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    1978manx

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    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 1 points ago in venezuela

    Agreed — the consensus I’m seeing from multiple sources is that the majority of Venezuelans want Maduro gone, want free and fair elections, and oppose US intervention to remove the current govt.

    I’m 100% copacetic with all that — the sovereignty of Venezuela is critical to the health of South America.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 1 points ago in venezuela

    I appreciate your consideration. Truly what I hope is the best for all people. Life is such a tragedy.

    I’d be thrilled to have a discourse with you but anything I say or question seems to incite contempt and stall conversation.

    I came here to honestly seek another perspective.

    My understanding is that Maduro is accepting aid, just not from USAID, which seems reasonable based on the fact the US refuses to dialogue with Maduro and that Abrams stated clearly that, from a US perspective, Maduro would either be exiled or be killed — but that there was no future for him in Venezuela. Both of those aren’t rumors, I watched the newscasts with my own eyes.

    The aid seems suspect and a canard, when the aid = $20 million, but US sanctions = $30 million PER DAY.

    The politics seem suspect — I’m taking from as many sources as possible. I’m also abundantly familiar with the US track record, and it’s not possible to point to a CIA backed coup that’s worked out well.

    None of this makes me pro-Maduro — the stories of corruption are atrocious. It’s the motivations of the US and the heinous disregard that’s been shown in the past in these situations.

    More than anything, I hope for Venezuela to retain its sovereignty and the will of the people is realized.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 1 points ago in venezuela

    So you’re threatening me?

    Maybe if this a sub for Venezuelans then you should post that in the rules.

    That said — the bullshit I’ve dealt in this sub ensures I won’t waste my time here. And “organizing” is a great euphemism for “circle jerk.”

    I came seeking wisdom — I received caustic, entitled whining.

    I’ve written my congressperson — but I’m one of many who will do anything in my power to dissuade my country from sponsoring a coup in Venezuela.

    My short experience here has only convinced me of the righteousness of my cause, and the corruption of the right-wing in Venezuela.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 0 points ago in venezuela

    The only thing I’ve put forth is that I do not support US-intervention in Venezuela.

    I’ve acknowledged the Maduro regime’s issues, and have been clear the Venezuelan people should determine their own destiny.

    I’m drawing conclusions based on the best, most diverse information available.

    I’m on a social-media site hosted by an American company, frequented primarily by Americans — addressing the topic of American intervention in Venezuela.

    This issue VERY much concerns Americans, and as long as my government t is involved I’ll voice my opinion, especially when the state is acting contrary to the interests of my people.

    To pretend Venezuelans haven’t been courting Washington, and vice versa, is disingenuous.

    And regardless — your own logic is faulty. You’re asking for US involvement based on the Monroe Doctrine. That accepts the disposition of South America very much American business, so you can’t have it both ways.

    You’re not debating a 22 yo college student — if you want to be dismissive and snarky, have it, but maintain enough integrity that you don’t contradict yourself.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -1 points ago in venezuela

    I don’t have a boss. And it’s entitled as hell to presume to tell me to leave my nation because I don’t want my taxes, my brothers-in-arms, and my government involved with YOUR problems.

    I know you don’t give a flip about the US, except for what you can squeeze out of us for your own benefit.

    How about YOU stay in Venezuela, get the fuck out of my nation’s capital, and stop licking the boots of the men you hope will be your saviors.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 0 points ago in venezuela

    Absolutely and I respect that — I came in this sub to get some perspective and I’ve been non-stop attacked.

    The background is appreciated.

    I’d like to just clarify — for some reason that escapes me, Venezuelans on here seem to come from a very self-righteous perspective, as if the fact they’re from Venezuela and I’m from the US, negates all my arguments.

    I appreciate that you didn’t do that — and if I mischaracterized you I apologize.

    I’ve tried to be civil and I realize you’re looking at one comment, but I dropped in to discuss this and have gotten a bunch of hate, so yours is one of many responses. I get a bit lost, as I end up repeating the same points over and over, but it’s tough to tell who sees what, especially since I’m on mobile.

    Anyway — I’m certain a Venezuelan can offer me great perspective and I’m very honestly thrilled to get it. That’s why I came and I was mostly hear to listen.

    It’s been non-stop hatred and labeling — I’m not whining, but it gets tough to engage meaningfully when I’m told not wanting my sons involved in another illegal invasion is “trolling.”

    Please don’t discount the fact I’m an American and also have a perspective on this that a Venezuelan lacks.

    Both our opinions are still valid — and my position doesn’t equate to pro-Maduro, or minimize the mess and corruption currently ongoing with Venezuela’s government, nor should it imply that my heart doesn’t go out to anyone in the world suffering.

    I appreciate you taking time to respond. I’ll be more measured in my response. I was honestly about to hit “unsubscribe” and move on because of the hostility.

    But it sounds like you could offer an incredible insight I’d sincerely love to hear it.

    Most of what’s being piped over American airways is propaganda & rhetoric — it reminds me very much of the lead up to Iraq — when, as a war-time vet, I was called unpatriotic, a supporter of Saddam Hussein, and much worse.

    None of that was true, and it gives me satisfaction that over a million innocent Iraqis are dead, 70,000 of my brothers-in-arms are dead or seriously injured, and my nation is drinking blindly into insolvency.

    I fear for your nation as much as I fear for mine — it does not mean I’m a pacifist, pro-Maduro, or blind to the corruption in the present government.

    It just means I’ve seen this play out many times and I am incredibly cynical, especially with the appointment of Elliot Abrams, who is the personification of corporate evil.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 1 points ago in MapPorn

    That you use the cheapest and laziest rhetorical trick to try to feign “victory” is laughable.

    Not wanting my nation involved in yet another illegal invasion doesn’t equal support for Maduro — or bizarrely, for the USSR?!?

    But, same bullshit was EXACTLY what I heard when I protested the Iraq war.

    How’s that work out?

    Oh that’s right, you dont give a fuck — you don’t live in the US and you don’t live in Iraq, so who cares?

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -1 points ago in venezuela

    My thesis is the US has been meddling in Venezuela for 20 years and beats plenty of responsibility for the dire conditions.

    I’ve expressed my points pretty exhaustively through this whole troll onslaught — not calling you a troll, but I’ve been non-stop trolled simply for having a different opinion.

    If I’d realized this was just an echo chamber I’d have just passed it by — definitely unsubscribing as very very few have the inclination or ability to exchange in sincere discourse.

    It’s literally like going to a Fox News panel — for every one intelligent person, there’s five people yelling “socialist!” or equating my stance to supporting the Maduro regime.

    I’m American — I’m weary and my nation is weary. We need to stay out of Venezuela. The operations ongoing now are a barely cloaked coup attempt — Guiado is a CIA asset.

    Yes, everyone’s head will explode, but his background is pretty clear, c’mon. If someone can’t acknowledge the obvious, then sincere discourse is impossible.

    Either way, the very nature of civil life in my country is being destroyed by the unleashing of the dogs of war after 9/11. Personal liberty has bern eroded, infrastructure is a joke, and more and more Americans fall into poverty each day.

    This is the repeat of a playbook that extends back 70 years, to the CIA coup in Iran in the 1950s. A few will benefit, most will not — that is the case for both nations.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 1 points ago in MapPorn

    You’re not even here, and you’re going to tell a natural-born citizen to get out of their own country?!?

    I embrace immigration with open arms — my grandparents are immigrants from Russia.

    Your arrogance is forgiven. You have a loud mouth for someone who is not even a citizen of the country you’re advocating to engage in yet another illegal invasion.

    You have not experienced the erosion of civil liberties over the past 20 years of constant war.

    The founding fathers knew well the dangers of “emergencies” and war and made them difficult to wage.

    You don’t give a fuck if the US citizens lose more and more personal liberty everyday. You can’t even conceive it.

    Yet, you have the conceit to lecture a citizen watching his nation devolve into a totalitarian state to get out of his own country if he doesn’t like it.

    Yeah — you’re a real freedom-lover, dude.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -1 points ago in venezuela

    I appreciate the cogent response.

    The history of the US efforts to oust the socialist regime in Venezuela is detailed extensively by the US government.

    What you’re doing in the rest of your response is literally flying down a slippery slope of assumptions, equating my opposition to US meddling in the sovereignty of Venezuela to support of Maduro.

    The two positions are not the same — and equating them is the oldest rhetorical trick in the book, and the exact same playbook used during the illegal 2003 invasion of Iraq.

    I am aware it’s an easy technique to use, allows you to bristle self-righteously at my ignorance and contempt for the innocent victims of the monstrous Maduro regime — but it’s a false outrage.

    The only reason the US is preparing to subjugate Venezuela is because of oil. It’s not complicated and has even been clearly enunciated by several American architects, ranging from John Bolton to Donald Trump.

    The corruption of Maduro’s regime is well-documented, and I imagine the scenes you describe must be as enraging as it is for Americans to listen to the steady drone of propaganda for yet another invasion of a sovereign nation for yet more oil at great risk to what little remains of my nation’s moral authority, as well as to great cost for ordinary Americans in terms of treasure and yet a more complete erosion of our individual liberties.

    The founding fathers of the US knew well that ears & emergencies are anathema to citizens’s rights, and ours have suffered greatly over the past 20 years.

    My nation and my taxes have no obligation to give you a “socialist utopia,” a “oligarch’s dream,” or any other type of government whatsoever.

    I’ve seen what 50 years of imperialism has wrought for America, and it’s not benefitted the average citizens in either the US or the nations we subjugate.

    My heart goes out to the people of Venezuela — if you’re part of the capitalist class then I understand the desire for war, as you were toppled by the people of Venezuela, who benefitted on a whole from the change, with 25% reduction in poverty from 2000 to 2012, expansion of citizen control in govt., and reductions in health metrics such as infant mortality, across the board.

    Oh, these figures are reported by the CIA, so I doubt they’re a pro-Maduro front.

    In any case, this is a matter of my country engaging in the illegal overthrow of another nation — the intentional sabotage of the poor of Venezuela to foment rebellion, and a continuation of the permanent state of war that threatens the very institutions of my country.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 1 points ago * (lasted edited a day ago) in venezuela

    YOU posted a very strong opinion on an interactive social media site dedicated solely to discussion.

    YOU posted an opinion that essentially trolls anyone with an opposing viewpoint, then claim you’re “fed-up with people trying to school you about your country?!?”

    Um, Reddit is an American company, with primarily American users, and you’re advocating for a foreign entanglement for MY nation, that MY children could fight in, paid for by MY taxes — but I don’t have a right to disagree with you?

    Wow.

    Certainly am open to the possibility I’m wrong, but not a single bit of information was provided to even attempt to sway me. Just nastiness.

    I asked your economic status because those with resources will fare very well if the US coup is executed.

    If you are in that demographic I would not blame you a bit for supporting it — it wasn’t meant as an insult. I don’t believe it will help the majority of Venezuelans — but it will certainly help some, and if you’re in that group I’m not going to argue you should go against your own interests.

    I do not blame you a bit for advocating for your view.

    But to rudely dismiss anyone who disagrees without countering their thesis is the very definition of an echo-chamber. Especially when posters flock me, and not a single one has anything constructive to add to the conversation.

    I can debate this factually all day — I came here to test the integrity of my viewpoint, not to get into a pissing match.

    You act like I interrupted your dinner to debate you — when YOU put up the post. Do you know how Reddit works? Typically that means you’re open to reasoned debate.

    With the exception of ONE user, all I’ve gotten is ad hominem attacks and NO rebuttals.

    I don’t understand why you’d publish the OP if you weren’t prepared to defend it without going into histrionics.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 0 points ago in venezuela

    What a joke — I’ve cross checked all my information, and my mind is open.

    The demographics of those supporting the US intervention is real, and if you’re incapable of acknowledging that the US has been agitating for regime-change in Venezuela for 20 years then you’re being spoon-fed propaganda.

    That’s called “economic warfare,” and if you think that the most powerful nation in the world focusing on a country economically doesn’t constitute war, then you’re cross-wise with actual US strategic doctrine.

    You’ve no idea my sources — you’re spouting insults and labels — not a single fact to dispute anything.

    That’s not my opinion it’s just true.

    All you can do is throw up a bunch of nonsense straw men of why I’m not entitled to an opinion ... and label me as ‘this or that’ — because anyone who disagrees w YOU must fit in this shitty little label you use.

    Whatever — you rant with typical rhetorical techniques. Can’t dispute facts so you’ll attack the person. Weak sauce.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx 1 points ago in venezuela

    “Educated” is very simple to discern — look at the single commenter on this thread who was capable of having a factual discourse with me. Amazing!! Not a single insult, or shitty label or anything but a free exchange of views..

    See, it’s easy to dispute a thesis with an educated person because they will stick to the issues.

    Drones’s intellect only goes as far as what they’ve been fed, so any dissonance is quickly shouted down.

    Like, you talk about people “dying,” while completely overlooking the toll of two decades of economic warfare by the United States.

    I don’t really care if people agree with me — thought this was a discussion thread, not a circle-jerk — but for as snide as everyone was about “trolls,” it’s ironic only one person was able to have a rational discussion.

    Even more ludicrous is that whether you agree or disagree, it’s simply disingenuous to imply my opinion is not well-thought out.

    I guess this nonsense is what passes for discourse these days. Talk about uneducated.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 1 points ago in MapPorn

    Didn’t you say you were an immigrant?!?

    Apparently you didn’t learn a fucking thing about this iconic right Americans have called FREE SPEECH.

    If that bothers you, it’s prob best to GTFO now.

    It’s bad form to wash up on my shores, plead for my protection, and then when you’re finally safe & secure, you have the utter nerve to tell a goddamn war-time veteran to leave his birth-nation because he disagrees with your ill-formed opinion.

    Apparently you were forced to lick boots in your mother country, and now you think you’ll bring a bit of that here — think again, comrade.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -1 points ago in venezuela

    What opinion am I disagreeing with?

    Did you read your own comment? Looks like plenty.

    Don’t try to come here and convince ...

    You want to claim “echo-chambers,” when you post your one-sided opinion on a public forum and tell ME to go away!!?!!

    You just want to spread propaganda without anyone muddling it up with inconvenient facts.

    Guess what — being Venezuelan doesn’t give you a trump card in this debate.

    You’re coming to MY country, begging for help to prop up a crony-capitalist system — so no, you don’t get to tell me to go away.

    I’m a veteran — you’ve never risked your life for my nation or worn a flag on your shoulder 8,000 miles from home for the US — I have, and I’ve been on the sharp end of US foreign policy.

    I not only have a right to express my opinion — as an educated American, I have the DUTY.

    Take your tin-pot dictatorship mindset right back home — it’s exactly what you’re aiming for — oppress the poor so that the few with wealth can exploit the nation.

    You don’t get to suppress my free speech.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -1 points ago in venezuela

    We don’t really have any say in what goes on with our government, just to clarify. The current president lost by 3 million votes, and more people abstained than voted, due to the lack of any candidates who actually represent their interests.

    I feel like your mind is made up. I hope it will not transpire, but just like Kavanaugh getting appointed to SCOTUS, heavy odds are it will happen even if the majority of Americans oppose it.

    If that’s the case, just observe. Maybe the next war — and there will be a next war within a few years — you’ll be able to look back and my position will make sense.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 1 points ago in MapPorn

    All you can muster is accusations of socialist! socialist!. If you lack the energy or ability to sincerely engage, why bother??

    You rant about all the “tankies” on Reddit, but I enunciated facts, and all you can do is bluster out the same brain-dead response that you hear on Fox News.

    I’m anti-oligarchy and anti-totalitarian government — it’s clear you couldn’t process my actual idealogical view, as apparently you separate the world into “agrees w your side,” and “socialists/communists.”

    Intellectually WEAK.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -3 points ago in venezuela

    You got me. I’m a one-percenter ...

    If not, then I’m afraid you’re not paying attention to the US record in South America.

    Just because I disagree with your opinion — which you posted on a social media platform designed to elicit feedback — doesn’t make me evil or ignorant.

    Nor does it mean I deserve to be treated like a dick for having a different opinion.

    It just means I’ve studied the situation and have reached a different conclusion.

    If you live in Venezuela, that gives you a unique insight — just like living in the US and working in the federal govt for two decades gives me a unique insight into America’s foreign policy objectives.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 1 points ago in MapPorn

    Ha ha — typical, gotta rush to label someone with a different opinion.

    Can’t dispute anything with facts, so I must be a <insert label here>.

    I’ve been around the world and I’ve seen plenty. But please, veer entirely off topic and refer to the iron-curtain, ‘cause that literally has dick to do with the point of the debate.

    If you’re actually an immigrant, maybe you just don’t understand the aims of US foreign policy.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -3 points ago in venezuela

    I do talk to Venezuelans — my mind is absolutely open.

    Just because I disagree with an opinion doesn’t mean I don’t have intellectual rigor.

    I appreciate your civility — too often any disagreement leads immediately to labeling and hatefulness.

    My field is rhetoric and mass communications, and there is a concerted propaganda war being executed right now that rivals the one for the lead-up to the 2003 run-up to the invasion of Iraq.

    I agree there is a lot of work going on from both sides — but the US machine is in full-gear once again, and one thing that is certain — if history is any guide — if the US is successful, the ordinary people of Venezuela will suffer much worse in the aftermath.

    This has held true for every single American intervention for half-a-century. The rhetoric is beautiful, but the reality is ugly. Libya went from having ZERO homelessness, to literally having slave markets in the public square.

    Surely I don’t need to enunciate the examples?

    I’m open to reading other perspectives — the reality is that in the US, it’s an effort to get ANY other perspective than pro-US intervention. It’s almost like all of our media and political class have been bought and sold by the corporate interests who always stand to benefit from these actions.

    Not wanting a US-backed coup is not “pro-Maduro,” although that is the most common rebuttal — which is just a rhetorical technique. Like opposing the Iraq war was “Pro-Saddam Hussein.”

    Of course the food and medicine isn’t fake — but the US has been squeezing Venezuela for DECADES, and the politicians are quite clear that poor people are the target of the sanctions, and that US companies will enjoy a huge economic boon if the US intervenes.

    The nation is accepting aid, just not from a country whose stated goal is regime-change.

    Not to mention, the US aid package is $20 million —US sanctions cost Venezuela $30 million PER DAY.

    I’m not an ideologue — the reality is human interest is one of the biggest reasons I’m opposed to US meddling in Venezuela. I’m not happy what the govt has been doing in my name, and the legacy it leaves behind.

    I absolutely understand the “case” and I know people are sincere. Anyone in Venezuela who isn’t a member of the wealthy class will be bitterly disappointed to find out what the US means by assistance and democracy.

    After all, where are those free elections in Iraq we were so concerned about?

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -3 points ago in venezuela

    You don’t need to know that.

    Actually I already know it, if you’re actually from Venezuela — the supporters of US intervention come in one color and one economic class.

    Go back to your echo chamber.

    You got yourself quite a little echo chamber going on in here ... if you’re afraid of a dose of reality, then don’t post propaganda.

    [–] Chicago average individual income by census tract, 1970 and 2017. [1190x1080] 1978manx 0 points ago in MapPorn

    Cretin??

    That’s rich coming from a brainwashed moron who gets his opinions served in bite-size pieces from corporate-sponsored media.

    Your response is even programmed — I’m must a COMMUNIST because I dare speak against yet another unconstitutional war, designed by a convicted war criminal who only escaped prison because of a presidential pardon.

    How f’n UNAMERICAN of me!!

    Another war that violates international law and further weakens the US people, while enriching the war-profiteers.

    Our infrastructure is crumbling, almost half the nation in poverty, and the longest war in the nation’s history still sputtering along 18 years later and no one remembers what we’re doing or how we’ll come home.

    But yeah — I must be a pinko COMMIE to think more stupid military adventures are absolutely insane at this moment in history — much less to look at the human toll this non-stop warfare has cost every country the US has invaded in the 21st Century.

    Good call — weird how both parties are always 100% behind shit like this and tax cuts for the wealthy, isn’t it??

    Almost like the nation is run by a corporatocracy.

    [–] The US helping Venezuela is not ABOUT the US. 1978manx -4 points ago in venezuela

    Weird you say it’s something the Venezuelan people want, when polling shows 70-80% are against US intervention in their country.

    You talk about “organized trolls” — what a load of bullshit. You are presenting opinions as facts, despite the myriad of polls and in-country citizens and journalists attesting that the people emphatically DO NOT want US intervention.

    The 2018 election was certified by almost 300 independent observers, and Madura won by nearly 65%z

    Guaido did not run, and more than 80% of Venezuelans did not know who he was prior to him being anointed “president” by Mike Pence.

    If the measly $20 million in “aid” the US is aching to deliver is so vital, perhaps America would remove the economic sanctions that by conservative estimates are costing Venezuela $30 million PER DAY.

    This humanitarian crisis has been manufactured by the US, and just the fact the war-criminal Elliot Abrams has been called in should make it clear to anyone even slightly informed about US activities in South America.