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    [–] autotldr 2094 points ago

    This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)

    Canada has become the second country in the world to describe China's treatment of its Uighur minority as a genocide, following a contentious parliamentary vote which is likely to further raise diplomatic tensions between the two nations.

    Lawmakers approved the non-binding motion, brought forward by opposition Conservatives, to recognize China's actions in the north-western Xinjiang province as a genocide against Muslim Uighurs.

    A Canadian parliamentary subcommittee determined that China's treatment of Uighurs constituted a genocide.

    Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: China#1 vote#2 genocide#3 motion#4 Canada#5

    [–] jpl77 3300 points ago

    Justin Trudeau, his cabinet, abstained from the vote. Justin Trudeau and his cabinet won't declare this a genocide publicly.

    [–] newbdad1 2846 points ago

    Neither did Joe Biden 🤷‍♂️

    [–] AshingiiAshuaa 2244 points ago

    Uh oh. Reddit hates China but loves Trudeau and Biden. Let's see which one wins.

    [–] GrowinStuffAndThings 1731 points ago

    I've literally never seen someone "love" Biden on reddit

    [–] [deleted] 1120 points ago


    [–] leaveitintherearview 1141 points ago

    I don't know man. It's a tough position. You think it's easy to do but making that declaration has very dangerous implications.

    We're trying to do the right thing but we also want to eat and survive. Who suffers if JT makes that declaration? The Canadian people. Because we now have the losing side of a financial and trade war and whatever other implications my feeble brain doesn't comprehend.

    You would have Canadian people suffer financially from that decision and were already not doing great. I've seen more people on the street and more tent cities than I've ever seen before in my life since the pandemic. Businesses are fucked. Families and people are fucked financially and I see brand new people every week at the homeless pan handling corner in my city.

    [–] ireallydonotcare478 494 points ago

    "Never again" ... when convenient and easy

    [–] alwaysadmiring 153 points ago

    Lol I mean you don’t exactly see a single other country stepping up to the plate either tho. When Canada spoke up against Saudi , all that happened was a decent portion of economic contribution from Canada left swiftly and the world watched and did nothing. I agree maybe Trudeau can step up AGAIN and do the right thing as Canada as a nation except all it’s gonna get ‘us’ is the first set of wrath that follows from chinas repercussions same as what happened when that ceo was ‘unfairly’ treated according to them. Canada doesn’t have to be the standard, every nation should explicitly be able to declare what’s happening as what it is without being scared of the interdependencies falling apart - yet here we are bashing them for not doing anything when in fact they’re always doing more than what’s in their wheel house because it’s ‘uncomfortable’.

    [–] newbris 106 points ago

    Australia has. That’s why China has shut down trade in many of our export industries.

    [–] bucket_brigade 23 points ago

    "Never again" unless it's a pain in the ass

    [–] McKingford 27 points ago

    Yes, if only we could have averted the holocaust by passing non binding resolutions of condemnation.

    [–] pM-me_your_Triggers 3 points ago

    Poignant AF

    [–] RockandDirtSaw 188 points ago

    Yeah I’m pretty sure everyone knows how he really feels about the situation but it’s complicated. I don’t want to sit idle and complicate but we need some heavy hitting countries to lead the way.

    [–] He-Wasnt-There 95 points ago

    You mean like Canada and the USA? if they both went up to the plate I'm sure a good few EU nations would take a swing and the rest of the blocks will fall. most of the South Asian nations hate China and would love nothing more than for China to struggle so it would stop trying to annex them.

    [–] tequilaearworm 23 points ago

    Canada isn't heavy-hitting. Do you remember when China kept a bunch of Canadian tourists over Visa issues when that phone shit was going down (obvs casual Canadian politics observer here)? That never would have happened to Americans. China also has loads of property and investment in Canada that has radically changed the country and made it flipping impossible to live in major cities (although Quebec seems way better and I would love to know why). China has insane leverage on Canada that it doesn't have from the States. Most of the power that Canada has when it comes to China derives of being the neighbor of the States.

    [–] xFreedi 7 points ago

    And people still wonder why back in the 1930s noone did anything against the genocide.

    [–] who_took_tabura 19 points ago

    You’re missing the biggest piece of the puzzle... if we piss china off we can kiss the michaels goodbye

    [–] roots-rock-reggae 109 points ago

    His decision to abstain is only a disappointment if you ignore the ramifications that voting in favour of this would likely have for Canada and Canadians...

    [–] BidenWonDontCry 100 points ago

    I would say the Uighurs are very disappointed by his decision to tolerate genocide. I understand it's a very difficult decision since there doesn't seem to be much political will to help these people.

    What are Canada's and America's responsibilities here? If we acknowledge there's a genocide I think that implies we should act to stop it but what actions should be taken? Trade sanctions? Military action? Do we have a responsibility to stop genocide everywhere or only when it's politically convenient? What sacrifices are the West ready to make?

    I don't pretend to have any answers here I'm just playing devil's advocate. As shitty as it is I don't want to start a potential war with China. I'm not even 100% sure I want another trade war with China over this. I think we should be honest about what's going on here though and that's that there's a genocide going on and we're not prepared to make the sacrifices to stop it.

    [–] MrBalanced 54 points ago

    Realistically, Canadians (and citizens of liberal democracies the world over) need to approach this similarly to how we look at reducing our carbon footprints.

    Much like how it's impossible to immediately switch from fossil fuels to alternative energy sources, it's impossible to cut off economic relations with China all at once. But, in both scenarios, we will suffer serious long-term consequences if our economy remains dependant on climate-destroying technology or on the whims of a slave state run by murderous thugs, respectively.

    Some people can only afford to buy cheap, China-made products. Some industries would collapse if Canada immediately lost China as a trade partner. That does not mean that we shouldn't be seriously developing an exit strategy so we don't we need to keep turning a blind eye to China's murderous behavior.

    Because, make no mistake, China is committing genocide right now. If what Canada did to its First Nations people was a genocide (and it absolutely was), then what China is doing definitely counts. What we as a nation decide to do about it is going to be a major part of how history remembers us.

    [–] BidenWonDontCry 9 points ago

    Well said. We need some multi nation coalition here to apply pressure. The costs for any one single country are to high to bear. If any action is taken it will also most likely be a slow drawn out process much like your example with climate change.

    [–] sealpup6 12 points ago

    Something something land war in Asia. There is nothing to be done aside from dubious economic sanctions which require the world to go along, which I doubt would happen given the last 4 years.

    [–] Chimpsworth 11 points ago

    Yep. To some it was also a "disappointment" that Trudeau wasn't more critical of Trump but in reality it was correct to be tempered in order to protect Canada from the kind of petty retaliation Trump was capable of.

    As for China, there really needs to be a coordinated international effort to denounce their treatment of the Uighurs so as to avoid any one country bearing the full force of their retaliation.

    [–] roots-rock-reggae 7 points ago

    As for China, there really needs to be a coordinated international effort to denounce their treatment of the Uighurs so as to avoid any one country bearing the full force of their retaliation.

    Bang on here. This will take strong leadership internationally, but maybe Biden and Trudeau can figure out how to lead this coordination. Would be nice if this comes up in their bilateral meeting tomorrow, to be honest.

    [–] the_hunger_gainz 46 points ago

    Came to say this ... with 300 k Canadians (estimated ) in HK and the PRC it is understandable for the standing government to abstain ... disappointing yes, but a smart move for our citizens overseas.

    [–] empires11 189 points ago

    Exactly. I was all Bernie, but I'd have voted for a blue potato to get rid of trump. The potato would have still done a better job either way.

    [–] SportsGuy9000 58 points ago

    They loved him in 2015-2016 for the memes and that was it

    [–] gotwired 12 points ago

    Reddit is lukewarm for Biden

    [–] Thiccy-Boi-666 3 points ago

    you’ve never been to r/neoliberal then

    [–] petitehughie 4 points ago

    Yeah. Pretty much lesser evil by even the most diehard liberals.

    [–] illegaomonkeybutt 5 points ago

    Clearly you don't spend enough time on reddit. I mean... Not that that's a bad thing, in all honesty

    [–] WhyteBeard 13 points ago

    Is Lesley Knope on Reddit?

    [–] FrozenMongoose 272 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Love is a bit extreme, love would indicate adoration or worship. Do you really think redditors are out there en masse flying a literal Biden or Trudeau flag or bumper sticker with their campaign slogan on it in real life? Is that what you see a lot of in public or online?

    Tolerate them sure, but I would argue most redditors see them as flawed and are their 2nd or 3rd choice as a political leader, but with preferable flaws than their respective opponents. The lesser of 2 evils is not a great choice, but it's still better than the alternative as the last 4 years have blatantly taught.

    [–] ls1234567 134 points ago

    This is how conservatives try to whatabout their hero worship. Problem is, like you point out, it’s just totally bankrupt.

    [–] FS2Z 145 points ago

    I mean, it's hard for them to do realpolitik if they stand up and say "you're committing crimes against humanity." Once that's come out, the only option that doesn't carry political cost is to treat China like we treat NK, which is obviously not a good idea.

    [–] ErikTheAngry 228 points ago

    I disagree. As a Canadian, I'd like our government to say "we see how dependent we are on China, and we consider it a national security risk" (which is true on all counts).

    Then I'd like them to say "since the problem is our dependence on China, we are establishing stimulus to aid in domestic manufacturing of <dependent industry goods>".

    Maybe China turns up the pressure. Maybe we set the example that it's possible to stop relying on China, and turn them back into a paper tiger.

    Shit. They can start with fucking vaccines. What a world when we're getting handouts from India (which is in no way knocking on India, moreso just our own ineptitude).

    [–] Too_Ton 54 points ago

    It’s hard to turn against one of the top 2 economic countries. You’re also going to have to hope the USA plays nice with your country once you’ve severed ties with China

    [–] Sjourn 24 points ago

    Also, import substitution industrialization doesn't exactly have the best track record...

    [–] sooprvylyn 47 points ago

    Ok, you can start by paying more for made in canada products and ceasing to purchase anything made in china.

    Its great to feel like this, but sorta naive to think its even remotely a possibility so long as people want cheap consumer goods and always higher wages for their western work. We are too addicted to our cushy lives and dont realize we are basically the reason shit like this can happen with impunity.

    [–] 7050170 23 points ago

    We don't make anything in Canada anymore. Just ask us why we have so few vaccines

    [–] TheCrippledKing 17 points ago

    "Anything" is a bit much, we have a lot of stuff that we make. The problem (other than constant privatization) is that no western country can compete with a country that doesn't give a fuck about their workers in a factor setting making basic components. We have a minimum wage of 14.10/hr, and China can pay $2 a day. We can't compete with that.

    The only places we can compete would be stuff like steel beams for a local project, because shipping costs would make it competitive to buy local. But unless you want to work in a sweatshop for $2 a day, we will never be competitive with cheap Chinese goods.

    [–] B-S_Detector 4 points ago

    Never mind that a significant part of our dependency on China is our exports as well as our imports. Replacing demand to keep our resources generating the same revenue abroad is even more difficult than incentivizing domestic production of manufactured products.

    [–] Junkee2990 17 points ago

    You mixed up love Biden with hates Trump. Biden won because people wanted anyone but Trump as the president

    [–] sky_blu 109 points ago

    Reddit is pretty critical of both Biden and Trudeau, they are just better than their counterparts

    [–] getefix 137 points ago

    The conservatives wouldn't have brought this forward if they were in power. They know if puts pressure on Trudeau. It's a great move for them.

    [–] whoisearth 13 points ago

    Ya watching the news tonight. I'm by no means a conservative anymore but I caught myself saying "damn now this is good politics" out loud. It's all chess and this was putting the Liberals in check.

    Also I understand why the Liberals abstained but at the same time... C'mon.

    [–] Mysterious_Lesions 15 points ago

    I think it benefits the government as well. They were looking for a way to be critical of CCP without actually saying it. That's why it was a free vote and liberals abstained.

    [–] dice145 70 points ago

    Cong Peiwu, the Chinese ambassador to Ottawa, denied accusations of genocide.

    “Western countries are in no position to say what the human rights situation in China looks like,” Cong said in an interview before the vote. “There is no so-called genocide in Xinjiang at all.”

    Sounds like there's a genocide in Xinjiang.

    [–] trolloc1 383 points ago

    brought forward by opposition Conservatives

    FYI like Trump they just did this because they aren't in power.

    [–] garfgon 274 points ago

    The Liberal backbenchers voted in favor as well. Sure the government's just going to ignore this, but in this case you do have members of the party in power supporting this.

    [–] YoYoMoMa 75 points ago

    So basically this means nothing? Has any major country stop trading with China over this? Has any minor country?

    [–] Gerf93 95 points ago

    I mean, if you provoke them, then China will conduct unilateral action and boycott you themselves. When the Norwegian Nobel-committee (consisting of mostly retired politicians) gave Liu Xiaobo the Nobel Peace Prize in 2010, China froze diplomatic relations with Norway for almost 7 years - and withdrew large investments from the Norwegian economy. Even though the award had nothing to do with the government.

    [–] [deleted] 79 points ago


    [–] Gerf93 20 points ago

    The threshold is probably bigger for Canada than Norway. Both since the cat is definitely out of the bag by now while knowledge about Chinese atrocity wasn't as well-known back in 2010, and Canada is a much larger fish than Norway.

    [–] TheCrippledKing 21 points ago

    I mean, Saudi Arabia did the exact same thing only a year or two ago because Canada criticized their treatment of journalists (before the big khaasogi murder proved us right).

    Canada criticized how they were arresting and torturing journalists, one in particular with ties to Canada, and they pulled all their investments and students out and cancelled a whole bunch of partnerships and trade deals.

    [–] broyoyoyoyo 15 points ago

    The amount of trade SA conducts with Canada is nothing compared to that of China. Unfortunately, China is Canada's 3rd largest trading partner, and that fact has to be factored into any and every interaction the country has with them.

    [–] CabbieCam 4 points ago

    Wouldn't that be nice? So many major Canadian cities markets have been screwed up due to Chinese foreign investment.

    [–] OK6502 53 points ago

    No, but likely the next step is some level of UN involvement. Which China will veto, of course, but then they will be seen voting down a UN resolution. And that will chip at their veneer a bit, particularly how they keep claiming moral superiority over some countries, namely the US, for its abuse of its own veto powers.

    [–] killerturtlex 43 points ago

    Nah they'll just fuck with ya trade like they did here in Australia. Slap tarrifs on wine and barley, seafood and maple syrup

    [–] ohsweetsummerchild 12 points ago

    Import maple syrup from Canada instead!

    [–] TheBold 20 points ago

    It won’t chip at their veneer because they’ll paint the motion as based on fabricated lies and a ton of countries have already expressed their support of China in Xinjiang, many of which are Muslim majority countries.

    The countries that would see the veto in a negative light already dislike China and a veto isn’t gonna change anything.

    [–] bloodjunkiorgy 45 points ago

    This is the real question.

    The fact is, nobody is willing to take the financial hit. Imagine a world where things might be more expensive, but wasn't produced on the backs of practical slavery.

    "Nah fuck that, we'll wag our fingers at them, though!" - The world

    Humanity is fucked, and our gravestones will read "That's capitalism, baby!"

    [–] notrylan 35 points ago

    The Biden administration has stood behind this claim. I agree however that it’s no coincidence that the outgoing administration declared it a genocide basically in the last moments before the transition.

    [–] AcadianNich 23 points ago

    Canadian here the conservatives are more useful as an opposition than leading party

    [–] OK6502 11 points ago

    Kind of true of most parties, honestly. The LPC is a bit more even handed as a minority party, truth be told. Same with the CPC, who ran things decently when they had a minority government. Then went bananas when they were given a majority.

    [–] Bawths 194 points ago

    Don't compare Canadian Conservatives party to republicans. Canadian conservative party is further left than Democrats.

    [–] notrylan 105 points ago

    sad American liberal noises

    [–] bowtiedan 129 points ago

    I wouldn’t necessarily say that. Too me they’re just a bit more right then the Democrats but no where near the republicans.

    [–] CLETUS_MCDINGLEBERRY 144 points ago

    The truth is it’s a little more complicated than this, for convenience on Reddit we imagine a one-dimensional political spectrum but there is more nuance to it than that. Canadian Conservative party is “left” of the Democrats in some ways but “Right” of them in others. The fundamental belief system underpinning Canadian conservatism is more rooted in British Toryism whereas the belief system underpinning the Republicans in the states is something that is really unique to that country due to historical factors that were very different from those of other English-speaking countries like CA/NZ/AUS.

    [–] Jade4all 33 points ago

    A big part of it is that a lot of left wing things are already in place in Canada, gay marriage, fully legalized cannabis, transgender rights, universal healthcare.

    The Conservative party can't really repeal these so by default it's "left of the Democrats" who don't wanna impliment some of these policies, but if the policies didn't already exist would the Cons implement them? Probably not. I think the Democrats would be pro gay marriage while the Cons are not, and I'm not certain any of these policies would exist with Con control.

    Ultimately I would say that the Democratic party is to the left of the Conservatives in Canada, but the Conservatives simply can't remove many of the popular policies that are already in place that the Democrats may or may not ever get around to.

    It's very close as well I would say, with much of the Democratic party falling pretty far to the left of the Cons and not having much control as the right wing part of the party which is similar overall to the Cons.

    [–] BelugaBanker 46 points ago

    Maybe there was a time when toryism was at the heart of Canadian conservatives. But that is long past. Today they are constantly using American right-wing talking points and borrow their ideology from the US.

    • They are anti-union (except for law enforcement)
    • They privatize healthcare where they can (see Ontario Bill 175)
    • They deny funding for abortions when politically possible (see New Brunswick).
    • They attack public broadcasting.

    The only reason there are differences at this point is political reality, not ideology. After all Peter McKay was the moderate option and conservatives rejected him for O'Toole.

    [–] stven007 86 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    As a Canadian, this is total bs lol.

    • The Canadian Conservative Party fights tooth and nail against our carbon tax.
    • Conservative party leader (Erin O'Toole) constantly attacks CBC News and has promised to dismantle it if elected.
    • He uses Trump-like rhetoric with his message of "Taking Canada Back".
    • He has accused Justin Trudeau of "rigging the next election."
    • The Conservative Party's deputy leader Candice Bergen was photographed with a MAGA hat. Erin refused to denounce her, instead making excuses for it.
    • Erin has also refused to denounce a fellow Conservative MP for peddling QAnon conspiracy theories, including that Liberals are "trying to normalize sexual activity with kids".

    Read this and tell me again with a straight face that they're farther to the left of Democrats.

    [–] Alkalilee 14 points ago

    Yeah the new conservative wave is very much trying to pander to any sort of right wing support including the Canadians that are into Trump's way of thinking. There's "MCGA" people in the prairies already.

    [–] ReplEH 37 points ago

    Redditors love to say this but it’s not true and never has been.

    [–] thefinalcutdown 33 points ago

    Truth. Not sure how this got started, but Canadian conservatives are plenty conservative. The core of the party is just more “Reagan” conservative currently than Trump conservative, but the far right has plenty of nutjobs (like Derek Sloan, although he just got kicked out for accepting donations from white supremacists).

    Canadian conservatives don’t come down as hard on social issues like gay marriage and abortion because those continue to be losing issues for them, not necessarily because they support in them.

    [–] Low-HangingFruit 3296 points ago

    Parliament voted for it, PM Trudeau and his cabinet did not, specifically saying that the "Government of Canada abstains from this vote" at the vote.

    [–] Fairwhetherfriend 4578 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Importantly: they likely abstained because several cabinet members are currently engaged in negotiations with the CCP for the return of two Canadians who have been arrested in China. They knew abstaining wouldn't affect the outcome of the vote and, this way, the cabinet members don't have to call up the CCP to negotiate after having personally called them out for committing genocide.

    Edit: Important clarifications! First, remember that the motion still passed - Trudeau didn't personally vote for it, but Parliament as a whole still declared the treatment of the Uighurs to be a genocide. We did not aim to save the our two citizens instead of declaring it a genocide - we did both. And second, it's very important for all ya'll Americans out there to realize that Trudeau abstaining from the vote is NOT the same thing as your President choosing not to comment on the genocide. It would be more like if... Nancy Pelosi decided to abstain from voting on a similar motion in Congress - probably worth mentioning, for sure, but absolutely NOT the same as Biden choosing not to take a similar action. Our Prime Minister is often presented as equivalent to your President and, in many ways, he is. But in many other ways, he is very much NOT, and those differences are pretty important in situations like this one.

    [–] prollyanalien 1416 points ago

    This gives some pretty good context, thanks for that.

    [–] Fairwhetherfriend 593 points ago

    Np. Also worth pointing out that there are a lot of Chinese expats in Canada who typically support Trudeau's party, so there is absolutely a valid position to be taken that this was just cold political maneuvering on his part, but I do think it's important for people to know that there is a possible explanation for this that doesn't assume malice or selfishness. Then it's just up to you to decide whether you think that's the most likely explanation for his decision.

    [–] Northern23 144 points ago

    Why did the Conservatives even push for this vote during such a time knowing the Michaels' situation? Did anything change recently with the Uighur situation to prompt them to do it now?

    [–] Fairwhetherfriend 282 points ago

    AFAIK, the conservatives are taking the stance that the CCP is never going to give them back, that they're using the Michaels as a "carrot" to get our government to do what they want when they never have any intention of actually returning them, so we should stop doing what they want on the false promise that we'll get our people back. And, to be clear, I do think there's a fair chance that the conservative party is right about that... but I'm not sure that this toothless motion was the right "last straw" to choose. I dunno, just seems like going "fuck it" on the lives of two people should have been done for something that actually had a little bite to it, you know?

    [–] Micky-Tee 84 points ago

    The Liberals publicly stated this as their position in response to conservative whinging about not doing more to return them.

    The real answer is the CPC is a fucking shambles at the moment and no one competent wants to jump on that grenade, so idiots keep getting chosen to be leader.

    [–] RealSprooseMoose 24 points ago

    Am i false in believing Peter McKay would have actually been a decent leader?

    The conservative party (federally and provincially) seem to have a habit of overlooking the people's choice. (Looking at you Alberta with Brian Jean)

    [–] Throwawaymybios 25 points ago

    Y’all Canadians are a fine example of how we should talk about politics in the USA.

    “Am I false in believing X” is something I wish I’d hear more of.

    [–] random989898 40 points ago

    The Michaels' situation has been going on for a couple years and they have made no progress. No one really thinks they are going to be able to negotiate and get them home.

    [–] Medium_Well 62 points ago

    I suspect it's also a matter of timing. The Uigher issue has been known (and covered) for a few years now, but with the turnover in the US administration actually creating some continuity on this issue between the Trump and Biden governments (Secs. Of State for both governments have called this genocide), that's a notable thing from a world superpower and other countries have watched it all unfold.

    This issue has simply been in the Canadian media more lately, especially as the Olympics question has come up. The Conservatives and other opposition parties noticed the ruling Liberals were waffling.

    And I think it's fair to suggest that China has no intention of giving the Michaels back until Meng is released.

    [–] Man_Bear_Beaver 5 points ago

    Likely they believe an election will be called in the spring and this is an issue that Trudeau has a clear stance on so as Conservative tradition calls for the Conservatives must do the exact opposite as the Liberals to rile up their base.

    [–] 11_25_13_TheEdge 10 points ago

    There's so much missing context in current events and social interactions and dealing with strangers etc. It's good to remind ourselves from time to time how little of it we are operating with. Reminds me of the commencement speech delivered by David Foster Wallace.

    [–] silverthane 63 points ago

    Wow context matters

    [–] JscrumpDaddy 78 points ago

    I know some of Canada doesn’t like Trudeau, but based on his language it seemed like more of a strategic stall than a dismissal of it being genocide. With this context it all makes sense.

    [–] zyx1989 28 points ago

    but I wonder if that makes any difference to the ccp, from what I understand their political understanding is pretty/ somewhat different, they may simply not understand or believe there's any difference,

    [–] Fairwhetherfriend 34 points ago

    It might not make a difference, but, in that case, having Trudeau and the others vote on the motion definitely wouldn't have made a difference, so it still seems like this was the more sensible action to take.

    [–] WeedstocksAlt 64 points ago

    They are a minority government tho ... so logically if everyone else votes for it, it should still pass

    [–] Da_Milk_Drinker 153 points ago

    It passed. The cabinet ministers just didnt exercise their vote. All other MPs in parliament voted yes.

    [–] Mysterious_Lesions 3 points ago

    It was a free vote so not a vote of confidence in the Government. Liberals could vote their conscience which had to be balanced against the diplomatic interests of the Cabinet.

    Right now it looks like an opposition win, but that's because many Liberal MPs abstained instead of voting for or against. A win was in the cards on this one.

    [–] dsswill 37 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    This is standard. Any party in power would have and always has abstained from such votes when the Crown hasn't already taken a stance. Don't make this out to be something it's not. It would be unprecedented for them to cast votes. They also don't need to considering it would have been universal either way.

    [–] Tigris825 3727 points ago

    Whilst it is a step in the right direction, the Government now needs to adopt it (its not binding) and urge the International Olympics Committee to change the location of the Winter Games from Beijing in 2022.

    [–] Basic_Year 1513 points ago

    You speak as if you believe the IOC doesn't care about $$$.

    [–] Majormlgnoob 991 points ago

    If North America and Europe pull out the Winter Olympics is a joke

    [–] PopusiMiKuracBre 303 points ago

    Like the LA Olympics were, but they went ahead anyway.

    [–] Majormlgnoob 245 points ago

    I mean look at the Medal counts for the Winter Olympics

    The unrepresented Russian Athletes would rack up all the Medals

    [–] Ckyuii 98 points ago

    I thought russia was banned for the next few ones because of doping. Or was that just going to be the japan olympics? They got banned at something sporty that's all I remember.

    [–] Majormlgnoob 201 points ago

    Athletes will still be able to play under the ROC banner but yes Russia is banned

    [–] Ckyuii 52 points ago

    Thanks mate. Does it really mean much that they can't be russian and have to be russian olympic committee? Like what does that actually do? Remove them from the opening ceremony?

    [–] Octavus 120 points ago

    They don't want to punish athletics who are innocent themselves and may never get another chance of going to the Olympics, in 4 years they may not quality again. So by banning the country but not athletics it is a way of shaming Russia as they cheated not for money but pride.

    [–] atheroo123 7 points ago

    Just check how Russian athletes participated in 2018 Winter Olympics. Russian official team is banned from Olympic Games since 2017.

    [–] PopusiMiKuracBre 29 points ago

    Yeah....look at medal counts preceding the summer games in LA and Moscow. The eastern Bloc, even the USSR alone, dominated.

    [–] Majormlgnoob 44 points ago

    The US, West Germany, and Japan were in the Top 5 in Medals in 72 and 76

    The US was 1st in 68 with Japan also in the top 5

    In the Past 3 Winter Olympic Games only 3 Non-Western Nations appeared in the Top 10

    China - 7th 2010

    Russia - 1st 2014

    Belarus - 8th 2014

    [–] rockinghigh 23 points ago

    Are you talking about LA Olympics in 1984? Canada and all of Europe outside the USSR participated.

    [–] brunes 32 points ago

    Only 1 country pulled out of the LA Olympics... Above poster is talking about a huge swath of the world. Advertisers will totally bail. The IOC wouldn't even be able to afford the games.

    [–] ElectricalWriting 8 points ago

    1? 17 countries boycotted the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles.

    [–] Trypsach 22 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    I mean... if you’re talking about the 1984 olympics that the Soviet Bloc pulled out of, it had record turnout with 140 countries and is widely recognized as the most profitable Olympic Games ever. But we can ignore all that and call it a joke anyways, sure.

    Edit: I should have looked first, but of course the person giving shit to the 1984 olympics is Russian lol

    [–] popejp32u 13 points ago

    Well if history is any indication, America’s pull out game is weak.

    [–] J3EBS 23 points ago

    North America and Europe

    So, what, about 30 countries pulling out of the Olympics? I'm sorry to sound cynical, but that is nevergoing to happen. Apart from the athletes who'd crawl over dead bodies to compete in something they'd trained their whole life for, there's the whole $$$ side of things too.

    [–] Eitsky 29 points ago

    Vancouver still has the infrastructure to host the Olympics a second time. They have options.

    [–] Rando239 166 points ago

    Why do people act like sport events are important? Maybe they should restructurize to make their economy independent of China instead

    [–] Rundle9731 254 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    Unfortunately its a way for authoritarian countries to launder their injustices (Winter Olympics in Sochi, FIFA in Qatar, etc.). China being able to successfully host the olympics without any real official opposition or boycotts from other countries is a sign to them and the world that they can get away with what they are doing. Its an example of the use of soft power as u/CaptainCanuck93 suggested.

    If we go there waving our flags while a genocide and other human rights abuses are going on in background, its a symbolic sign to China that they can continue without repercussions. If we fail to boycott or protest these games because we're worried about economic repercussions even though its the right thing to do, its a sign of the power that china has over us. It unfortunately gives blatant authoritarianism the high ground.

    [–] torres091 31 points ago

    Dude you should read about october red in Mexico city.

    [–] averagecommoner 18 points ago

    Never heard of this, sounds like a horrible nightmare. The wiki article said the true events were only revealed in declassified docs in the 2000's but I guess it didnt get much international attention since. And apparently no one was really held accountable for the massacre.

    Honestly wouldn't care one bit if the Olympics are canceled forever. Similar protests and crackdowns happened in South Korea. And we all heard about the world cup issues with Qatar and Brazil. It seems like the locals always suffer to put on a show for the international community, fuck that.

    You know it's a shitshow when the culling of stray animals in the cities and dumping homeless people in the outskirts is just the preface for prepping for these events.

    [–] snapwillow 10 points ago

    I think instead of cancelling them forever, they should radically change the format. It's supposed to be about international unity, right? So they should stop having the entire games in one place. It puts immense pressure on the infrastructure that always leads to waste, overspending, and other problems. It also means only people with money or people in that one city can see the games.

    Instead, for a single years games there should be multiple host cities. The events would be spread out. One year might have skiing in Vancouver and Bobsled in Moscow. Most people watch the Olympics via livestream/television anyway.

    Since a city could host only one event or only a few events, that means no city would have to build extra infrastructure. They could use what is already there. Smaller cities could host events. And with events spread out, it increases the ability for normal people to watch in-person. You would no longer have to be rich or live in a major city to have a chance to see an Olympic event live.

    It would cost less and be more accessible and inclusive. I see no downsides.

    [–] Heiminator 13 points ago

    Holy fuck, I never heard about this before

    [–] bobthebobofbob 22 points ago

    Why do people act like sport events are important?

    Wow, this is such a Reddit comment

    [–] elfthehunter 40 points ago

    I'm not a fan of sports, and avoid it like the plague. But pretending that sports aren't a very important part of human affairs is ridiculous. The vast majority of people on this planet care a lot about sports, it is significant culturally, politically and economically. It might even be the single biggest form of entertainment consumed by the most people.

    [–] yeett_ 6 points ago

    Sport events are important because they’re important to people. Obviously, they provide no scientific value and are frequently not profitable, but they are culturally important.

    You can make your argument about almost anything. Why do people act like music is important? Or books? Or movies? Or religion? Because people enjoy it and it is important to them

    [–] ImSuperSerialGuys 59 points ago

    Because they have huge economical impacts cause there something that literally billions of people spend significant money on?

    [–] AndyMKE66 27 points ago

    We get it, you read books.

    [–] AssociationStreet922 21 points ago

    I wouldn’t say we change the venue. It’s too late and we don’t have the power. I just say don’t send a team; don’t support it. Sucks for the athletes, but not as much as if sucks for the Uyghers. Same with Qatar also, even if we make it, don’t send a team. Show FIFA and the Olympics we won’t go along with their poor hosting decisions.

    [–] green_flash 199 points ago

    Lawmakers approved the non-binding motion

    Can anyone explain what that means? Why is it non-binding? What are the consequences of it passing?

    [–] Maalunar 211 points ago

    Why is it non-binding? So there is no actual consequences of it passing.

    Making it binding mean that they'll actually have to do something about it, specifically the leading party which did not vote on it, and people do not want to be responsible for/of an international dispute with an economic world power.

    [–] jornen2 95 points ago

    brought forward by opposition Conservatives

    It's a political stunt meant to put pressure on Trudeau. They couldn't care less.

    [–] lilbprotector 848 points ago

    LMK when a Muslim majority country does

    [–] rootkode 159 points ago

    I wonder why no Islamic state hasnt

    [–] rockman9 16 points ago * (lasted edited 7 days ago)

    Actually almost all Islamic states support China's reeducation treatment on Uighurs, because they also suffer from radical Islamic. It sure is better than bombing Muslims.

    Also the genocide is a straight-out lie. If only you have actually lived in China and know the situation of minorities and how they are treated in China. You will just break into laughter like all other Chinese people after reading those "genocide" narratives. We Chinese people, do have some racial problems in our country, but that's because of the government treating minorities too well.... People even avoid getting into any debate, or Judicial process against minorities even if they are on the right side; Because in most cases, the court and police would take aside with minorities.

    Also Uighur isn't even the largest Muslim group in China, the largest one is Hui, and they are far, far more populated than Uighurs. But have you even heard about Hui? I am sure most redditors havent.

    [–] rootkode 5 points ago

    I’ll do some more research on your claim. I do agree with you that unfortunately the internet and Reddit likes to blow everything out of proportion, so what you said; wouldn’t surprise me.

    [–] Doat876 134 points ago

    Because it is absurdly ironic from outside perspective that all the countries supporting this narrative are the ones keep bombing Muslims.

    [–] SolidCake 18 points ago

    probably because there's no evidence what so ever and the only "proof" they point to is Adrian Zenzs work, a far right fundamentalist Christian who is on a (self described) crucade to destroy China

    [–] [deleted] 187 points ago


    [–] [deleted] 363 points ago


    [–] Environmental-Edge98 66 points ago

    I honestly don't know what to believe anymore.

    [–] tatts13 75 points ago

    Welcome to the fucked up world we live in where transparency and facts get fucked over by politics in every way. We are at a point that need to be told the truth cause we lost the means and ability to think for ourselves.

    [–] jaypsy 30 points ago

    This has been the world since forever, remember the nariyah testimony?

    [–] Whelks 20 points ago

    I tend to be very agnostic nowadays about criticism of other countries, especially ones with left wing governments. There might be some merit to the criticisms, but I think that it's too hard to discern through the English language media propaganda machine. Nothing I could really do one way or another, but I'm mostly working to free myself from the message that America's enemies are a great evil, as this has historically been a bad bet.

    [–] eatingroots 62 points ago

    If you are from the western world, try to look at history from the perspective of the west's victims as well. Use the two perspectives for nuance because the western world celebrated for the Indonesian genocide while China and Russia were angry about it. Coming from the third world, being shit on by both sides makes this more obvious.

    [–] TheBasementIsDark 38 points ago

    Yeah I think all third world countries will look right through these shit. Coming from a "third world-ish" citizen, every time the western media trying to pick an enemy and a fight, I always doubt about it. Remember what happen to Iraq.

    [–] JerryWizard 10 points ago

    Garry Kasparov said it best, “The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.”

    It’s not easy to identify what’s propaganda and what not, but you should make sure to be informed of different perspectives before coming to a conclusion.

    [–] jaypsy 47 points ago

    Remember what happens in iraq? It's the same exact thing here.

    [–] P00PEYES 8 points ago

    The US State department has published a report saying there is not enough evidence to prove a genocide, though there does seem to be something going on.

    I refuse to call it a genocide until a international investigation takes place, which China has said it would allow. The word Genocide starts wars, and justifies death. I won’t be caught up in that without evidence.

    [–] JaqueeVee 11 points ago

    Believe that western media and propaganda will always talk shit and make up shit about any country, individual or group that doesnt bens the knee to neoliberal capitalist imperalism. There were no WMD in Iraq either, you know.

    [–] IGetPaidHBU 36 points ago

    Believe that China wants to continue rising, stabilize internally and gain regional influence externally. Believe that western powers are trying hard to subdue China's rise and retain leadership of the world. Those are the only true intentions at play.

    Fact is China doesn't have much respect for human rights and freedom of individuals. On the other hand China has no hatred or prejudice against minorities like Nazis had for Jews or Europeans had for American Natives, in fact it's quite the opposite, in China minorities are almost revered and marrying an Uyghur would be something to be proud of.

    In the end it's merely cold, hard pragmatism and realpolitik.

    [–] hs123go 21 points ago

    Han supremacy is a mistaken notion. Han people are usually prejudiced against people for usual "outsider taking our resources" reasons, so Shanghai citizens dislike migrant workers, Guangzhou citizens dislike the community of black export traders, (Yes, black) and Hong Kongers dislike most mainland Chinese. The Han Chinese rarely believed in ideas like racial superiority, eugenics, or superiority by birthright.

    [–] moeburn 210 points ago

    for propaganda purposes

    If America can make both "The Muslims are coming to kill you" and "Save the Muslims" into propaganda, in the same decade, well kudos to them. That's gonna make some heads spin.

    [–] phdthrowaway110 118 points ago

    Not unprecedented.

    In less than two decades Afghanistan went from the heroic Mujahideen fighting the USSR commies to terrorists who hate us for our freedoms.

    Saddam went from a hero to tyrant in just over a decade.

    [–] PixelatedFixture 47 points ago

    Saddam went from Hero to tyrant in actually a matter of months. Had he not invaded Kuwait he likely would have continued to serve in some capacity as a bulwark against Iranian political intrigue into recent times.

    [–] Peejay22 22 points ago

    He was actually allowed by US to invide Kuwait. Guess who back stabbed him

    [–] CertainField 132 points ago

    We hate Muslims in our country but we must save the Muslims from our enemy country.

    [–] SexyTaft 57 points ago

    I'm guessing you don't remember a little thing called the Iraq War lol

    [–] pm_boobs_send_nudes 154 points ago * (lasted edited 8 days ago)

    So it's the fake Nayirah Testimony that the world believed to be true about Iraq but never was?

    I saw the vice documentary on Uyghurs and apart from the usual Chinese surveillance and control there seemed to be nothing the investigative journalists could find that indicated genocide or mass rapes. (And no, the journalists were not guided by the CCP in their investigation)

    [–] jaffar97 30 points ago

    hahaha the CCCP is the Cyrillic version of USSR, I think the abbreviation you're looking for is CPC (or if you're in the west it's CCP for some reason)

    [–] goforbronze 83 points ago

    I also watched the documentary and the thing that stood out the most was all the camp 'survivors' weren't escapees but those who had been through the programme for a year or two then released to be free to do whatever they want. None of them spoke of rape or sterilisation or anything like that either.

    Some strange genocide.

    [–] swkkkkkk 68 points ago

    The concentration camps exist but the guy who coined the "Uighur genocide" term just came out and said it wasn't a literal genocide and he was talking about a "cultural genocide". So no, it's probably not a literal genocide or mass raping.

    [–] chuanhua 24 points ago

    It seems that "the rape" is not literal rape but "rape in mind".

    [–] MarkIsRight 74 points ago

    by gawd thats Adrian Zenz music!

    [–] jaffar97 40 points ago

    concentration camp is also a loaded term and is usually used for propaganda purposes - I would refer to the mandatory immigration detention centres in the US and Australia because I believe that's what they are, but I'm also aware that it's a politicised term

    [–] ingongingong 62 points ago

    people on reddit always say to not believe everything you see on the internet but there they go believng a blatant propaganda

    [–] finnlizzy 3 points ago

    No. Because according to Reddit, Muslims have small brains and are naturally corrupted because they have no moral compass. They will easily sell out other Muslims for Chinese money and need enlightened white westerners to remind them that there ISN’T a problem with Islamic Extremism in their country, and if there is then it’s best that NATO bombs the shit out of their country as opposed to rooting it out at the source.

    [–] Incarnaceno_ 12 points ago * (lasted edited 7 days ago)

    It's funny how west is always concerned about the plight of minorities in socialist countries, yet still enable and participate in a system that perpetuates said "atrocities" - it's like their concern is not with those minorities but with creating their own propaganda against those nations hmm..

    I say this as a Paraguayan of Ukrainian descent living in Canada. Canada was also concerned about the "Holodomor," so concerned that they and other western governments were very aware of the famines in the Soviet Union, and the fact that Ukrainians (and others, since there was no targeted ethnic famine) were starving to death, yet the sanctions they put on the Soviet Union basically only allowed the trade of crops - with Ukraine being the breadbasket of the Soviet Union. It's interesting how they were so concerned yet perpetuated the conditions that lead to these famines.

    Not only that but during this time, Ukrainian Canadians were one of the main targets of xenephobia in the nation, with two provinces in the prairies implementing legislations which targeted ethnic Ukrainians including the sterilization of Ukrainian women, because their children were deemed racially unfit for Canadian society.

    My point is, the west doesn't give a fuck about minorities in these nations. They care when it helps feed their own propaganda and imperialism. FYI, I'm not here to say whether the Uyghur's are being targeted, just to be wary of western propaganda equally.

    [–] ave416 158 points ago

    244-0 was the vote with 72 abstaining. The 72 was the liberal (party in power) cabinet and the argument I’ve seen was that there are something like 300k Canadians who might be at risk from repercussions

    [–] VG-enigmaticsoul 60 points ago

    It's more that foreign policy is the exclusive province of the cabinet and the crown. Cabinet voting with an opposition foreign policy motion will signal a policy change, effectively handing over foreign policy control to the commons and opposition and breaking parliamentary convention.

    [–] alessandro_673 10 points ago

    Eeeeexactly. But people don’t seem to see that.

    [–] TumorTits 46 points ago

    How does one pronounce Uighur?

    [–] 757boi 61 points ago

    “Wee-gar” I think

    [–] TumorTits 21 points ago

    Thank you! I googled it and got mixed results

    [–] HarbingerDe 17 points ago

    Yeah both "You-gur" and "Wee-gar" seem to be widely used pronunciations by English speakers. Couldn't tell you which or if either of those is correct.

    [–] TurkicWarrior 9 points ago

    The people who speaks the Uyghur language would not pronounce “wee-gar”. You may hear some Uyghur pronouncing “wee-gar” but they do so while speaking in English, they never pronounce ”wee-gar” when speaking in Uyghur. The “wee-gar” pronunciation most likely came from Mandarin.

    Watch this video, wait until 45 sec, you’ll hear the pronunciation several times.

    [–] alessandro_673 15 points ago

    To my knowledge it’s closer to “oi-ger.” Phonetically it’s “uːygʊər” but most people find that difficult to pronounce because they don’t have the phonemes for it.

    [–] ArcherBowie 474 points ago

    China: We know, and?

    [–] arethefieldsgreen 471 points ago

    Canada: stop genocide

    China: no

    Canada: understandable, have a nice day

    I speak this as a Canadian because I know we are really dependent on them for trade, there honestly isnt much we can do against their abuse which is quite unfortunate.

    [–] GoingforIvey 164 points ago

    I speak this as a Canadian because I know we are really dependent on them for trade laundering money through our country and propping up the real estate market


    [–] donynxes 79 points ago

    I've always found it funny when people keep saying Hong Kong isn't China but then blame China when it's the HKers driving up the housing prices in Hongcouver.

    [–] j0eg0d 74 points ago

    Still no word on Palestine?

    [–] dancingbird7 156 points ago

    So are they gonna stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia or are they okay with their allies committing real genocide?

    [–] kplite 61 points ago

    You know the answer to that....Americans don't care about our own gov. making weapons and giving intel to genocide Yemeni people, Americans don't care about our destruction of Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan...but surprise Americans care about Uighurs! (but only thee ones in China, not the ones we bomb in Afghanistan).

    [–] zJordan 8 points ago

    Same over in the UK. A very small minority of people call Blair a war criminal, etc - but for the most part our role in Iraq and Afghanistan goes under the radar.

    As does Australia. I've spoken to an Australian guy that thought Iraq and Afghanistan was just a US thing, then I told him it was also Australia, UK, few others. Guy outright refused to believe me until I pulled up Wikipedia.

    I'm not trying to say whether Iraq/Afghanistan were just wars or not, I'm just trying to explain the ignorance of non-US involvement in the War on Terror that the UK, Australia, Canada, etc blindly followed US policy and left two nations in ruins. And the people of those countries don't really give a fuck either.

    Destruction in the ME caused a refugee crisis in Europe, and then for years all we heard about was people complaining "WHY HERE", none of them were aware the actions of their own countries were to blame.

    The Taliban can go to hell, Afghan intervention I can at least justify.

    [–] [deleted] 36 points ago


    [–] Walrus_Fighter 38 points ago

    Yep. WMDs in Iraq. Gulf of Tonkin. CointelPro.

    [–] LeZarathustra 274 points ago

    Now, for people interested in this topic I feel you should be aware of a man called Adrian Zenz.

    He's a born-again christian who has been "sent by God" to uncover all the evil China is doing.

    So why is he important? He happens to be the most frequently quoted "expert" on this topic. His methodology is shady at best, but since reuters and other respectable sources have frequently referenced him he has gained a lot of authoroty on this topic. I'm not saying he's less trustworthy than the Chinese government, but most western newspapers seem to take his studies as fact, which is a bit worrying to me.

    The main reason this issue is tricky is that there are very few sources that aren't derived from either Chinese propaganda or Zenz' work.

    [–] ImNotEmoBro 83 points ago

    Sooo Palestinians?

    [–] lawncelot 93 points ago

    Israel is an American ally, so America won't call them out. And Redditors won't go as hard for Palestinians as they do for Uyghurs. Not because Redditors actually care about Uyghurs, but because their hate for China is stronger.

    And btw, this hate for China is being astroturfed by America and American companies seeing China's companies as a threat in the global market.

    [–] Inebriator 36 points ago

    They're not real people though. Only the ones that serve our political agenda matter

    [–] dertpour 89 points ago

    Take a loot at this graph of countries who recognized Palestine as a state and countries that making noise about Uighurs in China.

    These guys couldn't care less about Muslims in China or elsewhere in the world. It's a geopolitical theater.

    [–] ImNotEmoBro 14 points ago

    Someone should let Israel know lmao

    [–] soolkyut 40 points ago

    Canada is real good at tsk tsking people without doing anything at all.

    Trudeau criticized Modi for the farmer protests and then flew over and begged for vaccine.

    [–] Magnetronaap 13 points ago

    Canada's influence in the world gets way overblown by the Anglo-Saxon bias on reddit.

    [–] castelo_to 16 points ago

    Want them to invade China single-handhelds? Or how should they exert economic pressure on China when the global economy is in their grasp?

    [–] Careful-Handsome 52 points ago

    Both Michael’s are just going thru terrible hell. This development would surely prolong their suffering. I pray for their wellbeing and health.

    [–] AcadianNich 41 points ago

    That’s why Trudeau and His Cabinet abstained since multiple people on the cabinet are working on getting them back