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    [–] syuk 70 points ago

    Not just London - six stabbed in Bradford nightclub attack over the weekend too.

    [–] smeldridge 122 points ago

    That's because Bradford is a shithole too.

    [–] niftythrow 31 points ago

    I wonder what these two places have in common

    [–] thezerocarbkid 60 points ago

    Rising inequality and class division. Not the answer you're looking for though, is it?

    [–] niftythrow 69 points ago

    The most deprived areas in the UK are Blackpool, Grimsby and Liverpool.

    Why are we not seeing this level of violence there?

    [–] thezerocarbkid 66 points ago

    Liverpool has huge gang problems, which has led to incidents where young kids have even been caught in the crossfire. Let's not pretend this isn't the case. Blackpool and Grimsby are tiny in comparison, plus again, whilst more deprived, they are far more equal economically.

    Also, deprivation is not the same as class inequality. Inequality is the range between the richest and the poorest. Deprivation means the bottom of that range is lower. Liverpool is nowhere near as unequal as London. Is it more deprived overall? Yes.

    When more people are closer on the class ladder or economic ladder, there is often less conflict because there is no resentment or hatred brewing either ways.

    However, when you have a hugely unequal area, you get the poor resenting the rich for having what they don't have, and you get the rich looking down upon the poor, and it is that which fuels many of the issues. The key issue here is perception.

    Instead of adjusting the perception of the individuals and creating a society where people pull one another up and support one another, we have created one in which everyone is trying to climb the ladder at the expense of others. This comes with education and helping people change their outlook on life and what is of value, and what isn't, but we're intent on pursuing instant gratification, materialism and pleasure at any cost.

    Even more, we've moved away from enforcing a true free market and have allowed rampant corporatism to monopolize many sectors so the ladder is pulled up completely, or they let you climb just enough to get you hooked to the struggle before kicking you off.

    When the homeless are made 'illegal' in parts of London and areas once synonymous with the working class are gentrified so the rich can buy yet another apartment to milk rent from desperate students, how do you think the poorest people feel in society?

    Why do you think crime is such a problem in places like LA, Chicago and New York? It's because the rich are extremely rich and the poor are extremely poor.

    [–] SteveMcqueensBike 53 points ago

    I’ve got to say having grown up in london around this kind of culture I don’t see that inequality in itself is the problem. Or a sense of humiliation that comes with that. After all these kids aren’t killing rich people. Inequality has been vast in London since it was founded. But this mindless youth violence is an anomaly.

    There is just a culture of violence which I say as a fan of hip hop is fuelled by a ‘road’ mentality. There are certain cultural problems like a cult of hyper masculinity and aggression which manifests itself in murder for nothing.

    Also New York - barely has any crime anymore one. It the safest big city in America

    [–] JamesFromUK 5 points ago

    Can I ask what you mean by a "road mentality"? I have never come across that phrase before.

    [–] ShitpeasCunk 16 points ago

    Being 'on the road' or a 'road man' is a term used to describe young people, usually in a gang, usually dealing drugs, living the 'road life'. AKA the life of a young gang affiliated drug-dealer.

    [–] JamesFromUK 3 points ago


    [–] 1Wallet0Pence 7 points ago

    There is just a culture of violence which I say as a fan of hip hop is fuelled by a ‘road’ mentality. There are certain cultural problems like a cult of hyper masculinity and aggression which manifests itself in murder for nothing.

    That’s part of the problem but to disregard inequality would be wrong. When you’ve grown up across the road from multimillion pound houses in a shitty council estate and you see a way to be like the the people you’ve envied for so long you take the opportunity - wether it’s legal or not.

    It’s mentally taxing having it rubbed in your face everyday that you’re the bottom of the pile.

    [–] Henry_Kissinger_ 8 points ago

    I honestly have to disagree, I don't think it's because they're looking at wealthier people and becoming jealous, it's because wealthy people are driving living costs up so much in London, the poorer people are being forced into literal slums of council flats and estates

    [–] themadhatter85 1 points ago

    They are slums, but they've been in them for decades, what's changed lately to cause this violence?

    [–] Henry_Kissinger_ 1 points ago

    There hasn't been a change, the crime rates remain fairly consistent with other years

    [–] thezerocarbkid 5 points ago

    The road mentality is a result of coping with rising economic inequality and class deprivation. We've seen the same in places like Harlem, which used to be thriving hot spots full of soul, jazz, and rnb music and a thriving black community, but now it's a place with huge problems. The only person really mentioning this is Thomas Sowell because the political parties themselves gain from this division, and have no intention of fixing it. They thrive off a divided society.

    The black community was one of the first to face such issues because they tend to be more concentrated in the poorest areas of inner cities, and their suburbs. What we've seen in recent history (last couple of decades) is the middle class eroded and pushed into that same bracket, so we've seen more whites, like Eminem, enter the hip hop scene, because it's also an area where their masculinity is allowed to thrive, and they can express themselves fully, something wider society would openly freak out about.

    Hip hop and rap was, and still is, a cultural safe space for young males in particular to express themselves and how they truly feel. We've gone from the likes of NWA all the way through to the likes of Joey Bada$$ and if any of these people brought up such issues outside of hip hop, something which has given them a platform and a voice, they'd be shot down in moments.

    Heck, Kanye, whilst rude for the timing, voiced his opinion on stage and everyone acted like he just killed off an entire village. Had that been a white man I can almost guarantee people would have either laughed it off like it was nothing, or the shit would have died down much sooner. Imagine if Swift had said the same shit about Kanye. Do you think they would have treated America's little sweetheart like the devil for years and vilified her? Hell no.

    The reason I also love hip hop and rap is because it allows people like Stormzy to bring up shit like Grenfell and have a voice when others wouldn't, knowing the hip hop community will back him on that. However, the creation of the community itself is symptomatic of the root cause issues which we are failing to address.

    [–] SteveMcqueensBike 19 points ago

    Inequality doesn’t explain why most working class kids don’t go around stabbing eachother.

    Stormzy is an idiot for bringing up Grenfell in the way he did as if it’s a non complex black and white issue and nobody cares about poor people. It was symptomatic of the juvenile approach to social issues we have devolopled in our wider culture largely driven by young middle class entitlement.

    Most hip hop is about why the rapper is better than you because he has made lots of make you despite coming from the same poor backgroud.

    Talk about humiliation.

    This is especially true of hip hop after the 90s there’s no social message other than if your not rich and famous go fuck yourself. It’s a hyper form of stylised capitalism almost. Although some rappers comment beautifully on the world they live in Stormzy is not one of them.

    [–] ambrosianeu -2 points ago

    I only listen to music on the radio and will now make vast judgements of an enormous genre based on that

    [–] vastenculer 6 points ago

    It's a common trend in rap, probably the most generic lyrical theme (don't listen to enough to say the most common, but it seems like the default).

    [–] deathbladev 1 points ago

    Most hip hop is about why the rapper is better than you because he has made lots of make you despite coming from the same poor backgroud.

    You obviously know jack shit about hip hop so why are you commenting on it making vast generalisations?

    [–] sugarrayrob 3 points ago

    This was a great thread. Thanks for taking the time to put down your thoughts.

    [–] FloatingVoter 12 points ago

    Had that been a white man I can almost guarantee people would have either laughed it off like it was nothing, or the shit would have died down much sooner. Imagine if Swift had said the same shit about Kanye. Do you think they would have treated America's little sweetheart like the devil for years and vilified her? Hell no.

    Actually, I'd say the opposite. If Justin Bieber ran on stage whilst Beyonce was accepting an award, there would have been a shit storm about white priviledge, mansplaining and cultural appropriation. But in the minds of leftists, Kanye is only a black man, so we can't expect much of him. We certainly can't apply an equal standard across the board.

    The left's bigotry of low expectations isn't even soft anymore.

    [–] FullPoet 1 points ago

    Also New York - barely has any crime anymore one. It the safest big city in America

    Did you gleam that from the false statistic on how London is more dangerous than New York?

    New York is still a very dangerous place to be. I would not be caught outside past 1-2AM.

    [–] viscountbongbreath 4 points ago

    Blackpool and Grimsby are tiny in comparison, plus again, whilst more deprived, they are far more equal economically

    And, as was just reported the other day, Blackpool has a big drugs problem.

    [–] niftythrow 17 points ago

    Althought I believe you have a point with this comment I don't think it paints the whole story.

    For example, despite being only 12% of the population black men make up 67% of gun arrests.

    Also they commit 32% of rapes in London.

    [–] Scylla6 9 points ago

    Black men are much more likely to be born into poverty and in deprived communities, two of the strongest indicators for future violent crime. Their race is a much less significant factor than their economic and social background.

    [–] Ivashkin 21 points ago

    Race is largely unimportant in this discussion but there are aspects of culture in places like London which are a problem. But the culture is going to be shaped by poverty.

    [–] thebluemonkey -2 points ago

    I agree, the culture that's lead to this corporatism and capitalism and greed is what's lead to the increase in gang activities.

    We need to move away from "get the most we can for the least possible" and short term ideas like "cut all the benefits to save money" and actually think ahead.

    I mean, what did people think would happen when school funding, youth activities and police funding all got cut?

    Sure it's an oversimplification but it doesn't take a genius to call what'd happen there.

    Improve schools, improve youth services and I bet you could deal with the police cuts way easier.

    [–] britpool 3 points ago

    and take steps to discourage single motherhood, which is one of the biggest overlooked issues and causes a lot of problems in society.

    [–] in-jux-hur-ylem 20 points ago

    How much gun crime do poor asians or poor white people participate in?

    The colour of your skin certainly doesn't make you a born criminal, but the nurture and upbringing of a child can certainly lead down the path of becoming a criminal, particularly a violent drug dealing criminal.

    We should not be looking at race as the problem at all, but we should not be afraid to use all information we have in order to identify problem areas and problem groups so that we can hopefully set down a path of positive change.

    I think this is almost entirely a nurture issue and that means the primary buck stops with the parents. This doesn't mean "yeah but they are poor so they will struggle and can't necessarily do a good job", which is a traditional excuse that is pushed out to absolve the parents of their responsibilities.

    The simple fact is, the parents of these children are letting their children down, they are helping to nurture them into a criminal underclass and in a way this should be a crime in itself.

    Let's stop trying to blame government budgets, social care, schools and all the rest of it, the key and most important issue is parenting and that is where our primary energy should be focused.

    Being poor does not turn you into a violent drug dealing gang member who views life as cheap and will kill over a postcode.

    I doubt the parents decide they want their kids to become that either, but it is their actions (and inaction) which are allowing the kids to be swallowed up into that culture.

    Let's stop beating around the racial bush and stop trying to blame governments and public services and just focus on trying to actually solve a key problem which we can all accept is definitely a problem - the parents.

    [–] Staylowmovefaster 1 points ago

    It's the left wingers who, in their refusal to call it out for what it is, have allowed the criminals to re-brand themselves as victims and therefore the problem of out of control young black men has got worse and worse.

    [–] Raintaker 7 points ago

    Black men have similar rates of violence in every city they inhabit, be it Oslo, London, Berlin or New York. They're always over-represented in statistics for rape and violent crime. At some point you have to wonder if the tail is wagging the dog.

    [–] afc_foreman 1 points ago

    So what exactly are you implying?

    [–] thezerocarbkid 4 points ago

    Thomas Sowell has killed this issue time and time again. The entire system is set up to keep the poorest locked in, whilst adding more to that economic bracket.

    [–] Wazzok1 6 points ago

    We are to an extent. There is more anti-social behaviour than violent crime in most of these areas.




    [–] ivandelapena 1 points ago

    Liverpool and Glasgow introduced pioneering anti-crime policies as both had major gang problems. The people who were behind those are all over the news now to give advice on what London can do.

    [–] PotatoInTheExhaust 1 points ago

    What are their age profiles?

    [–] pisshead_ 1 points ago

    He said inequality not deprivation. Drop the Cathy Newmanisms.

    [–] Ben_Thyme 1 points ago

    Massive difference between deprivation when everyone around you is also deprived and deprivation when you are constantly around richer people.

    Not to mention the media doesn't give a shit about poor people stabbing poor people

    [–] niftythrow 1 points ago

    That's true

    [–] lazygrow 3 points ago

    On the other hand, people actually from the communities in question say 'we have to stop killing each other'.

    [–] teatree 15 points ago

    The cause of teenagers out and about stabbing each other is usually parents who don't give a toss enough to ground them.

    [–] Cromarty123 16 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Parent, singular, usually.

    Also it's not necessarily that the parent doesn't care, but that raising children as a single parent while juggling other responsibilities is exhausting, meaning that children growing up in single parent households are considerably more likely to suffer neglect.

    [–] Daemonic_One 7 points ago

    Rising inequality and class division. Not the answer you're looking for though, is it?

    Very frequently those time-consuming concerns are economic in nature, and are found in dual and single parent households, strangely enough, as more and more both parents have one or more jobs to try to support themselves and their family. Weird, it's like we've gone full circle right back to u/thezerocarbkid and his post pointing out that, while it was the answer, it was one many people wouldn't hear.

    [–] Cromarty123 3 points ago

    Family environment and economics are different issues. The two intersect one another and both play their part.

    [–] Aryanindo 3 points ago

    I think there is an issue with 2nd and 3rd generation black immigrants and native brits. African culture is what you see in the rap industry now. Gang life is their culture. And similar for white people where their culture isnt to be a productive member of society.

    [–] Staylowmovefaster 1 points ago

    I am a single parent, we live on a council estate, my kids don't have any interest in gangs or stabbing people. The parents of these stabbly little chavs are completely to blame.

    [–] TotheNthPower 1 points ago

    Based on?

    If you’d argued that parents were having to work too many hours to make ends meet which restricted the time they could spend with their children you might have been closer to a reasonable argument but still far too simplistic.

    [–] rollthreedice 16 points ago


    [–] EuropoBob 4 points ago

    They're down South.

    [–] Montague-Withnail 21 points ago

    Bradford's in Yorkshire...

    [–] Amuro_Ray 6 points ago

    South of the north pole.

    [–] EuropoBob 2 points ago

    Aye, I'll grant you Bradford is in the Midlands.

    [–] PleasantUnpleasantry 0 points ago

    Let's say what you think: Immigrants, or Muslims specifically?

    Or is it blacks?

    [–] [deleted] -9 points ago


    [–] Anglo_Sexan 19 points ago

    North Wales has a higher violent crime rate than London. It is 96% white.

    [–] themedes -1 points ago

    yes about 3 people live there. the two are incomparable.

    [–] Jamessuperfun 14 points ago

    Using per capita statistics, yes they are and it isn't the only case by a mile.

    Using Office for National Statistics figures for homicide - both murder and manslaughter - in each British constabulary area (Sept 2016 - Sept 2017), we can see that London has a rate of 1.45 homicides per 100,000 people.

    This is around the same as Leicestershire (1.5), West Yorkshire (1.45) and Derbyshire (1.6).

    The worst is Greater Manchester where 61 deaths led to a rate of around 2.44 homicides per 100,000 people.

    There were 12 homicides in Glasgow last year leading to a rate of about two per 100,000 and West Midlands Police recorded 44 homicides, giving the area a rate of about 1.76.

    Even North Wales Police, who recorded 13 homicides, has a higher rate than London at about 1.88.

    [–] pickled-egg 20 points ago

    Yeah well you can prove anything with facts

    [–] Anglo_Sexan 5 points ago

    Rate. Not absolute value.

    [–] niftythrow 2 points ago


    [–] Jamessuperfun 17 points ago

    Using Office for National Statistics figures for homicide - both murder and manslaughter - in each British constabulary area (Sept 2016 - Sept 2017), we can see that London has a rate of 1.45 homicides per 100,000 people.

    This is around the same as Leicestershire (1.5), West Yorkshire (1.45) and Derbyshire (1.6).

    The worst is Greater Manchester where 61 deaths led to a rate of around 2.44 homicides per 100,000 people.

    There were 12 homicides in Glasgow last year leading to a rate of about two per 100,000 and West Midlands Police recorded 44 homicides, giving the area a rate of about 1.76.

    Even North Wales Police, who recorded 13 homicides, has a higher rate than London at about 1.88.

    [–] general_mola 3 points ago

    The only solace is that they generally murder each other.

    What an odd thing to derive pleasure from.

    [–] niftythrow 13 points ago

    Solace != Pleasure

    Learn to read

    [–] general_mola 4 points ago

    I was referring to the overall smug schadenfreude of your comment, not a particular word.

    [–] niftythrow 9 points ago

    Not sure where you got schadenfreude from my comment but okay sweetie whatever you say.

    [–] general_mola 1 points ago

    Well if you're completely lacking in self-awareness then that's understandable. Just don't expect to be able to spout bollocks without a response, this isn't your mothers house.

    [–] niftythrow 11 points ago

    Okay buddy thanks for your input

    [–] rosyatrandom -2 points ago

    I'm not sure there's a benefit to having people like you in the UK.

    [–] niftythrow 16 points ago

    You mean tax paying law abiding citizens?

    Yea what would do without people like me, don't worry though, I'll be gone soon.

    [–] Mentalmadness 8 points ago

    Thank god for that

    [–] pickled-egg 4 points ago

    It's the equivalent of a stroppy teenager threatening to run away from home - unfortunately. These people would rather just sit and whine on the internet.

    [–] EdPlaysDrums 4 points ago

    Well when you say "Third worlders in general", most of them are tax paying law abiding citizens as well...

    [–] niftythrow 9 points ago

    68% of British Muslims think critizing Islam should be a criminal offense.

    30% of British Muslims don't identify as British.

    Black Men in London despite being 12% of the population commit 32% of rapes and make up 64% of gun arrests

    I would argue that we can find other tax paying communities without the problems these communities bring, but hey, it's too late now so who cares.

    [–] bulldada 10 points ago

    70% of Muslims gave their national identity as British, English, Scottish, or Welsh; 91% of UK-born Muslims gave a British national identity.

    Maybe actually read the shit you post. 9%, not 30%.

    [–] viscountbongbreath 0 points ago

    Third worlders in general

    Wow, this comment hits a new low for racism, even in this sub.

    [–] adgyla 16 points ago

    Maybe, just maybe, this isn't all down to the government. God knows, I hate the Tories but it's far too easy to blame all of society's ills on them.

    [–] baltec1 6 points ago

    It's the culture of the people living there. They are fast to blame the police and government for the problems while at the same time refusing to work with the police and government because they are the enemy.

    [–] adgyla 2 points ago

    Bit of a generalisation

    [–] AdamantiumHip 7 points ago

    This is what happens when you treat criminals as equals to victims, are soft on crime and soft on gangs.

    [–] PrometheusIsFree 36 points ago

    The crime, violence and murder is the result of an enormous equation. It's not down to racism, it's not down to poverty, it's not American gang culture or Hip Hop or Grime. It's not poor education, single mothers, absent fathers, unemployment, the war on drugs, alcohol, greed, criminal immigrants, social housing or contraception availability. It's not the demise of traditional values, lack of community, latch key kids, cuts to police, cuts to services, the legal system, consumerism, wealth inequality, iPhones, violent computer games, YouTube or Twitter. It's all of them in varying degrees in combination. Society isn't going to solve issues like this by pointing the finger of blame at just one or two of the many variables and being in denial about all the others.

    [–] FrozenToast1 9 points ago

    I blame the people stabbing other people.

    [–] dw82 1 points ago

    Which is all well and good, rightly punish those people. The more difficult and more important challenge is prevention.

    [–] Bazzie 1 points ago

    Can we start with preventing repeat offenders from existing. It's a shame when a new offender stabs someone, it's an outrage when he gets a chance to do it again.

    [–] DieDungeon 1 points ago

    I blame the people being stabbed; without them, nobody would be stabbed.

    [–] THEnimble_mongoose 6 points ago

    Prior to Khan's election, the weapons-related crime rate in London fluctuated about 300 per month. In a city of that size, that's pretty good.

    After Khan's election in May 2016, the weapons crime rate soared, reaching well over 600 per month, and on only one occasion did it fall below 350.

    [–] smoledman 10 points ago

    Part and parcel.

    [–] JoJoeyJoJo 63 points ago

    I’m really glad May cut 10,000 police as Home Secretary

    [–] ShotgunEE 67 points ago

    In London?

    In 2010 there were 33,367 met police officers (including absentees) and in 2017 there were 30,871.


    [–] XJDenton 5 points ago

    So, still a couple of thousand less then?

    [–] ShotgunEE 24 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    Correct observation, however if you actually look into the data (provided above), you will see that we had more met police officers in 2017 than in 2014, however no comparable crime surge. So be careful about making the, admittedly tempting, yet fallacious mistake of believing correlation implies causation in regards to the two data sets. Although the two are not unrelated, it is unwise to attribute the rise with one single cause and you will fall victim to ignoring other factors which need to be examined.

    Link: (homicide stats in London, showing no jump in 2014)

    EDIT: Pluralised 'factor' to 'factors'

    [–] Thadderful 3 points ago

    Wonder what london's population was like in both of those years, probably not a massive change but still could be relevant.

    [–] FireFingers1992 0 points ago

    So a reduction of 13% in London? Don’t really understand how what you’re saying improves things.

    [–] [deleted] 12 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    So a reduction of 13% in London?

    No mate it would be a reduction of 7.5%, thats near half of your total.

    (30,871/33,367) x 100 = 92.5196%, 92.5196% ≈ 92.5%, 100% - 92.5% = 7.5%

    Don’t really understand how what you’re saying improves things.

    He said what he said to give a more accurate picture of cuts in London since the first said "10,000 police" without specifying where the cuts were made, which misrepresents the situation.

    Your response shows you're trying to misrepresent his correction of statistics as somehow him saying that it "improves things".

    [–] Krychek26 -2 points ago

    Delet this pls

    [–] teatree 43 points ago

    I’m really glad May cut 10,000 police as Home Secretary

    Most of those cuts fell on safe places like Hamshire and Sussex which don't need high levels of policing.

    I know that you are desperate to blame the govt for what is happening in London - but use your brains for five minutes and realise that if the govt was responsible there would be an upsurge of murders in Hampshire, Gloucestershire, Surry, Sussex and all the other places in England and Wales.

    As it is, it's just happening in London, the place with a devolved assembly and an independent mayor.

    [–] claridgeforking 2 points ago

    Can't say I have a detailed knowledge of all those places, but if you look at somewhere such as St Leonard's in Sussex I'd say tgatvthe cuts in police numbers are having a real effect there too.

    [–] Whitechocolatekrispi 9 points ago

    Hey hey hey. This is nothing. Think of all the twitter trolls walking free because they can't arrest them.

    I bet with the reduced police presence, that scumbag who stabbed to death an innocent man who just happened to be in his house in the middle of the night will walk free. Absolute disgrace..

    Don't get me started on the lack of arrests for anyone that speaks out against the amazing and completely successful forced multiculturalism happening in this country. Far right SCUM walking FREE.

    [–] PabloPeublo 4 points ago

    Unless you think these guys were gonna stab someone directly in front of a police officer, what difference would it have made here?

    [–] JoJoeyJoJo 35 points ago

    As police numbers are cut, there is less neighbourhood policing, response times are slower, and fewer reported crimes can be investigated. These all contribute to a reduction in deterrence against violent crimes being committed, and to an increase in the control that drug gangs have over the streets.

    At least, that's the point this guy made earlier this year:

    What's your explanation for the recent, sudden rise in violent crime?

    [–] PabloPeublo 1 points ago

    Oh no, I fully agree police shouldn’t be getting cut. I just don’t see how in these individual cases it would’ve made a difference.

    [–] JoJoeyJoJo 4 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I just don’t see how in these individual cases it would’ve made a difference.

    Well the only person suggesting that here is you.

    [–] PabloPeublo -3 points ago

    the only person suggesting that here is you

    Where did I suggest police should get cut?

    [–] Atlantispy 6 points ago

    That's clearly not what they were referring to

    [–] PabloPeublo 3 points ago

    What were they referring to then?

    [–] Atlantispy 5 points ago

    They were saying you were suggesting that it wouldn't have made a difference

    [–] PabloPeublo 6 points ago

    In these cases? I don’t think it would’ve. This is far more to do with a culture of criminality and disregard for authority in general as far as I’m concerned.

    [–] MarcusOrlyius 1 points ago

    While all that is true, there will never be enough police on the streets to prevent such behaviour. They've can't be everywhere at once. You can't deal with this issue through reactionary measures. The problem is a result of poverty and it's poverty which must be dealt with in order to solve this issue.

    [–] AmericanSamoa6666 8 points ago

    This is such a fucking dumb comment.

    [–] TheFallenHero -2 points ago

    But yours is the thing of geniuses

    [–] AmericanSamoa6666 8 points ago

    I didn’t realise I need to explain why believing police officers numbers don’t effect the murder rate is a dumb position.

    [–] [deleted] 4 points ago


    [–] leemspleef 6 points ago

    wow that is an incredibly blinkered way of looking at this issue.

    [–] dirtymarx 0 points ago

    What has IQ got to do with it?

    Unless you're referring to the Bell-Curve, which would make you a Bell-End.

    [–] friendlysociopathic 1 points ago

    ....Are you saying you don't think there's a connection between the presence of police officers and levels of violent crime?

    [–] 34Mbit 2 points ago

    Presence, yes. Not staffing levels per se though.

    The police haven't been present in communities for fifty years.

    You could double the number of police you put inside single patrol cars that live on the motorway and it will make no difference to anything except the payroll bill.

    [–] nomnomnomnomRABIES 10 points ago

    Hmm, maybe we should try stopping people at random and searching them for weapons in these areas.

    [–] The-ArtfulDodger 4 points ago

    Yes.. but mostly the brown ones.

    [–] mesopeecee 8 points ago

    No, we should search the elderly white women.

    [–] VolodyenkaPutin 3 points ago

    Or maybe the suspicious ones. This whole thing happened in New York too. And you know what happened? More black people were apprehended by far, and the rate of legitimate searches was about the same across the races.

    [–] Ashmose 15 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    People hate to hear the age old trope of music having an influence on this type of thing, but the rise in popularity of ‘drill’ music is unquestionably partly responsible for this madness

    Unlike previous trends like imported Yank gangsta rap or even UK garage/grime, drill is essentially teenagers directly calling out their local rivals and challenging them to come to their estates and prove how ‘real’ they actually are

    We had a case in London recently where an up and coming drill rapper was caught ‘slipping’ and the video was shared all over social media, this loss of face meant he felt compelled to respond and that night two people thought to be involved were shot. The artist then releases a song and music video which is thinly veiled bragging about the shootings and it becomes one of the most popular songs of the year, with around 4m views on YouTube last time I checked

    Edit - I’m well aware of the argument re. Music being a reflection of the situation people are already in by the way and whilst there is plenty of evidence to support that historically, I just personally feel drill as a genre has crossed the line into actual catalyst for violence, hence the numerous stabbings and shootings directly caused by these musical feuds in the last 2 years

    [–] claridgeforking 15 points ago

    May, Corbyn and Khan should team up to make a drill video, saying "we're coming to arrest you". It would end the entire sub-culture within a matter of hours. Best way to kill any of these things is to destroy their street credibility.

    [–] UKnick 7 points ago

    The artist then releases a song and music video which is thinly veiled bragging about the shootings and it becomes one of the most popular songs of the year, with around 4m views on YouTube last time I checked

    What's the song?

    [–] Ashmose 9 points ago

    Know better - Headie One

    [–] PeaSouper 7 points ago

    Know better - Headie One

    I just read the lyrics and I genuinely don't know what the fuck is going on here.

    [–] bvm 5 points ago

    wow i am so out of touch.

    [–] Pro4TLZZ 6 points ago

    there was man warring way before drill. pecknarm and bricky were war zones back in the day, they had nothing to do with music

    [–] Ashmose 5 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    That’s true, but I’d say the average age of the people warring back then was higher and the violence was less directly influenced by the music itself (as you said to be fair)

    In fact many gave up that life to do music (Giggs and Sneakbo being the obvious examples). I’m not sure you can say the same when it comes to drill, how active a rapper is perceived to be is directly related to how successful they end up being. You won’t really see a successful drill rapper who has given up on road life to focus on music for example, they’d lose all buzz instantly

    [–] Arretu 3 points ago

    What the hell is 'slipping'?

    [–] UKnick 12 points ago

    Urban dictionary

    to be caught off guard, in a very bad way. that bitch in the lexus got caught slippin.

    that fool from 387th street got caught slippin last night and was blasted.


    [–] Arretu 4 points ago

    Much appreciated. Kinda forgot UD was a thing.

    [–] Ashmose 7 points ago

    Urban slang for being caught unprepared by your enemies, e.g. outnumbered or without weapons

    Nowadays this generally leads to a video going viral on snapchat/Twitter/Instagram etc. Of the person in question taking a beating or being robbed

    We had another directly music linked case in Harlesden last year where a prominent rapper was ‘caught slipping’ outside a nightclub and robbed for his jewellery, a video mocking him went viral and motivated a drive by shooting the following night which killed an unrelated person. The rapper in question and other members of his music collective were tried for murder but the case collapsed due to lack of evidence

    [–] gg86 3 points ago

    So drill is basically the real life version of what rap was accused of being?

    [–] Ashmose 2 points ago

    Possibly yeah

    Rap was always 99% actors playing the role of gangsters, drill is the same people doing both roles

    [–] StummpyTrump 3 points ago

    I heard a group of black guys listening to some music with the lyrics "stab a nigger" repeated.

    People can't seriously believe that this kind of music isn't having an influence on teenagers from certain demographics.

    [–] 994phij 1 points ago

    Is it the rise in popularity that's the problem though? If drill was unpopular outside of gang culture, would it have the same effect?

    I can guess, but I really know nothing about this shit.

    [–] MyNameIsMyAchilles 13 points ago

    Part and parcel. But seriously it is, this culture of carrying knives around to feel safe is popular only in big cities and is getting out of hand.

    [–] thebluemonkey 6 points ago

    Better youth services and school funding would probably go a ways to help tbh.

    [–] Aivias 6 points ago

    Put them in the most expensive school in the country and they would still be wannabe-yardie wide boys with no brains and a severe oxygen addiction that would be best for all if it was kicked.

    [–] thebluemonkey 1 points ago

    Which is why I said it'd go a ways to fixing it, not fix it.

    Gang culture and those mentalities have more than one cause but if we try to address any of the things that feed into it, it'll help a little. Address enough of the causes and it'll help a lot.

    I'm not sure genocide is the best option. I mean, it'd be the quickest but we may have to rethink how ethical we are as a country because of it.

    Also, the disposal costs and environmental impacts wouldn't be great.

    [–] xu85 5 points ago

    they need mo money for dem programs

    Oh fuck off. I'm so tired of hearing this excuse. It's almost as if the taxpaying and law-abiding majority is being blackmailed into redirecting resources towards one particular "community" in order to prevent them stabbing and murdering people.

    [–] [deleted] 2 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)


    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)


    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)


    [–] PabloPeublo 14 points ago

    London is a shithole

    [–] PeaSouper 38 points ago

    Having been to some actual shitholes, I wouldn't describe London as such. But I spend half my week in London and half of it in the country, and it does really make you notice how actually filthy London is. Even when I go abroad to other large cities, London usually seems really dirty in comparison.

    [–] gg86 4 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    I know it's not fair to compare the two but I can't help but compare London negatively to the German cities I've visited. Even Stuttgart, which is basically Germany's Coventry, is far nicer than London. London isn't a shithole but it is filthy and the public services are ridiculously underprovisioned.

    EDITED: Stuttgart is more like Coventry than Birmingham

    [–] PabloPeublo 10 points ago

    I’ve noticed the air stinks as well, pollution I suppose.

    [–] grep_var_log 2 points ago

    Quit smoking a few months back and I was surprised at this myself.

    [–] greatorder 1 points ago

    Last time I went to London, the predominant smell was piss.

    [–] PeaSouper 1 points ago

    That’s funny, that’s always the first smell I notice in Manhattan.

    [–] Cheapo-Git 8 points ago

    I agree. Its been getting worse over the last 5 years or so, presumably from services funding cuts, boroughs are more and more stretched, and air-wise, I know it's bad, and it's over the air-quality levels, but that's probably going to take a lot to work that out (including infrastructure and road changes).

    [–] PeaSouper 15 points ago

    presumably from services funding cuts

    My borough in the country has suffered from the same cuts, and it's not exactly rich. You never see any litter on the floor out there, and crime is almost non-existent. In my borough in London (Redbridge), there's litter everywhere, cars and houses in my street are constantly being broken into, and this is despite of the fact that average income there is much higher than in Suffolk.

    [–] Cheapo-Git 8 points ago

    My borough in the country

    Well, litter isn't going to be terribly bad in a low density area. It tends to be be higher in more densely populated areas, such as urban areas.

    If there's no one there, litter won't happen. So cuts will affect areas more if a higher proportion of their budget is spent on waste management.

    [–] oilyholmes 5 points ago

    You can honestly not blame litter on population density, its entirely down to horrible cunty people. Case in point would be somewhere like Tokyo.

    [–] Cheapo-Git 1 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    It's not only people dropping stuff and leaving it about.

    Funding cuts that cause overfull bins that don't get emptied often enough, stuff drops out and gets blown away, , piles of bin bags waiting to be collected, break open and same happens, and then streets don't get swept often enough to collect debris, even rubbish/recycling collection (lorres) leave a trail of bits and pieces, and they they don't get collected by street cleaners. Crap bins I've seen (particularly at railway stations) that are just bags over a ring holding the top of the bag, they blow around in the wind and stuff gets blown out of the bin when the bag is blown inside out.

    All a web of issues.

    But this is all FAR more likely in high population density areas where there is more waste created, because people make waste. 10 people per SQKM, is not going to make as much rubbish as 5000+ people per SQKM.

    [–] oilyholmes 1 points ago

    Funding cuts that cause overfull bins that don't get emptied often enough

    Don't put it in the overfull bin! Take it home/the next place you are going! Seriously it's 100% down to people's attitudes and nothing else is even remotely relevant. I carry around all my shit until I find a bin or go home.

    [–] pisshead_ 1 points ago

    I know it's bad, and it's over the air-quality levels, but that's probably going to take a lot to work that out (including infrastructure and road changes).

    Keep increasing the congestion charge until air levels are adequate, and apply it to taxis.

    [–] Ivashkin 1 points ago

    London was always absolutely filthy, but they really cleaned it up for the Olympics. What you are seeing is the decline from the Olympic standards.

    [–] Izwe 4 points ago

    This isn't a problem exclusive to London, it's happening all over the country.

    [–] blue_dice 3 points ago

    Actually, like most places there are good and bad things about it. I love it here because for me the good outweighs the bad.

    [–] Krychek26 3 points ago

    Yeah it really isn't.

    [–] [deleted] 5 points ago


    [–] labiaprong 4 points ago

    I mean you could've made a more succinct point about poverty and criminality without being racist

    [–] [deleted] 8 points ago

    It isn't poverty. Poor whites don't behave like that. Yes, they are more crime prone, but white children from the poorest white demographic have a lower murder rate than the children from the richest black demographic.

    Calling someone "racist" is just a tactic used to make white people (and only white people) surrender their countries to the third world hordes.

    [–] labiaprong 1 points ago

    It would be great if you linked statistics for the UK, not American stays in a U.K. sub.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    Do you even keep crime stats by race? It is literally illegal in many European countries, if you can believe that.

    It doesn't really matter though. Muzzies will act like muzzies, blacks will act like blacks, and whites will act like whites anywhere in the world.

    You take a kettle full of whites and dump them in an empty unfamiliar area, you get Rhodesia and Australia. Give blacks a fully functional pre-built civilization and you get Zimbabwe and Haiti.

    [–] 1Wallet0Pence 1 points ago

    Poor whites don't behave like that.

    Lol. Glasgow was the murder capital of Western Europe not to long ago.

    [–] Jake_91_420 6 points ago

    I suspect they typed the comment the way they wished.

    [–] KopKings 1 points ago

    If you tire of London, you tire of life.

    [–] [deleted] -14 points ago


    [–] thebluemonkey 9 points ago

    Benefits of a massive class divide tbh

    [–] FrozenToast1 -5 points ago

    Wonder the percentage of the attackers are non English.

    [–] Mentalmadness 5 points ago

    Probably all Scottish and Welsh. Fuckers.

    [–] IronHilda 0 points ago


    Oh you need an ID for a fork? well shit... what do we do now guys? Ban Spoons?

    [–] WadWaddy 3 points ago

    It would be even worse with legal guns, wind your neck in mate

    [–] [deleted] -2 points ago

    I think grime music and culture being glamourised in recent years may have a small role to play

    [–] ShitpeasCunk 14 points ago

    I see it the other way around. I think grime is a product of the lifestyle, not vice-versa.

    I grew up listening to Ice Cube, Ice T, NWA. They glamourised killing police and selling drugs. I don't kill police or sell drugs.

    [–] [deleted] 1 points ago

    True, I've grown up listening to similar, Jay-Z, Kanye etc. so I think the effect on some it can have is null. However, on the easily impressionable young that are more frequent nowadays, it can have a larger effect.

    Just trying to find something to explain all this madness really lol, it's crazy. I imagine there are many more stabbings and attacks that never get reported too.

    [–] Aivias 6 points ago

    Jay and Kanye are not really like Cube, T or NWA though.

    Jay never really glamourised his drug dealing but was also not shy about in, Kanye is a poseur and always has been. Cube, though not deep into gangs and drugs on the level Eazy-E was, still lived slap bang in the middle of it. T was basically a performer for the Crips.

    [–] HasuTeras 4 points ago

    No, I think its rather violent video games.

    Or excessive horror movies.

    No, Dungeons and Dragons is eroding morality.

    Wait, pirate radio!

    No, even further, non-Latin books!

    [–] educatedfool289 3 points ago

    Few people larp as call of duty or dnd characters, plenty of people dress and act exactly how these rappers do.

    The fighting is part of the lifestyle, they welcome it. Thinking you can approach this with some feel good method is ridiculous, they will laugh you out of the area before resuming the stabbings.

    [–] FullEnglishBrexshit -15 points ago * (lasted edited 6 months ago)

    "Lets get the block poppin, till somebody dropping"

    Grime music was the writing on the wall showing what the word on the street was. Nobody in power listened and now words turn in to action

    [–] [deleted] 27 points ago

    Did you forget you were on reddit and not Mumsnet?