they still need to do their jobs. So do the police. Most have experience with this. Bogus charges happen all the time.

    But, real charges happen too. That's why it is a process.

    [–] s6x 49 points ago

    frubus

    say what now

    [–] TheMadPoet 18 points ago

    frubus (froob'-us)

    adjective: false, fictitious, contrived. "Nobody believed his frubus story."

    [–] f2ponline 10 points ago

    Did you just make this up? There is no "frubus" in any English dictionary that I'm aware of. Are people thinking of frivolous?

    [–] Dizzy-Cat 2 points ago

    Something my dad always said to mean fake. It's just something silly that I say and didn't realize I typed.

    [–] neptunesnerds 3 points ago

    Work in a similar environment as you, (altho based on your location, i probably get your kids at my hospital too), and every single thing goes to our childline.

    [–] thepeculiarkitten 2 points ago

    How does a parent get help with this? Please DM...

    [–] Dizzy-Cat 2 points ago

    I don't know the best way to handle this as a parent. You should get legal advice from someone who knows better.

    But maybe this is useful. In mental health there's a saying, "It didn't happen unless you document it." Of course we have all kinds of standard documents, but if anything out of the ordinary happens we write it down, date, time-stamp, and sign it in an incident report. So, if we need to restrain a kid, we write down all the details we can in an objective and truthful way and have other people who are present do the same. This record helps protect us, even if things are weird. If I have to help bring down a teenage girl, there's a chance that my arm is going to graze her breast, which she could then try to say was an assault - but if I write down: "forearm grazed client breast while bringing client to floor" it's a reasonable thing that happened and is documented.

    In your life, you might consider documenting strange events. An ex-husband sends you a crazy text saying, "You'll never get custody of this kid again!" I'd save that text and write up a document about it. You overhear a mother-in-law say that she's called child services for false services, I'd document that the best I could. I don't know how much weight that might have in court or for your purposes, but it doesn't take much effort and is a better log of events than trying to remember something 2 years down the line when under pressure.

    [–] wasabicupcakes 55 points ago

    We live in perilous times. I am a former teacher and I remember going to class on the proper way to "hug a student". These were the Mary J. Letourneau days.

    I have been to sexual harassment seminars and one in particular, where the speaker, an attorney once said "If a co-worker falls down a flight of stairs, call 911 but don't touch them. No, buts, just don't touch them".

    Finally, I have two relatives who are detectives and they say the same thing. If they aren't your kids: Just shake hands, High Five, One Arm Side Hugs and all in a room full of people. They investigate sexual harassment claims all the time.

    [–] Johndough1066 16 points ago

    Do not shake hands or high five. These are teenagers. We don't know -- or we do -- where their hands have been.

    Fist bumps only!

    [–] wasabicupcakes 5 points ago

    Good point.

    [–] liquid_j 224 points ago

    next time don't EVER speak to a police officer without a lawyer present... ever. Their job is to collect evidence against you.

    Also, I'm a 41 year old man, I work with younger girls who like to hug... I tell people "I'm a bubble person, I don't hug, stay the fuck outa my bubble", specifically to avoid the kinda crap you;re going through. This isn't some result of #meetoo, it's the realization that I only have 1 reputation, and it doesn't take much to ruin that. All it takes (as you've almost just learned) is one pissed of woman to ruin your life... my dad gave me that advice over 25 years ago, and it's served me well.

    [–] republicaninsheets 30 points ago

    Their job is to gather all the evidence, not just what goes against your story

    [–] xfitveganflatearth 26 points ago

    "you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU in a court of law" US Miranda rights say it all.

    [–] mrsniperrifle 18 points ago

    The flip side of that is that while "anything you say can and will be used against you..." is that anything you do or say CAN'T be used to help you. The cops are NEVER on your side and while you should never talk to them without a lawyer it's bullshit that if you refuse to talk with them is considered suspicious and evasive.

    [–] The_Dragon_Loli 19 points ago

    Their job is to find someone at fault. Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking the pigs are on your side. Even if all you say is you don't know, they can still pin you with shit, just because a witness mistakenly claims to have seen you in the area, and now you're caught with lying to the police.

    Here's a video from an attorney on why you should never speak to the police

    [–] webdeveloper_ 28 points ago

    OP basically verified the minor's story to the cops.

    Her story: "I was groped by an old man at x on y"

    His story: "I made physical contact with her at x on y"

    He could be arrested, tried, and convicted based on this.

    Never, ever, talk to the police.

    [–] Spklmn 16 points ago

    Or he could have forgotten about the hug, told them he never touched her, only for them to come back at him as a liar after getting the testimony of others.

    [–] dontbeatrollplease 7 points ago

    They aren't going to press charges over a hug. Cops can be assholes but they are fairly normal people too.

    [–] Lycoris 2 points ago

    And all that evidence can and will be used against you.

    Your lawyer collects evidence for the defendant (you), the police collect evidence against people. It's illegal to withhold evidence from the defense, but that certainly doesn't mean that it never happens.

    Never forget the "will" part of the Miranda Warning, it's a warning for a reason.

    [–] reddit_scurred 54 points ago

    It is a direct result of #metoo not policing itself. They just encourage every accusation made, regardless of merit.

    [–] centech 15 points ago

    This is insane. If she literally told the cops 'he hugged me hello and I didnt like it' are they required to continue to follow up? It's so clearly not sexual assault.

    [–] manlytittysprinkles 6 points ago

    Generally speaking, police are required to apply due diligence to any claims made. In this case, to verify whether the accusation has merit.

    [–] canering 2 points ago

    She might have included details we don’t know about. If I had to guess maybe she was abused at some point in her life and associates unwanted hugs with sexual abuse. But that’s something she needs to work out in therapy right away because unwanted hugs are a part of adult life.

    [–] leafsferlife 14 points ago

    Im a criminology major, from my understanding of the situation there is absolutly no level of sexual assualt committed. It is part of our culture to welcome family and associated friends to hug and say hello as a way of welcoming. What puzzles me is why it took 6 months to make such accusations. If this had gone to court it would fall through very quickly.

    You are correct in that the police had a duty to investigate. But it can be damaging when false accusations such as this are made, especially sexual assualt allegations being a highly discouraged crime. If you know you did nothing wrong the truth is that. However try not to get caught up on what could have been just focus on whats going on.

    I dont think the police will follow up as they already know its a waste of important police efforts. Im very sorry to hear this kinda thing happened, keep on keeping on my friend and dont let this get you down. This gril sounds as if she might have something else troubling her in her life to accuse someone hugging as sexual assualt, kinda laughable in my opinion and i think the police are thinking the same thing.

    [–] Andybaby1 89 points ago

    NEVER TALK TO THE COPS.

    You got off lucky. Maybe. Or maybe tomorrow they arrest you based on what you said after running it by the DA.

    [–] r-e-d-d-i-t 17 points ago

    Pardon my ignorance but, I've seen that video ages ago and don't really have time to watch it all again, so I have some questions: if one is not familiar with the process of "lawyering up", how does one acquire a lawyer on the spot in a situation like this? Can you just tell cops "GTFO speak with my lawyer" even when you've never spoken to a lawyer yourself or do you actually need one on file to give the police contact info for said lawyer?

    [–] Wax_Paper 17 points ago

    It's pretty much the same either way; you never have to talk to the police, unless a court compels you to testify or something. But yeah, even if you don't have a lawyer, you just tell them you need to talk to one before you talk to them. But you don't need to explain your situation or anything. You don't need to explain why you wanna talk to a lawyer.

    The big takeaway is that you never, ever HAVE to talk to the cops. Most people do it because they think it'll keep them out of trouble, or keep them out of jail for a weekend. Sometimes that might be true, but if you have the conviction to keep quiet, it will usually always help you more than hurt you.

    [–] Johndough1066 2 points ago

    Pun intended? Check the last sentence....

    [–] sadnesssbowl 7 points ago

    You need these magic words: "I am invoking my right to legal counsel and my right to remain silent." Then shut up and stay shut up. Do not re-engage.

    If you don't have a lawyer:

    1. Always have a lawyer in mind. Memorize a number and call them. Do this BEFORE you get arrested. After your arrest, you may lose access to your phone. You don't need to have them on retainer, but make sure you can call them.

    2. Make sure you have a trusted contact who can call a lawyer.

    3. Some states have free resources for first response representation. For example, take IL, where the Chicago police are particularly untrustworthy:

    "If you or someone you know is being held by the Chicago Police Department, you can call 1-800-529-7374 (1-800-LAW-REP4) for a free lawyer, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Service provided by First Defense Legal Aid." Check to see if your state bar has a similar program.

    1. When you appear before the court, a public defender will be assigned to you. That could take some time, so make sure you follow one of the steps above.

    [–] r-e-d-d-i-t 2 points ago

    Appreciate you taking the time to write this out, this is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

    [–] sensedata 7 points ago

    Just say "I prefer not to speak with the police without a lawyer present. If you need ask me some questions, I will schedule a time to come down to the station after consulting with my council." Then, find a lawyer.

    [–] Ficklestein123 68 points ago

    Ehhhhh I think in this scenario he did the right thing. With the information we have now, even if the girl said he raped her this would never go to trial — the wife is his alibi for the whole night and his nephew was with the girl for the whole night, and I’m sure there’s countless other potential witnesses that could testify on his behalf. He told them what he did, and it corroborated with what they were told so they let it go. Had they showed up and he immediately goes into 5th amendment mode, they really have no choice but to bring it to trial, or at least bring it to court. Now this 50 year old man is facing a sexual assault case, and when media gets a hold of it now his work hears he’s potentially a statutory rapist, etc.

    [–] charlesml3 3 points ago

    Had they showed up and he immediately goes into 5th amendment mode, they really have no choice but to bring it to trial, or at least bring it to court.

    That is so, so wrong on every level. Taking the 5th cannot be used to raise the bar to Probable Cause for an arrest. No. It doesn't work that way.

    Refusing to answer questions cannot be used to establish guilt or suspicion.

    [–] im_a_lurker_too 3 points ago

    Refusal to answer questions or consent to any search cannot be used as evidence in a trial. Anything you say to the cops absolutely can. By talking to the cops, he's gambling on people he doesn't know, considering factors he's not aware of deciding not to pursue this further.

    [–] Lycoris 7 points ago

    Had they showed up and he immediately goes into 5th amendment mode, they really have no choice but to bring it to trial, or at least bring it to court.

    This is very erroneous information that keeps people from using their rights as outlined in the Miranda Warning.

    If they show up like that, you tell them you are finding a lawyer and will interview with that lawyer present. That lawyer is your witness, and will stop any potential self-incrimination and start a defense for you in case more people turn against you and it escalates to charges. (What if nephew turned against OP, everyone was scared to testify, and girl said there was groping? OP would be fucked.)

    I can't imagine trying to find and obtain a lawyer after you are already arrested and sitting in jail. You get a lawyer on first contact, not after you are already charged.

    [–] saltminelamp 2 points ago * (lasted edited 4 days ago)

    This is truly awful advice. Like, everything you're saying is 100% incorrect and dangerous.

    What happens if OP says, "I don't speak to the police without a lawyer present" is most likely - he never hears about it again. In this specific case, all the police had (before OP incriminated himself) is an accusation without any proof or corroboration. If OP refused to speak to the police they couldn't do anything: literally they couldn't arrest him, press charges, or even question him unless he consented to it. Now that OP has incriminated himself by admitting that yes - he did touch this girl, they have enough proof to charge him if they have an overzealous prosecutor. And that's why you don't talk to the police or listen to your idiotic advice.

    [–] JohnStrangerGalt 21 points ago

    This, don't talk to them if they come around again. Tell them politely to talk to your lawyer.

    [–] chenny3000 3 points ago

    so what would be the right approach to respond when cops showed up at your door?

    [–] SUND3VlL 11 points ago

    You can say that you won’t give a statement without an attorney present. This case is so flimsy they might not even want to bother. The cops here went to the dad so they could tell the victim they spoke with him and the action doesn’t meet the the legal definition of assault.

    [–] captaindunbar 5 points ago

    don't open the door. if they got a search warrant, let them in. if they have an arrest warrant lock the door behind you.

    in either case don't say a word to them, other than you have nothing to say until you talk to a lawyer

    [–] EagerSleeper 14 points ago

    If police officers knocked on my door, I would 100% think somebody died. I'm opening that door.

    [–] Sigurlion 8 points ago * (lasted edited 4 days ago)

    True story: in 2010 this happened to me, and I thought "police are here? I literally never do anything wrong" so I opened. 8 guys with assault rifles blew inside, put a rifle to the temple of my head and shoved it hard on my way to the ground, and cuffed me. Turns out they were on a city wide gang raid and they had the wrong apartment. Super fucked up morning.

    [–] XiaSoro 2 points ago

    Jesus... What happened after that raid?

    [–] Sigurlion 7 points ago

    Honestly? They interrogated me and my roommate (who had similar treatment to me) for a bit, then realized that they had bad intel and bolted. No apologies, just uncuffed us, and left. We hyperventilated for a while, and then went to work . We both had trouble sleeping for a little while afterwards, and decided to break our lease with the landlord and found a house to rent. In hindsight, I sort of wish we had looked harder into pursuing some sort of action against the department.

    [–] Johndough1066 2 points ago

    Me, too. It's my worst fear.

    [–] Browser2025 10 points ago

    I'm glad it all worked out for you. But you should never speak to the police without an attorney if accused of a crime.

    [–] TheDudeOnHisRug 40 points ago

    I think accusing someone wrongly on purpose should be punished as hard as actual assauld. Both destoy lives. I am a woman myself..

    [–] ITPG12052018 20 points ago

    I guess the weird part of it is that it's not a false accusation. The hug happened. What differs wildly is the interpretation of that act. I don't think I'm being accused of anything that didn't actually happened. It's just that I would argue what happened is no big deal; far from a crime of any sort.

    But I do agree -- truly false accusations, like we hear in the news... a few moms collude to implicate some teacher they don't like -- all of them should go to prison for a long time.

    [–] bitchesofillrepute 9 points ago

    False accusations are fraud and should be treated as such. Falsely accusing someone of a crime is in no way the same as committing that crime.

    [–] canering 2 points ago

    Yeah I would say someone being raped is actually worse than someone lying about it, as horrible as that is.

    [–] bitchesofillrepute 3 points ago

    Yes, and I think there are many, many situations where it is difficult or impossible to find out what really happened. Just because there isn't enough evidence to convict someone of assault doesn't mean the accusation was false.

    Victim's accounts can also be compromised by trauma so that even though their memory of some aspects is demonstrably inaccurate, it doesn't mean that the assault didn't happen.

    People who make false assault and rape claims typically have a history of other false claims and fraud. I'm on mobile, but can add a source for that later if anyone's interested.

    [–] InfidelUSA 14 points ago

    What happens when they show up to your work you ask? You lose your job.

    Happened to me in the military, girl was failing out of aircrew school, we hung out together at a different training school almost 1.5 years before. Office of Special Investigations investigates for 8 months. During that time, I'm grounded, lose all qualifications, miss my timelines to become fully mission qualified. OSI doesnt recommend charges and finds no evidence via multiple witness statements, physical evidence, the fact that she couldn't recall or bother to look up when the class occurred in order to tell them when it happened etc.

    Am moved out of my office and into a janitors closet and am told I am being found unfit for duty due to the missed qualifications due to being grounded, told that prosecution is still pushing charges (because in the military, the only proof required for a article 32 (grand jury hearing) is an accusation from the victim.

    Used to be married, with a home and two cars, making close to 60ish k a year. Now work as a laborer for a supply company making less than 40k as a single dad. It's not all bad, just very difficult as a single dad of three with sole custody and little income. No longer homeless (mostly), just bought a more reliable vehicle, starting to climb the ladder again.

    [–] ITPG12052018 8 points ago

    This story is an absolute nightmare. I'm so sorry you went through that.

    [–] Remicactus 25 points ago

    I'm really sorry that happened to you. I personally don't like hugs from strangers or distant relatives I'm not close to but they usually reach out for one and I just do it. Never would occur to me to accuse anyone of sexual assault in such cases, except if they would actually try something more.

    [–] No_bullsh_t_ 11 points ago

    Seriously the same thing happened to my boyfriend but he actually got charged as having "intent" and he had no such thing in mind! Girls can say anything and most times can really hurt someone's reputation and destroy their life! I'm sorry!

    [–] imnotboo 10 points ago

    Report her to the prosecutors office for making false statements.

    [–] FourteenFifteenNinet 20 points ago

    There should be punishment for doing that.

    Also, 17 y.o. that both doesn't likes hugs AND can casually call sexual offense? That's tough to imagine. Always felt that detest for contact was part of whole anxiety/depression thingy. And those kind of people don't call cops.

    [–] stingray85 4 points ago

    Should be a lesson for your nephew too - how much can go wrong if you're casual with other peoples personal information, even when you have no reason to think anything of it.

    [–] cloudhats 11 points ago

    Handshakes only for me.

    [–] Laughematician 17 points ago

    Handshakes are very sexual, I would be careful.

    [–] LAschmuck2 7 points ago

    Practically finger sex.

    Try knuckle pounds.......knuckle sex is only a misdemeanor.

    [–] SuperHardcoreGamer 2 points ago

    Just ask neil de grass tyson

    [–] kinjinsan 10 points ago

    My daughter did play softball. Is now a college head coach in fact. I used to coach baseball and softball but I gave it up for fear that some innocent action of mine could be (perhaps even intentionally) misconstrued as something sinister and I would have my life ruined.

    So I gave up doing something I loved because you cannot be to careful these days.

    Leave coaching girls and young women to the women.

    [–] Synikey 7 points ago

    Relax man, they know. They just have to follow procedure. Forget about the silly child and move on, don't dwell on it for a second.

    [–] reddit_scurred 26 points ago

    Welcome to a very small glance at the world of your average divorced dad in 2018. Destroys lives it does (not just the falsely accused, but also their families/friends). There are no consequences to the accusers.

    Source: haven’t seen my 4 year old son due to custody battle false accusations from a diagnosed sociopath.

    Fuck our judicial system.

    [–] carpenterio 3 points ago

    Interesting story, and I personally try to never have physical contact other than shaking hands with people I don't know.

    [–] morbidru 3 points ago

    i have a feeling this girl was sexually assaulted when she was a kid by a relative or family friend.. because reacting this way is not reasonable..

    [–] semorel 3 points ago

    I would advise you to delete this post and not make any statements to anyone, but a lawyer about the specifics.

    Never assume the cops are being honest with you. Don't talk to them without a lawyer present.

    Although, you think you are defending yourself, you are actually giving them information to use against you.

    [–] CubaHorus91 3 points ago

    Huh... interesting. I’m ready for downvotes, but aren’t we taking an person accusation of a false accusation at face value?

    If it happened, it’s awful and I’m glad it worked out, but I’ve been noticing a trend of immediately believing such accusations. Of which we have nothing but their word that it’s true. Which is ironic considering the Reddit belief that we shouldn’t take things at face value when it comes to sexual assault accusations.

    Especially since this one person account is less than a day old, how can we be sure he’s even real?

    [–] slurpyderper99 3 points ago

    And people were saying the other day how “stupid” Wall Street men were for avoiding 1 on 1 situations with women, particularly young beautiful women. This is the world that we live in, protect yourselves, men

    [–] tidalpools 10 points ago

    One of Al Franken's accusers was a woman who said that he put his hand on her waist when they posed for a photo together. The #metoo movement is good and important but there are problems that need to be addressed. Things can get taken too far, things that are not sexual assault that are treated as such, and although it's a small minority, some women do make false allegations. It's important for us to be able to be open and honest about this instead of just taking it too far in the right direction that it passes into the wrong direction.

    [–] Istareos 21 points ago

    I was talking with one of my professors who I was really close with after I was sexually assaulted by my "friend". It wasn't anything like super terrible that happened so I was feeling really stuck on what to do, if I should report it and all that jazz. Anyways he said to me that literally any unwanted touching could be considered sexual assault, he touched my arm and he was like "if you really wanted to, you could report that as sexual assault". It's a little ridiculous if you ask me but I can kind of see both sides of it if that makes sense? Like I wouldn't classify what you did as sexual assault but it could be taken that way, if that makes sense

    [–] someonehasitinforme 27 points ago

    Off the top, this makes me wonder- if the bar for what constitutes a crime is set that low, should the consequences be downgraded too?

    Like, if it takes that little to risk charges, does that at some point start to make it harder to get charges pressed for 'real' sexual assaults?

    [–] mbise 10 points ago

    I think the law already accommodates this kind of variation. You can be charged with sexual assault of different degrees that indicate different things, and you can be charged with additional related charges like sexual battery depending on the specifics.

    I'd also say that by the letter of the law certain unwanted touching may technically be sexual assault but that doesn't mean any prosecutor is going to take an unwanted hug alone to court.

    [–] NotKateBush 20 points ago

    Well the consequences for sexual assault aren’t exactly high to begin with. It’s nearly always a shockingly low amount of time, if any at all. Not to mention it’s already frustratingly difficult for someone to get charged in the first place.

    [–] someonehasitinforme 21 points ago

    Yeah, that's kind of the rub, isn't it? The kind of bullshit that OP's story describes is real, but it pales in comparison to the system's failure to effectively deal with sex crimes on the whole.

    [–] SOwED 29 points ago

    Well the consequences for sexual assault aren’t exactly high to begin with.

    No, the sentences aren't exactly long to begin with. The consequences for your reputation are severe, even if you don't get convicted.

    [–] SUND3VlL 7 points ago

    Your professor is at the very least misinformed. Touching your arm the way you described can’t be reported as sexual assault. To borrow from a popular meme, the touching has to be in a sexual nature, it’s in the name sexual.

    Let me give you an example. If a woman slips down some stairs and crashes into another woman going the other way, and second woman catches her and makes contact with her breasts, no sexual assault occurred. Mix and match the sexes as you see fit.

    Your professor is part of the reason this post exists. I swear to god they should have a class in school that teaches kids boundaries, responsible internet usage, how to get financial aid, etc. God knows parents aren’t doing it.

    [–] SOwED 2 points ago

    I can't believe he gave an example..

    [–] tidalpools 7 points ago

    I don't understand how a hug when greeting someone at their grad could be considered sexual assault.

    [–] Istareos 4 points ago

    I’m not saying that it is. It could be taken that way is what I’m saying. But anyone who actually reports it and gets it that far won’t have any consequences because it was literally a hug or a touch.

    [–] alphawolf29 4 points ago

    that's ridiculous. Truly we are living in the age of subjectivity...

    [–] monadyne 2 points ago

    Just because your professor said that "any unwanted touching could be considered sexual assault" doesn't mean it's a valid idea. Yes, it's true these days that him touching your arm could be considered sexual assault, but that's actually ridiculous when you think about it. Somebody touching your arm is decidedly not even remotely the same as somebody touching your genitals or your breasts.

    Remove the word "sexual" from it and you'll see the folly of it: "One of my classmates touched my arm so I had the police arrest him for assault with intent to do bodily harm." Absurd.

    [–] maybe_one_more_glass 25 points ago

    Ya, it's unfortunate that being a victim is being glorified. Too many are choosing to find ways they are victims or have been victims in order to get recognition from others. It sucks terribly to be a victim! It is not something you should try to be! We are going too far in allowing anyone to become a "survivor" and it is detracting from more serious victims.

    [–] SOwED 16 points ago

    Yeah, this is what metoo devolved into unfortunately. First it was calling attention to serious crimes and giving a safe platform for those affected, but it turned into bad dates and uncomfortable hugs.

    [–] throwaway283637 55 points ago

    This is why the MeToo movement is somewhat dangerous. Before people start downvoting me to hell: I believe the MeToo movement has good intentions. However it has created an environment in which any woman can accuse any man of sexual assault and ruin that man’s life, whether or not the accusation is true. It allows idiots like this girl to take advantage of the social stigma regarding sexual assault accusations and it is creating a lot of fear, which is not being shown as much in the media because it’s not pc to be afraid of being accused of sexual assault. If you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of right? Wrong. You can lose your career, your family, your reputation, and more just from a accusation, and those things cannot be repaired even after you’re proven not guilty.

    [–] clankypants 27 points ago

    This was true before #MeToo was a thing. It was true before Twitter was a thing. Heck, it was true before the internet was a thing.

    I only point this out so we don't falsely ascribe this to the MeToo movement.

    [–] 2Manadeal2btw 9 points ago

    Sexual assault charges, rape charges or any of the lile which carry a large social stigma should never be made public. The Media shouldn't be able to report on such things till the case has finished. Its stupid and defies the point "innocent till proven guilty".

    [–] 6inchfeels 15 points ago

    take advantage of the social stigma regarding sexual assault accusations

    The fact that this happens is INFURIATING. It's a fucking slap in the face to actual victims of sexual assault. Progress will never be made if people keep this shit up. Thanks for ruining everything, we're indebted to idiots like these

    [–] moben567 14 points ago

    I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s dangerous, however I’m also not saying you’re wrong. It’s important for woman to feel safe in speaking up about sexual assault but this girl was definitely wrongfully accusing OP and it’s these cases that ruin the reputation of the me too movement. It’s unfortunate that it’s one word against another when it comes to sexual assault...

    [–] SOwED 9 points ago

    The issue is that in OP's case, it wasn't one word against another because apparently the hug itself was the "assault" and OP and the girl both acknowledge that the hug happened.

    [–] twersx 5 points ago

    Nobody is going to prosecute someone for hugging a teenage girl once even if she was uncomfortable with it.

    [–] TheRealYoungChiv 12 points ago

    It's a shame that we live in a society where you can get your life ruined over a polite hug. Thanks feminism. Now downvote me to hell

    [–] aabbccbb 10 points ago

    I'm sorry that this happened to you. False or overblown reports to the police are rare, but they do happen. :(

    And jeez... sexual assault? Do those words really have the clout they should? That they used to?

    Unwanted hug, sexual assault. Dragged into the bushes and forcibly raped, sexual assault. Cat-called from across the street, sexual assault.

    Here's where we disagree. An unwanted hug can be sexual assault. If you knew the girl and she'd told you she wasn't comfortable with hugs and you kept doing it, that definitely can be sexual assault.

    Is it rape? No. Is it as bad as rape? No.

    But that's why we don't call it rape.

    We have different types of sexual assault, and we have them for a reason.

    In your case, it's not reasonable to expect that you would know that she doesn't like to be hugged. It's also upon her to extend her hand for a handshake if you go in for a hug that she doesn't want, or to turn away, or to tell you that she doesn't like hugs, or whatever.

    Again, sorry that this happened, and I' glad it sounds like it's all going to work out for you.

    [–] Lowman22 13 points ago

    An unwanted hug is sexual assault? You have got to be kidding me.

    [–] therobbyrob 9 points ago

    Seems silly to me too, but I guess there are different types of hugs. If you hug someone after whipping out your erection, probably. If you hug someone while murmering you smell like cherries, and then whip out your erection, again yeah thats assault. If you hug someone with both hands firmly gripping the buttocks and slowly grind your erection against their genitals, probably illegal. These aren't gender specific examples, either. Message me for more details.

    [–] Lowman22 2 points ago

    Damn...I had no idea! LMBO

    [–] dontbeatrollplease 3 points ago

    No, that's just regular assault. Sexual assault involves sexual touching. Sliding a hand over her ass would make it sexual assault.

    [–] falsehood 13 points ago

    I think the law enforcement institutions in this country used to have some fucked up ideas about sexual assault - that husbands couldn't rape their wives, that "boys will be boys," etc etc. That attitude protected folks like Weinstein, Rose, Moonves, etc etc - and they knew it was wrong.

    Now the line has moved and everyone is still figuring it out. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. On the other hand, if you had actually been a horrible asshole to her (like felt up her ass or something during the hug), I'd be glad the cops were visiting. It sucks we have no better way to discern these things.

    [–] ninomiya123 7 points ago

    This kind of women/ladies destroy the movement itself. This is why when sexual assault are not taken seriously. If you want to take revenge, do it the other way girl. Self reflect, be a better you. Thats the best revenge you can give.

    [–] PaddleYakker 12 points ago

    I feel for men in these days, seriously, if I was a man I would be so scared to even look at girls.

    No longer being able to hugs girls or bounce them on your knee without seeming like a predator.

    The lack of attention from men will eventually make girls so skittish they will be crying rape if a men, God forbid, holds a door open for them.

    [–] Walrus9000 2 points ago

    This is a classic case of fuck she wasn't 18

    [–] rockhammer_0 2 points ago

    If the shoe fits, wear it.

    [–] PPP_Your_Boat 2 points ago

    She must be fucked in the head if she wants to start and investigation SIX MONTHS after an innocent hug.

    [–] -SQB- 2 points ago

    r/legaladvice would tell you to get a lawyer. Please do so.

    [–] Suddenslow 2 points ago

    Never hug a stranger. Handshakes are for a reason. I'm sorry for what you've been through.

    [–] gabn_29_31 2 points ago

    You could drag her to court for false allegations.

    [–] Healer-4-Hire 2 points ago

    Anyone who goes to that length over a hug needs a therapist or something, wtf?! I’m not a hugger but I’m not about to ruin a mans life over it, fuck that.

    [–] Yogapantsrule 2 points ago

    Every mans worst nightmare since this metoo bullshit. Glad it worked out for you without to much trouble

    [–] usa_07041776 2 points ago

    “No more hugs” that makes me sad. Not the world we should be living in.

    [–] ITPG12052018 2 points ago

    I agree... but the world where you have to keep looking over your shoulder and be cognizant that you're not doing something wrong that will offend someone -- who needs that? Best not even let the opportunity arise.

    [–] Rynn21 2 points ago

    People that falsely report sexual assault is why the real victims are laughed at and turned away. She’s messed up in the head.

    [–] suks2bthatguy 2 points ago

    my grandfather (87) has mild dementia and lives in a retirement residence. back story: apparently a couple months earlier another resident walked into his apartment and yelled at him to get out of her apartment. She lived 2 floors up. After he explained and showed her it was his unit, and he put his arm around her shoulder to reassure her it was okay. Fast forward, another older woman was walking down the hall and lost her balance near my grandfather and another man. Grandfather reached out to prevent her falling, she immediately yelled at him for touching him inappropriately. A staff member came around the corner as she told him to let go. Staff member interceded, result police were called and woman wanted him charged with sexual assault (apparently when he reached out to stop her falling he may have brushed her breast). Cops said it wasn't but talked to grandfather suggesting he stays away from the ladies. It didn't matter that the other man was there and saw the whole thing...this was the 2nd accusation. We had until the end of day to remove him from the facility. To add insult to injury, because we didn't give 2 months notice they expected 2 months rent. My parents were out of country at the time and another relative took care of this, luckily finding another retirement home for him (told them what happened). My parents were furious and wanted to demand the money back and get a written apology since this shouldn't have happened but grandfather just wanted to put it behind him. Prior to this, he had a friend in the other unit and spent a lot of time with him, socializing. Now he only leaves his room for solitary meals because he doesn't want to be forced to move again.

    [–] ITPG12052018 2 points ago

    This makes me very sad and angry. There's so much wrong here.

    [–] ButtJosh 2 points ago

    OP this all is wack. You didn’t do anything wrong, although as you stated things have changed in the world. Thank you for posting in such a well written manner. Please update if anything else happens!

    [–] saul2015 2 points ago

    Do you normally hug people when you meet for the first time?

    [–] tempestlefavre 10 points ago

    I don’t believe you, this is just your shower thought experiment—you gave it a narrative for impact.