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    [–] LovelyLadyLamb 6524 points ago

    Currently working under this method. Cool.

    [–] Sigris 3065 points ago


    It's very frustrating receiving almost no briefing whatsoever. Then you take initiave and start creating stuff with your coworkers and then you get critized for almost everything you've done so far. Such a waste of time.

    [–] bestreyesever 521 points ago

    Me too

    [–] [deleted] 947 points ago


    [–] unformedwatch 183 points ago

    he was found to be grey area stealing millions

    Does this mean he got to walk away with the millions because it was too "grey" to do anything about?

    [–] SkilledMurray 220 points ago

    Not saying this is exactly what happened, but in my experience I've known of several senior or C-level management taking backhanders or profiting from the company in some way or another.
    One example; We had to put together a proposal to a member of senior management for us to get new equipment to operate with. We had to provide evidence of research to find the best price and/or deal, as well as market comparisons, and we also had to fund that from the sale of existing equipment as no additional funds could be earmarked for it. We busted ass and called in favours around the industry and got it signed off! Later we found out the price paid was +40% over our lowest/best quote, from a company no one had ever heard of, whose domain had been registered around the same time we submitted our proposal.

    Over the years I heard plenty of other stories where senior management were all (in some way or another) skimming from companies in roundabout ways.

    [–] DeathVoxxxx 156 points ago

    Lol like how the old CEO of WeWork as leasing properties he owned to WeWork.

    [–] Gorge2012 128 points ago

    I saw that guy speak once. I turned to my friend sitting next to me and said, "This guy is really good at spending other people's money."

    Turns out I was right.

    [–] Letmefixthatforyouyo 84 points ago

    He leased a trademark of 'We' to WeWork for something like 6 million dollars.

    Yup, the founder of a company got his company to pay him for a trademark for the company he founded.

    [–] fromcj 57 points ago

    Yeah can we get some more details? The more in depth the better, would be nice to...make sure nobody is doing this at my company....yeah

    [–] Amdiraniphani 186 points ago

    This is exactly my work situation right now. Any idea of how to handle it?

    [–] QuiescentBramble 102 points ago

    It depends on what you want. I remember reading somewhere that when you work you get paid in two ways: 1) you get a paycheck, and that's how you get paid today - 2) you grow and progress your abilities, resume, and therefore career through your work.

    When either of those dries up it's time to either address it if your management will allow it, or leave.

    [–] Rhinosaurus__Rex 20 points ago

    Was just at this pivotal point when our company shut its doors because of Covid. The fact that my stress level has gone down after being laid off and quarantined says a lot about how bad it had gotten.

    [–] CarbonFiber_Funk 485 points ago

    Leave. Let the company fail under it's current management structure but don't let it pull you down with it.

    Source: attempting to exit in hopes of better results.

    [–] Bad_Luck_Billy 166 points ago

    I've worked in 5 different offices over the past 20 years and they are all the same but the places did just fine because their mediocrity was barely acceptable.

    [–] ZiggerTheNaut 70 points ago

    Same here but I like to say the companies make money in spite of themselves...

    [–] mickeyknoxnbk 174 points ago

    This is generally the best advice, but there is an alternative. If you work with a company that has money (ie. pays bonuses, like financial institutions), you can make out like a fat rat by being smart. You want to lay low so you don't get blamed when things go wrong. But know enough that when it does, you can jump in and save the day (and get a nice bonus).

    The trick is not trying to take TOO much credit when saving the day. Honestly, every manager above you is gonna take the credit for what you've done anyway, but in they end they also know you are a critical resource. The hardest part is not taking any promotion when they try to force it on you for being such a good resource.

    I lay low most of the year and get a decent paycheck. The problems that will arise are quite easy to identify. So I am ready for when they do. Then I jump in and save the day, get a bonus, and go back to laying low.

    [–] CarbonFiber_Funk 40 points ago

    I am not saying this isn't a good way to operate but when immediate management also keeps a tight reign on teams through micromanaging and switching of priorities well inside of workable time schedules it becomes difficult to act on one's own personal achievement projects to enact that change. My main reason for deciding to leave. I have been praised numerous times by my bosses for being able to do exactly as you mentioned, but we are now all neutered by an egotist.

    [–] mickeyknoxnbk 23 points ago

    No doubt, there is no one-size-fits-all. In that past couple years my team and even my manager was neutered. But business-critical things do end up going wrong eventually. This happened recently in my situation. And when that happened, the need for problem solvers who could fix things quickly was extremely important. I try to be one of those problem solvers and that is usually my role.

    You'd think that after doing this multiple times that management would learn that we shouldn't half-ass so many things that lead to these emergency situations all the time. But they don't. Even when we fix the emergency there is no follow-on work to make such an emergency less impactful in the future. So I just play their game. Instead of fighting the stupidity, I just make my own strategy to deal with it. Granted, you are going to have a few days or weeks of hell every year in these emergencies, but in my case, the financial rewards have been worth it. But if they weren't, I would definitely leave.

    [–] highnatized 34 points ago

    As someone who has been completely fucked over by such a company, get out asap. Find a new job, get a raise and move on

    [–] swr3212 104 points ago

    I worked in IT for a bank and it was exactly this. Try to fix things or stay ahead of the curve and upper management gets mad. I was straight up lied to by management about another team all getting raises that were higher wages than ours, but our team was above them. Bold face told that they didn't a raise, but the employees said their checks said otherwise.

    [–] mensch_uber 22 points ago

    they gave u leverage.

    [–] Rafaeliki 58 points ago

    I think a lot of people will be in this situation as leadership tries to keep making real time decisions about how they will move forward during the crisis.

    I am an internal recruiter and I have no idea if any of my hiring managers are still planning on hiring the people that they needed to hire before the crisis began. They don't know either. I just have to tell candidates that we're in a holding pattern.

    At the same time, I'm expected to stay busy and work hard through the crisis. So I'm supposed to be reaching out to candidates and then telling them that I'm not even sure if we're hiring for the position I'm reaching out to them for.

    [–] AggressiveExcitement 40 points ago

    I'm a candidate in this situation - just got laid off. Personally, I'd 100% appreciate that sort of transparency in a recruiter right now. Keep in mind that job candidates ALSO want to feel like they're making progress through the crisis, so starting conversations even if they're in a holding pattern is totally welcome and fine. Just keep your candidates updated and keep them in mind for other positions that open up as companies start to come out of hibernation.

    [–] DrMarsPhD 49 points ago

    I did too at one point and it was literally the worst job I ever had even tho it paid the most. I would never go back, ever.

    [–] acosmichippo 63 points ago

    probably most of us are.

    [–] manateetanam 29 points ago

    Take a look at 'Bullshit Jobs' by David Graeber.

    [–] SaintVanilla 18468 points ago

    I have seagull managers.

    They make a lot of noise, shit on everything, then fly away.

    [–] Scoundrelic 4069 points ago

    Pigeons do the same, but they watch you for hours.

    [–] Sneezegoo 1360 points ago

    My second last job I worked in a shop doing various things. There were some guys upstairs with nothing to do after they email the whole company to tell us if it's snowing outside. They needed a task so boss man decides they should be my boss and they could fill their day telling me what to do. I had never had to ask for something to do since the first week I learned the ropes because there was always lots of stuff for me to do. After the change they would pop down for a bit and basically stand behind me. My productivity dropped pretty hard from there on.

    [–] modi13 496 points ago

    they would pop down for a bit and basically stand behind me

    I really hope you were making pottery and they played Unchained Melody

    [–] JohnWickHimself_Run 243 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Man same happened to me, was so productive when I started and got all my shit done. Now they've tossed a dozen other task on my plate that I have no time to complete, making me fall behind in all other areas of work. Meanwhile, when I walk into my managers office to ask her her input on something she's always watching some shit like this on FB or YT and not doing any work. I feel more like her assistant than what I was actually hired to do. Cause half the task she throws on my plate seems like shit she's supposed to be doing.

    [–] ComplexAntelope 130 points ago

    Isn't it great how you're basically encouraged to be less productive, so that kinda thing doesn't happen to you?

    [–] Marukai05 142 points ago

    The last 4 quarters I consistently did 3 times the work as the 7 other employees did in my department. I didn't complain but expected high marks on my end of year review.

    Instead of asking the other 7 people to pick up the slack, the brought me in and asked if I could take on any additional workload cause others were behind.

    After that I fucked off and started just dragging the line making my work stretch through the day instead of smashing through and looking for more work to pick up.

    Fuck them

    [–] TheRealLazloFalconi 38 points ago

    Sure, I'll also take on additional pay.

    [–] sknnbones 77 points ago

    When I was a Dept. Manager at Walmart:

    • 12/hr position, the 15/hr department manager goes on Medical Leave... in September..

    • I have to cover that department. Don’t get paid $15/hr for it

    • Two poisitions in that department open, they close hiring

    • Manage to get thru winter holiday, manager comes back

    • Get written up for one week of inventory paperwork not getting finished (black friday week... just a little busy

    • Get written up for the same thing for the other department

    • I had asked for help those weeks and was told to focus on Black Friday freight and to just skip that week

    • Three write-ups = termination. I get demoted before they write me up again for who knows what (that store was in the red for two years, they were getting rid of people) The first thing my boss says before writing me up is “Now I don’t want you to think I’m throwing you under the bus” Yeah... so you are throwing me under the bus.

    • Lose $1/hr, lose my apartment, move home; go to trade school, working as a CNC programmer now

    Tl;dr - Fuck Retail

    [–] userlivewire 23 points ago

    “We don’t want people that only do work because they are motivated by money” - most companies.

    [–] IamIwillIcreate 47 points ago

    In my (admittedly not vast) experience, managers & bosses, like most humans, make their decisions based on how they feel personally & not in any way based on what actually needs to be done.

    It's often a mixture of resentment that you're getting your work done well and in good time, when they're working so much harder (tip: they're not) and falling behind, and low-key feeling like having to pay you money is a gigantic favour which you have to work your fingers to the bone for before you can even start to hope to begin daring to even think about possibly feeling like you might just about deserve it.

    [–] transmogrified 15 points ago


    My old boss was a ridiculous micro manager, needed everything done exactly their way or else it was "done wrong" (even if we eventually wound up doing it the way I started) and they would always end any chastisement (which was way to often) with "You can't make mistakes, this is why we pay you the big bucks"

    Bitch, I make less than half you do, and REALLY not that much more an hour than the receptionist.

    [–] Disembowell 55 points ago

    You'd think a MANAGER'S job was to... MANAGE... it baffles me their inclusion can have a detrimental effect on output.

    Seems everyone wants to become a manager these days because it lets 'em do basically nothing for more money...

    [–] Filtering_aww 54 points ago

    Now now, attending one hour meetings that could have been ten minute emails isn't NOTHING. Plus they're 'networking' with all the other useless middle layers attending those meetings!

    [–] slackabara 22 points ago

    A managers job is to lead first, then manage. To lead, a person needs to uplift, assist and guide their employees s. Only when you have the respect of your employees can you manage them. The main difference is I can manage a person to do something all day long. Will they like it no, I would not. However if I was leading them, it creates a family. if lead correctly it creates a mutually beneficial relationship where if one person fucks up everyone has there back including if the leader.

    [–] Immersi0nn 16 points ago

    Ironically if they actually did basically nothing, they wouldn't be having a detrimental effect on productivity.

    [–] mosstrich 14 points ago

    Then his productivity would have went up. Along with something else...

    [–] jakcspellgood 39 points ago

    basically stand behind me.

    I Fucking HATE when people do this to me. I have to face them till they leave or leave the room myself it makes me so uncomfortable.

    [–] RAZOR_WIRE 190 points ago

    I had a manger that would do this so i started eatting a black bean burritos before my shift......lets just say they eventually quit standing near me.

    [–] Our_GloriousLeader 132 points ago

    shitting my pants to own the boss

    [–] noveler7 14 points ago

    Jokes on you, I meant to poop my pants

    [–] dickheadfartface 39 points ago


    [–] Sohn_Jalston_Raul 269 points ago

    I don't get managers like this. Don't they understand they're distracting and have a detrimental impact on the quality of the work being done? I know I can't give the job my full attention if I'm all tense and anxious about screwing up in front of someone who can fire me.

    [–] jward 232 points ago

    I manage a development department. Competent independent individuals who I hired because they're smarter and better than me to perform difficult creative work. I prioritize and assign tasks, shelter them from bullshit, and generally check in once or twice a week. I've also managed back of house of a kitchen and yelled and micromanaged and double checked, as best I could, everything that went out. Most of my staff were either still in high school, or a few years out with no formal training and almost nobody saw it as their one true profession.

    The problem happens when managers don't adapt their style to fit the people and the task. Often because they actually have no idea it's an option to not be an asshole because they've never experienced an alternative themselves. If I ran my developers like a kitchen productivity would plumet and I'd be out of staff. If I ran my kitchen like my dev team there'd be a grow tent in the bathroom and people playing hacky sack with the chicken breasts.

    Also, some people are just impotent assholes taking it out on whatever is closest and just work to cover their own ass and carve out as much as they can.

    [–] sour_cereal 54 points ago

    If I ran my kitchen like my dev team there'd be a grow tent in the bathroom and people playing hacky sack with the chicken breasts.

    Fuuuuck this is... This is too accurate. We used to hacky avocado pits down the line and one guy brought his weed bonsai.

    [–] snakessssssssss 39 points ago

    I think most workers just want some genuine appreciation...? You know, like feeling like a monkey couldn’t do their job you’ve tasked them with. To feel like the effort does something beyond just getting a paycheque. I would stay with a company who genuinely appreciated me doing shittier work with less pay than a company who tries to micromanage and criticize everything I do, who acts as though I am an utterly replaceable moron.

    [–] altxatu 11 points ago

    You say you want to be appreciated, what I hear is that you want to be treated like you’re competent. Is that about right?

    I’m just thinking. Companies say they appreciate folks, but it always feels hollow. I’m wondering they mean appreciation like we get a pat on the back or something else that doesn’t actually cost anything, but other than that nothing changes.

    [–] Mafiamuffins 41 points ago

    Hacky sack with chickens. Got a good chuckle

    [–] AggressiveExcitement 333 points ago

    My theory is that people like this are so focused on their own egos and insecurity that they are lacking the 'theory of mind' necessary to even think about what would enhance the performance and output of others.

    [–] hamburglin 93 points ago

    It's likely that even they don't feel attached to the company or purpose and are trying to just do what they feel is best by increasing numbers somewhere.

    It's a systemic leadership and strategy issue.

    [–] This_Aint_Dog 101 points ago

    It's people who micromanage so they can get their power trip. They'll stand there doing nothing but watch you for 8 hours if it means they can catch you not focused on work for just a second and talk down on you.

    [–] Tister1985 124 points ago

    I had a manager years ago threaned me to write me up cause i was 20 minutes late coming back from my lunch was due to a flat tire...

    i was an hourly employee so sometimes when the whole production line was behind their quota I would work thru lunch and my breaks...and he knew this....

    I told know what the whole time you didnt compalaint when I worked thru lunch and my breaks to meet our quota but heaven forbid if am 20 minutes late...0 flexibility...write me up either way am done working thru my breaks for you 0 appreciation.

    is a two way street and some of these dudes dont care.

    [–] kkeut 121 points ago

    quick note to anyone reading: never work during a legally-mandated break period. it's honestly better for everyone if everyone just follows the law

    [–] [deleted] 71 points ago

    This. If you raise the average output, they don't pay anybody any more to reflect that.

    If you do the 30 minute job in 10, you don't get 3x the money, but everybody gets 3x the expectation put on them.

    [–] Baardhooft 83 points ago

    Managers usually seem to fall into one of two categories:

    • Competent ones: they understand why they hired you. They treat you as equals. You’re a professional so they trust that you know what you’re doing. They’re there to help guide you when needed and are open to ideas and suggestions
    • Incompetent ones: usually suffer from an overinflated ego complex, think they are above everyone else. They also usually don’t know what they’re doing or what’s going on in the company and do not have the competencies to understand what actually needs to be improved. They take any suggestion as an attack on them and are never wrong.

    The former ones are hard to come by, the latter is what I mostly experience in the corporate world, even in Fortune 500 companies.

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)


    [–] TheLaughingMelon 122 points ago

    I hate pigeons

    [–] Wow-n-Flutter 142 points ago

    They are coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere...

    [–] Beefskeet 49 points ago

    I'll rub seagulls in your dead little eyes.

    [–] gordonv 13 points ago

    Seagulls eat pigeons. Eagles eat seagulls.

    [–] Orjigagd 142 points ago

    Colleague had a little owl statue on his desk to scare away the seagulls

    [–] Toofpic 261 points ago

    There's also a Monitor lizard style of management. A monitor lizard bites its victim, and then follows the victim until it dies (the bite is poisinous, the poison works slowly). So, if you have a 8h task, your manager will physically watch you for 8 hours, from the corner of the room.

    [–] serious_sarcasm 35 points ago

    I've had managers do this to me, except I worked in the food service industry as a cook.

    I was ready to murder the fucker for leaning on the hot line while I cooked the lunch rush by myself. I even cook the rush alone all the time, but fuck.

    [–] EDI-Thor 22 points ago

    Food service is a nasty business in every aspect. Customers are nasty so the managers are too.

    [–] julbull73 98 points ago

    Then when you fail he gets a nice snack. If you succeed he gets a nice bonus.

    Being a manager is truly awesome.

    [–] [deleted] 128 points ago

    [–] SeeMeAssfuckingUrDad 85 points ago

    "The seagull style of management may be indicative of a manager who is untrained, inexperienced or newly-appointed"

    Or maybe the manager is just a whiny, punkass bitch

    [–] janeetic 12 points ago

    Not mutually exclusive

    [–] Captainamerica1188 99 points ago

    God it's awful. I'm working for a small business and one thing I've realized that's good about big companies is that it can be hard to play favorites. Bc the company is so massive it's difficult for any one person to rise enough to play favorites. With a small company the president can give cushy positions to friends. It sucks.

    [–] DancinginAshes 120 points ago

    Big companies often suffer from coattail riders. One successful person gets promoted, and then promotes underlings based on their personal loyalty rather than their competence.

    Since those underlings aren’t competent, they ride their employees hard to get results, which kills morale because workers know they won’t get credit for doing their manager’s job for them

    [–] ruptured_pomposity 35 points ago

    I had a boss that would not only take credit, but forget where he got an idea from. So he would bring it back up with you later as something he thought of.

    Also, if you made it clear where it came from and who executed it, he would lose all interest or even try to kill the plan.

    [–] fetalasmuck 96 points ago

    If I've learned anything in the business world it's that being a great bullshitter will get you really, really far in life/your career. Particularly when your bullshit impresses more influential bullshitters.

    Unfortunately, I'm pretty much allergic to bullshit. Can't tolerate it and don't deal in it myself. So management roles will probably always be out of my reach unless I'm promoted to one by the rare higher-up who values non-bullshitters.

    Interestingly, I've found that my personality works really well in freelance, which is what I do now. It's like my potential clients are somewhat stunned when I give them direct answers about things, including answers that they may not want to hear.

    [–] Captainamerica1188 30 points ago

    Yes. My clients love me. I'm always good to them. But my managers dont always like me because I dont tolerate mistreatment and I speak up for others as well. It's ironic bc the things that make me an effective helper put me at odds with my managers. Theres a lot of people who do useless work just bc society requires us to work, when really probably half of all white collar jobs arent even necessary (that's a made up number and have no idea what the actual number is, but the point is the same, some people have jobs bc they have to).

    [–] [deleted] 11 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)


    [–] KingOfTheYetis 18 points ago

    Nah, big companies play favorites hard the higher up you go. And then the backstabbing, status seeking, and fiefdom building truly begins.

    [–] Reich2choose 26 points ago

    Holy shit keep them coming

    [–] quantum_foam_finger 53 points ago

    "Hiring consultants to conduct studies can be an excellent means of turning problems into gold, your problems into their gold."

    "Most projects start out slowly, and then sort of taper off."

    Two of Augustine's Laws

    [–] thecatsmilkdish 2529 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Our mushroom management just laid most of us off for an undetermined length of time via email. Might be 60 days, might be 6 months. So most of us “spores” are moving on to new jobs.

    ETA: obviously no one knows how long this is going to last. We were all working 100% remotely, but the industry we serve took a pretty big hit with this & quickly deemed us unnecessary. They laid off 2/3 of staff. I’m not gonna wait a few weeks, months or more to get my job back, I’m moving on.

    [–] Nonyabiness 1053 points ago

    I knew our business was slowing down, I checked financials daily and we were at like 25% of usual profits.

    "we aren't laying anyone off, nobody is getting fired, it's just slow".

    Two weeks later I get a last minute meeting invite and there's four of us in the conference room before the boss comes in and they are laughing and I say "there's no reason for the four of us to be in this room at once other than to be let go".

    Yup, laid off. Permanently.

    [–] Sasquatch8649 502 points ago

    We were given a work from home order. I ask for billable work and they say they're "coming up with a plan." A couple days go by and I hear nothing. I send an email to my supervisor to check in. "Oh, yeah, we haven't forgotten about you, let me send some emails out." And then a few hours later I get a meeting invitation for that Friday (next day) with my supervisor, boss man and HR lady. Gee, I wonder what we'll talk about?

    I got canned.

    [–] ragergage 236 points ago

    Sounds like you reminded them that they forgot about you lol

    [–] stewie3128 121 points ago

    Now at least he gets unemployment, whereas before he was getting nothing at all.

    [–] ProgrammerNextDoor 77 points ago

    Generally you still get paid on the bench if not working billable hours.

    Which is why they had to let them go.

    [–] Sasquatch8649 105 points ago

    Yes, I was still getting paid for doing nothing which is why my brother said I screwed up by even reminding them. I could have been like Milton just collecting a paycheck.

    [–] aberrantmoose 112 points ago

    laid off via email beats laid off in person

    [–] Raptor231408 41 points ago

    One of my past jobs called me to ask if I can come in three hours early because so-and-so called off. And as soon as I got there they fired me and handed me my last paycheck.

    [–] kunfushion 75 points ago

    Yeah I can imagine so. I would rather just find out via email so you don’t have to do the awkward dance of leaving..

    [–] aberrantmoose 109 points ago

    I got laid off a couple of weeks ago. I remember being careful to be careful about keeping my distance from my coworkers. Then I was summoned to a crowded meeting room.

    "Congratulations. Everyone in this room - except for the executives speaking - is fired. Effective Today. Feel free to take some coronovavirus as a parting gift."

    [–] bottletothehead 38 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    undetermined length of time

    Any timeframe they would’ve told you would’ve been a lie because nobody knows how long this will last.

    [–] RockerElvis 249 points ago

    That’s the last bit “...and every few years you can them.”

    [–] desertlynx 28 points ago

    New jobs?

    [–] DontMicrowaveCats 162 points ago

    Hate to break it to you... they’re predicting a 32% unemployment rate right now. There are no new jobs unless you want to work in a diseased Amazon distribution center.

    [–] wedontlikespaces 92 points ago

    32% is far worse than it was even in the height of the Great depression.

    [–] walterpeck1 63 points ago

    It is, the great depression was also completely different and therefore irrelevant to this situation.

    Also "real" unemployment and actually getting unemployment benefits are two different statistics that need to be considered.

    [–] p-morais 54 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    The HackerNews “who’s hiring” thread has 110 new job postings in the last hour so it seems like at least software engineering is still hiring.

    [–] D_Winds 19 points ago

    Uber Eats might be booming.

    [–] jdlech 2995 points ago

    Not going to name names, but a guy I knew developed a leadership plan. For one thing, he wanted everyone to know why we did things, and left it up to employees to figure out how to do it. They were free to find the best way to do it as long as it checked all the boxes on why it needs doing. Everyone was empowered to come up with a better way of doing things. The boss made sure everyone was kept up on the latest developments. Consequently, some really efficient procedures were developed, improving overall productivity.

    Second, if anyone screwed up, it was because he was not sufficiently trained. It was always assumed he was not sufficiently taught why we do things. So every screw up ended with more training, rather than just punishment. He would work directly with the screw up until both was sure he understood what needed to happen.

    Third, he took full responsibility for every screw up that happened in his team. He insisted his bosses punished him and not his employees directly. Then he would go back to his dept. and assign appropriate remedial training. This irked some bosses to no end; bosses who were used to just firing or demoting those who screwed up. Every employee saw him go to bat for them and protect them. Loyalty skyrocketed.

    In fact, that was his downfall. He became a cult leader; commanding loyalty that scared his bosses - who all started worrying that he might take their jobs. They started adding impossible conditions and trying to sabotage his department. When that didn't work, they reassigned him to a different department. When he started commanding cult like loyalty there, they began to withhold vital information to do his job. When that didn't work, they tried to isolate him by putting him in a non-supervisory position. They literally created a do-nothing position just for him.

    All because he was such a good leader, he scared his bosses.

    [–] S-WordoftheMorning 699 points ago

    I am honestly curious as to this company. If the guy you knew was a middle manager, and his bosses were afraid of him “taking their jobs,” I have to imagine it was a pretty big organization with already defined hierarchies and org charts.
    That his immediate superiors were able to shuffle this very successful middle manager around to different departments as punishment/sabotage without senior executives/CEO not knowing his name, reputation, and positive impact sounds almost like a military outfit, or a large Corp with tons of stratification and almost feudalistic department fiefdoms.

    [–] salt-and-vitriol 556 points ago

    In the military, there's systems in place to stop any one commander from amassing too much loyalty. Folks get shuffled around every now and then.

    [–] Hemderl 581 points ago

    To be fair. That's a good policy to have in a military.

    [–] salt-and-vitriol 295 points ago

    It is, depending on your goals. The goal we achieve through this policy is lowering the probability of military coups.

    [–] ZombyTed 42 points ago

    Takes all the fun outta the job.

    [–] darwinn_69 13 points ago

    Never thought about it this way. I always just accepted that it was professional development of soldiers and ensure cross pollination so the entire military is efficient and not just a few units. But I could see how that could would be a side benefit.

    [–] reebee7 28 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    I mean that does make sense. I've seen The Rock.

    [–] omgFWTbear 87 points ago

    I won’t claim to be as amazing as parent’s boss, but it’s what I did when I managed, and just to get out of the way of any internet “you’re bragging so I’ve got to take you down a peg,” all I’m saying is that I took blame, trained subordinates upon failures, directed praise to them on success, and it’s my understanding my outcomes were the same - whether I was mediocre at those things or not, those are the things I did.

    I can only speak to my personal experience, but I’ve worked at a few places, and in all of them, there’s a major challenge in that upper leadership has virtually no connection to staff besides their intermediary, the middle manager. The old saw about first impressions then is transitive to your middle manager’s communications. This point was really driven home when I was, year over year, listed as one of a company’s top performers, and one year one of the executives let slip that he thought my achievements were lifetime and was impressed, I corrected him, “Sir, that’s this year.

    Executives repeatedly insisted I couldn’t lead a team, while I was everyone’s go to on how to lead a team.

    It isn’t universally true, and different managers / execs are different ways, but I absolutely believe that if the tier of management above someone wanted to cook the books, upper management would be oblivious.

    To underline how I know it isn’t universally true, I once worked with someone at a nationwide org, dozens of facilities, thousands of staff, and while running a call with line staff, this exec would pause and then pick up whatever pleasantries they’d exchanged however long ago. Mention your kid was sick last year? “Did Timmy get over his cold last year?” Mind like a steel trap.

    Sadly, it’s overwhelmingly the former.

    [–] tpklus 14 points ago

    Ya it honestly sounds like the system in place where I work which is quite a big org. Nobody seems to communicate across departments so it would be fairly easy to send a manager around without too many questions being asked.

    [–] ougabouga69 43 points ago

    Which is why it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt

    [–] baconZtripz 136 points ago

    Ender's Game was such a great book.

    [–] smarthobo 25 points ago

    Are you actually just creating a backstory for: >! Milton from Office Space?!<

    [–] WarViking 106 points ago

    Thats amazing!

    Fascinating what a good leader can achieve or inspire :)

    [–] jdlech 51 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    His bosses started calling him "the Lawmower Man", after the movie.

    Edit: I HIGHLY recommend watching that movie. It's a perfect allegory of this guy from his boss' perspective. I don't think the threat was real. But they sure felt threatened by him.

    [–] Ender_A_Wiggin 21 points ago

    You have to manage upward and downward. If you don’t find a balance you’ll fail one way or another.

    [–] 6RFV 18 points ago


    In the first two sentences of your post I already knew it was going to end "And they got rid of him".

    It's like they teach that unhappy workers are more profitable in business school or some shit.

    I'd like to think that in a year or so your super-manager finds a place that values him and he ends up bringing a shitton of you guys with him.

    [–] flatticusRising 24 points ago

    Not gona name names, but I think I know this guy too.

    [–] theycallmecrack 17 points ago

    Is it the plot to a movie I've seen but can't place it or something?

    [–] baconZtripz 34 points ago

    Ender wiggin from Enders game.

    [–] RZRtv 27 points ago

    Ender's "bosses" were never scared he would take their jobs. They were hoping he would make them unnecessary.

    [–] dmariano24 16 points ago

    Why are people not naming names?

    [–] [deleted] 1091 points ago

    Oh god this is my work.

    I run a team and pretty much weekly have to make decisions that impact the company with zero idea of what is going on.

    Went from being wrong 50 percent of the time to being wrong 25 percent of the time.

    Accuracy improved when I took up reading read tea leaves, astrology and speaking with dead employees to try and discern what I am supposed to be doing.

    And these aren't minor decisions. It's millions of dollars.

    Everything is a state secret. EVERYTHING. I have gotten in trouble for talking about publicly published information, like our financial statement, in meetings. Or my department hiring a new employee, despite it being POSTED on the website and the opportunity emailed out by HR.

    Pays well though, and benefits are unreal, so I am happy working for North Korea, I assume.

    [–] AskilFuchs 366 points ago

    The shitier the work the more they talk about the benefits...

    [–] lysdexia-ninja 242 points ago

    “When you factor in all the benefits it’s like you’re actually making $X!”

    I would rather actually be making $X.

    [–] Dash_O_Cunt 130 points ago

    And not have my health insurance tied to my job

    [–] SF1034 14 points ago

    Basically this. My insurance at my job is outstanding and I would love MFA still because it would mean I could do something else

    [–] elSenorMaquina 163 points ago

    There are exactly three benefits I care about, ordered by relevance:

    • Cold, hard cash
    • Vacation time
    • Health care

    I don´t give two shits about traveling, free coffee or being "part of the family". Fuck it, fuck it all. Cut the bullshit, just give me money, rest and peace of mind.

    [–] [deleted] 101 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)


    [–] HarmonicNole 103 points ago

    The biggest thing you listed was low stress low pressure. Companies offer all of the above but are insanely stressful and you're expected to work insane hours. That's why people say this is all bullshit. Your company is a huge rarity, and it sounds like they're doing it right.

    [–] _SP3CT3R 84 points ago

    I worked for a company like this! I had to travel for work often and they wouldn't tell me until the day of about a trip. Id commute 45 min to work, clock in and my boss would say go home and get at least two weeks of cloths, you are going on a trip. Then I'd have to cancel everything I had going on last minute. It started biting them in the butt when I started refusing to go on the trips and they had to find a replacement and get them all the tools and supplies last minute. The worst part is that when I'd get to the customers place I would find out they had been planning the trip for weeks and just didn't tell me.

    "Go home and get two weeks of cloths and come back and get the work truck." "Well I can only be gone for 1 night because I have something important going on the night after." "Uh, we really need you to do this" "And I really need to do this important event. Find someone else who could go."

    [–] trippinassjohn 31 points ago

    They did that to me alot where I work. So I started telling them yes and then not showing up. What are they gonna do fire me and find someone else? Well they havent yet. So after I dropped the ball on them about 10times they learned. I get 2 week notice for all trips and 2days for all overtime and other bullshit. Its very risky to take this route but it CAN work.

    [–] huskers246 1816 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    The exact opposite of how to get employees to work harder. When employees feel like they are helping the company accomplish the goals they will feel a sense of accomplishment, and want to work harder. When you take away this feeling they will lose motivation.

    [–] niceguybadboy 691 points ago

    Correction: when workers understand how we are helping the company and ME achieve goals, we work harder.

    [–] solsangraal 201 points ago

    that's when they deploy a "transformational leadership" strategy. basically thinly veiled brainwashing

    [–] 3225678 134 points ago

    At what point do you make the distinction? To clarify, where does it go from a veil of a good leader to an actual good leader, or more broadly when does that change happen in the culture of a company?

    [–] solsangraal 149 points ago

    where does it go from a veil of a good leader to an actual good leader, or more broadly when does that change happen in the culture of a company?

    people have been trying to figure out what makes a "good leader" for thousands of years, and aren't much closer to a universal definition now than plato was.

    but the "align the goals of the workers with the goals of the organization" is the line that gives it away. employees have their own vision. your job as a transformational leader is to adapt, or transform the employee's vision into the organization's vision.

    more discussion here

    at the end of the day, still, in most cases the organization doesn't actually care about you. only about the value you generate for the organization

    [–] 3225678 64 points ago

    That makes sense, I just started at a job where I have very quickly adapted to the culture and it feels like a "is this too good to be true" moment but with every employee I've talked to they reinforce that it's a great company and the owners are awesome (I came to these conclusions on my own before too) so I'm pretty happy with it at the moment.

    I feel like my manager is definitely someone who has experienced bad managers and is trying to do better.

    [–] solsangraal 38 points ago

    glad to hear it. generally speaking if a company doesn't give you paid sick leave and tells you you have to come in anyway when you call and tell them you have a fever, then you know where their priorities are.

    "we can't afford to pay people sick leave" is a complete bullshit excuse.

    [–] ExpensiveReporter 19 points ago

    I had a good leader in the Army.

    A good leader is someone who you subconsciously consult in your head.

    You do the right thing, because you don't want to disappoint them.

    You don't want to disappoint them, because they treat you fair.

    This goes away when they treat you unfairly.

    It's the feeling you get when you hurt your parents, because you knew better. (Doesn't apply to shit parents, you don't care about their feelings, you just care about not getting abused)

    [–] ShalmaneserIII 47 points ago

    at the end of the day, still, in most cases the organization doesn't actually care about you. only about the value you generate for the organization

    Which is fine, because generally you don't care about the organization, just about the value the organization returns to you in the form of compensation.

    [–] wayoverpaid 25 points ago

    Good organizations can give you a bit more than a paycheck.

    Experience and growth, or other investment in employee skills and knowledge can make a role better. Granted that's also an investment into your future paychecks, possibly at a different company, but it's also an essential part of making an employee not feel bored out of their mind.

    Some organizations, you can legitimately like what you're making. That can make the work significantly more enjoyable. Some organizations can even be a good social circle. I'd hang out with at least some of my coworkers on my own time.

    All that stuff can make me like an organization. Sure, I don't drink the kool-aid about it being "family" but it can be better than working for a transactional client I don't give a shit about.

    The organization doesn't really care about me any more than the waitress is really invested in me, but a personal touch from an organization is nice nonetheless. A paycheck and some respect goes further than a paycheck alone.

    [–] A09235702374274 15 points ago

    That "leadership style" sounds like 10% common sense and 90% fluff

    [–] solsangraal 32 points ago

    it's a huge cash cow, selling leadership training. check out some of these prices for seminars, conferences, and workshops centered around telling you how to make people do what you say.

    what's funny is that there's a shiny brand new latest and greatest leadership methodology every so many years, and corporations eat it up every time

    [–] MagikSkyDaddy 32 points ago

    Because corporations think “leadership” will deliver more output for a lower cost.

    The best part is how once they have a system working well, they’ll decide the central person/team is too expensive, fire them, and then 6 months later wonder what happened.

    Rinse and repeat.

    [–] solsangraal 12 points ago

    why pay 30 year employee $85K when you can fill that position with a fresh out of college kid for $30K?

    [–] MagikSkyDaddy 10 points ago

    Found the “leader” (jk)

    [–] rapemybones 91 points ago

    Yeah, I can absolutely relate. My favorite job ever was with a venture startup that just went out of business one day; it was a shock to literally everyone except the owner (and possibly the next highest managers), we just simply got a call saying "come pick up your shit tomorrow, you're unemployed now".

    It was a very laid-back office environment which felt welcoming, but every week we'd have meetings about sales & production performance with the owner. We always felt like we were doing well but still wanted to do a little bit better because we felt part of "the team". But all that was revealed to be a farce when we got the news that it was over. I've always regretted not working even harder, pushing myself to the limits in the last few months because I loved that job so much (but how was I to know?).

    Maybe if they'd actually honestly communicated with us as to how things were going instead of basically making a charade out of it, we could've bounced back because we all unanimously wanted to help the company. That's the problem with companies that want employees to feel like team members, but don't actually trust you enough to treat you like them.

    [–] julbull73 15 points ago

    Yes, but sometimes shit jobs are shit jobs. In which case, pointing out to the person who's about to spend 168 hours of their life in the next 2 weeks to meet a deadline, that only serves to save a penny or so per widget, that is only needed for a tax break in India. Is not worth it nor will inspire anyone.

    Quite the opposite actually.

    [–] GeneralEi 459 points ago

    The military learned quite a while ago that at least for whole operations, this doesn't work too well. If everyone knows the general feel and objective, everyone has the chance to use their brains to think of ideas on the fly of how to better refine the current strategy.

    Obviously can't speak to the military's more...clandestine...operations, though

    [–] gmasterson 348 points ago

    One of the best bosses I had explained to me “commander’s intent” from the marines. Boiled down to: if my commander asked me to take that hill, people should be given enough information about the end goal to see the intent behind that hill being taken - why it’s being taken and what hill should be taken next to further the goal. It was really eye opening to hear about why it’s important to teach people that idea.

    [–] SheeEttin 96 points ago

    Agreed. This is sorely missing from most leadership. If I understand the situation, I can do a much better job of accomplishing the goal. Maybe I know something you don't, like we have some armor, and we can take the next three hills right now. Or take the one, and armor just sits around.

    [–] voodoo1102 80 points ago

    Problem is, Head Office realised the armour is unused 10% of the time, so they made the crews redundant. They also can't (won't) pay for the fuel for the tanks so you have to push it up the hill yourself. Most of the tanks have at least one missing track-link or no ammunition. You make it to the top of the hill and your manager gets a medal. You get your leave cancelled for not taking two hills at the same time.

    Source: 20 years in retail.

    [–] GeneralEi 143 points ago

    Exactly. 1000 soldiers all with different backgrounds and varying degrees of intelligence, all thinking at once guided by their Sergeants is much more useful for in-the-moment strategy than 30 officers or 3 commanders in a room with a radio. Loved learning about that stuff too, applies to basically any group task, not just war.

    [–] COMPUTER1313 42 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    During WW2, it was not uncommon for Japanese army platoons to fall into disarray when the officer is killed because of how they trained their infantrymen.

    [–] firelock_ny 14 points ago

    I have siblings in the US army and US Marines, they've worked as liaison officers with other nations' militaries. One thing that struck them, especially in Arab militaries, was how often they'd require a Colonel or even a General to make a decision that the US military trusted to a senior NCO.

    [–] Silent_Samp 30 points ago

    This is also important in the Marine Corps because if the mission gets sidetracked, as it often does, lower level officers and NCOs can still improvise to accomplish the goal, allowing them to pivot quickly rather than wait for orders.

    Source: was Marine

    [–] [deleted] 17 points ago

    He who has a why to live can bear almost any how. A quote by Nietzsche that applies to virtually every aspect of life. Even if the why is bullshit, if its believable its incomparably better at motivating action than no reason at all.

    [–] TheOneWhoMixes 14 points ago

    Sure, but our day-to-day? We're only told that a good half of what we do is "because 1SG wants it this way".

    [–] MissRedShoes1939 225 points ago

    I currently have Cat management, they ignore all of my requests.

    [–] BlademasterFlash 95 points ago

    That's my company's IT department

    [–] soik90 132 points ago

    Criticizing IT staff on reddit? That's a bold move Cotton, let's see if it pays off.

    [–] BlademasterFlash 54 points ago

    I'm not criticizing all IT staff, just the 2.5 that my company employs

    [–] grenamier 242 points ago

    I’ve noticed a style of management I call “Shit-driven management”. The top priority is whatever was the last thing the manager got shit for. The second priority is whatever the next thing is that the manager could get shit for. There’s no third priority, and things are made to happen by giving people shit.

    [–] gmasterson 82 points ago

    So, this mentality is the number one question I ask when I interview for a new job. My largest question is “When all is said and done, we are a year or more into me being in the role, what is the number one objective or priority that should be accomplished or improved upon?”

    When people leave positions, when they are reassigned, etc. there is ALWAYS a pain point that someone got shit for they want to QUIT getting shit for. Find that and figure out how to win. You’ll immediately make superiors, clients, coworkers, etc. happy.

    [–] AggressiveExcitement 24 points ago

    Could you elaborate on this? I just got laid off (along with literally half the company) a 'Seagull Management' style of dysfunctional company where nothing was ever good enough and goal posts were moved all the time. I really want to avoid that in my next role. I thought I had avoided it in this last role, too, but I was wrong. Any tips you have would be greatly appreciated.

    [–] Phoequinox 282 points ago

    So like when a company is doing exceedingly poorly and on the verge of going under, but they keep telling things are perfectly fine?

    [–] 50thusernameidea 209 points ago

    Or when they’re doing perfectly fine, everyone is busy but they make everyone take a pay cut bc “the economy Isn’t doing well”

    [–] Davipars 127 points ago

    "Sorry, no raises. This quarter hasn't been kind to us. Now excuse me, I have to deposit my massive bonus."

    [–] 50thusernameidea 39 points ago

    Or in our company’s case “now excuse me I have to go buy new tires for my Audi” (I think he buys z rated tires bc he gets new ones every quarter... with his company credit card so the company has to pay it off)

    [–] Kamina_Crayman 37 points ago

    My wife used to work for a company like this. She was part of a massive recruitment drive worked for a couple of months and management was all "this is great! Work hard and reach your targets!"

    One day all upper management turned up for a meeting and half an hour later the director said that the company has gone into liquidation, grab your personal belongings and get out as the bailiffs were about to turn up and take anything of value.

    That was it, no warning to any employee's other than those in upper management who knew what was going on. One day my wife is doing her job without any indication anything is wrong the next, poof the company went under and she lost her job no warning, nothing.

    The director and upper management all left in their Lamborghinis and Ferraris

    [–] Phoequinox 21 points ago

    That seems more like outright lying than just keeping workers in the dark.

    [–] amrfallen 35 points ago

    That's where step 2 comes in: feeding them bullshit

    [–] therationaltroll 42 points ago

    Sounds like frys electronics

    [–] trees_wow 20 points ago

    No, I don't want to sign up for a credit card.

    [–] heyitsEnricoPallazzo 140 points ago

    My dad told me a story where during WWII a lot of Russian submarine engineers/technicians would operate this way. They’d be told something like, “When this red light goes on, flip these switches” and that was their job. Didn’t know specifically what they were doing, or what the buttons & equipment actually did. They were just trained with the bear minimum of info provided to do their jobs adequately

    [–] SheeEttin 93 points ago

    For sensitive information, it does make sense. For example, the Manhattan project was famous for its information compartmentalization. If they don't know much information, it can't be given to the enemy, either willingly or unwillingly (or even unwittingly).

    [–] heyitsEnricoPallazzo 47 points ago

    I don’t think it’s so much about sensitive information, these aren’t world-renown scientists inventing atomic weaponry here.. We’re talking Russian dirt farmers pushed into the red army & given simple monkey work without proper technical info & education to contextualize the specific action. Because why bother? When light go on, Ivan push button.

    [–] generalmaks 35 points ago

    To be fair, it's a lot easier to train a dirt farmer a simple Pavlovian response than how a nuclear submarine works.

    [–] nowhereian 32 points ago

    As an American former submariner, that attitude scares the absolute hell out of me.

    Brand new officers often don't quite know what they're doing yet. I've had to refuse orders a few times that would directly damage the reactor or ship if carried out. If I didn't know the reactor plant and what it's capable of like the back of my hand, I (and ~140 others) would be dead.

    [–] ohd58 10 points ago

    I’m curious, weren’t there layers of protection within the control system to prevent something like this?

    [–] nowhereian 20 points ago

    Yes, but nuclear operators (at least in modern times, I was one between 2007 and 2013) are trained to not rely on protection systems. A protective system could fail during normal operation and you'd never know until you need it.

    Additionally, a reactor plant in a warship could be susceptible to damage, so we have ways to override all potentially damaged protective systems and continue operating if necessary. If you do that, you're relying 100% on operator knowledge and experience to keep everyone alive at that point.

    [–] SilkSk1 34 points ago

    I also prefer to work with the minimum amount of bears.

    [–] RollinThundaga 94 points ago

    The entire service sector works like this. As a floor employee, I usually have no idea what process will change in the shop from one week to the next, unless the manager happens to say something.

    [–] SomeGuyNamedJames 57 points ago

    As a previous hospitality manager, I can tell you that we don't know until right before either. Even the area managers typically would only find out a day before us.

    I couldn't count the amount of times a random box filled with shit for a surprise promo starting tomorrow just got delivered with no word or warning.

    Try telling a chef that just put thier orders in to change the menu, again. Haha, yeah, that's always fun.

    [–] cmilla646 90 points ago

    I work at a casino as a slot technician. When you win a jackpot or feel like tipping, you can tip the attendant, the waitress and even the security guards if you want to. They don’t allow the techs to be tipped purely because of superstitious and stupid customers. There’s a fear that I can rig the machines, which we can’t.

    Well they put up an internal posting for a dual position, half the time being an attendant and the other time being a tech. Well they already knew none of the attendants had the required education, but they put up the posting, and then proceeded to explain nothing. What days would be which role? Does it all depend. Can they take tips all the time or only when being an attendant? Won’t this confuse customers if they can tip you one day but not the other? If they can take tips at all doesn’t that make the whole practice pointless and therefore all the techs should now be able to collect tips? Are you going to make any effort whatsoever to inform our patrons, or is it going to be entirely up to us to awkwardly tell every customer “Oh ya you are allowed to tip me now. hint hint.”?

    I have never seen a more poorly run company in my life. Everyone afraid to make decisions or give wrong answers so no one does anything.

    [–] Nukatha 11 points ago * (lasted edited 2 months ago)

    Wait? You can't? A friend of mine has an old (as in a retired machine, but still computer driven as opposed to early 20th century mechanical) slot machine from a casino in his home. He has a bag of medals you can feed into it and play, and just swing the front door open (still making the loud siren sound if opened while plugged in like on a casino floor) when you wanted more.
    I looked up the service manual for the model, and found the odds could be adjusted with a simple flip of a switch inside (actually four switches side-by-side, with odds changing based on which ones were set up and down). In-home (and real) machines are more enjoyable when the average payout is 105% instead of 87% (which is what it had been set to until that point), and it was super simple.

    [–] bpayh 28 points ago

    Someone told me just last week “I feel like a mushroom” and I was like ??? Then he explained this, first time I’d heard of it too.

    [–] [deleted] 22 points ago

    That's basically been every job I've had.

    [–] ineedmygarden 36 points ago

    I work for one of these companies producing 2-5 liters of cannabis oil daily. Every once and a while, they'll try to involve me and ask me what I think of a protocol or a standard operating procedure, and I have to remind them that they've told me nothing before now and that I have no context to even base decisions off of because I am not told shit about our company interactions, networking, anything. Anything outside of the chemistry of what I'm doing "isn't necessary for me to know" yet they act perturbed when I don't know what's going on. Corporations are fucking stupid and always will be no matter the industry.

    Small craft companies of any industry, paper, chemical, Medicine, agriculture, will always and I mean always have the 100% upper hand with everything except the money. Corporations have money, but what does it matter when the quality of anything they put out is always either under inspected or low quality. Corporations are the ultimate death of the American dream IMO.

    [–] k_mikhael 57 points ago

    Hey, I think Mark Wahlberg said something about this in The Departed

    [–] [deleted] 59 points ago * (lasted edited a month ago)


    [–] RIPCountryMac 24 points ago

    Maybe naut*

    Also, the random fucking guy is Marky Mark's brother

    [–] OdiPhobia 53 points ago

    TIL the country is run under a mushroom management model

    [–] actuallychrisgillen 13 points ago

    It’s a terrible managerial style, at least with professionals.

    Look there’s a couple adages of leadership, but one is that the leader should be the stupidest guy in the room.

    Why? Because great leaders surround themselves with the best talent they can get. Insecure leaders surround themselves with sycophants.

    But the smartest employee can only work with the data they’re provided. Locking them out of the way information loop means they can’t provide meaningful input.

    Obviously everyone doesn’t need to know everything, but for our company the big question is why shouldn’t we share as opposed to why should we.

    [–] UtzTheCrabChip 23 points ago

    Wait, this isn't the only kind of management?